Knicks · Phil with the giant left hook to Melo's jaw / reputation (page 4)
knicks1248 wrote:
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
agree 100% with these two points.
particularly the last - FA are gonna see how Melo was treated, but also DWill, Afflalo, Rolo, Noah, etc. Not exactly a place to go to build your brand or succeed on the court. Even if Melo doesn't get traded... Phil has done an insane amount of damage to his own reputation around the league with this.
Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:The other thing worth nothing about Phil - the Melo trade cost the Knicks first round pick in 2014, the Bargnani trade in 2016... so Phil could not trade the 2015 or 2017 first round picks due to the Stepien rule. He could trade the 2015 pick only on draft night and indeed he tried to, because he wasn't sold on KP. We almost wound up with Trey Lyles or Kaminsky instead...So, he was not allowed to trade the draft picks before 2018. Back in 2014, a pick in 2018 was not very enticing, the GM who got it might well be fired before it was time to use it. I remember at least a few rumors about the Knicks considering making a trade offer for someone and thinking about including the 2018 pick... because that has always been the earliest trade he could make.
So, he gets credit for not trading the picks... but his hands were sort of tied for a while on actually even having the option to include a first round pick in a trade.
You have no idea about this at all. Phil's guy Gaines told Phil to draft KP even if we had the #1 pick. These trade rumors come from all over the place. For all any of us know, Phil never shopped the pick at all, outside of maybe due diligence, and made up his mind on KP the minute he saw him workout. Of course, maybe that wasn't the case, but neither you or I or anyone else outside of Phil's inner circle have anyway of knowing that, so assuming that is the case is completely baseless and wrong.
It's reported by Wojo in that video I linked above.
edit: here - http://sports.yahoo.com/news/woj-report-...
knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
POST OF THE FREAKING YEAR!!! 🥇 Gold Medal for that one Martin.
martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.
In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.
Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.
Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.
And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?
And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."
Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.
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crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.
In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.
Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.
Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.
And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?
And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."
Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.
That is such a weak argument. Every game, on both ends of the floor. How hard is that to do when you have been given a Max deal with a NTC and are the so-called leader of the team? That is the bare minimum we should expect our players and ESPECIALLY our team leader to do. This is the guy who was complicit with FORCING his way to NY by stripping the team of assets.
Every game for every minute of every game. Not just once a month when the game is close. And when your shot is off, play some defense, get a shit-ton of rebounds, play some bad-ass help defense for the 30+ minutes you are on the court. And please point out to me just ONE GAME THIS YEAR that you can help me identify where Melo played some very good defense. And I'll even accept 100% effort with bad technique as good enough. Just 1 game. I don't think ANYONE can do that.
martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
Outstanding observations. Great post.
What I think might be happening here is that Melo is sending a message to Phil by putting up numbers that are meaningless. No defense, no effort, and no desire to win. NONE. How do the Knicks lose to the Lakers unless Melo and whoever is supporting him sit on their hands.
That's the message Melo is sending and so many fans are upset that Melo's feelings might be getting hurt. Or maybe that non-existent brand recognition is being tarnished. Phil very well could have said to Hornacek, "Bench him. Play the kids." and he would have been perfectly within his rights to say so.
CrushAlot wrote:This was a giant left hook into Phil's reputation. Is it possible for a guy that appears to be so out of touch, and mailing it in to look worse. Giving a guy a ntc, and a trade kicker that makes him virtually impossible to trade was bad. But to then go out and trash the guy again through his media source and twitter and lower his value is a new low. Is Phil the genius with 11 rings that just trashed any chance of getting anything for the best player on his team by using his expertise to destroy his value? Or is he the crazy, out of touch, narcissist that thinks he is smarter than everyone else and somehow will out work people with his mind. Either way he just f@cked up. He better hope Dolan is as dumb as he appears.
Granted Phil does some strange crap, but is he really the one to focus on in this? How about Melo, Rose and Noah who were brought here to give this team the vet leadership it needs and what have they done? Do you see Rose and Melo giving every ounce of sweat they have on the floor and barking orders to the team to D'up etc? Do you see them leading by example with setting up teammates to make sure they're getting great looks? Underneath all of the stuff you can try and blame Phil for HOW ABOUT THE BIG MONEY STARS??? Phil doesn't play the games!
martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.
In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.
Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.
Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.
And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?
And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."
Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.
That is such a weak argument. Every game, on both ends of the floor. How hard is that to do when you have been given a Max deal with a NTC and are the so-called leader of the team? That is the bare minimum we should expect our players and ESPECIALLY our team leader to do. This is the guy who was complicit with FORCING his way to NY by stripping the team of assets.
Every game for every minute of every game. Not just once a month when the game is close. And when your shot is off, play some defense, get a shit-ton of rebounds, play some bad-ass help defense for the 30+ minutes you are on the court. And please point out to me just ONE GAME THIS YEAR that you can help me identify where Melo played some very good defense. And I'll even accept 100% effort with bad technique as good enough. Just 1 game. I don't think ANYONE can do that.
There have been plenty of games Melo has given a good effort - wins against Charlotte, Minnesota, Portland, games against Atlanta, Chicago. He's also 32yrs old and playing way too many minutes. Also, the Knicks defensive scheme never seems to change - I don't think the entire team scheme should be laid on Melo's lap. Their system, ever since Fisher left, has allowed constant open threes. That's Rambis's philosophy and I think it is deeply wrong for today's game. Fisher used to force guys off the line and it worked pretty well. As soon as Rambis took over last season in February, we started allowing tons of open threes. I don't blame Melo for that.
KP is an elite rim protector, but our defensive scheme and lineups have KP chasing around stretch 4s on the perimeter. Melo shouldn't be playing the 3 at this point of his career - since 2012-3 we've all known his best position is PF, where he is actually an above average defender by the numbers. Is the lineup Melo's fault? Or is that roster construction Phil's fault? Or is it the coach? I think it is crappy to scapegoat Melo for a team that has been a mess from roster construction, coaching, lineups, on down. Is it Melo's fault the Knicks defense is much better when KOQ starts over Noah? Melo is not an elite defender. Neither is James Harden. You can win with those guys by playing to their strengths, instead of griping about their weaknesses.
Look, I agree it is time for Melo to go. He's not in his prime anymore and he can't deliver an all-star performance every night by any stretch. The team is ready to rebuild through the draft and around KP and Willy. But I disagree with Phil's tactics. The articles being written around the league, not just in NY, seem to prove that league-wide people are not impressed by how Phil has handled this. It will have negative consequences down the road. I'm guessing as early as this summer in Free Agency.
CrushAlot wrote:This was a giant left hook into Phil's reputation. Is it possible for a guy that appears to be so out of touch, and mailing it in to look worse. Giving a guy a ntc, and a trade kicker that makes him virtually impossible to trade was bad. But to then go out and trash the guy again through his media source and twitter and lower his value is a new low. Is Phil the genius with 11 rings that just trashed any chance of getting anything for the best player on his team by using his expertise to destroy his value? Or is he the crazy, out of touch, narcissist that thinks he is smarter than everyone else and somehow will out work people with his mind. Either way he just f@cked up. He better hope Dolan is as dumb as he appears.
Dolan has seen this stuff a number of times already. He's good letting Phil run the show. Why not? To set up yet another front-office to be publicly barbecued by the MSM? There's a saying; "When you're going through hell, keep going" Phil will win out because there is no better alternative. Mills knows this, Dolan knows this.
As for trading Melo. Melo's rancid performances dampen his trade value, nothing Phil tweets can be news except to total morons.
nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:This was a giant left hook into Phil's reputation. Is it possible for a guy that appears to be so out of touch, and mailing it in to look worse. Giving a guy a ntc, and a trade kicker that makes him virtually impossible to trade was bad. But to then go out and trash the guy again through his media source and twitter and lower his value is a new low. Is Phil the genius with 11 rings that just trashed any chance of getting anything for the best player on his team by using his expertise to destroy his value? Or is he the crazy, out of touch, narcissist that thinks he is smarter than everyone else and somehow will out work people with his mind. Either way he just f@cked up. He better hope Dolan is as dumb as he appears.Granted Phil does some strange crap, but is he really the one to focus on in this? How about Melo, Rose and Noah who were brought here to give this team the vet leadership it needs and what have they done? Do you see Rose and Melo giving every ounce of sweat they have on the floor and barking orders to the team to D'up etc? Do you see them leading by example with setting up teammates to make sure they're getting great looks? Underneath all of the stuff you can try and blame Phil for HOW ABOUT THE BIG MONEY STARS??? Phil doesn't play the games!
Exactly.
Rambis isn't telling the team to ignore shooters. Hornacek isn't breaking clip boards because the team is playing the scheme. Hubris is Melo's problem - he thinks he's bigger than the team.let him sit at the end of the bench for the rest of the season.
crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.
In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.
Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.
Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.
And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?
And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."
Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.
That is such a weak argument. Every game, on both ends of the floor. How hard is that to do when you have been given a Max deal with a NTC and are the so-called leader of the team? That is the bare minimum we should expect our players and ESPECIALLY our team leader to do. This is the guy who was complicit with FORCING his way to NY by stripping the team of assets.
Every game for every minute of every game. Not just once a month when the game is close. And when your shot is off, play some defense, get a shit-ton of rebounds, play some bad-ass help defense for the 30+ minutes you are on the court. And please point out to me just ONE GAME THIS YEAR that you can help me identify where Melo played some very good defense. And I'll even accept 100% effort with bad technique as good enough. Just 1 game. I don't think ANYONE can do that.
There have been plenty of games Melo has given a good effort - wins against Charlotte, Minnesota, Portland, games against Atlanta, Chicago. He's also 32yrs old and playing way too many minutes. Also, the Knicks defensive scheme never seems to change - I don't think the entire team scheme should be laid on Melo's lap. Their system, ever since Fisher left, has allowed constant open threes. That's Rambis's philosophy and I think it is deeply wrong for today's game. Fisher used to force guys off the line and it worked pretty well. As soon as Rambis took over last season in February, we started allowing tons of open threes. I don't blame Melo for that.
KP is an elite rim protector, but our defensive scheme and lineups have KP chasing around stretch 4s on the perimeter. Melo shouldn't be playing the 3 at this point of his career - since 2012-3 we've all known his best position is PF, where he is actually an above average defender by the numbers. Is the lineup Melo's fault? Or is that roster construction Phil's fault? Or is it the coach? I think it is crappy to scapegoat Melo for a team that has been a mess from roster construction, coaching, lineups, on down. Is it Melo's fault the Knicks defense is much better when KOQ starts over Noah? Melo is not an elite defender. Neither is James Harden. You can win with those guys by playing to their strengths, instead of griping about their weaknesses.
Look, I agree it is time for Melo to go. He's not in his prime anymore and he can't deliver an all-star performance every night by any stretch. The team is ready to rebuild through the draft and around KP and Willy. But I disagree with Phil's tactics. The articles being written around the league, not just in NY, seem to prove that league-wide people are not impressed by how Phil has handled this. It will have negative consequences down the road. I'm guessing as early as this summer in Free Agency.
That's the wrong answer. The answer should be that he has given 100% effort EVERY GAME ON BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. Melo is averaging 33.8 minutes a game, least of his career. You give 100% effort all the time and when you are dog tired, you ask to be taken out or take a game off completely if absolutely necessary.
I am talking about effort, not execution. I don't expect a perfect player but I do expect perfect effort.
martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.
In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.
Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.
Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.
And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?
And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."
Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.
That is such a weak argument. Every game, on both ends of the floor. How hard is that to do when you have been given a Max deal with a NTC and are the so-called leader of the team? That is the bare minimum we should expect our players and ESPECIALLY our team leader to do. This is the guy who was complicit with FORCING his way to NY by stripping the team of assets.
Every game for every minute of every game. Not just once a month when the game is close. And when your shot is off, play some defense, get a shit-ton of rebounds, play some bad-ass help defense for the 30+ minutes you are on the court. And please point out to me just ONE GAME THIS YEAR that you can help me identify where Melo played some very good defense. And I'll even accept 100% effort with bad technique as good enough. Just 1 game. I don't think ANYONE can do that.
There have been plenty of games Melo has given a good effort - wins against Charlotte, Minnesota, Portland, games against Atlanta, Chicago. He's also 32yrs old and playing way too many minutes. Also, the Knicks defensive scheme never seems to change - I don't think the entire team scheme should be laid on Melo's lap. Their system, ever since Fisher left, has allowed constant open threes. That's Rambis's philosophy and I think it is deeply wrong for today's game. Fisher used to force guys off the line and it worked pretty well. As soon as Rambis took over last season in February, we started allowing tons of open threes. I don't blame Melo for that.
KP is an elite rim protector, but our defensive scheme and lineups have KP chasing around stretch 4s on the perimeter. Melo shouldn't be playing the 3 at this point of his career - since 2012-3 we've all known his best position is PF, where he is actually an above average defender by the numbers. Is the lineup Melo's fault? Or is that roster construction Phil's fault? Or is it the coach? I think it is crappy to scapegoat Melo for a team that has been a mess from roster construction, coaching, lineups, on down. Is it Melo's fault the Knicks defense is much better when KOQ starts over Noah? Melo is not an elite defender. Neither is James Harden. You can win with those guys by playing to their strengths, instead of griping about their weaknesses.
Look, I agree it is time for Melo to go. He's not in his prime anymore and he can't deliver an all-star performance every night by any stretch. The team is ready to rebuild through the draft and around KP and Willy. But I disagree with Phil's tactics. The articles being written around the league, not just in NY, seem to prove that league-wide people are not impressed by how Phil has handled this. It will have negative consequences down the road. I'm guessing as early as this summer in Free Agency.
That's the wrong answer. The answer should be that he has given 100% effort EVERY GAME ON BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. Melo is averaging 33.8 minutes a game, least of his career. You give 100% effort all the time and when you are dog tired, you ask to be taken out or take a game off completely if absolutely necessary.
I am talking about effort, not execution. I don't expect a perfect player but I do expect perfect effort.
That's just a wildly unrealistic expectation. How many players in the league do you think meet that standard? I'm not trying to be facetious, but I think it is unrealistic to think 32yr old Melo coming off two knee debridements and playing with a shoulder injury is going to play all out for 34minutes a night at this stage of his career. Melo should be averaging even fewer minutes. Wade is averaging 30mpg this year.
Though again, I think the main issue on defense is the scheme. And the starting lineup has three guys on the wrong side of 30 - Noah is the biggest culprit, Rose would be next, Melo would be next. All three are a problem on defense. Starting them together is suicide. Our best stretches of the season coincided with Noah being out earlier in the year, before the wheels came flying off. I love Noah... but his game and his lateral movement is toast. He shouldn't have been signed for 4yrs.
Rose should've been suspended when he went AWOL and benched for his defensive effort, far moreso than Melo, IMHO. Rose going AWOL is to me when the season really hit the point of no return. And, yes, I do think Jackson should have said something publicly and stood up for Hornacek and his team and suspended Rose. Guys have been openly defying Hornacek on the floor since Rose got back. Rose, KOQ, Melo. Phil needed to step in publicly there and make an example of Rose. He didn't, season went even further off the rails.
fwk00 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:This was a giant left hook into Phil's reputation. Is it possible for a guy that appears to be so out of touch, and mailing it in to look worse. Giving a guy a ntc, and a trade kicker that makes him virtually impossible to trade was bad. But to then go out and trash the guy again through his media source and twitter and lower his value is a new low. Is Phil the genius with 11 rings that just trashed any chance of getting anything for the best player on his team by using his expertise to destroy his value? Or is he the crazy, out of touch, narcissist that thinks he is smarter than everyone else and somehow will out work people with his mind. Either way he just f@cked up. He better hope Dolan is as dumb as he appears.Dolan has seen this stuff a number of times already. He's good letting Phil run the show. Why not? To set up yet another front-office to be publicly barbecued by the MSM? There's a saying; "When you're going through hell, keep going" Phil will win out because there is no better alternative. Mills knows this, Dolan knows this.
As for trading Melo. Melo's rancid performances dampen his trade value, nothing Phil tweets can be news except to total morons.
Out of curiosity, do you work at MSG?
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crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.
In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.
Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.
Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.
And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?
And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."
Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.
That is such a weak argument. Every game, on both ends of the floor. How hard is that to do when you have been given a Max deal with a NTC and are the so-called leader of the team? That is the bare minimum we should expect our players and ESPECIALLY our team leader to do. This is the guy who was complicit with FORCING his way to NY by stripping the team of assets.
Every game for every minute of every game. Not just once a month when the game is close. And when your shot is off, play some defense, get a shit-ton of rebounds, play some bad-ass help defense for the 30+ minutes you are on the court. And please point out to me just ONE GAME THIS YEAR that you can help me identify where Melo played some very good defense. And I'll even accept 100% effort with bad technique as good enough. Just 1 game. I don't think ANYONE can do that.
There have been plenty of games Melo has given a good effort - wins against Charlotte, Minnesota, Portland, games against Atlanta, Chicago. He's also 32yrs old and playing way too many minutes. Also, the Knicks defensive scheme never seems to change - I don't think the entire team scheme should be laid on Melo's lap. Their system, ever since Fisher left, has allowed constant open threes. That's Rambis's philosophy and I think it is deeply wrong for today's game. Fisher used to force guys off the line and it worked pretty well. As soon as Rambis took over last season in February, we started allowing tons of open threes. I don't blame Melo for that.
KP is an elite rim protector, but our defensive scheme and lineups have KP chasing around stretch 4s on the perimeter. Melo shouldn't be playing the 3 at this point of his career - since 2012-3 we've all known his best position is PF, where he is actually an above average defender by the numbers. Is the lineup Melo's fault? Or is that roster construction Phil's fault? Or is it the coach? I think it is crappy to scapegoat Melo for a team that has been a mess from roster construction, coaching, lineups, on down. Is it Melo's fault the Knicks defense is much better when KOQ starts over Noah? Melo is not an elite defender. Neither is James Harden. You can win with those guys by playing to their strengths, instead of griping about their weaknesses.
Look, I agree it is time for Melo to go. He's not in his prime anymore and he can't deliver an all-star performance every night by any stretch. The team is ready to rebuild through the draft and around KP and Willy. But I disagree with Phil's tactics. The articles being written around the league, not just in NY, seem to prove that league-wide people are not impressed by how Phil has handled this. It will have negative consequences down the road. I'm guessing as early as this summer in Free Agency.
That's the wrong answer. The answer should be that he has given 100% effort EVERY GAME ON BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. Melo is averaging 33.8 minutes a game, least of his career. You give 100% effort all the time and when you are dog tired, you ask to be taken out or take a game off completely if absolutely necessary.
I am talking about effort, not execution. I don't expect a perfect player but I do expect perfect effort.
That's just a wildly unrealistic expectation. How many players in the league do you think meet that standard? I'm not trying to be facetious, but I think it is unrealistic to think 32yr old Melo coming off two knee debridements and playing with a shoulder injury is going to play all out for 34minutes a night at this stage of his career. Melo should be averaging even fewer minutes. Wade is averaging 30mpg this year.
Though again, I think the main issue on defense is the scheme. And the starting lineup has three guys on the wrong side of 30 - Noah is the biggest culprit, Rose would be next, Melo would be next. All three are a problem on defense. Starting them together is suicide. Our best stretches of the season coincided with Noah being out earlier in the year, before the wheels came flying off. I love Noah... but his game and his lateral movement is toast. He shouldn't have been signed for 4yrs.Rose should've been suspended when he went AWOL and benched for his defensive effort, far moreso than Melo, IMHO. Rose going AWOL is to me when the season really hit the point of no return. And, yes, I do think Jackson should have said something publicly and stood up for Hornacek and his team and suspended Rose. Guys have been openly defying Hornacek on the floor since Rose got back. Rose, KOQ, Melo. Phil needed to step in publicly there and make an example of Rose. He didn't, season went even further off the rails.
LeBron at the same age averages 37.6 minutes a game. And BTW you just admitted that Melo doesn't give 100% effort because he is 32rs old coming off of debridement, as if that is an excuse. If Melo needs to cut back to 30, so be it. But during those minutes, 100% effort on offense and defense. You don't get to take off 1 side of the court. Ever. Why isn't the bare minimum expectation for a team leader to give 100% effort every game? WTF is that? We trying to win games that lead to playoffs or something else? That's culture. That's leadership.
I don't know why you keep talking about defensive schemes. I don't even care if they are the worst in the league, just give 100% effort all the time.
martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.
In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.
Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.
Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.
And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?
And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."
Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.
That is such a weak argument. Every game, on both ends of the floor. How hard is that to do when you have been given a Max deal with a NTC and are the so-called leader of the team? That is the bare minimum we should expect our players and ESPECIALLY our team leader to do. This is the guy who was complicit with FORCING his way to NY by stripping the team of assets.
Every game for every minute of every game. Not just once a month when the game is close. And when your shot is off, play some defense, get a shit-ton of rebounds, play some bad-ass help defense for the 30+ minutes you are on the court. And please point out to me just ONE GAME THIS YEAR that you can help me identify where Melo played some very good defense. And I'll even accept 100% effort with bad technique as good enough. Just 1 game. I don't think ANYONE can do that.
There have been plenty of games Melo has given a good effort - wins against Charlotte, Minnesota, Portland, games against Atlanta, Chicago. He's also 32yrs old and playing way too many minutes. Also, the Knicks defensive scheme never seems to change - I don't think the entire team scheme should be laid on Melo's lap. Their system, ever since Fisher left, has allowed constant open threes. That's Rambis's philosophy and I think it is deeply wrong for today's game. Fisher used to force guys off the line and it worked pretty well. As soon as Rambis took over last season in February, we started allowing tons of open threes. I don't blame Melo for that.
KP is an elite rim protector, but our defensive scheme and lineups have KP chasing around stretch 4s on the perimeter. Melo shouldn't be playing the 3 at this point of his career - since 2012-3 we've all known his best position is PF, where he is actually an above average defender by the numbers. Is the lineup Melo's fault? Or is that roster construction Phil's fault? Or is it the coach? I think it is crappy to scapegoat Melo for a team that has been a mess from roster construction, coaching, lineups, on down. Is it Melo's fault the Knicks defense is much better when KOQ starts over Noah? Melo is not an elite defender. Neither is James Harden. You can win with those guys by playing to their strengths, instead of griping about their weaknesses.
Look, I agree it is time for Melo to go. He's not in his prime anymore and he can't deliver an all-star performance every night by any stretch. The team is ready to rebuild through the draft and around KP and Willy. But I disagree with Phil's tactics. The articles being written around the league, not just in NY, seem to prove that league-wide people are not impressed by how Phil has handled this. It will have negative consequences down the road. I'm guessing as early as this summer in Free Agency.
That's the wrong answer. The answer should be that he has given 100% effort EVERY GAME ON BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. Melo is averaging 33.8 minutes a game, least of his career. You give 100% effort all the time and when you are dog tired, you ask to be taken out or take a game off completely if absolutely necessary.
I am talking about effort, not execution. I don't expect a perfect player but I do expect perfect effort.
That's just a wildly unrealistic expectation. How many players in the league do you think meet that standard? I'm not trying to be facetious, but I think it is unrealistic to think 32yr old Melo coming off two knee debridements and playing with a shoulder injury is going to play all out for 34minutes a night at this stage of his career. Melo should be averaging even fewer minutes. Wade is averaging 30mpg this year.
Though again, I think the main issue on defense is the scheme. And the starting lineup has three guys on the wrong side of 30 - Noah is the biggest culprit, Rose would be next, Melo would be next. All three are a problem on defense. Starting them together is suicide. Our best stretches of the season coincided with Noah being out earlier in the year, before the wheels came flying off. I love Noah... but his game and his lateral movement is toast. He shouldn't have been signed for 4yrs.Rose should've been suspended when he went AWOL and benched for his defensive effort, far moreso than Melo, IMHO. Rose going AWOL is to me when the season really hit the point of no return. And, yes, I do think Jackson should have said something publicly and stood up for Hornacek and his team and suspended Rose. Guys have been openly defying Hornacek on the floor since Rose got back. Rose, KOQ, Melo. Phil needed to step in publicly there and make an example of Rose. He didn't, season went even further off the rails.
LeBron at the same age averages 37.6 minutes a game. And BTW you just admitted that Melo doesn't give 100% effort because he is 32rs old coming off of debridement, as if that is an excuse. If Melo needs to cut back to 30, so be it. But during those minutes, 100% effort on offense and defense. You don't get to take off 1 side of the court. Ever. Why isn't the bare minimum expectation for a team leader to give 100% effort every game? WTF is that? We trying to win games that lead to playoffs or something else? That's culture. That's leadership.
I don't know why you keep talking about defensive schemes. I don't even care if they are the worst in the league, just give 100% effort all the time.
Coaches can put guys in position to defend well on defense. Remember JVG? Thibs?
I'll be the first to admit that Melo does not have great defensive instincts and calls for too many switches that seem unnecessary (though the whole damn team does that.... so again, is that the scheme? Courtney Lee has said the switching is part of their scheme)... Regardless, we know Melo is not a great defender. I contend that he could be made to look a lot better if he were playing the 4, not the 3... and if their scheme made more sense. It may just come down to lineups - I've always thought that the best they've looked all season has been Holiday at the 2, CLee at the 3, Melo at the 4. With that set up and KP or KOQ at the 5, they've been solid defensively. The way the league is built now, you need two wings who can quickly close out corner 3s. Melo is not that guy. You can point the finger at him, but imho it is bad planning, bad lineup, bad defensive scheme to expect Melo to be able to close out the corner 3 at this stage of his career. Cleveland doesn't ask Lebron to do that.
Also, it is kinda ridiculous for Melo to be compared constantly to Kobe, Jordan, and Lebron. Melo is not that level. He doesn't have the athleticism of any of those guys. He can score as well as them, but that's about it. Most guys in the history of the league don't measure up to MJ, Kobe, and Lebron. Those are three of the best of all time. He really has nowhere near the athleticism of any of them. It's an absurd demand for Phil to make, it's an absurd expectation for fans.
And I have no way of backing this up, but I think that the effort for the whole team has basically slid as they lost a bunch of close games and Phil started trying to publicly trade Melo. Both things are demoralizing. One thing you can control and one you can't.
Hell, you all have seen me get on Melo before - I still think he is partially to blame for the Knicks not re-signing Lin. I think he's had good seasons here and bad ones. I think it is unfair to scapegoat him for this season and I think it is just a bad strategy to try and trash him on the way out the door, both for getting a good return in a trade and for signing FA going forward. We'll see, I reckon.