Knicks · Phil evaluating roster based on Triangle fit! (page 4)

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.

When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.

When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.

This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.

Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.

When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.

This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.

Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.

He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.

When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.

This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.

Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.

He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.

I've got proof of how Hornacek switched up to a 4 Out PnR style! They did try that but it didn't lead to enough wins. So now they're going to go back to using more Triangle spacing.

None of this is important to the long term future which will involve new players with different skills and abilities.

Uptown wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I know this is vastly unlikely to get through to massive anti Triangle agenda but the team gave full freedom to Rose, BJ and Melo to play without the Triangle for a good portion of the season.

While we definitely had our moments and looked improved on O a few things stood out

1- Melo and Rose could not play D in a high paced game. It was obvious with our size with KP Noah/Willy and Melo we were often slow back to set up. We are not built for track meets. KP and Melo will never thrive in track meet type of games.

2- the issue of offense going into ISO mode remained. Ball movement was not consistent.

3- Teams are better equipped to run and gun against us than we are them. They are smaller quicker and better 3 point shooters.

This is the way I see it.

Either Phil needs to literally make another huge overhaul or we need to try something different.

I completely agree that for many teams the Triangle is not right. However with Melo and KP the Triangle may actually be one of the few ways we can play good team basketball and also be good on D without exposing our lack of speed and quickness to play D.

Put it this way we have Willy, KP and Melo. Do you want to play high paced basketball with a front court like that?

That's fair - the roster is not built to run. It's built to play grind it out half court basketball. So why hire a coach known to play fast paced run and gun basketball in Horny? Why not hire Frank Vogel? Or interview Tom Thibadeau? The supposed Anti Triangle Agenda Team wanted to interview those guys because they seemed like better fits for the roster. I thought Fisher's version of the Triangle and defense was a much better fit for this team and he was a far superior coach to Hornacek. Now, we are seemingly left with Rambis coaching the defense and the offense, which it says in the founding articles of the Anti Triangle Agenda Team is a terrible idea.

My larger question - can a grind it out half court team win in 2017? (or 2018? or 2019?) The league now is built to favor greyhounds with deep range. We see it in the way the games are called, seemingly against us, but maybe more because that's just how the games are called these days. They don't favor teams who pound it inside. You're more likely to get a foul call shooting a three than you are posting up inside some nights, it seems.

Is this team built to win in the modern NBA? I really don't know if it can. Similarly to how you will see a team with the mega talents of Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins struggle to mesh on the floor together, I wonder if KP, Melo, and Willy can cover enough ground to keep this team competitive defensively if they take the court at the same time.

Even you, nyknickzingis, have said, as many of the Anti Triangle Agenda Team have noted since last season, that KP and Melo are not a good fit starting next to each other at the forward spots. They're too slow together to cover the opposing forwards. KP has issues guarding the paint and then closing out to the corner on a sweet shooting small ball four. When KP or Melo have to switch onto guards, bad things tend to happen.

Signed,
crzymdups, esq.
One of the framing fathers of the Anti Triangle Agenda Team

Great post...The triangle is dated is not the way the current game is being played it is not the way the younger players in the league are used to playing. I coach junior HS ball and spend a lot of time at HS games, AAU tournaments, etc. This kids are either fast-breaking into an open 3 or when the game slows down they mostly run a 4-out 1 in, or a 5-out offensive set with lots of PNR. The triangle is not appealing at all and as Rose said in an interview, "It's random offense." You can say Rose is not cerebral enough to understand it, but i can guarantee you, most young guards will feel the same way, rightly or wrongly.

Instead of worrying so much about our offense, its the defensive side of the ball that needs to be fixed. As you said, a combo of Melo, Billy and KP on the front line is too slow footed to deal with most NBA frontlines of today...

Agree. No one that is a Phil fan can answer these questions...What is our future if we are predicated on a antiquated system? How does training solely on a system, NO OTHER team plays, help KP's development? Specially when the chances are that Phil leaves and a new system is put in place.

But Melo hurts the future and KP's development more? Nonsense.

Can anyone explain how the Triangle insistence does not hurt our future?

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Phil did what he set out to do. He hired a coach and build a team that allowed Melo to compete in his fast closing window. Melo himself said he was happy with Hornacek and Rose signings. The other vets were solid as well except Noah. The team showed why you can't win with Melo and Melo showed why he can't lead. Phil delivrred Melo what everyone considered a potential playoff team at the start of the season. Melo delivered the unmitigated disaster that we have come to expect of him.

Now we are moving on, hopefully we focus on young players and stop starfukking for good. Melo can rot on the bench or he can go jump.

Who exactly did he bring over, that you think was a solid NBA player, other than Lee? Please leave out guys that were thought of as at bottom of their careers or coming off bad years with injuries.

And BTW, Lin sucks.

I have no idea how Lin figures into a discussion about Phil. Then again you are just dumping on Phil so I don't really expect anything logical from you. But the fact remains Melo himself expressed satisfaction with the coach and the team at the start of the season. It's not Phil's fault that Melo just isn't a top caliber player and his monumentous career achievement is a second round playoff exit.

Totally agree about Lin not being a part of discussion. Same point I was trying to make when you bring Melo into every discussion. We are talking about the merits or lack there of, for Phil.

3 restarts in 3 years.
Insistence on antiquated system "No One" else uses.
Signing a parenial injury prone player who was in decline to 4 year 17m deal.
Trading a decent Role playing Center for a guy on with one year deal that obviously does not fit his "Criteria" for evaluating players.(Triangle)
How many of his draft picks from first 2 years still in league?
Not being able to salvage any return from multiple assets.
Failing to change perception of inept franchise. Has made it worse in eyes of NBA players.
Three years of negative working relationships with players and coaches. No communication.

Buy yes. Gaines picked KP, so everything else is forgiven.

Totally disagree about your stretch. Lin and Phil NEVER even overlapped. Melo was being held accountable for what he has done, and no you can't talk about Phil without apportioning blame to Melo, as much as you would like to.

First year doesn't even count simply because of garbage inherited - Second year we still had leftover garbage like Bargs and Prigioni. So only one restart
It maybe antiquated but he is a systems person and when we hired him that was going to be what he brings, if you don't like it don't hire him
Never said Noah signing was good, it was his second biggest blooper after the NTC
Somehow you managed to leave out that he first acquired that same decent role playing center didn't you?
How many second rounders stick around for 3 years on average? He had 1 first round pick, what else?
Assets LOL
I am sorry but a couple of Melo's buddies tweeting about him does not equate to ALL NBA players, they'll come here for the money same as before
Nope. He only negative is Melo, no one else has actually complained about Phil (Well Fisher after he got canned, but he got canned, so wasn't expecting praise)

Did Melo say at the start of the season that he was happy with the team and coach or not? But of course you won't answer that.

Agree there was no Phil and Lin overlap. But AGAIN, Lin not part of discussion. Problem is, i think thats the only thing you really care about. And big reason its hard for you to understand any positives in Melo. You hate the guy because you think he pushed out your favorite player. I get it. Btw, his contract demand is what pushed him out. Just was not worth the deal Houston gave him. He proved it by how he went in to play.

So first year doesn't count for Phil but it does for Melo???? What about second year? AA and RL are solid NBA difference makers? I am still waiting for long list of players that should of helped Melo?

As for talk of Melo in a bad situation. Not just Melo's buddies. Reason why I asked if you watch NBA coverage.

Quote from a man(Ray Dalio) who runs the biggest hedge fund in the US and is retiring...

Any organization run by a 60+ year old that says that it isn’t in transition is either naïve or disingenuous.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.

When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.

This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.

Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.

He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.

There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lost

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.

When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.

This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.

Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.

He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.

There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lost

It's funny. Last year Harden averaged 7 assists per game and was called selfish. This year he's averaging 11.5. I wonder what changed? Is it possible they're running a system which better fits the roster and the talents of their best player?

Porzingis is excited the triangle is returning. If it helps the future of our team, i am fine with it.

Our talent was good this year

Rose, Lee, Melo, KP and Willy/KOQ

We scored enough on a consistent game to basis
We did not defend

Whatever we do next, the major improvement will come only if the team completely commits to D and we change the rotation, starters and talent around in a way where we are better skilled and equipped to play D

Lance Thomas is a key piece we need to make part of our rotation
KP needs to focus on post D strength and how to close out on shooters quicker
We need more defensive talent and less guys who only care about O.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.

When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.

This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.

Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.

He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.

There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lost

Oh you mean crap like this???

Open shooters but he'd rather force it into the Teeth of the Defense!!!

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.

When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.

This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.

Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.

He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.

There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lost

It's funny. Last year Harden averaged 7 assists per game and was called selfish. This year he's averaging 11.5. I wonder what changed? Is it possible they're running a system which better fits the roster and the talents of their best player?

Yea.. exactly. They moved him to PG and put in a system that allows everyone else to play off him. Melo had the same coach here try that with him. Want to revisit what happened? Or are you suggesting it would be better to have kept Woodson and just played ISO Melo ball for the next few years?

If we have learned anything from Phil and MDA here its that Melo plays one way and one way only. Trying to get him to change will result in leaving town or grumpy tweets. Phil's big mistake was thinking he had a player he could change, and that was a 4 year NTC mistake.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.

When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.

This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.

Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.

He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.

There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lost

It's funny. Last year Harden averaged 7 assists per game and was called selfish. This year he's averaging 11.5. I wonder what changed? Is it possible they're running a system which better fits the roster and the talents of their best player?

Yea.. exactly. They moved him to PG and put in a system that allows everyone else to play off him. Melo had the same coach here try that with him. Want to revisit what happened? Or are you suggesting it would be better to have kept Woodson and just played ISO Melo ball for the next few years?

If we have learned anything from Phil and MDA here its that Melo plays one way and one way only. Trying to get him to change will result in leaving town or grumpy tweets. Phil's big mistake was thinking he had a player he could change, and that was a 4 year NTC mistake.

I seem to remember D'Antoni making the playoffs with Melo. Melo's not a point guard, I didn't say the best idea was to have Melo become a playmaker. Only someone who didn't watch him much would think he's suited to be a playmaker. I said put in a system that suits your players. Melo has looked best in the Olympics playing off the ball. Or with a good point guard who gets the ball to Melo in the right spots. That Woodson Knicks team had great ball movement. They were one of the most prolific three point shooting teams in the league and Melo had career highs in assists in the Woodson years. Smart basketball coaches put their players in position to succeed, not put them in position to fail and then whine about it.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.

When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.

This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.

Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.

He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.

There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lost

It's funny. Last year Harden averaged 7 assists per game and was called selfish. This year he's averaging 11.5. I wonder what changed? Is it possible they're running a system which better fits the roster and the talents of their best player?

Yea.. exactly. They moved him to PG and put in a system that allows everyone else to play off him. Melo had the same coach here try that with him. Want to revisit what happened? Or are you suggesting it would be better to have kept Woodson and just played ISO Melo ball for the next few years?

If we have learned anything from Phil and MDA here its that Melo plays one way and one way only. Trying to get him to change will result in leaving town or grumpy tweets. Phil's big mistake was thinking he had a player he could change, and that was a 4 year NTC mistake.

I seem to remember D'Antoni making the playoffs with Melo. Melo's not a point guard, I didn't say the best idea was to have Melo become a playmaker. Only someone who didn't watch him much would think he's suited to be a playmaker. I said put in a system that suits your players. Melo has looked best in the Olympics playing off the ball. Or with a good point guard who gets the ball to Melo in the right spots. That Woodson Knicks team had great ball movement. They were one of the most prolific three point shooting teams in the league and Melo had career highs in assists in the Woodson years. Smart basketball coaches put their players in position to succeed, not put them in position to fail and then whine about it.

You do know that MDA has been the Offensive mind behind the Olympic Teams right? Melo is a strange bird. He has the ability to play a different way but CHOOSES not to when it comes to the regular season. Woodson didn't come up with that offense he just stole the MDA stuff and he admitted that. Only later in the season did Woodson switch to his own ISO style of ball, relying on ISO Melo way too much.

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.

When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.

This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.

Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.

He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.

There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lost

It's funny. Last year Harden averaged 7 assists per game and was called selfish. This year he's averaging 11.5. I wonder what changed? Is it possible they're running a system which better fits the roster and the talents of their best player?

Yea.. exactly. They moved him to PG and put in a system that allows everyone else to play off him. Melo had the same coach here try that with him. Want to revisit what happened? Or are you suggesting it would be better to have kept Woodson and just played ISO Melo ball for the next few years?

If we have learned anything from Phil and MDA here its that Melo plays one way and one way only. Trying to get him to change will result in leaving town or grumpy tweets. Phil's big mistake was thinking he had a player he could change, and that was a 4 year NTC mistake.

I seem to remember D'Antoni making the playoffs with Melo. Melo's not a point guard, I didn't say the best idea was to have Melo become a playmaker. Only someone who didn't watch him much would think he's suited to be a playmaker. I said put in a system that suits your players. Melo has looked best in the Olympics playing off the ball. Or with a good point guard who gets the ball to Melo in the right spots. That Woodson Knicks team had great ball movement. They were one of the most prolific three point shooting teams in the league and Melo had career highs in assists in the Woodson years. Smart basketball coaches put their players in position to succeed, not put them in position to fail and then whine about it.

You do know that MDA has been the Offensive mind behind the Olympic Teams right? Melo is a strange bird. He has the ability to play a different way but CHOOSES not to when it comes to the regular season. Woodson didn't come up with that offense he just stole the MDA stuff and he admitted that. Only later in the season did Woodson switch to his own ISO style of ball, relying on ISO Melo way too much.

That statement includes so many self contradictions and circular logic fails that I can't even begin to parse it. But what the heck let's try.

MDA invented the Olympic offense (Not Mike Krzyzewski)

But he didn't use Melo the same way in NY because Melo is a strange bird

It was Melo's choice for MDA to ask him to be a playmaker in the offense

Woodson just stole MDA's offense

Yet Woodson did not ask Melo to be a playmaker, he had two PGs at all times, Felton and Kidd or Prigioni and also played Melo at PF

In summary, it's all Melo's fault, even though Woodson figured it out by stealing MDA's offense, just using Melo in a completely different way in it

Melo finished third in MVP voting under Woodson and had the best two seasons of his career, offensively

The Knicks went 109-79 under Woodson and Phil fired him because the roster was clumsy

The Knicks have gone 73-154 since Phil fired Woodson

It's all Melo's fault

Do I have that right?

Pushing the triangle is pointless..It will end as soon as Phil leaves...So Phil is not acting in the best interest of the organization..He is acting in self interest...Phil should be trying to build an organization for the future not the past...It's sad watching all this...

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..

Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.

It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.

As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.

Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.

So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.

He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.

No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.

When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.

This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.

Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.

He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.

There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lost

It's funny. Last year Harden averaged 7 assists per game and was called selfish. This year he's averaging 11.5. I wonder what changed? Is it possible they're running a system which better fits the roster and the talents of their best player?

Yea.. exactly. They moved him to PG and put in a system that allows everyone else to play off him. Melo had the same coach here try that with him. Want to revisit what happened? Or are you suggesting it would be better to have kept Woodson and just played ISO Melo ball for the next few years?

If we have learned anything from Phil and MDA here its that Melo plays one way and one way only. Trying to get him to change will result in leaving town or grumpy tweets. Phil's big mistake was thinking he had a player he could change, and that was a 4 year NTC mistake.

I seem to remember D'Antoni making the playoffs with Melo. Melo's not a point guard, I didn't say the best idea was to have Melo become a playmaker. Only someone who didn't watch him much would think he's suited to be a playmaker. I said put in a system that suits your players. Melo has looked best in the Olympics playing off the ball. Or with a good point guard who gets the ball to Melo in the right spots. That Woodson Knicks team had great ball movement. They were one of the most prolific three point shooting teams in the league and Melo had career highs in assists in the Woodson years. Smart basketball coaches put their players in position to succeed, not put them in position to fail and then whine about it.

You do know that MDA has been the Offensive mind behind the Olympic Teams right? Melo is a strange bird. He has the ability to play a different way but CHOOSES not to when it comes to the regular season. Woodson didn't come up with that offense he just stole the MDA stuff and he admitted that. Only later in the season did Woodson switch to his own ISO style of ball, relying on ISO Melo way too much.

That statement includes so many self contradictions and circular logic fails that I can't even begin to parse it. But what the heck let's try.

MDA invented the Olympic offense (Not Mike Krzyzewski)

But he didn't use Melo the same way in NY because Melo is a strange bird

It was Melo's choice for MDA to ask him to be a playmaker in the offense

Woodson just stole MDA's offense

Yet Woodson did not ask Melo to be a playmaker, he had two PGs at all times, Felton and Kidd or Prigioni and also played Melo at PF

In summary, it's all Melo's fault, even though Woodson figured it out by stealing MDA's offense, just using Melo in a completely different way in it

Melo finished third in MVP voting under Woodson and had the best two seasons of his career, offensively

The Knicks went 109-79 under Woodson and Phil fired him because the roster was clumsy

The Knicks have gone 73-154 since Phil fired Woodson

It's all Melo's fault

Do I have that right?

Pretty much...