Knicks · Phil with the giant left hook to Melo's jaw / reputation (page 7)
djsunyc wrote:after hundreds of email requests, i have decided to chime in on this :)this is as impartial a review i can make when it comes to how i perceive phil and his tenure so far. i will ramble a bit so bear with me...
i think porzingis is as good a prospect as you can get in the lottery. does that mean he will be a superstar? no. but he has the potential to be one. he could easily just end up being as good as bosh was in his miami days - a high level 3rd wheel but that's still a good player.
many of us want our players to be something they are not. and when the team is not a good one, those players values become even more inflated. to relate that to your squad, when you sit back and evaluate players like hernangomez, baker, kuz and holliday, i think you have to really look at their cons more than their pros to really figure out where they fit in today's nba. i think hernangomez, kuz and holliday can be solid 15-20 min bench players for a good team. i mean a good team needs role players and bench role players are important but none of them show the skill and defense to be legit starters. kuz is 27 so he is a finished product. holliday i think can hit the 3 and play some defense but for him to start, he would have to be your worst starter surrounded by 4 potential all star type players to win. hernangomez has shown rebounding skill but overall, he is too slowfooted in today's nba and will get destroyed by starting guards. teams would would blitz pick n rolls all day and score easy on him. therefore he doesn't project to be a starter but he would be a serviceable backup big. imho, ron baker is a fringe nba player and if he's getting 15-20 mins a night, your team is a really bad one. look at backup pg's on bad teams - dj augustin, jameer nelson, even the guy from philly - they are all better than him and those teams are terrible.
my point is that many fans over value players on their teams that just aren't that great. we constantly think backups could start but that's just not the case. i'm speaking from experience as i've overvalued players on the raptors but not until we started winning do you really know how a player can slot into that environment.
imho, phil does not know how to build a basketball team. chemistry, cohesion, culture and talent - all things he has failed in bringing to the knicks. he spent 2 years trying to implement an archaic system (yes it's archaic b/c you need top 5 players to run it). if it's a quality system, then you at least would have chemistry and cohesion even if the wins may not be there. but the knicks did not have that. he then thought adding rose to a team with melo and having a center like noah would expedite wins - again, another fail.
in today's nba, you need guards/wings (and a pg) that can not only score well but also distribute. at the very best, rose is a scorer but not a distributer. adding that to melo was never going to work. melo has won in this league before (and my definition of won is over .500 and making playoffs consistently) - and the teams he's won with included a distributing pg/leader. and in phil's tenure, he has not provided one. he did not recognize melo is a scorer and that's it. he needs to be the recipient of guards passes, not the initiator. in fact, his love for the triangle actually devalues the importance of a pg which is the complete opposite direction the nba is going today.
he does have a big that can stretch it out which does follow nba trends in porzingis but not bringing in guards that fit today's nba is the #1 reason why the knicks haven't won. there is absolutely zero evidence he knows how to put together a roster...and that's the biggest argument against him.
melo - you may not like him as a player but publicly, he has been professional and he has not thrown management under the bus as far as i can tell. but phil tweeting like he did shows that the culture of the team is the same as it's always been. everyone out for themselves. he didn't change anything.
what he's done that's different is that he hasn't traded future firsts - which for the knicks is amazing. but using that to laud him is also a bit shortsighted as you're only comparing him to past knicks gm's instead of comparing him to his peers around the league.
overall, i think he's done a bad job. the biggest issue to me is that i don't think he knows how to build a team in today's nba. but by not being 100% reckless, he could benefit or get lucky (and every gm needs luck) via the draft. time will tell but imho, i would cut bait with not only melo but phil and hire a no-name guy from a successful organization. ego in the front office does not work imho.
sorry for the ramble. now back to the politics thread :)
Couldn't agree more!!!!!!
Chandler wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:Chandler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Bahahaha. Keving Ding? What a Fucking Ding Dong. The blogger with as much NBA experience as a high school boy? He takes all the hater shit said about Melo over the las few years and the idiots on here buy it. Cuz it has nothing to do with getting hits on the net. And what better way is there but to feed the haters.My favorite part of the article. PHIL HAS BROUGHT OVER EXPERIENCE VETS TO SURROUND HIM, TWICE1 GTFOH!!! You mean Robin fuckin Lopez? Aflalo? The broken down Rose and Noah? Cuz i'm sure you guys think they are All Stars. Yeah can see it now. Watch put LBJ, Love and Irving...Here come Melo AA and Rolo. They must have been really scared with that sight. LMAO.
Herre is a pic of your boy. You think he was in favor of letting Lin go? You think he blames Melo? IS this DK7th? Think so!
You haters keep going with all the obscure personal shit to support your hate for the guy. It will be over soon. And you can sit on here every night and complain how the misfits are not turning out to what you experts thought them to be. Think the basketball gods have it right, why give a chip to a bunch of whinning no talent recognizing haters.
are you trying to ironic? That's some pretty racist crap there. I can only hope you leave when Melo does, or that you're banned for racism and calling everyone an idiot
Nothing racist about what he wrote...stop being so damn sensitive because he called everyone out and this non-sense
You're not serious are you? Posts a picture of the writer to show he's Asian and then impute his motive was because Lin was run out of town by Melo -- i.e., that he has some ax to grind
Give me a break! It's not about being sensitive. It's about keeping things to reasonable expectations of civility. He should be ashamed and so should you if you honestly think that wasn't racist
Thank you. I am of Asian origin and I definitely agree with your take on that post. It's repulsive and uncalled for. This type of stereotyping is inherently racist.
Chandler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Chandler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Bahahaha. Keving Ding? What a Fucking Ding Dong. The blogger with as much NBA experience as a high school boy? He takes all the hater shit said about Melo over the las few years and the idiots on here buy it. Cuz it has nothing to do with getting hits on the net. And what better way is there but to feed the haters.My favorite part of the article. PHIL HAS BROUGHT OVER EXPERIENCE VETS TO SURROUND HIM, TWICE1 GTFOH!!! You mean Robin fuckin Lopez? Aflalo? The broken down Rose and Noah? Cuz i'm sure you guys think they are All Stars. Yeah can see it now. Watch put LBJ, Love and Irving...Here come Melo AA and Rolo. They must have been really scared with that sight. LMAO.
Herre is a pic of your boy. You think he was in favor of letting Lin go? You think he blames Melo? IS this DK7th? Think so!
You haters keep going with all the obscure personal shit to support your hate for the guy. It will be over soon. And you can sit on here every night and complain how the misfits are not turning out to what you experts thought them to be. Think the basketball gods have it right, why give a chip to a bunch of whinning no talent recognizing haters.
are you trying to ironic? That's some pretty racist crap there. I can only hope you leave when Melo does, or that you're banned for racism and calling everyone an idiot
Explain the racist part? A guy having a hard on for a pro athlete of same ethnicity? Wow what a shocker. So pointing out that every asian loved Yao is racist? And Dk7th was a Melo poster on here, dont know if you think its something else? And ofcourse that is my point. Any Lin supporter equals Melo hate. Any Gallo supporter equals Melo hate. Congrats!
dk7 also had some very overt racist posts. You're in unique company
Oh ikay. So that was what your suggesting. Well would disagree. Don't think I have to defend myself on that front. Still waiting to see what you thought was racist. Your just fishing and assuming, Just like you do with everything else.
martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.
In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.
Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.
Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.
And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?
And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."
Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.
That is such a weak argument. Every game, on both ends of the floor. How hard is that to do when you have been given a Max deal with a NTC and are the so-called leader of the team? That is the bare minimum we should expect our players and ESPECIALLY our team leader to do. This is the guy who was complicit with FORCING his way to NY by stripping the team of assets.
Every game for every minute of every game. Not just once a month when the game is close. And when your shot is off, play some defense, get a shit-ton of rebounds, play some bad-ass help defense for the 30+ minutes you are on the court. And please point out to me just ONE GAME THIS YEAR that you can help me identify where Melo played some very good defense. And I'll even accept 100% effort with bad technique as good enough. Just 1 game. I don't think ANYONE can do that.
There have been plenty of games Melo has given a good effort - wins against Charlotte, Minnesota, Portland, games against Atlanta, Chicago. He's also 32yrs old and playing way too many minutes. Also, the Knicks defensive scheme never seems to change - I don't think the entire team scheme should be laid on Melo's lap. Their system, ever since Fisher left, has allowed constant open threes. That's Rambis's philosophy and I think it is deeply wrong for today's game. Fisher used to force guys off the line and it worked pretty well. As soon as Rambis took over last season in February, we started allowing tons of open threes. I don't blame Melo for that.
KP is an elite rim protector, but our defensive scheme and lineups have KP chasing around stretch 4s on the perimeter. Melo shouldn't be playing the 3 at this point of his career - since 2012-3 we've all known his best position is PF, where he is actually an above average defender by the numbers. Is the lineup Melo's fault? Or is that roster construction Phil's fault? Or is it the coach? I think it is crappy to scapegoat Melo for a team that has been a mess from roster construction, coaching, lineups, on down. Is it Melo's fault the Knicks defense is much better when KOQ starts over Noah? Melo is not an elite defender. Neither is James Harden. You can win with those guys by playing to their strengths, instead of griping about their weaknesses.
Look, I agree it is time for Melo to go. He's not in his prime anymore and he can't deliver an all-star performance every night by any stretch. The team is ready to rebuild through the draft and around KP and Willy. But I disagree with Phil's tactics. The articles being written around the league, not just in NY, seem to prove that league-wide people are not impressed by how Phil has handled this. It will have negative consequences down the road. I'm guessing as early as this summer in Free Agency.
That's the wrong answer. The answer should be that he has given 100% effort EVERY GAME ON BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. Melo is averaging 33.8 minutes a game, least of his career. You give 100% effort all the time and when you are dog tired, you ask to be taken out or take a game off completely if absolutely necessary.
I am talking about effort, not execution. I don't expect a perfect player but I do expect perfect effort.
That's just a wildly unrealistic expectation. How many players in the league do you think meet that standard? I'm not trying to be facetious, but I think it is unrealistic to think 32yr old Melo coming off two knee debridements and playing with a shoulder injury is going to play all out for 34minutes a night at this stage of his career. Melo should be averaging even fewer minutes. Wade is averaging 30mpg this year.
Though again, I think the main issue on defense is the scheme. And the starting lineup has three guys on the wrong side of 30 - Noah is the biggest culprit, Rose would be next, Melo would be next. All three are a problem on defense. Starting them together is suicide. Our best stretches of the season coincided with Noah being out earlier in the year, before the wheels came flying off. I love Noah... but his game and his lateral movement is toast. He shouldn't have been signed for 4yrs.Rose should've been suspended when he went AWOL and benched for his defensive effort, far moreso than Melo, IMHO. Rose going AWOL is to me when the season really hit the point of no return. And, yes, I do think Jackson should have said something publicly and stood up for Hornacek and his team and suspended Rose. Guys have been openly defying Hornacek on the floor since Rose got back. Rose, KOQ, Melo. Phil needed to step in publicly there and make an example of Rose. He didn't, season went even further off the rails.
LeBron at the same age averages 37.6 minutes a game. And BTW you just admitted that Melo doesn't give 100% effort because he is 32rs old coming off of debridement, as if that is an excuse. If Melo needs to cut back to 30, so be it. But during those minutes, 100% effort on offense and defense. You don't get to take off 1 side of the court. Ever. Why isn't the bare minimum expectation for a team leader to give 100% effort every game? WTF is that? We trying to win games that lead to playoffs or something else? That's culture. That's leadership.
I don't know why you keep talking about defensive schemes. I don't even care if they are the worst in the league, just give 100% effort all the time.
Do you work out???..I work out..I have work outs where I go 25, 30, 35, and 40 mins non stop quick aerobic work outs...The recovery for the 25 and 40 mins are vastly different..I can recover from a 25 min aerobic workout in 24 hours...The 40 min workout can take 48 to 72 hours to completely recover..At 32 years old, I'm convinced playing him full quarters has had a pronounced affect on his ability to recover and thus move quickly..It's affected his defense and overall game..He is the oldest person and the only one on the team that does this..It's insane..
Pardon me if I am mistaken (but I don't think I am) but you and me are old fucks and not professional athletes. Why you comparing Melo to us?
..touché
Uptown wrote:djsunyc wrote:after hundreds of email requests, i have decided to chime in on this :)this is as impartial a review i can make when it comes to how i perceive phil and his tenure so far. i will ramble a bit so bear with me...
i think porzingis is as good a prospect as you can get in the lottery. does that mean he will be a superstar? no. but he has the potential to be one. he could easily just end up being as good as bosh was in his miami days - a high level 3rd wheel but that's still a good player.
many of us want our players to be something they are not. and when the team is not a good one, those players values become even more inflated. to relate that to your squad, when you sit back and evaluate players like hernangomez, baker, kuz and holliday, i think you have to really look at their cons more than their pros to really figure out where they fit in today's nba. i think hernangomez, kuz and holliday can be solid 15-20 min bench players for a good team. i mean a good team needs role players and bench role players are important but none of them show the skill and defense to be legit starters. kuz is 27 so he is a finished product. holliday i think can hit the 3 and play some defense but for him to start, he would have to be your worst starter surrounded by 4 potential all star type players to win. hernangomez has shown rebounding skill but overall, he is too slowfooted in today's nba and will get destroyed by starting guards. teams would would blitz pick n rolls all day and score easy on him. therefore he doesn't project to be a starter but he would be a serviceable backup big. imho, ron baker is a fringe nba player and if he's getting 15-20 mins a night, your team is a really bad one. look at backup pg's on bad teams - dj augustin, jameer nelson, even the guy from philly - they are all better than him and those teams are terrible.
my point is that many fans over value players on their teams that just aren't that great. we constantly think backups could start but that's just not the case. i'm speaking from experience as i've overvalued players on the raptors but not until we started winning do you really know how a player can slot into that environment.
imho, phil does not know how to build a basketball team. chemistry, cohesion, culture and talent - all things he has failed in bringing to the knicks. he spent 2 years trying to implement an archaic system (yes it's archaic b/c you need top 5 players to run it). if it's a quality system, then you at least would have chemistry and cohesion even if the wins may not be there. but the knicks did not have that. he then thought adding rose to a team with melo and having a center like noah would expedite wins - again, another fail.
in today's nba, you need guards/wings (and a pg) that can not only score well but also distribute. at the very best, rose is a scorer but not a distributer. adding that to melo was never going to work. melo has won in this league before (and my definition of won is over .500 and making playoffs consistently) - and the teams he's won with included a distributing pg/leader. and in phil's tenure, he has not provided one. he did not recognize melo is a scorer and that's it. he needs to be the recipient of guards passes, not the initiator. in fact, his love for the triangle actually devalues the importance of a pg which is the complete opposite direction the nba is going today.
he does have a big that can stretch it out which does follow nba trends in porzingis but not bringing in guards that fit today's nba is the #1 reason why the knicks haven't won. there is absolutely zero evidence he knows how to put together a roster...and that's the biggest argument against him.
melo - you may not like him as a player but publicly, he has been professional and he has not thrown management under the bus as far as i can tell. but phil tweeting like he did shows that the culture of the team is the same as it's always been. everyone out for themselves. he didn't change anything.
what he's done that's different is that he hasn't traded future firsts - which for the knicks is amazing. but using that to laud him is also a bit shortsighted as you're only comparing him to past knicks gm's instead of comparing him to his peers around the league.
overall, i think he's done a bad job. the biggest issue to me is that i don't think he knows how to build a team in today's nba. but by not being 100% reckless, he could benefit or get lucky (and every gm needs luck) via the draft. time will tell but imho, i would cut bait with not only melo but phil and hire a no-name guy from a successful organization. ego in the front office does not work imho.
sorry for the ramble. now back to the politics thread :)
Couldn't agree more!!!!!!
This is dead on..
Both melo and phil need to go, but I would definitely get rid of phil first. Instead of appreciating melo like a designated hitter, and instead of surrounding him with tough defensive players, and a tough coach. He dose the opposite and blames melo for the teams down fall..
knicks1248 wrote:Uptown wrote:djsunyc wrote:after hundreds of email requests, i have decided to chime in on this :)this is as impartial a review i can make when it comes to how i perceive phil and his tenure so far. i will ramble a bit so bear with me...
i think porzingis is as good a prospect as you can get in the lottery. does that mean he will be a superstar? no. but he has the potential to be one. he could easily just end up being as good as bosh was in his miami days - a high level 3rd wheel but that's still a good player.
many of us want our players to be something they are not. and when the team is not a good one, those players values become even more inflated. to relate that to your squad, when you sit back and evaluate players like hernangomez, baker, kuz and holliday, i think you have to really look at their cons more than their pros to really figure out where they fit in today's nba. i think hernangomez, kuz and holliday can be solid 15-20 min bench players for a good team. i mean a good team needs role players and bench role players are important but none of them show the skill and defense to be legit starters. kuz is 27 so he is a finished product. holliday i think can hit the 3 and play some defense but for him to start, he would have to be your worst starter surrounded by 4 potential all star type players to win. hernangomez has shown rebounding skill but overall, he is too slowfooted in today's nba and will get destroyed by starting guards. teams would would blitz pick n rolls all day and score easy on him. therefore he doesn't project to be a starter but he would be a serviceable backup big. imho, ron baker is a fringe nba player and if he's getting 15-20 mins a night, your team is a really bad one. look at backup pg's on bad teams - dj augustin, jameer nelson, even the guy from philly - they are all better than him and those teams are terrible.
my point is that many fans over value players on their teams that just aren't that great. we constantly think backups could start but that's just not the case. i'm speaking from experience as i've overvalued players on the raptors but not until we started winning do you really know how a player can slot into that environment.
imho, phil does not know how to build a basketball team. chemistry, cohesion, culture and talent - all things he has failed in bringing to the knicks. he spent 2 years trying to implement an archaic system (yes it's archaic b/c you need top 5 players to run it). if it's a quality system, then you at least would have chemistry and cohesion even if the wins may not be there. but the knicks did not have that. he then thought adding rose to a team with melo and having a center like noah would expedite wins - again, another fail.
in today's nba, you need guards/wings (and a pg) that can not only score well but also distribute. at the very best, rose is a scorer but not a distributer. adding that to melo was never going to work. melo has won in this league before (and my definition of won is over .500 and making playoffs consistently) - and the teams he's won with included a distributing pg/leader. and in phil's tenure, he has not provided one. he did not recognize melo is a scorer and that's it. he needs to be the recipient of guards passes, not the initiator. in fact, his love for the triangle actually devalues the importance of a pg which is the complete opposite direction the nba is going today.
he does have a big that can stretch it out which does follow nba trends in porzingis but not bringing in guards that fit today's nba is the #1 reason why the knicks haven't won. there is absolutely zero evidence he knows how to put together a roster...and that's the biggest argument against him.
melo - you may not like him as a player but publicly, he has been professional and he has not thrown management under the bus as far as i can tell. but phil tweeting like he did shows that the culture of the team is the same as it's always been. everyone out for themselves. he didn't change anything.
what he's done that's different is that he hasn't traded future firsts - which for the knicks is amazing. but using that to laud him is also a bit shortsighted as you're only comparing him to past knicks gm's instead of comparing him to his peers around the league.
overall, i think he's done a bad job. the biggest issue to me is that i don't think he knows how to build a team in today's nba. but by not being 100% reckless, he could benefit or get lucky (and every gm needs luck) via the draft. time will tell but imho, i would cut bait with not only melo but phil and hire a no-name guy from a successful organization. ego in the front office does not work imho.
sorry for the ramble. now back to the politics thread :)
Couldn't agree more!!!!!!
This is dead on..Both melo and phil need to go, but I would definitely get rid of phil first. Instead of appreciating melo like a designated hitter, and instead of surrounding him with tough defensive players, and a tough coach. He dose the opposite and blames melo for the teams down fall..
He blames him? Link that for us.
Where does he say this?
holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.
In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.
Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.
Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.
And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?
And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."
Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.
That is such a weak argument. Every game, on both ends of the floor. How hard is that to do when you have been given a Max deal with a NTC and are the so-called leader of the team? That is the bare minimum we should expect our players and ESPECIALLY our team leader to do. This is the guy who was complicit with FORCING his way to NY by stripping the team of assets.
Every game for every minute of every game. Not just once a month when the game is close. And when your shot is off, play some defense, get a shit-ton of rebounds, play some bad-ass help defense for the 30+ minutes you are on the court. And please point out to me just ONE GAME THIS YEAR that you can help me identify where Melo played some very good defense. And I'll even accept 100% effort with bad technique as good enough. Just 1 game. I don't think ANYONE can do that.
There have been plenty of games Melo has given a good effort - wins against Charlotte, Minnesota, Portland, games against Atlanta, Chicago. He's also 32yrs old and playing way too many minutes. Also, the Knicks defensive scheme never seems to change - I don't think the entire team scheme should be laid on Melo's lap. Their system, ever since Fisher left, has allowed constant open threes. That's Rambis's philosophy and I think it is deeply wrong for today's game. Fisher used to force guys off the line and it worked pretty well. As soon as Rambis took over last season in February, we started allowing tons of open threes. I don't blame Melo for that.
KP is an elite rim protector, but our defensive scheme and lineups have KP chasing around stretch 4s on the perimeter. Melo shouldn't be playing the 3 at this point of his career - since 2012-3 we've all known his best position is PF, where he is actually an above average defender by the numbers. Is the lineup Melo's fault? Or is that roster construction Phil's fault? Or is it the coach? I think it is crappy to scapegoat Melo for a team that has been a mess from roster construction, coaching, lineups, on down. Is it Melo's fault the Knicks defense is much better when KOQ starts over Noah? Melo is not an elite defender. Neither is James Harden. You can win with those guys by playing to their strengths, instead of griping about their weaknesses.
Look, I agree it is time for Melo to go. He's not in his prime anymore and he can't deliver an all-star performance every night by any stretch. The team is ready to rebuild through the draft and around KP and Willy. But I disagree with Phil's tactics. The articles being written around the league, not just in NY, seem to prove that league-wide people are not impressed by how Phil has handled this. It will have negative consequences down the road. I'm guessing as early as this summer in Free Agency.
That's the wrong answer. The answer should be that he has given 100% effort EVERY GAME ON BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. Melo is averaging 33.8 minutes a game, least of his career. You give 100% effort all the time and when you are dog tired, you ask to be taken out or take a game off completely if absolutely necessary.
I am talking about effort, not execution. I don't expect a perfect player but I do expect perfect effort.
That's just a wildly unrealistic expectation. How many players in the league do you think meet that standard? I'm not trying to be facetious, but I think it is unrealistic to think 32yr old Melo coming off two knee debridements and playing with a shoulder injury is going to play all out for 34minutes a night at this stage of his career. Melo should be averaging even fewer minutes. Wade is averaging 30mpg this year.
Though again, I think the main issue on defense is the scheme. And the starting lineup has three guys on the wrong side of 30 - Noah is the biggest culprit, Rose would be next, Melo would be next. All three are a problem on defense. Starting them together is suicide. Our best stretches of the season coincided with Noah being out earlier in the year, before the wheels came flying off. I love Noah... but his game and his lateral movement is toast. He shouldn't have been signed for 4yrs.Rose should've been suspended when he went AWOL and benched for his defensive effort, far moreso than Melo, IMHO. Rose going AWOL is to me when the season really hit the point of no return. And, yes, I do think Jackson should have said something publicly and stood up for Hornacek and his team and suspended Rose. Guys have been openly defying Hornacek on the floor since Rose got back. Rose, KOQ, Melo. Phil needed to step in publicly there and make an example of Rose. He didn't, season went even further off the rails.
LeBron at the same age averages 37.6 minutes a game. And BTW you just admitted that Melo doesn't give 100% effort because he is 32rs old coming off of debridement, as if that is an excuse. If Melo needs to cut back to 30, so be it. But during those minutes, 100% effort on offense and defense. You don't get to take off 1 side of the court. Ever. Why isn't the bare minimum expectation for a team leader to give 100% effort every game? WTF is that? We trying to win games that lead to playoffs or something else? That's culture. That's leadership.
I don't know why you keep talking about defensive schemes. I don't even care if they are the worst in the league, just give 100% effort all the time.
Do you work out???..I work out..I have work outs where I go 25, 30, 35, and 40 mins non stop quick aerobic work outs...The recovery for the 25 and 40 mins are vastly different..I can recover from a 25 min aerobic workout in 24 hours...The 40 min workout can take 48 to 72 hours to completely recover..At 32 years old, I'm convinced playing him full quarters has had a pronounced affect on his ability to recover and thus move quickly..It's affected his defense and overall game..He is the oldest person and the only one on the team that does this..It's insane..
Pardon me if I am mistaken (but I don't think I am) but you and me are old fucks and not professional athletes. Why you comparing Melo to us?
and not for nothing, but does your wife complain when you need 2 days to recover from a 40 minute aerobic workout?! 
martin wrote:holfresh like Melo is clearly grumpy because he's not getting the call when he wants to take it to the holeholfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.
In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.
Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.
Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.
And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?
And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."
Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.
That is such a weak argument. Every game, on both ends of the floor. How hard is that to do when you have been given a Max deal with a NTC and are the so-called leader of the team? That is the bare minimum we should expect our players and ESPECIALLY our team leader to do. This is the guy who was complicit with FORCING his way to NY by stripping the team of assets.
Every game for every minute of every game. Not just once a month when the game is close. And when your shot is off, play some defense, get a shit-ton of rebounds, play some bad-ass help defense for the 30+ minutes you are on the court. And please point out to me just ONE GAME THIS YEAR that you can help me identify where Melo played some very good defense. And I'll even accept 100% effort with bad technique as good enough. Just 1 game. I don't think ANYONE can do that.
There have been plenty of games Melo has given a good effort - wins against Charlotte, Minnesota, Portland, games against Atlanta, Chicago. He's also 32yrs old and playing way too many minutes. Also, the Knicks defensive scheme never seems to change - I don't think the entire team scheme should be laid on Melo's lap. Their system, ever since Fisher left, has allowed constant open threes. That's Rambis's philosophy and I think it is deeply wrong for today's game. Fisher used to force guys off the line and it worked pretty well. As soon as Rambis took over last season in February, we started allowing tons of open threes. I don't blame Melo for that.
KP is an elite rim protector, but our defensive scheme and lineups have KP chasing around stretch 4s on the perimeter. Melo shouldn't be playing the 3 at this point of his career - since 2012-3 we've all known his best position is PF, where he is actually an above average defender by the numbers. Is the lineup Melo's fault? Or is that roster construction Phil's fault? Or is it the coach? I think it is crappy to scapegoat Melo for a team that has been a mess from roster construction, coaching, lineups, on down. Is it Melo's fault the Knicks defense is much better when KOQ starts over Noah? Melo is not an elite defender. Neither is James Harden. You can win with those guys by playing to their strengths, instead of griping about their weaknesses.
Look, I agree it is time for Melo to go. He's not in his prime anymore and he can't deliver an all-star performance every night by any stretch. The team is ready to rebuild through the draft and around KP and Willy. But I disagree with Phil's tactics. The articles being written around the league, not just in NY, seem to prove that league-wide people are not impressed by how Phil has handled this. It will have negative consequences down the road. I'm guessing as early as this summer in Free Agency.
That's the wrong answer. The answer should be that he has given 100% effort EVERY GAME ON BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. Melo is averaging 33.8 minutes a game, least of his career. You give 100% effort all the time and when you are dog tired, you ask to be taken out or take a game off completely if absolutely necessary.
I am talking about effort, not execution. I don't expect a perfect player but I do expect perfect effort.
That's just a wildly unrealistic expectation. How many players in the league do you think meet that standard? I'm not trying to be facetious, but I think it is unrealistic to think 32yr old Melo coming off two knee debridements and playing with a shoulder injury is going to play all out for 34minutes a night at this stage of his career. Melo should be averaging even fewer minutes. Wade is averaging 30mpg this year.
Though again, I think the main issue on defense is the scheme. And the starting lineup has three guys on the wrong side of 30 - Noah is the biggest culprit, Rose would be next, Melo would be next. All three are a problem on defense. Starting them together is suicide. Our best stretches of the season coincided with Noah being out earlier in the year, before the wheels came flying off. I love Noah... but his game and his lateral movement is toast. He shouldn't have been signed for 4yrs.Rose should've been suspended when he went AWOL and benched for his defensive effort, far moreso than Melo, IMHO. Rose going AWOL is to me when the season really hit the point of no return. And, yes, I do think Jackson should have said something publicly and stood up for Hornacek and his team and suspended Rose. Guys have been openly defying Hornacek on the floor since Rose got back. Rose, KOQ, Melo. Phil needed to step in publicly there and make an example of Rose. He didn't, season went even further off the rails.
LeBron at the same age averages 37.6 minutes a game. And BTW you just admitted that Melo doesn't give 100% effort because he is 32rs old coming off of debridement, as if that is an excuse. If Melo needs to cut back to 30, so be it. But during those minutes, 100% effort on offense and defense. You don't get to take off 1 side of the court. Ever. Why isn't the bare minimum expectation for a team leader to give 100% effort every game? WTF is that? We trying to win games that lead to playoffs or something else? That's culture. That's leadership.
I don't know why you keep talking about defensive schemes. I don't even care if they are the worst in the league, just give 100% effort all the time.
Do you work out???..I work out..I have work outs where I go 25, 30, 35, and 40 mins non stop quick aerobic work outs...The recovery for the 25 and 40 mins are vastly different..I can recover from a 25 min aerobic workout in 24 hours...The 40 min workout can take 48 to 72 hours to completely recover..At 32 years old, I'm convinced playing him full quarters has had a pronounced affect on his ability to recover and thus move quickly..It's affected his defense and overall game..He is the oldest person and the only one on the team that does this..It's insane..
Pardon me if I am mistaken (but I don't think I am) but you and me are old fucks and not professional athletes. Why you comparing Melo to us?
and not for nothing, but does your wife complain when you need 2 days to recover from a 40 minute aerobic workout?!
knicks1248 wrote:Yea.. lets build around Melo. How many picks you want to trade to get these guys around him? I am sure we could more Willy for PJ Tucker. Maybe this year's pick, Lance and Jennings for Rubio who is a good defender at PG. Maybe move KP for some more help as Melo is a 4 and we want to build around him... hell, bring back Woodson and go ISO Melo. That should get us into the playoffs. Mission accomplished. Yawn.Uptown wrote:djsunyc wrote:after hundreds of email requests, i have decided to chime in on this :)this is as impartial a review i can make when it comes to how i perceive phil and his tenure so far. i will ramble a bit so bear with me...
i think porzingis is as good a prospect as you can get in the lottery. does that mean he will be a superstar? no. but he has the potential to be one. he could easily just end up being as good as bosh was in his miami days - a high level 3rd wheel but that's still a good player.
many of us want our players to be something they are not. and when the team is not a good one, those players values become even more inflated. to relate that to your squad, when you sit back and evaluate players like hernangomez, baker, kuz and holliday, i think you have to really look at their cons more than their pros to really figure out where they fit in today's nba. i think hernangomez, kuz and holliday can be solid 15-20 min bench players for a good team. i mean a good team needs role players and bench role players are important but none of them show the skill and defense to be legit starters. kuz is 27 so he is a finished product. holliday i think can hit the 3 and play some defense but for him to start, he would have to be your worst starter surrounded by 4 potential all star type players to win. hernangomez has shown rebounding skill but overall, he is too slowfooted in today's nba and will get destroyed by starting guards. teams would would blitz pick n rolls all day and score easy on him. therefore he doesn't project to be a starter but he would be a serviceable backup big. imho, ron baker is a fringe nba player and if he's getting 15-20 mins a night, your team is a really bad one. look at backup pg's on bad teams - dj augustin, jameer nelson, even the guy from philly - they are all better than him and those teams are terrible.
my point is that many fans over value players on their teams that just aren't that great. we constantly think backups could start but that's just not the case. i'm speaking from experience as i've overvalued players on the raptors but not until we started winning do you really know how a player can slot into that environment.
imho, phil does not know how to build a basketball team. chemistry, cohesion, culture and talent - all things he has failed in bringing to the knicks. he spent 2 years trying to implement an archaic system (yes it's archaic b/c you need top 5 players to run it). if it's a quality system, then you at least would have chemistry and cohesion even if the wins may not be there. but the knicks did not have that. he then thought adding rose to a team with melo and having a center like noah would expedite wins - again, another fail.
in today's nba, you need guards/wings (and a pg) that can not only score well but also distribute. at the very best, rose is a scorer but not a distributer. adding that to melo was never going to work. melo has won in this league before (and my definition of won is over .500 and making playoffs consistently) - and the teams he's won with included a distributing pg/leader. and in phil's tenure, he has not provided one. he did not recognize melo is a scorer and that's it. he needs to be the recipient of guards passes, not the initiator. in fact, his love for the triangle actually devalues the importance of a pg which is the complete opposite direction the nba is going today.
he does have a big that can stretch it out which does follow nba trends in porzingis but not bringing in guards that fit today's nba is the #1 reason why the knicks haven't won. there is absolutely zero evidence he knows how to put together a roster...and that's the biggest argument against him.
melo - you may not like him as a player but publicly, he has been professional and he has not thrown management under the bus as far as i can tell. but phil tweeting like he did shows that the culture of the team is the same as it's always been. everyone out for themselves. he didn't change anything.
what he's done that's different is that he hasn't traded future firsts - which for the knicks is amazing. but using that to laud him is also a bit shortsighted as you're only comparing him to past knicks gm's instead of comparing him to his peers around the league.
overall, i think he's done a bad job. the biggest issue to me is that i don't think he knows how to build a team in today's nba. but by not being 100% reckless, he could benefit or get lucky (and every gm needs luck) via the draft. time will tell but imho, i would cut bait with not only melo but phil and hire a no-name guy from a successful organization. ego in the front office does not work imho.
sorry for the ramble. now back to the politics thread :)
Couldn't agree more!!!!!!
This is dead on..Both melo and phil need to go, but I would definitely get rid of phil first. Instead of appreciating melo like a designated hitter, and instead of surrounding him with tough defensive players, and a tough coach. He dose the opposite and blames melo for the teams down fall..
martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.
What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.
How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.
None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.
Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.
He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).
Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.
So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS
I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest pussy in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.
Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every fucking night.
I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.
They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.
In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.
Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.
Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.
And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?
And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."
Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.
That is such a weak argument. Every game, on both ends of the floor. How hard is that to do when you have been given a Max deal with a NTC and are the so-called leader of the team? That is the bare minimum we should expect our players and ESPECIALLY our team leader to do. This is the guy who was complicit with FORCING his way to NY by stripping the team of assets.
Every game for every minute of every game. Not just once a month when the game is close. And when your shot is off, play some defense, get a shit-ton of rebounds, play some bad-ass help defense for the 30+ minutes you are on the court. And please point out to me just ONE GAME THIS YEAR that you can help me identify where Melo played some very good defense. And I'll even accept 100% effort with bad technique as good enough. Just 1 game. I don't think ANYONE can do that.
There have been plenty of games Melo has given a good effort - wins against Charlotte, Minnesota, Portland, games against Atlanta, Chicago. He's also 32yrs old and playing way too many minutes. Also, the Knicks defensive scheme never seems to change - I don't think the entire team scheme should be laid on Melo's lap. Their system, ever since Fisher left, has allowed constant open threes. That's Rambis's philosophy and I think it is deeply wrong for today's game. Fisher used to force guys off the line and it worked pretty well. As soon as Rambis took over last season in February, we started allowing tons of open threes. I don't blame Melo for that.
KP is an elite rim protector, but our defensive scheme and lineups have KP chasing around stretch 4s on the perimeter. Melo shouldn't be playing the 3 at this point of his career - since 2012-3 we've all known his best position is PF, where he is actually an above average defender by the numbers. Is the lineup Melo's fault? Or is that roster construction Phil's fault? Or is it the coach? I think it is crappy to scapegoat Melo for a team that has been a mess from roster construction, coaching, lineups, on down. Is it Melo's fault the Knicks defense is much better when KOQ starts over Noah? Melo is not an elite defender. Neither is James Harden. You can win with those guys by playing to their strengths, instead of griping about their weaknesses.
Look, I agree it is time for Melo to go. He's not in his prime anymore and he can't deliver an all-star performance every night by any stretch. The team is ready to rebuild through the draft and around KP and Willy. But I disagree with Phil's tactics. The articles being written around the league, not just in NY, seem to prove that league-wide people are not impressed by how Phil has handled this. It will have negative consequences down the road. I'm guessing as early as this summer in Free Agency.
That's the wrong answer. The answer should be that he has given 100% effort EVERY GAME ON BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. Melo is averaging 33.8 minutes a game, least of his career. You give 100% effort all the time and when you are dog tired, you ask to be taken out or take a game off completely if absolutely necessary.
I am talking about effort, not execution. I don't expect a perfect player but I do expect perfect effort.
That's just a wildly unrealistic expectation. How many players in the league do you think meet that standard? I'm not trying to be facetious, but I think it is unrealistic to think 32yr old Melo coming off two knee debridements and playing with a shoulder injury is going to play all out for 34minutes a night at this stage of his career. Melo should be averaging even fewer minutes. Wade is averaging 30mpg this year.
Though again, I think the main issue on defense is the scheme. And the starting lineup has three guys on the wrong side of 30 - Noah is the biggest culprit, Rose would be next, Melo would be next. All three are a problem on defense. Starting them together is suicide. Our best stretches of the season coincided with Noah being out earlier in the year, before the wheels came flying off. I love Noah... but his game and his lateral movement is toast. He shouldn't have been signed for 4yrs.Rose should've been suspended when he went AWOL and benched for his defensive effort, far moreso than Melo, IMHO. Rose going AWOL is to me when the season really hit the point of no return. And, yes, I do think Jackson should have said something publicly and stood up for Hornacek and his team and suspended Rose. Guys have been openly defying Hornacek on the floor since Rose got back. Rose, KOQ, Melo. Phil needed to step in publicly there and make an example of Rose. He didn't, season went even further off the rails.
LeBron at the same age averages 37.6 minutes a game. And BTW you just admitted that Melo doesn't give 100% effort because he is 32rs old coming off of debridement, as if that is an excuse. If Melo needs to cut back to 30, so be it. But during those minutes, 100% effort on offense and defense. You don't get to take off 1 side of the court. Ever. Why isn't the bare minimum expectation for a team leader to give 100% effort every game? WTF is that? We trying to win games that lead to playoffs or something else? That's culture. That's leadership.
I don't know why you keep talking about defensive schemes. I don't even care if they are the worst in the league, just give 100% effort all the time.
Do you work out???..I work out..I have work outs where I go 25, 30, 35, and 40 mins non stop quick aerobic work outs...The recovery for the 25 and 40 mins are vastly different..I can recover from a 25 min aerobic workout in 24 hours...The 40 min workout can take 48 to 72 hours to completely recover..At 32 years old, I'm convinced playing him full quarters has had a pronounced affect on his ability to recover and thus move quickly..It's affected his defense and overall game..He is the oldest person and the only one on the team that does this..It's insane..
Pardon me if I am mistaken (but I don't think I am) but you and me are old fucks and not professional athletes. Why you comparing Melo to us?
and not for nothing, but does your wife complain when you need 2 days to recover from a 40 minute aerobic workout?!
She doesn't which is a little troubling...
fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Yea.. lets build around Melo. How many picks you want to trade to get these guys around him? I am sure we could more Willy for PJ Tucker. Maybe this year's pick, Lance and Jennings for Rubio who is a good defender at PG. Maybe move KP for some more help as Melo is a 4 and we want to build around him... hell, bring back Woodson and go ISO Melo. That should get us into the playoffs. Mission accomplished. Yawn.Uptown wrote:djsunyc wrote:after hundreds of email requests, i have decided to chime in on this :)this is as impartial a review i can make when it comes to how i perceive phil and his tenure so far. i will ramble a bit so bear with me...
i think porzingis is as good a prospect as you can get in the lottery. does that mean he will be a superstar? no. but he has the potential to be one. he could easily just end up being as good as bosh was in his miami days - a high level 3rd wheel but that's still a good player.
many of us want our players to be something they are not. and when the team is not a good one, those players values become even more inflated. to relate that to your squad, when you sit back and evaluate players like hernangomez, baker, kuz and holliday, i think you have to really look at their cons more than their pros to really figure out where they fit in today's nba. i think hernangomez, kuz and holliday can be solid 15-20 min bench players for a good team. i mean a good team needs role players and bench role players are important but none of them show the skill and defense to be legit starters. kuz is 27 so he is a finished product. holliday i think can hit the 3 and play some defense but for him to start, he would have to be your worst starter surrounded by 4 potential all star type players to win. hernangomez has shown rebounding skill but overall, he is too slowfooted in today's nba and will get destroyed by starting guards. teams would would blitz pick n rolls all day and score easy on him. therefore he doesn't project to be a starter but he would be a serviceable backup big. imho, ron baker is a fringe nba player and if he's getting 15-20 mins a night, your team is a really bad one. look at backup pg's on bad teams - dj augustin, jameer nelson, even the guy from philly - they are all better than him and those teams are terrible.
my point is that many fans over value players on their teams that just aren't that great. we constantly think backups could start but that's just not the case. i'm speaking from experience as i've overvalued players on the raptors but not until we started winning do you really know how a player can slot into that environment.
imho, phil does not know how to build a basketball team. chemistry, cohesion, culture and talent - all things he has failed in bringing to the knicks. he spent 2 years trying to implement an archaic system (yes it's archaic b/c you need top 5 players to run it). if it's a quality system, then you at least would have chemistry and cohesion even if the wins may not be there. but the knicks did not have that. he then thought adding rose to a team with melo and having a center like noah would expedite wins - again, another fail.
in today's nba, you need guards/wings (and a pg) that can not only score well but also distribute. at the very best, rose is a scorer but not a distributer. adding that to melo was never going to work. melo has won in this league before (and my definition of won is over .500 and making playoffs consistently) - and the teams he's won with included a distributing pg/leader. and in phil's tenure, he has not provided one. he did not recognize melo is a scorer and that's it. he needs to be the recipient of guards passes, not the initiator. in fact, his love for the triangle actually devalues the importance of a pg which is the complete opposite direction the nba is going today.
he does have a big that can stretch it out which does follow nba trends in porzingis but not bringing in guards that fit today's nba is the #1 reason why the knicks haven't won. there is absolutely zero evidence he knows how to put together a roster...and that's the biggest argument against him.
melo - you may not like him as a player but publicly, he has been professional and he has not thrown management under the bus as far as i can tell. but phil tweeting like he did shows that the culture of the team is the same as it's always been. everyone out for themselves. he didn't change anything.
what he's done that's different is that he hasn't traded future firsts - which for the knicks is amazing. but using that to laud him is also a bit shortsighted as you're only comparing him to past knicks gm's instead of comparing him to his peers around the league.
overall, i think he's done a bad job. the biggest issue to me is that i don't think he knows how to build a team in today's nba. but by not being 100% reckless, he could benefit or get lucky (and every gm needs luck) via the draft. time will tell but imho, i would cut bait with not only melo but phil and hire a no-name guy from a successful organization. ego in the front office does not work imho.
sorry for the ramble. now back to the politics thread :)
Couldn't agree more!!!!!!
This is dead on..Both melo and phil need to go, but I would definitely get rid of phil first. Instead of appreciating melo like a designated hitter, and instead of surrounding him with tough defensive players, and a tough coach. He dose the opposite and blames melo for the teams down fall..
Also Noah and Lee are actually known for being defensive players. Now they may have fallen off but the idea was to add some defense to the team. Rose is healthy and there's no reason why he LOAFS on D. Melo is healthy and should've sacrificed some scoring and played more D and passed more!!!
These are the real reasons this team loses. Blaming Phil is just too convenient and it's wrong. The PLAYERS that are being paid big bucks need to lay it all on the line every game. We haven't seen that. It all starts with your teams BEST players. So if Rose and Melo don't bust it, then it totally drags the team down.
nixluva wrote:Nix there are some hear that actually blame Phil on the player's lack of effort. His comment about Melo's ball hogging submarined the season. Imagine that?fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Yea.. lets build around Melo. How many picks you want to trade to get these guys around him? I am sure we could more Willy for PJ Tucker. Maybe this year's pick, Lance and Jennings for Rubio who is a good defender at PG. Maybe move KP for some more help as Melo is a 4 and we want to build around him... hell, bring back Woodson and go ISO Melo. That should get us into the playoffs. Mission accomplished. Yawn.Uptown wrote:djsunyc wrote:after hundreds of email requests, i have decided to chime in on this :)this is as impartial a review i can make when it comes to how i perceive phil and his tenure so far. i will ramble a bit so bear with me...
i think porzingis is as good a prospect as you can get in the lottery. does that mean he will be a superstar? no. but he has the potential to be one. he could easily just end up being as good as bosh was in his miami days - a high level 3rd wheel but that's still a good player.
many of us want our players to be something they are not. and when the team is not a good one, those players values become even more inflated. to relate that to your squad, when you sit back and evaluate players like hernangomez, baker, kuz and holliday, i think you have to really look at their cons more than their pros to really figure out where they fit in today's nba. i think hernangomez, kuz and holliday can be solid 15-20 min bench players for a good team. i mean a good team needs role players and bench role players are important but none of them show the skill and defense to be legit starters. kuz is 27 so he is a finished product. holliday i think can hit the 3 and play some defense but for him to start, he would have to be your worst starter surrounded by 4 potential all star type players to win. hernangomez has shown rebounding skill but overall, he is too slowfooted in today's nba and will get destroyed by starting guards. teams would would blitz pick n rolls all day and score easy on him. therefore he doesn't project to be a starter but he would be a serviceable backup big. imho, ron baker is a fringe nba player and if he's getting 15-20 mins a night, your team is a really bad one. look at backup pg's on bad teams - dj augustin, jameer nelson, even the guy from philly - they are all better than him and those teams are terrible.
my point is that many fans over value players on their teams that just aren't that great. we constantly think backups could start but that's just not the case. i'm speaking from experience as i've overvalued players on the raptors but not until we started winning do you really know how a player can slot into that environment.
imho, phil does not know how to build a basketball team. chemistry, cohesion, culture and talent - all things he has failed in bringing to the knicks. he spent 2 years trying to implement an archaic system (yes it's archaic b/c you need top 5 players to run it). if it's a quality system, then you at least would have chemistry and cohesion even if the wins may not be there. but the knicks did not have that. he then thought adding rose to a team with melo and having a center like noah would expedite wins - again, another fail.
in today's nba, you need guards/wings (and a pg) that can not only score well but also distribute. at the very best, rose is a scorer but not a distributer. adding that to melo was never going to work. melo has won in this league before (and my definition of won is over .500 and making playoffs consistently) - and the teams he's won with included a distributing pg/leader. and in phil's tenure, he has not provided one. he did not recognize melo is a scorer and that's it. he needs to be the recipient of guards passes, not the initiator. in fact, his love for the triangle actually devalues the importance of a pg which is the complete opposite direction the nba is going today.
he does have a big that can stretch it out which does follow nba trends in porzingis but not bringing in guards that fit today's nba is the #1 reason why the knicks haven't won. there is absolutely zero evidence he knows how to put together a roster...and that's the biggest argument against him.
melo - you may not like him as a player but publicly, he has been professional and he has not thrown management under the bus as far as i can tell. but phil tweeting like he did shows that the culture of the team is the same as it's always been. everyone out for themselves. he didn't change anything.
what he's done that's different is that he hasn't traded future firsts - which for the knicks is amazing. but using that to laud him is also a bit shortsighted as you're only comparing him to past knicks gm's instead of comparing him to his peers around the league.
overall, i think he's done a bad job. the biggest issue to me is that i don't think he knows how to build a team in today's nba. but by not being 100% reckless, he could benefit or get lucky (and every gm needs luck) via the draft. time will tell but imho, i would cut bait with not only melo but phil and hire a no-name guy from a successful organization. ego in the front office does not work imho.
sorry for the ramble. now back to the politics thread :)
Couldn't agree more!!!!!!
This is dead on..Both melo and phil need to go, but I would definitely get rid of phil first. Instead of appreciating melo like a designated hitter, and instead of surrounding him with tough defensive players, and a tough coach. He dose the opposite and blames melo for the teams down fall..
Also Noah and Lee are actually known for being defensive players. Now they may have fallen off but the idea was to add some defense to the team. Rose is healthy and there's no reason why he LOAFS on D. Melo is healthy and should've sacrificed some scoring and played more D and passed more!!!
These are the real reasons this team loses. Blaming Phil is just too convenient and it's wrong. The PLAYERS that are being paid big bucks need to lay it all on the line every game. We haven't seen that. It all starts with your teams BEST players. So if Rose and Melo don't bust it, then it totally drags the team down.
HofstraBBall wrote:Chandler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Chandler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Bahahaha. Keving Ding? What a Fucking Ding Dong. The blogger with as much NBA experience as a high school boy? He takes all the hater shit said about Melo over the las few years and the idiots on here buy it. Cuz it has nothing to do with getting hits on the net. And what better way is there but to feed the haters.My favorite part of the article. PHIL HAS BROUGHT OVER EXPERIENCE VETS TO SURROUND HIM, TWICE1 GTFOH!!! You mean Robin fuckin Lopez? Aflalo? The broken down Rose and Noah? Cuz i'm sure you guys think they are All Stars. Yeah can see it now. Watch put LBJ, Love and Irving...Here come Melo AA and Rolo. They must have been really scared with that sight. LMAO.
Herre is a pic of your boy. You think he was in favor of letting Lin go? You think he blames Melo? IS this DK7th? Think so!
You haters keep going with all the obscure personal shit to support your hate for the guy. It will be over soon. And you can sit on here every night and complain how the misfits are not turning out to what you experts thought them to be. Think the basketball gods have it right, why give a chip to a bunch of whinning no talent recognizing haters.
are you trying to ironic? That's some pretty racist crap there. I can only hope you leave when Melo does, or that you're banned for racism and calling everyone an idiot
Explain the racist part? A guy having a hard on for a pro athlete of same ethnicity? Wow what a shocker. So pointing out that every asian loved Yao is racist? And Dk7th was a Melo poster on here, dont know if you think its something else? And ofcourse that is my point. Any Lin supporter equals Melo hate. Any Gallo supporter equals Melo hate. Congrats!
dk7 also had some very overt racist posts. You're in unique company
Oh ikay. So that was what your suggesting. Well would disagree. Don't think I have to defend myself on that front. Still waiting to see what you thought was racist. Your just fishing and assuming, Just like you do with everything else.
Again, I have posted for many months and I don't feel I have to defend myself of your accusations. But how is it that saying an Asian probably supports a fellow Asian putting down a whole race? Maybe short sighted, if meant in a serious light. But if it offended you, I apologize. Never my intention. Just a bunch of know it all fans talking Shit about Bball.
But I stand by my post of calling Kevin Ding and idiot blogger with minimal basketball IQ. And I specially reiterate how most Melo haters are people that still have their feelings hurt about Lin or the Gallinari's of the world.