Knicks · Phil with the giant left hook to Melo's jaw / reputation (page 3)
Kemet wrote:Melo is owner Dolan Golden-Egg to keep MSG sold-out and the abundance of season tickets sold
The garden was sold out when Clarence Weatherspoon was the starting power fwd.
SwishAndDish13 wrote:Well said.EnySpree wrote:SwishAndDish13 wrote:EnySpree wrote:knicks1248 wrote:This so bad for business, it's like he's putting key scratches in the car he is trying to sell.Now that's funny.
But if he is trying to sell a car that everyone know something is wrong with it, the key scratches don't make a difference
True but scratches further drive down value. This is poor management regardless of how anybody feels about Melo. Continuing to drive down value and trade from a position of weakness is foolish.
So much for "change the culture." The optics of this look very poor for the future regardless of outcome.
Its not poor management. Everyone knows what Melo is. You can't drive down his value. Only person that's going to lose is Melo. Melo might find himself coming off the bench or treated like Marbury. Regardless, we are rebuilding. Winning this year was on him. The future is bright no matter what happens with him
Pretty much any book or opinion on management in any field would disagree with you. Impressive pivot to Melo. The future isn't that bright when you have that kind of tone at the top. Perhaps another full house clean this offseason will help but if your purely talking about Jackson, it's petty vindictive, and poor management.
CrushAlot wrote:SwishAndDish13 wrote:Well said.EnySpree wrote:SwishAndDish13 wrote:EnySpree wrote:knicks1248 wrote:This so bad for business, it's like he's putting key scratches in the car he is trying to sell.Now that's funny.
But if he is trying to sell a car that everyone know something is wrong with it, the key scratches don't make a difference
True but scratches further drive down value. This is poor management regardless of how anybody feels about Melo. Continuing to drive down value and trade from a position of weakness is foolish.
So much for "change the culture." The optics of this look very poor for the future regardless of outcome.
Its not poor management. Everyone knows what Melo is. You can't drive down his value. Only person that's going to lose is Melo. Melo might find himself coming off the bench or treated like Marbury. Regardless, we are rebuilding. Winning this year was on him. The future is bright no matter what happens with him
Pretty much any book or opinion on management in any field would disagree with you. Impressive pivot to Melo. The future isn't that bright when you have that kind of tone at the top. Perhaps another full house clean this offseason will help but if your purely talking about Jackson, it's petty vindictive, and poor management.
+1
Carmelo Anthony is a very good basketball player, passionate activist and philanthropist. Phil Jackson is a creepy old dude who picks weird fights through the media.http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2017/2...Shut the hell up, Phil.
My biggest concern with trading for Rose was just this. How will KP and the longterm goals fit in with that? Even Phil addressed it, thinking that he thought that the extra wins now would help KP even more, getting into the playoffs. Which is true. But at the same time it's failed. Miserably. And Phil should take accountability, because he traded for Rose and he signed Melo to that massive deal.
Phil's short term moves have all been bad for the most part. His saving grace is that he knows how to draft (or has people that know how to advise him on how to pick talent) and he values the draft and building of talent internally. The biggest lost art of this franchise has been that. They do not value their own draft picks.
Culture wise it's a mess. Don't know what Phil's plan was but it's a mess. One thing. If you read George Karl's book, it doesn't paint Melo in a great light. If Melo is a problem for the team's culture, there's no way Phil can truly establish his way until Melo is gone. Again though if that's true about Melo, why did Phil not just tell Dolan "We're better off letting Melo walk". Would Dolan have not gone with it? Probably Dolan says "See ya Phil". I don't know the specs of what Dolan's input has been.
I'll take a stab at this and repeat what I said last year. A few years from now, long after Phil has gone/retired whatever, we will look back at drafting KP, Willy, and valuing the draft picks - grabbing players in 2017 and 18. Keeping that capspace open and not maxing out players who are not franchise carrying stars like Conley, Rose (and whomever else) - we'll look back at this time a few years from now and say Phil did us good. Harm in the short run, nothing but good for the longrun.
As early as 2018, we can be one of the best young teams with KP, Willy, 2 lottery picks (2017 and 2018) and maybe the most capspace available of any team in the league (Melo likely opts out in that year and tries to re-up for his last big pay day, even if we don't trade him till then). Longterm thinking wise, this team is a solid to good place, depending on how good KP is, and how well they continue to draft. Their cap situation is great 2018 onward. Maybe sooner if they deal Melo. I think Phil knows what he's doing longterm. It's short term he's been crappy and all over the place.
Its also high time Melo gets called out a bit as Phil did go out and get all kinds of nice pieces for Melo this year and the guy is just wanting to do his thing, not the team thing.
For all those Phil haters, go back and read all the things melo said about sacrificing his game, and what not. I do believe he had good intentions, and I don't hate him for it.
I said last weeks about the "Scorpion and the Frog"........Its Melo's nature!!! Phil said you can't change his spots...........
Melo is a nice guy, maybe too nice? Thats ok. Maybe phil feels like Melo sold him about "winning" and phil caved and gave him the NTC. I don't know.
I don't have to have hate on Melo to want him traded.
Maybe Melo does not want to play 4th fiddle in Clev. Even for a run at a chip?
Phil didn't ruin Melo's trade value, why? cuz it was not that high to begin with!!!!
Nalod wrote:I have come to like melo. There is no need for a "hero" or a "villain" here.Phil ruined his trade value when he gave him the ntc and the trade kicker.
Its also high time Melo gets called out a bit as Phil did go out and get all kinds of nice pieces for Melo this year and the guy is just wanting to do his thing, not the team thing.For all those Phil haters, go back and read all the things melo said about sacrificing his game, and what not. I do believe he had good intentions, and I don't hate him for it.
I said last weeks about the "Scorpion and the Frog"........Its Melo's nature!!! Phil said you can't change his spots...........Melo is a nice guy, maybe too nice? Thats ok. Maybe phil feels like Melo sold him about "winning" and phil caved and gave him the NTC. I don't know.
I don't have to have hate on Melo to want him traded.Maybe Melo does not want to play 4th fiddle in Clev. Even for a run at a chip?
Phil didn't ruin Melo's trade value, why? cuz it was not that high to begin with!!!!
CrushAlot wrote:Nalod wrote:I have come to like melo. There is no need for a "hero" or a "villain" here.Phil ruined his trade value when he gave him the ntc and the trade kicker.
Its also high time Melo gets called out a bit as Phil did go out and get all kinds of nice pieces for Melo this year and the guy is just wanting to do his thing, not the team thing.For all those Phil haters, go back and read all the things melo said about sacrificing his game, and what not. I do believe he had good intentions, and I don't hate him for it.
I said last weeks about the "Scorpion and the Frog"........Its Melo's nature!!! Phil said you can't change his spots...........Melo is a nice guy, maybe too nice? Thats ok. Maybe phil feels like Melo sold him about "winning" and phil caved and gave him the NTC. I don't know.
I don't have to have hate on Melo to want him traded.Maybe Melo does not want to play 4th fiddle in Clev. Even for a run at a chip?
Phil didn't ruin Melo's trade value, why? cuz it was not that high to begin with!!!!
Don't worry I'm sure Rosen will write about how Phil could have traded Melo to chicago for picks and Tony Snell, and Boozer's contract that was either expiring or had a team option on it.
Oh wait, that would be a Phil mistake so I guess he won't write about that.
Phil has not made any of this easier with his decisions or his words, but how do you get around Melo and Rose not being the tip of the spear for this team and the team losing badly like it has. There are teams with less talent that play harder. IMO Melo and Rose suck the life out of the team with their lack of hustle and selfish ball. Phil is right to want to move on even if his methods are questionable.
nixluva wrote:Can we get back to the point that if Melo was playing like a team leader that bought into playing team ball that none of this would be happening. Melo and Rose are simply not doing what Team Leaders should be doing. They get the big bucks to do more than just pad their own stats. Both should be making the rest of the team better, not worse.Phil has not made any of this easier with his decisions or his words, but how do you get around Melo and Rose not being the tip of the spear for this team and the team losing badly like it has. There are teams with less talent that play harder. IMO Melo and Rose suck the life out of the team with their lack of hustle and selfish ball. Phil is right to want to move on even if his methods are questionable.
So Phil was right when he spoke out when the team was 14-10?
CrushAlot wrote:Nalod wrote:I have come to like melo. There is no need for a "hero" or a "villain" here.Phil ruined his trade value when he gave him the ntc and the trade kicker.
Its also high time Melo gets called out a bit as Phil did go out and get all kinds of nice pieces for Melo this year and the guy is just wanting to do his thing, not the team thing.For all those Phil haters, go back and read all the things melo said about sacrificing his game, and what not. I do believe he had good intentions, and I don't hate him for it.
I said last weeks about the "Scorpion and the Frog"........Its Melo's nature!!! Phil said you can't change his spots...........Melo is a nice guy, maybe too nice? Thats ok. Maybe phil feels like Melo sold him about "winning" and phil caved and gave him the NTC. I don't know.
I don't have to have hate on Melo to want him traded.Maybe Melo does not want to play 4th fiddle in Clev. Even for a run at a chip?
Phil didn't ruin Melo's trade value, why? cuz it was not that high to begin with!!!!
If he declined it, we lose melo for nothing then?
Nalod wrote:I have come to like melo. There is no need for a "hero" or a "villain" here.
Its also high time Melo gets called out a bit as Phil did go out and get all kinds of nice pieces for Melo this year and the guy is just wanting to do his thing, not the team thing.For all those Phil haters, go back and read all the things melo said about sacrificing his game, and what not. I do believe he had good intentions, and I don't hate him for it.
I said last weeks about the "Scorpion and the Frog"........Its Melo's nature!!! Phil said you can't change his spots...........Melo is a nice guy, maybe too nice? Thats ok. Maybe phil feels like Melo sold him about "winning" and phil caved and gave him the NTC. I don't know.
I don't have to have hate on Melo to want him traded.Maybe Melo does not want to play 4th fiddle in Clev. Even for a run at a chip?
Phil didn't ruin Melo's trade value, why? cuz it was not that high to begin with!!!!
Phils was in the GYM today watching them practice, why not have a talk with melo, why not have talk with the team, he can't see thier mental state is FCK'd up.
I'm startig to hate this, I mean like who the hell does this kind of stuff.
No star in the league is getting battered by his GM/prez. Milsap was just on the trading block after the team had a slow start and the fire sale went up, did he tweet "THE MILLS ARE SAP IN THE CRYING RIVER OF A DYING BREED" some stupid Highschool cryptic sht thats so transparent..
Think about it, NO PRESIDENT IN THE LEAGUE TWEET N CRITICIZES HIS, best player more than phil
Even wild ass cousins doesn't get battered at and poked at in the press by the president, it's usually the coach and the player maybe (larry brown, marbury ome to mind)
This is just no way to do business, just crazy unprofessional and wack. Taking shots at a player through 3rd parties and your right in his face...This is our leader..wow
Nalod wrote:CrushAlot wrote:Nalod wrote:I have come to like melo. There is no need for a "hero" or a "villain" here.Phil ruined his trade value when he gave him the ntc and the trade kicker.
Its also high time Melo gets called out a bit as Phil did go out and get all kinds of nice pieces for Melo this year and the guy is just wanting to do his thing, not the team thing.For all those Phil haters, go back and read all the things melo said about sacrificing his game, and what not. I do believe he had good intentions, and I don't hate him for it.
I said last weeks about the "Scorpion and the Frog"........Its Melo's nature!!! Phil said you can't change his spots...........Melo is a nice guy, maybe too nice? Thats ok. Maybe phil feels like Melo sold him about "winning" and phil caved and gave him the NTC. I don't know.
I don't have to have hate on Melo to want him traded.Maybe Melo does not want to play 4th fiddle in Clev. Even for a run at a chip?
Phil didn't ruin Melo's trade value, why? cuz it was not that high to begin with!!!!If he declined it, we lose melo for nothing then?
no one else was giving him a NTC
Jmpasq wrote:Nalod wrote:CrushAlot wrote:Nalod wrote:I have come to like melo. There is no need for a "hero" or a "villain" here.Phil ruined his trade value when he gave him the ntc and the trade kicker.
Its also high time Melo gets called out a bit as Phil did go out and get all kinds of nice pieces for Melo this year and the guy is just wanting to do his thing, not the team thing.For all those Phil haters, go back and read all the things melo said about sacrificing his game, and what not. I do believe he had good intentions, and I don't hate him for it.
I said last weeks about the "Scorpion and the Frog"........Its Melo's nature!!! Phil said you can't change his spots...........Melo is a nice guy, maybe too nice? Thats ok. Maybe phil feels like Melo sold him about "winning" and phil caved and gave him the NTC. I don't know.
I don't have to have hate on Melo to want him traded.Maybe Melo does not want to play 4th fiddle in Clev. Even for a run at a chip?
Phil didn't ruin Melo's trade value, why? cuz it was not that high to begin with!!!!If he declined it, we lose melo for nothing then?
no one else was giving him a NTC
No one got that far into negotiations..
Also
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martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
So, he was not allowed to trade the draft picks before 2018. Back in 2014, a pick in 2018 was not very enticing, the GM who got it might well be fired before it was time to use it. I remember at least a few rumors about the Knicks considering making a trade offer for someone and thinking about including the 2018 pick... because that has always been the earliest trade he could make.
So, he gets credit for not trading the picks... but his hands were sort of tied for a while on actually even having the option to include a first round pick in a trade.
crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
crzymdups wrote:The other thing worth nothing about Phil - the Melo trade cost the Knicks first round pick in 2014, the Bargnani trade in 2016... so Phil could not trade the 2015 or 2017 first round picks due to the Stepien rule. He could trade the 2015 pick only on draft night and indeed he tried to, because he wasn't sold on KP. We almost wound up with Trey Lyles or Kaminsky instead...So, he was not allowed to trade the draft picks before 2018. Back in 2014, a pick in 2018 was not very enticing, the GM who got it might well be fired before it was time to use it. I remember at least a few rumors about the Knicks considering making a trade offer for someone and thinking about including the 2018 pick... because that has always been the earliest trade he could make.
So, he gets credit for not trading the picks... but his hands were sort of tied for a while on actually even having the option to include a first round pick in a trade.
You have no idea about this at all. Phil's guy Gaines told Phil to draft KP even if we had the #1 pick. These trade rumors come from all over the place. For all any of us know, Phil never shopped the pick at all, outside of maybe due diligence, and made up his mind on KP the minute he saw him workout. Of course, maybe that wasn't the case, but neither you or I or anyone else outside of Phil's inner circle have anyway of knowing that, so assuming that is the case is completely baseless and wrong.
knicks1248 wrote:
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
agree 100% with these two points.
particularly the last - FA are gonna see how Melo was treated, but also DWill, Afflalo, Rolo, Noah, etc. Not exactly a place to go to build your brand or succeed on the court. Even if Melo doesn't get traded... Phil has done an insane amount of damage to his own reputation around the league with this.