Knicks · Can we stop acting like Phil is not looking out for the best interests of the Knicks? (page 3)
holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
Do tell? Is this going to be the re-run of Kidd, Sheed, etc. That was a short tem plan to the hilt. Nearly all of those guys went to pasture immediately and in the process we had a bare cupboard
I can also tell he was part of a 50 win team for 7 consecutive years...Amare and Chandler was coming off the books a year later..But who cares now..Phil has the con, it's his show...We beat the Nets featuring Jeremy Lin and Luis Scola backups and Phil is now a genius...OK...Well here's where we differ
I think Phil is a genius and trying and doing his best under the circumstances in a very competitive sport with lots of limitations (such as lack of draft picks). He hasn't been perfect, but I accept that
I also think Melo's game has not evolved since his Denver days, except for one brief glimpse last season which he seems to have now abandoned. He's a fantastic player but even in the 50 win seasons you're talking about they were a quick exit from the playoffs and his coach at the time (who has his own issues) doesn't speak well of him. And -- for what it's worth -- he had his best years when he had a smart point guard making the decisions instead of him (Billups).
You seem to think Phil is a dunce and Melo is the answer
What is our record since Phil has been here??..I said Melo, like Fisher before him, is the scapegoat not the answer...
It has not been good, but I don't think that proves your point.He has the difficult task of trying to balance a win-now desire with building a winning culture of system basketball, player drafting and development. He could have continued the trend of prior Knicks and surrounded Melo with the Kidds and Sheeds, and indeed his biggest failures are probably tied to his attempts to do so (Afflalo, Rose, Noah). So if he's worthy of criticism it's for not surrounding Melo with the right pieces. But I've asked this before and have heard nothing in response. Who would you have (could you have) surrounded him with, without the franchise digging yet another whole of no picks, space etc.?
Any guesses why all of Melo's "friends" decide to play elsewhere? Could it be because they fear they'll never touch the ball?
Phil has done enough to convince me he knows what a winning team and culture look like. His biggest issue is competing objectives of win-now and building a program
And to use your words, why isn't it the case that you're making Phil the scapegoat? Don't you think the players are more responsible for the performance and effort they put on the court, e.g., constant chucking of shots no matter how cold you are, tunnel vision when you have the ball, lack of effort on D. Is that Phil's fault, honestly?
I assume that most know my point of view from day one when Phil took the job..Phil undermines his coach by asking them to run the triangle..I said it would happen when Phil took the job..Fisher confirmed it a few days ago..Byron Scott said it was happening..It's happening with Hornacek...So when I see the exact thing happening I thought would happen because of Phil's meddling, who can I blame???Who is my "scapegoat"???
Phil coach selections is sub par..He only pick coaches who he can control...Fisher confirmed he wasn't ready for such a job...Charles Barkley said Hornacek was hired because he can be controlled..I posted the video...So even before we get the to bad trades and the team on the court, Phil is completely responsible...
Now we can get into philosophy about a win now team, like Melo shouldn't be the main work horse, etc, which escapes this coach for some reason...We need a legit bench to rest the starters...Melo should be the guy playing in spurts like LeBron allows Kyre to be the main guy or Duncan allowing Parker to be the main guy and taking over in spurts back in the day..That's where should be Melo is if we are trying to win now..Maybe that's why Rose is here...Can someone tell the coach or is he confused with Rambis, Phil's spy, breathing the triangle down his neck???..So before we unpack that bag, there are lots of pieces missing that is Phil's responsibility that I personally can see, even if many just want to ignore it...We can spend a day breaking down the issues of the team...
who were your coach choices?
I hope you don't say Kerr or Walton because they were Phil's too, and I know when he was talking kerr no one but one was publicly saying Kerr would kill it like he eventually did
Nalod wrote:holfresh... was Isiah a good GM? #perspectiveholfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
Do tell? Is this going to be the re-run of Kidd, Sheed, etc. That was a short tem plan to the hilt. Nearly all of those guys went to pasture immediately and in the process we had a bare cupboard
I can also tell he was part of a 50 win team for 7 consecutive years...Amare and Chandler was coming off the books a year later..But who cares now..Phil has the con, it's his show...We beat the Nets featuring Jeremy Lin and Luis Scola backups and Phil is now a genius...OK...Well here's where we differ
I think Phil is a genius and trying and doing his best under the circumstances in a very competitive sport with lots of limitations (such as lack of draft picks). He hasn't been perfect, but I accept that
I also think Melo's game has not evolved since his Denver days, except for one brief glimpse last season which he seems to have now abandoned. He's a fantastic player but even in the 50 win seasons you're talking about they were a quick exit from the playoffs and his coach at the time (who has his own issues) doesn't speak well of him. And -- for what it's worth -- he had his best years when he had a smart point guard making the decisions instead of him (Billups).
You seem to think Phil is a dunce and Melo is the answer
What is our record since Phil has been here??..I said Melo, like Fisher before him, is the scapegoat not the answer...
It has not been good, but I don't think that proves your point.He has the difficult task of trying to balance a win-now desire with building a winning culture of system basketball, player drafting and development. He could have continued the trend of prior Knicks and surrounded Melo with the Kidds and Sheeds, and indeed his biggest failures are probably tied to his attempts to do so (Afflalo, Rose, Noah). So if he's worthy of criticism it's for not surrounding Melo with the right pieces. But I've asked this before and have heard nothing in response. Who would you have (could you have) surrounded him with, without the franchise digging yet another whole of no picks, space etc.?
Any guesses why all of Melo's "friends" decide to play elsewhere? Could it be because they fear they'll never touch the ball?
Phil has done enough to convince me he knows what a winning team and culture look like. His biggest issue is competing objectives of win-now and building a program
And to use your words, why isn't it the case that you're making Phil the scapegoat? Don't you think the players are more responsible for the performance and effort they put on the court, e.g., constant chucking of shots no matter how cold you are, tunnel vision when you have the ball, lack of effort on D. Is that Phil's fault, honestly?
I assume that most know my point of view from day one when Phil took the job..Phil undermines his coach by asking them to run the triangle..I said it would happen when Phil took the job..Fisher confirmed it a few days ago..Byron Scott said it was happening..It's happening with Hornacek...So when I see the exact thing happening I thought would happen because of Phil's meddling, who can I blame???Who is my "scapegoat"???
Phil coach selections is sub par..He only pick coaches who he can control...Fisher confirmed he wasn't ready for such a job...Charles Barkley said Hornacek was hired because he can be controlled..I posted the video...So even before we get the to bad trades and the team on the court, Phil is completely responsible...
Now we can get into philosophy about a win now team, like Melo shouldn't be the main work horse, etc, which escapes this coach for some reason...We need a legit bench to rest the starters...Melo should be the guy playing in spurts like LeBron allows Kyre to be the main guy or Duncan allowing Parker to be the main guy and taking over in spurts back in the day..That's where should be Melo is if we are trying to win now..Maybe that's why Rose is here...Can someone tell the coach or is he confused with Rambis, Phil's spy, breathing the triangle down his neck???..So before we unpack that bag, there are lots of pieces missing that is Phil's responsibility that I personally can see, even if many just want to ignore it...We can spend a day breaking down the issues of the team...How does he undermine a coach with his triangle, when they were hired to run it?
If they don't, how does he hire a coach who "He can control", but who then deviates from the triangle?
So basically he hires guys he can control, but then can't? Twice?
Is it possible the triangle is a progressive situation?
Yes, PHil is responsible for all things. EVERYTHING! So is every other team president.
Melo should be the guy, and when you have Lebron and KLove next to you, you can alternate "surges". Your comparing the knicks to a team that has gone to two finals in two years.
Holl, I agree with a lot of what you say, but the fact is Melo does not function in that capcity because the team is not good enough around him.
Rambis is a spy? Please expand? Is he there to disrupt the progress? Snitch?
Phil hired Fish to do a job. He was not doing it.
Phil hired JH to do a job. My take is he is giving JH the leeway to do things his way, but he wants the triangle to be a part of it.
Phil has done a nice job rebuilding the young talent on the roster. He has not done a good job mixing in vets that translate into wins, but he has also not traded picks that hurt our future. But we also know you are biased there as well as you were very quiet last year until KP hit his rookie wall and you reappeared to let everyone know they were premature in harping on KP's greatness as we havent "seen" him play like a bigtime player.
You have an ax to grind. It shows in every post you make.
Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
Do tell? Is this going to be the re-run of Kidd, Sheed, etc. That was a short tem plan to the hilt. Nearly all of those guys went to pasture immediately and in the process we had a bare cupboard
I can also tell he was part of a 50 win team for 7 consecutive years...Amare and Chandler was coming off the books a year later..But who cares now..Phil has the con, it's his show...We beat the Nets featuring Jeremy Lin and Luis Scola backups and Phil is now a genius...OK...Well here's where we differ
I think Phil is a genius and trying and doing his best under the circumstances in a very competitive sport with lots of limitations (such as lack of draft picks). He hasn't been perfect, but I accept that
I also think Melo's game has not evolved since his Denver days, except for one brief glimpse last season which he seems to have now abandoned. He's a fantastic player but even in the 50 win seasons you're talking about they were a quick exit from the playoffs and his coach at the time (who has his own issues) doesn't speak well of him. And -- for what it's worth -- he had his best years when he had a smart point guard making the decisions instead of him (Billups).
You seem to think Phil is a dunce and Melo is the answer
What is our record since Phil has been here??..I said Melo, like Fisher before him, is the scapegoat not the answer...
It has not been good, but I don't think that proves your point.He has the difficult task of trying to balance a win-now desire with building a winning culture of system basketball, player drafting and development. He could have continued the trend of prior Knicks and surrounded Melo with the Kidds and Sheeds, and indeed his biggest failures are probably tied to his attempts to do so (Afflalo, Rose, Noah). So if he's worthy of criticism it's for not surrounding Melo with the right pieces. But I've asked this before and have heard nothing in response. Who would you have (could you have) surrounded him with, without the franchise digging yet another whole of no picks, space etc.?
Any guesses why all of Melo's "friends" decide to play elsewhere? Could it be because they fear they'll never touch the ball?
Phil has done enough to convince me he knows what a winning team and culture look like. His biggest issue is competing objectives of win-now and building a program
And to use your words, why isn't it the case that you're making Phil the scapegoat? Don't you think the players are more responsible for the performance and effort they put on the court, e.g., constant chucking of shots no matter how cold you are, tunnel vision when you have the ball, lack of effort on D. Is that Phil's fault, honestly?
I assume that most know my point of view from day one when Phil took the job..Phil undermines his coach by asking them to run the triangle..I said it would happen when Phil took the job..Fisher confirmed it a few days ago..Byron Scott said it was happening..It's happening with Hornacek...So when I see the exact thing happening I thought would happen because of Phil's meddling, who can I blame???Who is my "scapegoat"???
Phil coach selections is sub par..He only pick coaches who he can control...Fisher confirmed he wasn't ready for such a job...Charles Barkley said Hornacek was hired because he can be controlled..I posted the video...So even before we get the to bad trades and the team on the court, Phil is completely responsible...
Now we can get into philosophy about a win now team, like Melo shouldn't be the main work horse, etc, which escapes this coach for some reason...We need a legit bench to rest the starters...Melo should be the guy playing in spurts like LeBron allows Kyre to be the main guy or Duncan allowing Parker to be the main guy and taking over in spurts back in the day..That's where should be Melo is if we are trying to win now..Maybe that's why Rose is here...Can someone tell the coach or is he confused with Rambis, Phil's spy, breathing the triangle down his neck???..So before we unpack that bag, there are lots of pieces missing that is Phil's responsibility that I personally can see, even if many just want to ignore it...We can spend a day breaking down the issues of the team...How does he undermine a coach with his triangle, when they were hired to run it?
If they don't, how does he hire a coach who "He can control", but who then deviates from the triangle?
So basically he hires guys he can control, but then can't? Twice?
Is it possible the triangle is a progressive situation?
Yes, PHil is responsible for all things. EVERYTHING! So is every other team president.
Melo should be the guy, and when you have Lebron and KLove next to you, you can alternate "surges". Your comparing the knicks to a team that has gone to two finals in two years.
Holl, I agree with a lot of what you say, but the fact is Melo does not function in that capcity because the team is not good enough around him.
Rambis is a spy? Please expand? Is he there to disrupt the progress? Snitch?
Phil hired Fish to do a job. He was not doing it.
Phil hired JH to do a job. My take is he is giving JH the leeway to do things his way, but he wants the triangle to be a part of it.
Phil hires coaches to run the triangle..Any fool will take the job and the money...The players doesn't believe in the system and doesn't believe the coaches want to run the system because it's Phil who is pushing the system on them..They don't buy in...You don't have to believe me, read what Fisher said about it, or Byron Scott...If left up to Hornacek, he would run something entirely different...The players know that...
Melo can't play 40 minutes a night back to back anymore..Whats more, he is playing full quarters, something he has never done before and now at age 32...He look at times like he can't move..Does anyone try to cut his minutes???..Nooooo...You want him to play defense, cut his minutes...Let's see if the workload is the problem..Kyre carries the bulk of the offense in terms of creating and being involved on every play...Bron can pick his spots, Duncan used to pick his spots when Parker took over the load...It's where Melo is physically now...But you think Melo should bare the load, ok...
Rambis is Phil's best friend...The players and coaches should have the opportunity to bond and grow together without having Phil(Rambis) in every meeting.. Players and coaches should really get to air their grievances in confidence without it getting back to Phil...It's like working with the boss' kid, you really don't say much and just keep quiet about things...You know it all gets back to Phil...Just my feeling..Could be wrong...It all makes a tense and screwed up work environment where emotion plays a very important role in how you play... The game is hard enough without extra psychological overhang that exist...
And then Melo has to put up with the Phil and Rosen bs...The team seemed to have rallied around Melo...Even fans in different arenas...Phil came here to "change the culture"...Same of stuff at the Garden...If he trades Melo, he doesn't have to worry about winning the next two years, what a gig...
Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
Do tell? Is this going to be the re-run of Kidd, Sheed, etc. That was a short tem plan to the hilt. Nearly all of those guys went to pasture immediately and in the process we had a bare cupboard
I can also tell he was part of a 50 win team for 7 consecutive years...Amare and Chandler was coming off the books a year later..But who cares now..Phil has the con, it's his show...We beat the Nets featuring Jeremy Lin and Luis Scola backups and Phil is now a genius...OK...Well here's where we differ
I think Phil is a genius and trying and doing his best under the circumstances in a very competitive sport with lots of limitations (such as lack of draft picks). He hasn't been perfect, but I accept that
I also think Melo's game has not evolved since his Denver days, except for one brief glimpse last season which he seems to have now abandoned. He's a fantastic player but even in the 50 win seasons you're talking about they were a quick exit from the playoffs and his coach at the time (who has his own issues) doesn't speak well of him. And -- for what it's worth -- he had his best years when he had a smart point guard making the decisions instead of him (Billups).
You seem to think Phil is a dunce and Melo is the answer
What is our record since Phil has been here??..I said Melo, like Fisher before him, is the scapegoat not the answer...
It has not been good, but I don't think that proves your point.He has the difficult task of trying to balance a win-now desire with building a winning culture of system basketball, player drafting and development. He could have continued the trend of prior Knicks and surrounded Melo with the Kidds and Sheeds, and indeed his biggest failures are probably tied to his attempts to do so (Afflalo, Rose, Noah). So if he's worthy of criticism it's for not surrounding Melo with the right pieces. But I've asked this before and have heard nothing in response. Who would you have (could you have) surrounded him with, without the franchise digging yet another whole of no picks, space etc.?
Any guesses why all of Melo's "friends" decide to play elsewhere? Could it be because they fear they'll never touch the ball?
Phil has done enough to convince me he knows what a winning team and culture look like. His biggest issue is competing objectives of win-now and building a program
And to use your words, why isn't it the case that you're making Phil the scapegoat? Don't you think the players are more responsible for the performance and effort they put on the court, e.g., constant chucking of shots no matter how cold you are, tunnel vision when you have the ball, lack of effort on D. Is that Phil's fault, honestly?
I assume that most know my point of view from day one when Phil took the job..Phil undermines his coach by asking them to run the triangle..I said it would happen when Phil took the job..Fisher confirmed it a few days ago..Byron Scott said it was happening..It's happening with Hornacek...So when I see the exact thing happening I thought would happen because of Phil's meddling, who can I blame???Who is my "scapegoat"???
Phil coach selections is sub par..He only pick coaches who he can control...Fisher confirmed he wasn't ready for such a job...Charles Barkley said Hornacek was hired because he can be controlled..I posted the video...So even before we get the to bad trades and the team on the court, Phil is completely responsible...
Now we can get into philosophy about a win now team, like Melo shouldn't be the main work horse, etc, which escapes this coach for some reason...We need a legit bench to rest the starters...Melo should be the guy playing in spurts like LeBron allows Kyre to be the main guy or Duncan allowing Parker to be the main guy and taking over in spurts back in the day..That's where should be Melo is if we are trying to win now..Maybe that's why Rose is here...Can someone tell the coach or is he confused with Rambis, Phil's spy, breathing the triangle down his neck???..So before we unpack that bag, there are lots of pieces missing that is Phil's responsibility that I personally can see, even if many just want to ignore it...We can spend a day breaking down the issues of the team...who were your coach choices?
I hope you don't say Kerr or Walton because they were Phil's too, and I know when he was talking kerr no one but one was publicly saying Kerr would kill it like he eventually did
I would have kept Woody, I like defense, playoffs and winning...Call me crazy...I would have given Mark Jackson a look..He laid a foundation in GS, no one seems to care...I'll would certainly give him a shot over Hornacek...He is also a NY guy who understands the City and players believe in him...Too much personality I'm guessing..
They wouldn't want to run the triangle tho..Disqualification...
holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:holfresh wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
Traded THJ, Grant, shumpert, and let Galloway walk, I don't even know where Early is at. Cmon now.
Kp, willy and Kuz are solid, but I don't know what the heck phil is doing. One minute he's trading young players for vets, a few month later after a losing streak, he wants to trade the vets for picks.
I would be more happy, with grant instead of baker, shumpert instead of lance, and THJ instead of sasha.
Every 3 months the franchise switches direction, rebuild, oh no, win now,
Microview of many teams will yield a similar response.
Year one was audition time and then clean house. I would not say "One minute this, one minute that".
Year two was KP a rookie starter and woeful back court. "He let Langston go".....Galloway was not playing that well in the system.
NOLA made a play.
Year three is where we are at. Nothing has been done yet. I'd say after half a season we are getting great value with Willy, and its a big surprise, as is the lack of value for Noah.
Kuz had to adapt to the speed of the game and he is coming along nice. As had Willy.
Big picture is about Melo and his inability to move the ball.
Issue of his trades being poor is easy. I suppose you keep repeating the same thing as have I, and others to discuss this. Your not absorbing or moving on, so its fruitless to discuss again.
All I can say is when Shump and JR were here, it was not working. When Tyson was here, it was not working.
Really, Noah is over paid by about 3-4 million. That's not a franchise busting number.Im fine with the concept of Jennings and Rose to start the season. It seemed to be working for a while.
Teams are not like fans where they trade or react to losing streaks. There are reasons why things fall out of favor and bringing in new players who don't know the system, ANY SYSTEM, or have chemistry won't necessary improve things right away. That's why off season moves are best.
That's a big distraction and you know it is...Melo is the easy target for the ills of the team...People will figure out it's Phil, just a matter of time...Seen vs the unseen.....
We can say Phil did bad trades (seen), but we don't know what the alternative to them was?
We can say not all signings/trade work, but if you don't attempt, you do nothing.
Phil does not play, so its not his fault.I put this in another thread that Melo is who he is and doubt he would or could change. He is a great talent and should be on a team that needs what he does.
He would not be here if not for his NTC. Im not into the blame game or mad, just looking at the future and if a deal can be made, we should. It won't be full value unless there is a market for him.
That's ok, cuz if we had let him go, we would have gotten nothing.
Perhaps you might say "well, we would have had cap space...." (Unseen). True, we might have made a bad signing. (also unseen)
Reality is this moment and the future, the past (Seen) is unchangeable.
Draft picks matter, and we have not had much to work with the last few years.
Melo is not helping us in the long run. Reality.Reality is that Phil has tried to field a playoff team for three years running doing things his way...Triangle, with his coaches and players..Last year it was Fisher's fault and this year it's Melo..One thing I do know and I have seen is what Melo can do with the right pieces and the right coaches around him...Bad trades and assembling a team that fits a style from yesterday, which hampers the defensive schemes..You spend money on the frontline and the backcourt suffers...People will figure it out when Melo is gone...
Do tell? Is this going to be the re-run of Kidd, Sheed, etc. That was a short tem plan to the hilt. Nearly all of those guys went to pasture immediately and in the process we had a bare cupboard
I can also tell he was part of a 50 win team for 7 consecutive years...Amare and Chandler was coming off the books a year later..But who cares now..Phil has the con, it's his show...We beat the Nets featuring Jeremy Lin and Luis Scola backups and Phil is now a genius...OK...Well here's where we differ
I think Phil is a genius and trying and doing his best under the circumstances in a very competitive sport with lots of limitations (such as lack of draft picks). He hasn't been perfect, but I accept that
I also think Melo's game has not evolved since his Denver days, except for one brief glimpse last season which he seems to have now abandoned. He's a fantastic player but even in the 50 win seasons you're talking about they were a quick exit from the playoffs and his coach at the time (who has his own issues) doesn't speak well of him. And -- for what it's worth -- he had his best years when he had a smart point guard making the decisions instead of him (Billups).
You seem to think Phil is a dunce and Melo is the answer
What is our record since Phil has been here??..I said Melo, like Fisher before him, is the scapegoat not the answer...
It has not been good, but I don't think that proves your point.He has the difficult task of trying to balance a win-now desire with building a winning culture of system basketball, player drafting and development. He could have continued the trend of prior Knicks and surrounded Melo with the Kidds and Sheeds, and indeed his biggest failures are probably tied to his attempts to do so (Afflalo, Rose, Noah). So if he's worthy of criticism it's for not surrounding Melo with the right pieces. But I've asked this before and have heard nothing in response. Who would you have (could you have) surrounded him with, without the franchise digging yet another whole of no picks, space etc.?
Any guesses why all of Melo's "friends" decide to play elsewhere? Could it be because they fear they'll never touch the ball?
Phil has done enough to convince me he knows what a winning team and culture look like. His biggest issue is competing objectives of win-now and building a program
And to use your words, why isn't it the case that you're making Phil the scapegoat? Don't you think the players are more responsible for the performance and effort they put on the court, e.g., constant chucking of shots no matter how cold you are, tunnel vision when you have the ball, lack of effort on D. Is that Phil's fault, honestly?
I assume that most know my point of view from day one when Phil took the job..Phil undermines his coach by asking them to run the triangle..I said it would happen when Phil took the job..Fisher confirmed it a few days ago..Byron Scott said it was happening..It's happening with Hornacek...So when I see the exact thing happening I thought would happen because of Phil's meddling, who can I blame???Who is my "scapegoat"???
Phil coach selections is sub par..He only pick coaches who he can control...Fisher confirmed he wasn't ready for such a job...Charles Barkley said Hornacek was hired because he can be controlled..I posted the video...So even before we get the to bad trades and the team on the court, Phil is completely responsible...
Now we can get into philosophy about a win now team, like Melo shouldn't be the main work horse, etc, which escapes this coach for some reason...We need a legit bench to rest the starters...Melo should be the guy playing in spurts like LeBron allows Kyre to be the main guy or Duncan allowing Parker to be the main guy and taking over in spurts back in the day..That's where should be Melo is if we are trying to win now..Maybe that's why Rose is here...Can someone tell the coach or is he confused with Rambis, Phil's spy, breathing the triangle down his neck???..So before we unpack that bag, there are lots of pieces missing that is Phil's responsibility that I personally can see, even if many just want to ignore it...We can spend a day breaking down the issues of the team...who were your coach choices?
I hope you don't say Kerr or Walton because they were Phil's too, and I know when he was talking kerr no one but one was publicly saying Kerr would kill it like he eventually did
I would have kept Woody, I like defense, playoffs and winning...Call me crazy...I would have given Mark Jackson a look..He laid a foundation in GS, no one seems to care...I'll would certainly give him a shot over Hornacek...He is also a NY guy who understands the City and players believe in him...Too much personality I'm guessing..
They wouldn't want to run the triangle tho..Disqualification...
Woody was good but not so good that any other team wanted him in the last couple/few years. Same too for Jackson who btw was supplanted by Kerr (Phil's true first choice) who then took a good 50+ win team and turned it into a juggernaut. So we'll just have to agree to disagree. I hear you're frustrated. I hear you blame Phil (and you may be right).
I think the NTC was huge for Melo. Lets not forget that a big reason Dolan brought in Phil Jackson was to keep Melo. He was afraid his star was leaving. Melo staying in NY was not a forgone conclusion at that time.
nyknickzingis wrote:I think he was going to go to the Lakers in that case. Good city for his wife, already had a house for the summer there. Would replace Kobe pretty easily once Kobe retired. They would have been a disaster, the Kobe/Melo pairing that is, but Melo would have made max money and lived in a city he loved.Melo got an extra year, and 27 mil more in addition to the ntc, and the trade kicker. Melo always was going to get his money first. He would have gone to the Bulls if the money was right.I think the NTC was huge for Melo. Lets not forget that a big reason Dolan brought in Phil Jackson was to keep Melo. He was afraid his star was leaving. Melo staying in NY was not a forgone conclusion at that time.
Knixkik wrote:joec32033 wrote:Knixkik wrote:joec32033 wrote:crzymdups wrote:joec32033 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:It's really a shame phil had no pick in 2014 or 2016.Yes, this is a good point.
Phil has drafted well.
Free agents and trades have not been great.
I think his weak spot is trades. Although in the Rose trade he left himself an out after a year.
Afflalo was a bad signing that he worked out of.
Lopez was a good signing until he was traded.
D. Williams was a good signing (would have been a good fit with Horny as coach)
Lee is a push.
Noah was overpaid.
NOT offering Monroe the max was a good non-move.
Phil has definately been a mixed bag. His (Gaines) Euro game is strong. Trades i still think he has to work on not leaving value on the table.
I can't forgive or forget the Tyson Chandler for Calderon trade or the Shump/JR for nothin' trade.
Free Agency has been ok... not great... but I think FA is tough in the league now, also no one really wants to come to NY because they see how it goes.
Courtney Lee is my favorite FA signing, Jennings I've liked, too. And Rolo
My favorite trade though was the Jerian Grant one and he undid that when he traded him and Rolo. Anyway. It's been a mixed bax.
I do strongly agree that if he'd had first round picks in 2014 and 2016 this team would be massively different and probably quite good.
I forgive the Tyson trade because at the time Tyson was turning tide against Woodson. His "leadership" was turning to malcontent. He was hurt constantly. Everyone points to the 2 picks Cleveland gave for Mozgov, but Lebron wanted him, he was on a cheaper cobtract, was younger and more durable than Chandler. And Chandler was probably my favorite Knick in that time period, but his attitude started to turn me off.
The Shump/JR trade is what it was. It was to dump JR and Shump was the price. Shump by himself was only going to get us a back end 1st rounder and it netted us the equvilant talentwise in Lance. Lets not forget JR was unraveling and Melo wasn't/isn't capable of curbing him like Lebron is.
The thing about the Chandler trade is Phil admitted his biggest mistake was not talking Jae Crowder in that deal. The narrative of his trading ability changes with that one minor adjustment of taking Crowder instead of grabbing the 2nd round pick which became C Early. One move can change how a GM is viewed in this aspect and this is the one non-move that would have given us confidence in his ability to win trades.
Hey I agree, I love Crowder, but be honest did youbsee Crowder turning into what he is now? Crowder was just another swingman in Dallas following in the lineage of Josh Howard, the other guy with the funny haircut (Marquis Daniels) et al...all the same type of player. Yeah, hindsight Crowder has turned into this year's Demarre Carroll-Atlanta Version. He would be a great fit on this team or any team as a glue guy, but all GM's have that deal that they left money on the table after a few years to let deals marinate.
Maybe not, but there's no way really to know that. I just think Phil has been bashed so much that he has somehow become underrated in some aspects. He's been exceptional with what draft picks he's had, he's signed quality free agents with exception to Noah. O'Quinn and Kuz were bargains. Lopez, Lee, D Will, and Afflalo were safe, quality signings. His trades have been suspect, but the version of the Chandler deal where Crowder is included changes that perception a little. And as i stated earlier, if he has his 2014 and 2016 picks to work with, the perception of him as a President may change totally. I think his biggest downfall has been his lack of communication and accountability, which sort of goes against the idea that he would change the culture. That has been a big disappointment. The mind-games he plays may have worked fine in the 90s, but doesn't work with the weak-minded millennials in today's game. But from a basketball standpoint, he has taken short term risks while building long term success, and we are better off than we were before he got here.
I agree with just about everything said here, except the Crowder part. No GM is going to bat 1000. It was just a deal that he got wrong.