Knicks · Why are the Knicks trying to move Melo before Phil Jackson? (page 1)

Phil Jackson is the main reason why the Knicks are so bad, he is the architect of this team and he did a horrible job building it. He has not learned from his past mistakes and most of his trades/moves/signings have not workout. Phil wants to blame Melo, but it was him who put this roster together without realizing the main players he was getting were excellent THREE years ago. This past off season instead of gambling on young players with some upside, he over paid on declining veterans. Please note that I am not defending Melo, I’m just not blaming him for Phil’s HORRIBLE JOB.

TOTALLY DISAGREE! Rose and Melo are the team leaders and have boatloads of talent. They are surrounded by some good role players. Teams win when their BEST players excel. Neither Rose nor Melo do enough on both ends not pass enough to make this team successful. That is the real reason for the team losing. Don't put this on Phil. Rose and Melo are giving less and less effort and more and more ISO and DIY offense. Noah we all know has limitations but he does give everything he has. Can't say the same for Rose and Melo tho.

nixluva wrote:TOTALLY DISAGREE! Rose and Melo are the team leaders and have boatloads of talent. They are surrounded by some good role players. Teams win when their BEST players excel. Neither Rose nor Melo do enough on both ends not pass enough to make this team successful. That is the real reason for the team losing. Don't put this on Phil. Rose and Melo are giving less and less effort and more and more ISO and DIY offense. Noah we all know has limitations but he does give everything he has. Can't say the same for Rose and Melo tho.

And who traded for Rose and gave Melo that big extension with a no trade clause? Im sure it was’t the coach. IT WAS PHIL.

KnicksFE wrote:Phil Jackson is the main reason why the Knicks are so bad, he is the architect of this team and he did a horrible job building it. He has not learned from his past mistakes and most of his trades/moves/signings have not workout. Phil wants to blame Melo, but it was him who put this roster together without realizing the main players he was getting were excellent THREE years ago. This past off season instead of gambling on young players with some upside, he over paid on declining veterans. Please note that I am not defending Melo, I’m just not blaming him for Phil’s HORRIBLE JOB.

Moving Phil does not answer the Melo question.
At this moment in time can a 32 year old elite Iso player really futher the franchise?
Nobody doubts Melo's skill, its not translating to this team, or this coach. Or the coach before him. Or the one before that one. MDA could not make it work.

Knicks drafted Kristaps Porzingis. When teams usually get a young franchise big, or a young talent they want to develop, 9 out of 10 times they trade away the older declining star that is hogging the ball. It's just how it works. It's almost never worked, a young draft pick coming in and a player on his couple of years. There may be some rare instances but this was definitely not the area. Kristaps is a starting 4 that can play 5. Melo's best position is 4. It will never work.

Melo played in NY under D'Antoni, Woodson and Fisher. The results were all more or less the same. He did not like D'Antoni's system. D'Antoni quit in large part because Melo did not want to move to 4 (And Amare 5) and saw the team wasn't responding to him. Woodson had one good year, and the next year was really bad. Similar to our last year. Were the results before Phil came over any better with a younger, better Melo? The answer is a big fat no.

Phil won't be with the Knicks for much longer. I can't see him be here for more than 2 more years. In that time if he changes the foundation of this franchise to being one where they have young players like Kristaps, and other players who come here drafted, and we rebuild properly, I have absolutely no problem with it.

The bottom line is if the Knicks had drafted Mudiay, they would be talking about something completely different right now. The team would still be clinging onto Melo for dear life because he's the only player they had who was any good. The fact that they got another player now, who plays virtually the same position Melo should, and that Melo has each of the last few years declined in production and shooting, it only makes it a no brainer to deal Melo.

Any GM with a smart mind deals Melo in this situation. Now I don't know if Phil's mind fuck games and all the barbs in the media and all the other shit is smart. I think the right way to approach this is to talk to Melo, and work with him on a trade. That's been the big problem with this, Phil seems to love just fucking with everyone's head, Melo's, the media's. The fans. It's pretty crazy he's doing this, but I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Is Melo actually willing to waive his NTC? What if the only way Melo waives his NTC is if Phil mind fucks and drives him crazy through the press and all this drama? I don't know. As much as Melo has said he would consider it if they came to him, I speculate that all his actions show that he would simply say "Nah, I'm not interested in being traded".

It's not an either/or, and actually the organizations problems predated both of these guys by a long shot. That said, Dolan is not going to change GMs every 2 1/2 years. It's more practical from his stand point to trade a player (even if the player has a NTC). Both would be band-aid solutions but trading Melo is a quicker, easier band-aid.

Even if Dolan will hire Jesus to be a knocks GM the team will still be bad.
The pile of crap Phil get when he started was probably the worst ever team in NBA history as far as players, contract, and picks goes.
He managed to clear some garbage and still keep Knicks afloat and somehow improved their record.
he also retained Melo and added Rose to keep interest to the team on the level necessary to fill the garden, get press coverage, bunch of nationally televised games and such. he used his own persona to constantly reignite the interest to Knicks when the team were sinking in irrelevance on multiple occasions.
Dolan should be delighted with cash floe Phil generated as wall as financial situation with the cap and team flexibility going forward.
Obviously the miracle of play-offs never happened. Melo and Rose proved they are not going to improve or even alter their style of play and carrier goals to accommodate Knicks strategic vision. And this is fine. Rose can be moved or released.
Melo can go kick rocks if he want or stay and continue to attract tourist to the Garden to watch him making buckets and chase scoring records. In 2 years when we will have more complete team he can vanish into the sunset.
So all-in-all great job by Phil and Mills. We finally have some strategic vision and direction.

I'm speculating again, but that conversation Phil and Melo had where Melo said he does not want to be traded. I think that gave Phil a clear signal regardless of how things go, Melo wants to be the star of NY and the man. He will not want to leave. While Melo is playing the media real well and saying "I'd consider it". I wonder if there's any real substance behind that statement. In that conversation with Phil, did Melo convince Phil that there was no way he was going to waive his NTC unless forced. So Phil's now trying to force his hand.

One thing's for sure, if Dolan is allowing Phil to do all this, he's probably behind Phil on the Phil vs Melo war. I can't see Dolan allowing Phil to do this if he didn't himself see it was the right time to trade Melo.

The simple answer is that the knicks can only truly get compensation from Melo so he is the obvious choice to move. I think Phil is a terrible President who needs to go.

KnicksFE wrote:

nixluva wrote:TOTALLY DISAGREE! Rose and Melo are the team leaders and have boatloads of talent. They are surrounded by some good role players. Teams win when their BEST players excel. Neither Rose nor Melo do enough on both ends not pass enough to make this team successful. That is the real reason for the team losing. Don't put this on Phil. Rose and Melo are giving less and less effort and more and more ISO and DIY offense. Noah we all know has limitations but he does give everything he has. Can't say the same for Rose and Melo tho.

And who traded for Rose and gave Melo that big extension with a no trade clause? Im sure it was’t the coach. IT WAS PHIL.

boy.. talk about tunnel vision. You act like he had a choice. There wasnt. His only option was to resign Melo. To suggest letting him walk for nothing was an option is nothing but total denial. There were no trade options. He was a UFA with offers from other teams.

I have a lot more confidence in Phil drafting and adding players that give us a real future than I do in Melo ever being part of a core that can be a top team in the east.

Rose happens to be one of the worst guards in the league. His +/- is downright disgraceful. Melo is a scorer, Rose is the point guard. You don't win with a guy that can't create opportunity for other players on the team, leading the offense.

Noah was one of the worst signings of the offseason.

We would have been better off just giving Wade at two year 60MM deal and signing a serviceable point guard. Believe it or not Robin Lopez is an asset on the contract he is one and would have been able to yield a role player to help with rebuilding.

So Phil is to blame. Nothing for Tyson Chandler, nothing for Shumpert. JR Smith got a 58MM contract and Phil was losing his mind trying to get rid of a guy on a deal that paid him under market. Derek Fisher received top 5 money without having coached a game.

Blame falls on phil. you can't devalue an asset. he has acted like an asshole.

Bonn1997 wrote:It's not an either/or, and actually the organizations problems predated both of these guys by a long shot. That said, Dolan is not going to change GMs every 2 1/2 years. It's more practical from his stand point to trade a player (even if the player has a NTC). Both would be band-aid solutions but trading Melo is a quicker, easier band-aid.

The GM goal from Dolan perspective is to make money.
I think Phil did a great job at that.
Melo did too. So Dolan will be fine ether way. He is moved or not moved.

arkrud wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:It's not an either/or, and actually the organizations problems predated both of these guys by a long shot. That said, Dolan is not going to change GMs every 2 1/2 years. It's more practical from his stand point to trade a player (even if the player has a NTC). Both would be band-aid solutions but trading Melo is a quicker, easier band-aid.

The GM goal from Dolan perspective is to make money.
I think Phil did a great job at that.
Melo did too. So Dolan will be fine ether way. He is moved or not moved.

By what measure???..Certainly not company earnings....

fishmike wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

nixluva wrote:TOTALLY DISAGREE! Rose and Melo are the team leaders and have boatloads of talent. They are surrounded by some good role players. Teams win when their BEST players excel. Neither Rose nor Melo do enough on both ends not pass enough to make this team successful. That is the real reason for the team losing. Don't put this on Phil. Rose and Melo are giving less and less effort and more and more ISO and DIY offense. Noah we all know has limitations but he does give everything he has. Can't say the same for Rose and Melo tho.

And who traded for Rose and gave Melo that big extension with a no trade clause? Im sure it was’t the coach. IT WAS PHIL.

boy.. talk about tunnel vision. You act like he had a choice. There wasnt. His only option was to resign Melo. To suggest letting him walk for nothing was an option is nothing but total denial. There were no trade options. He was a UFA with offers from other teams.

I have a lot more confidence in Phil drafting and adding players that give us a real future than I do in Melo ever being part of a core that can be a top team in the east.

There was a trade option with Chicago and why they held onto Boozer's contract.

Also, if Phil delegates and let Gaines pick be his pick great on the other hand when he makes his choice(Grant/Early) things doesn't look so good.

KnicksFE wrote:Phil Jackson is the main reason why the Knicks are so bad, he is the architect of this team and he did a horrible job building it. He has not learned from his past mistakes and most of his trades/moves/signings have not workout. Phil wants to blame Melo, but it was him who put this roster together without realizing the main players he was getting were excellent THREE years ago. This past off season instead of gambling on young players with some upside, he over paid on declining veterans. Please note that I am not defending Melo, I’m just not blaming him for Phil’s HORRIBLE JOB.

Is this 1248's alternate login?

KnicksFE wrote:Phil Jackson is the main reason why the Knicks are so bad, he is the architect of this team and he did a horrible job building it. He has not learned from his past mistakes and most of his trades/moves/signings have not workout. Phil wants to blame Melo, but it was him who put this roster together without realizing the main players he was getting were excellent THREE years ago. This past off season instead of gambling on young players with some upside, he over paid on declining veterans. Please note that I am not defending Melo, I’m just not blaming him for Phil’s HORRIBLE JOB.

Completely disagree. Phil inherited a team with no young talent or draft picks. He had an aging star and little else to work with. He added talent. Rose, Noah, Lee, Jennings, and a young star like KP to go with Melo should be enough to win games. The fit was bad, but this year Melo can't complain about talent. I have always been one of Melo's biggest supporters here because i feel like management has not put enough talent around him, but this year i feel like Phil put as much talent around him as he has had in his career. Now it's clear its not working, so time to move in another direction. Phil's presidency has become underrated. He has made the most of his draft picks, and made a few value free agent signings. If he had draft picks in 2014 and 2016, things might look completely different. His options were limited when he took over. He give the Knicks a future though. His downfall has been his lack of culture change and bad communication.

fishmike wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

nixluva wrote:TOTALLY DISAGREE! Rose and Melo are the team leaders and have boatloads of talent. They are surrounded by some good role players. Teams win when their BEST players excel. Neither Rose nor Melo do enough on both ends not pass enough to make this team successful. That is the real reason for the team losing. Don't put this on Phil. Rose and Melo are giving less and less effort and more and more ISO and DIY offense. Noah we all know has limitations but he does give everything he has. Can't say the same for Rose and Melo tho.

And who traded for Rose and gave Melo that big extension with a no trade clause? Im sure it was’t the coach. IT WAS PHIL.

boy.. talk about tunnel vision. You act like he had a choice. There wasnt. His only option was to resign Melo. To suggest letting him walk for nothing was an option is nothing but total denial. There were no trade options. He was a UFA with offers from other teams.

I have a lot more confidence in Phil drafting and adding players that give us a real future than I do in Melo ever being part of a core that can be a top team in the east.

Same for me. Phil might not have made all the right moves, but no GM operates with the benefit of hindsight. So far, Phil has done a terrific job at balancing the wishes of an owner and star player while also maintaining cap flexibility and drafting GREAT.

That's at least a B+ in my grade book. If he gets us another solid building block PG in this draft, it goes to A-. Don't give a phuck about Melo and Rose. They should be traded asap.

fishmike wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

nixluva wrote:TOTALLY DISAGREE! Rose and Melo are the team leaders and have boatloads of talent. They are surrounded by some good role players. Teams win when their BEST players excel. Neither Rose nor Melo do enough on both ends not pass enough to make this team successful. That is the real reason for the team losing. Don't put this on Phil. Rose and Melo are giving less and less effort and more and more ISO and DIY offense. Noah we all know has limitations but he does give everything he has. Can't say the same for Rose and Melo tho.

And who traded for Rose and gave Melo that big extension with a no trade clause? Im sure it was’t the coach. IT WAS PHIL.

boy.. talk about tunnel vision. You act like he had a choice. There wasnt. His only option was to resign Melo. To suggest letting him walk for nothing was an option is nothing but total denial. There were no trade options. He was a UFA with offers from other teams.

I have a lot more confidence in Phil drafting and adding players that give us a real future than I do in Melo ever being part of a core that can be a top team in the east.

Exactly right.

This thread topic has the scent of pure high grade sticki-icky kind ... ummm
Trolling. Unless - is that you ME70 ?

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

nixluva wrote:TOTALLY DISAGREE! Rose and Melo are the team leaders and have boatloads of talent. They are surrounded by some good role players. Teams win when their BEST players excel. Neither Rose nor Melo do enough on both ends not pass enough to make this team successful. That is the real reason for the team losing. Don't put this on Phil. Rose and Melo are giving less and less effort and more and more ISO and DIY offense. Noah we all know has limitations but he does give everything he has. Can't say the same for Rose and Melo tho.

And who traded for Rose and gave Melo that big extension with a no trade clause? Im sure it was’t the coach. IT WAS PHIL.

boy.. talk about tunnel vision. You act like he had a choice. There wasnt. His only option was to resign Melo. To suggest letting him walk for nothing was an option is nothing but total denial. There were no trade options. He was a UFA with offers from other teams.

I have a lot more confidence in Phil drafting and adding players that give us a real future than I do in Melo ever being part of a core that can be a top team in the east.

Exactly right.

But over $250 mil in cap space was used on Melo, Rose, Lee, and Noah. Do you not think a good GM should have gotten better return out of that much money? These are all players with average to below average advanced stats and negative on/off point differentials. It's $250 mil spent on these guys and the team is not even playing better when they're on the court.
I will agree that his draft choices have panned out well. He's 1 for 3 in terms of drafts, trades, and FA signings.

Phil gambled adding Rose & Noah. Those were bad moves- I think I said as much at the time. Was he pressured by Dolan or Melo? Maybe. Was his intention the right one, to try to improve the team dramatically? Yes. Did it seem to work for a time, albeit short? Yes.

Has Melo bought in to team ball? Maybe.

Is it too much for the Knicks to try to play Phil's system? Maybe.

Both deserve blame, but maybe it's time to rebuild and I don't know why Melo would want to suffer through that.