Knicks · Phil evaluating roster based on Triangle fit! (page 5)
crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Yea.. exactly. They moved him to PG and put in a system that allows everyone else to play off him. Melo had the same coach here try that with him. Want to revisit what happened? Or are you suggesting it would be better to have kept Woodson and just played ISO Melo ball for the next few years?fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lostnixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..
Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.
As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.
So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.
No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.
When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.
This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.
Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.
He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.
It's funny. Last year Harden averaged 7 assists per game and was called selfish. This year he's averaging 11.5. I wonder what changed? Is it possible they're running a system which better fits the roster and the talents of their best player?
If we have learned anything from Phil and MDA here its that Melo plays one way and one way only. Trying to get him to change will result in leaving town or grumpy tweets. Phil's big mistake was thinking he had a player he could change, and that was a 4 year NTC mistake.
I seem to remember D'Antoni making the playoffs with Melo. Melo's not a point guard, I didn't say the best idea was to have Melo become a playmaker. Only someone who didn't watch him much would think he's suited to be a playmaker. I said put in a system that suits your players. Melo has looked best in the Olympics playing off the ball. Or with a good point guard who gets the ball to Melo in the right spots. That Woodson Knicks team had great ball movement. They were one of the most prolific three point shooting teams in the league and Melo had career highs in assists in the Woodson years. Smart basketball coaches put their players in position to succeed, not put them in position to fail and then whine about it.
You do know that MDA has been the Offensive mind behind the Olympic Teams right? Melo is a strange bird. He has the ability to play a different way but CHOOSES not to when it comes to the regular season. Woodson didn't come up with that offense he just stole the MDA stuff and he admitted that. Only later in the season did Woodson switch to his own ISO style of ball, relying on ISO Melo way too much.That statement includes so many self contradictions and circular logic fails that I can't even begin to parse it. But what the heck let's try.
MDA invented the Olympic offense (Not Mike Krzyzewski)
But he didn't use Melo the same way in NY because Melo is a strange bird
It was Melo's choice for MDA to ask him to be a playmaker in the offense
Woodson just stole MDA's offense
Yet Woodson did not ask Melo to be a playmaker, he had two PGs at all times, Felton and Kidd or Prigioni and also played Melo at PF
In summary, it's all Melo's fault, even though Woodson figured it out by stealing MDA's offense, just using Melo in a completely different way in it
Melo finished third in MVP voting under Woodson and had the best two seasons of his career, offensively
The Knicks went 109-79 under Woodson and Phil fired him because the roster was clumsy
The Knicks have gone 73-154 since Phil fired Woodson
It's all Melo's fault
Do I have that right?
Pretty much...
nixluva wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lostnixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..
Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.
As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.
So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.
No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.
When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.
This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.
Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.
He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.
Oh you mean crap like this???
Open shooters but he'd rather force it into the Teeth of the Defense!!!
True, he is an offensive minded player. When did the help come down. was it during his move to basket where he had one player on him? But your right, its no secret he forces the issue at times. What your not including is that you can make that break down of every player in the league at least five times a game. Specially, Offensive minded ones. Specially in the middle of a move to basket. Dont think good coaches want to take that hunger to score away from them. That's what makes them unique. The idea they can score at any time. Have you seen the type of shot selection Curry has? Should he have stopped shooting the other night when he went 0 for 11? Its a constant mind set these guys have to be aggressive.
The thing I dont like with Melo has always been his dribbling at three point line and forcing a long three. Just terrible when he does that. I have no problem with him backing down a guy and taking it strong to the basket. However, Think he is at his best when he is coming off picks for mid range jump shots. But you need the coach to call that and a good point guard.
holfresh wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Yea.. exactly. They moved him to PG and put in a system that allows everyone else to play off him. Melo had the same coach here try that with him. Want to revisit what happened? Or are you suggesting it would be better to have kept Woodson and just played ISO Melo ball for the next few years?fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lostnixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..
Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.
As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.
So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.
No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.
When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.
This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.
Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.
He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.
It's funny. Last year Harden averaged 7 assists per game and was called selfish. This year he's averaging 11.5. I wonder what changed? Is it possible they're running a system which better fits the roster and the talents of their best player?
If we have learned anything from Phil and MDA here its that Melo plays one way and one way only. Trying to get him to change will result in leaving town or grumpy tweets. Phil's big mistake was thinking he had a player he could change, and that was a 4 year NTC mistake.
I seem to remember D'Antoni making the playoffs with Melo. Melo's not a point guard, I didn't say the best idea was to have Melo become a playmaker. Only someone who didn't watch him much would think he's suited to be a playmaker. I said put in a system that suits your players. Melo has looked best in the Olympics playing off the ball. Or with a good point guard who gets the ball to Melo in the right spots. That Woodson Knicks team had great ball movement. They were one of the most prolific three point shooting teams in the league and Melo had career highs in assists in the Woodson years. Smart basketball coaches put their players in position to succeed, not put them in position to fail and then whine about it.
You do know that MDA has been the Offensive mind behind the Olympic Teams right? Melo is a strange bird. He has the ability to play a different way but CHOOSES not to when it comes to the regular season. Woodson didn't come up with that offense he just stole the MDA stuff and he admitted that. Only later in the season did Woodson switch to his own ISO style of ball, relying on ISO Melo way too much.That statement includes so many self contradictions and circular logic fails that I can't even begin to parse it. But what the heck let's try.
MDA invented the Olympic offense (Not Mike Krzyzewski)
But he didn't use Melo the same way in NY because Melo is a strange bird
It was Melo's choice for MDA to ask him to be a playmaker in the offense
Woodson just stole MDA's offense
Yet Woodson did not ask Melo to be a playmaker, he had two PGs at all times, Felton and Kidd or Prigioni and also played Melo at PF
In summary, it's all Melo's fault, even though Woodson figured it out by stealing MDA's offense, just using Melo in a completely different way in it
Melo finished third in MVP voting under Woodson and had the best two seasons of his career, offensively
The Knicks went 109-79 under Woodson and Phil fired him because the roster was clumsy
The Knicks have gone 73-154 since Phil fired Woodson
It's all Melo's fault
Do I have that right?
Pretty much...
MDA was the one that was behind a lot of the offense on the Olympic team!!!
For now D’Antoni will focus on coaching the offense for the Olympic team inhttp://www.americasbookie.com/back-to-sc...
its pursuit of back-to-back gold medals.
Krzyzewski talked about how he considered D’Antoni a co-head coach with USA Basketball in 2012 and how he predicted the former coach of the Lakers and Suns would fit well in Space City.https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/earl...“Guys not only like Mike, they respect him,” Krzyzewski said. “He was a great player; not a good player, a great player. Internationally, he was unbelievable. He knows the game from a point guard’s point of view. He’s always studied the game well.
“Every time I hear people talk about Mike, they say, ‘He’s this offensive genius.’ Well, he’s a really good head coach. You can’t have the success he’s had by just coaching offense. He’s a team player. Good guy. Easy to be around. And smart as can be. And very humble, because when you’re put in that role, on an international staff, a guy could say, ‘Hey, I’m a head coach,’ and not be in it as much. Mike was all in it, all the way. I loved working with him and I love our friendship.”
Krzyzewski was praising a friend. But when asked about how D'Antoni's offense will work for the Rockets, he went back to sounding like a coach that has been in the meetings and the practices and saw more than the numbers."It's well-conceived," said Krzyzewski, who had James Harden on the 2012 Olympic and 2014 World Cup champion. "People can be really good on offense or defense in a number of ways. Being smart doesn't mean speed. Being smart means spacing, good shots, using your personnel properly. We're all not going to be very good unless we have good players. If you have enough good players and they're healthy, the spacing of the court, the sharing of the ball, the speed with which he advances it, gives his guys an opportunity to make plays.
"When you have plays and reads it's the best combination. It's especially good if you have a special player and they do in James (Harden). It will be interesting to see how that develops because James is not just a really good scorer; James is a heck of a passer. Who knows what their roster will be next year, but it will start with James.
"I'm as high on Mike as I can be. I always want him on my team, with my team, in any way."
“Surely, Boozer, who played for D’Antoni at the Olympics, is on the Knick list. ‘I love D’Antoni, he’s the dope,’ Boozer said. ‘Spending time with him in the Olympics, his offensive mindset is unbelievable. He’s got the best plays I’ve ever been around — on a whim. It’s like rappers when they come out on the top of the dome with quotes. He’s got plays in the back of his head with plays for that moment.’
Read more at http://www.slamonline.com/nba/carlos-boozer-loves-mike-dantoni/#KjKUhzE6MuDBpbwk.99
Last season, with a very small team, Duke included nuances from Mike D'Antoni's fast-breaking system that was so successful when
he led the Phoenix Suns. D'Antoni, Portland Trail Blazers coach Nate McMillan and Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim were Krzyzewski's
assistants during the three-year Olympic commitment.
HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lostnixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..
Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.
As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.
So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.
No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.
When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.
This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.
Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.
He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.
Oh you mean crap like this???
Open shooters but he'd rather force it into the Teeth of the Defense!!!
True, he is an offensive minded player. When did the help come down. was it during his move to basket where he had one player on him? But your right, its no secret he forces the issue at times. What your not including is that you can make that break down of every player in the league at least five times a game. Specially, Offensive minded ones. Specially in the middle of a move to basket. Dont think good coaches want to take that hunger to score away from them. That's what makes them unique. The idea they can score at any time. Have you seen the type of shot selection Curry has? Should he have stopped shooting the other night when he went 0 for 11? Its a constant mind set these guys have to be aggressive.
The thing I dont like with Melo has always been his dribbling at three point line and forcing a long three. Just terrible when he does that. I have no problem with him backing down a guy and taking it strong to the basket. However, Think he is at his best when he is coming off picks for mid range jump shots. But you need the coach to call that and a good point guard.
DUDE WTF? The pictures above clearly show that Melo moved into the help D that was already cheating in. KP was open the ENTIRE TIME Melo was dribbling the ball and backing his man down. Look at the pictures and you can see the D was packing it in and if Melo used this to fool the D and then pass out it would lead to wide open shots or at least more swinging of the ball until the defense was unable to recover and a good shot was created.
Melo being such a great post player should be able to get Multiple Triple Doubles if he was willing to play that way. It's really all about HIM. If the team is playing thur Melo he becomes Duncan or has the same options as Jokic takes advantage of. There's simply no reason Melo should've be a great facilitator.
crzymdups wrote:Think its that simple? Melo never had a winning record with MDA. They made the playoffs the year Melo was traded and Amare did the heavy lifting that year early on. They gutted the team to bring him in. Melo than didnt want to play any speedball crap. MDA tried a few things with him and he all know Melo quit on MDA. I roasted him for that. I backed off when I saw his play under Woodson and let it go with MDA/Melo are a bad fit. Obviously Melo had the one great season for us and a memorable season it was.fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Yea.. exactly. They moved him to PG and put in a system that allows everyone else to play off him. Melo had the same coach here try that with him. Want to revisit what happened? Or are you suggesting it would be better to have kept Woodson and just played ISO Melo ball for the next few years?fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lostnixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..
Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.
As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.
So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.
No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.
When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.
This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.
Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.
He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.
It's funny. Last year Harden averaged 7 assists per game and was called selfish. This year he's averaging 11.5. I wonder what changed? Is it possible they're running a system which better fits the roster and the talents of their best player?
If we have learned anything from Phil and MDA here its that Melo plays one way and one way only. Trying to get him to change will result in leaving town or grumpy tweets. Phil's big mistake was thinking he had a player he could change, and that was a 4 year NTC mistake.
I seem to remember D'Antoni making the playoffs with Melo. Melo's not a point guard, I didn't say the best idea was to have Melo become a playmaker. Only someone who didn't watch him much would think he's suited to be a playmaker. I said put in a system that suits your players. Melo has looked best in the Olympics playing off the ball. Or with a good point guard who gets the ball to Melo in the right spots. That Woodson Knicks team had great ball movement. They were one of the most prolific three point shooting teams in the league and Melo had career highs in assists in the Woodson years. Smart basketball coaches put their players in position to succeed, not put them in position to fail and then whine about it.
I like Melo. However this is the 2nd time here he's refused to conform to a team concept, instead preferring to hold the ball and do his thing.
So now the question is simple. You are 100% correct. Melo is not in a position to be the best Melo we could have. He's a 4. He's a half court ISO player. So at 32 do you want to build around him and get the best team around he can? To what avail? I am sure Isiah Thomas could get a package for KP that would put a defensive SF and better PG in place and we could win 45 games and be a top 4 seed in the East. Phil hasnt been good here, but he's also not been a disaster. I mean how do you want to move forward? Get a GM/coach who will cater the whole system and franchise around Melo so we can make the 2nd round? Or finally realize this guy isnt going to conform or do anything but what he's done for his dozen+ years in the league? Look at the 2 years he's advanced in the playoffs. Those teams were very good and very deep teams with multiple high end players. I mean that just isnt in the cards for us. Tyson did not like Melo and was part of the lockerroom that was divided... we could do this all day.
Im tired of Melo and his scoring. He's a HOF and terrific player but he's a very niche fit. Olympics are great but he's never EVER demonstrated ANY willingness to play off the ball in the NBA, and certainly not with the Knicks. His defense is bad, and his effort to improve that or move the ball is not good either.
you can say Melo is Phil's scapegoat. Im not high on blame. I dont really care. I want a TEAM that can be coached as a TEAM that doesnt have players with special needs or requirements. To me that means its time for this guy to move on. Go join a team with 3-4 other all stars and you can remind us all how great you CAN be.
I say just keep running him out there. Play him 38-40 minutes per. Let him take his 25+ shots a game, shoot 43% and not play any defense. We need a top pick in this draft much more than we need a happy Melo. My plan should accomplish both.
fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Think its that simple? Melo never had a winning record with MDA. They made the playoffs the year Melo was traded and Amare did the heavy lifting that year early on. They gutted the team to bring him in. Melo than didnt want to play any speedball crap. MDA tried a few things with him and he all know Melo quit on MDA. I roasted him for that. I backed off when I saw his play under Woodson and let it go with MDA/Melo are a bad fit. Obviously Melo had the one great season for us and a memorable season it was.fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Yea.. exactly. They moved him to PG and put in a system that allows everyone else to play off him. Melo had the same coach here try that with him. Want to revisit what happened? Or are you suggesting it would be better to have kept Woodson and just played ISO Melo ball for the next few years?fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lostnixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..
Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.
As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point.Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.
So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.
No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.
When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.
This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.
Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.
He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.
It's funny. Last year Harden averaged 7 assists per game and was called selfish. This year he's averaging 11.5. I wonder what changed? Is it possible they're running a system which better fits the roster and the talents of their best player?
If we have learned anything from Phil and MDA here its that Melo plays one way and one way only. Trying to get him to change will result in leaving town or grumpy tweets. Phil's big mistake was thinking he had a player he could change, and that was a 4 year NTC mistake.
I seem to remember D'Antoni making the playoffs with Melo. Melo's not a point guard, I didn't say the best idea was to have Melo become a playmaker. Only someone who didn't watch him much would think he's suited to be a playmaker. I said put in a system that suits your players. Melo has looked best in the Olympics playing off the ball. Or with a good point guard who gets the ball to Melo in the right spots. That Woodson Knicks team had great ball movement. They were one of the most prolific three point shooting teams in the league and Melo had career highs in assists in the Woodson years. Smart basketball coaches put their players in position to succeed, not put them in position to fail and then whine about it.
I like Melo. However this is the 2nd time here he's refused to conform to a team concept, instead preferring to hold the ball and do his thing.
So now the question is simple. You are 100% correct. Melo is not in a position to be the best Melo we could have. He's a 4. He's a half court ISO player. So at 32 do you want to build around him and get the best team around he can? To what avail? I am sure Isiah Thomas could get a package for KP that would put a defensive SF and better PG in place and we could win 45 games and be a top 4 seed in the East. Phil hasnt been good here, but he's also not been a disaster. I mean how do you want to move forward? Get a GM/coach who will cater the whole system and franchise around Melo so we can make the 2nd round? Or finally realize this guy isnt going to conform or do anything but what he's done for his dozen+ years in the league? Look at the 2 years he's advanced in the playoffs. Those teams were very good and very deep teams with multiple high end players. I mean that just isnt in the cards for us. Tyson did not like Melo and was part of the lockerroom that was divided... we could do this all day.
Im tired of Melo and his scoring. He's a HOF and terrific player but he's a very niche fit. Olympics are great but he's never EVER demonstrated ANY willingness to play off the ball in the NBA, and certainly not with the Knicks. His defense is bad, and his effort to improve that or move the ball is not good either.
you can say Melo is Phil's scapegoat. Im not high on blame. I dont really care. I want a TEAM that can be coached as a TEAM that doesnt have players with special needs or requirements. To me that means its time for this guy to move on. Go join a team with 3-4 other all stars and you can remind us all how great you CAN be.
I say just keep running him out there. Play him 38-40 minutes per. Let him take his 25+ shots a game, shoot 43% and not play any defense. We need a top pick in this draft much more than we need a happy Melo. My plan should accomplish both.
I don't get why folks think winning games down the stretch is about making Melo happy..Do you really think Hornacek wants this season on his record or Phil???..Do you think MSG doesn't want those playoff paydays with the Cavs in the house??...Melo might be ht 10th person on the list of people in the organization who wants to win games...