Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:Phil needs to tell Melo he'll be the 6th man next year and they're rebuilding. He should cut Rose now. But the awfulness of Phil has only partially to do with how he's handled the Melo situation. It cannot be stated enough that the situation we're in now with Melo's contract was 100% Phil's choice.
It was his choice, but it's clear we would have lost him without the NTC. For what it's worth, Phil did not want his first move in NY to be letting Melo walk for nothing.
You think if we offered 1 more guaranteed year and about $30 mil more than any other team could, Melo would have walked because we didn't give him the NTC? (And walked to a team that also couldn't give him an NTC?) It's possible but I think he would have looked worse than Phil would have.
nixluva wrote:You know not just Melo but Rose has been mostly AWFUL in closing out games! I can remember a few bad turnovers and in the Sixers loss he blew a GREAT look on a play Horny called after a timeout!!! Melo and Rose can't lay this at the feet of Hornacek or the Triangle!!! Also they once again froze KP OUT in the 4th!!!
Part of the reason we look so bad in the 4th is that all players not called melo and Rose know they aren't going to see much of the ball, so they just defer to them. Then in the last minute or so, Rose realizes he's not going to see much of the ball either so he just defers to Melo. We've wasted a while season not giving KP experience of taking big shots in the fourth- what a waste.
nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:In the league.Yet Phil is awful for wanting him to change his game or get traded?
This is why I want Melo gone.
Doesn't matter what the score is.
Doesn't matter who is on.
Melo will play like Melo in NY.
He sees this as his city, his franchise to lead and his time.
And the fact that we've lost so many close games this season, it could be the difference in a team being 31-31 right now and what we are. If Melo were a more consistent player in the 4th quarter, we would close games better.
Again, the stat was brought up. Melo is one of the worst FG% scorers in the 4th Q.
NY media ignores this about Melo. He's a major problem for the franchise. With the way he plays, he has close games well. He doesn't based on the statistics on his shooting percentage. Not too many teams win in this league at a high rate if their star player is a bottom 5 shooter in the closing quarter. Think about what DeRozan did in that Toronto game. As good as Melo's scoring skill is, we need a closer in the fourth quarter who will take the ball out of Melo's hands and be the alpha in that situation. I'm a big KP fan, but that isn't him. If we keep Melo, we must get that player.
What exactly does that say about the coaching staff.
In that same Toronto game, after a time out, instead of putting Holiday and Lee in the back court in the final seconds up 1, they left rose out there, Toronto ran a screen knowing the knicks would switch, he got the 4 inches shorter rose on him and hit a jumper right over his out stretch hands.
Nobody said you have to go to melo or rose
Horny could've made the switch tho lots of coaches leave their stars in the game in those situations. Maybe Lee or Holiday makes the shot tougher but DeRozan gets his shot off on just about everyone. It's the height he gets on his jumps. This is why we hope to draft our own STUD SF/SG who can do special things. 
Dude we make little to no in game adjustments. Which is why we loss so many close games, same rotation, same players, same dumb plays, and dread full execution on the floor at the end of damn near every one of the 14 games we loss that was decided by 5 points or less
Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:Phil needs to tell Melo he'll be the 6th man next year and they're rebuilding. He should cut Rose now. But the awfulness of Phil has only partially to do with how he's handled the Melo situation. It cannot be stated enough that the situation we're in now with Melo's contract was 100% Phil's choice.
It was his choice, but it's clear we would have lost him without the NTC. For what it's worth, Phil did not want his first move in NY to be letting Melo walk for nothing.
You think if we offered 1 more guaranteed year and about $30 mil more than any other team could, Melo would have walked because we didn't give him the NTC? (And walked to a team that also couldn't give him an NTC?) It's possible but I think he would have looked worse than Phil would have.
Yeah it's impossible to know. All i know is just about every report out there was that Melo was close to signing with Chicago, so my assumption is if there was any part of Phil's offer that wasn't included (NTC), or was a little less, he probably would have walked. But no way to know.
Knixkik wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:Phil needs to tell Melo he'll be the 6th man next year and they're rebuilding. He should cut Rose now. But the awfulness of Phil has only partially to do with how he's handled the Melo situation. It cannot be stated enough that the situation we're in now with Melo's contract was 100% Phil's choice.
It was his choice, but it's clear we would have lost him without the NTC. For what it's worth, Phil did not want his first move in NY to be letting Melo walk for nothing.
You think if we offered 1 more guaranteed year and about $30 mil more than any other team could, Melo would have walked because we didn't give him the NTC? (And walked to a team that also couldn't give him an NTC?) It's possible but I think he would have looked worse than Phil would have.
Yeah it's impossible to know. All i know is just about every report out there was that Melo was close to signing with Chicago, so my assumption is if there was any part of Phil's offer that wasn't included (NTC), or was a little less, he probably would have walked. But no way to know.
Melo was supposedly very impressed with them and on the verge of doing it. Then he heard they wouldn't max him. 4yrs $79 - it wasn't even the max. He was never taking that from Chicago. Phil made a rookie mistake on his first big contract. It happens.
Knixkik wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:Phil needs to tell Melo he'll be the 6th man next year and they're rebuilding. He should cut Rose now. But the awfulness of Phil has only partially to do with how he's handled the Melo situation. It cannot be stated enough that the situation we're in now with Melo's contract was 100% Phil's choice.
It was his choice, but it's clear we would have lost him without the NTC. For what it's worth, Phil did not want his first move in NY to be letting Melo walk for nothing.
You think if we offered 1 more guaranteed year and about $30 mil more than any other team could, Melo would have walked because we didn't give him the NTC? (And walked to a team that also couldn't give him an NTC?) It's possible but I think he would have looked worse than Phil would have.
Yeah it's impossible to know. All i know is just about every report out there was that Melo was close to signing with Chicago, so my assumption is if there was any part of Phil's offer that wasn't included (NTC), or was a little less, he probably would have walked. But no way to know.
Yeah, it is impossible to know. But it's not like "If you're a superstar, it's a given that you're entitled to an NTC." I think Dirk and Lebron are the only other 2 players in the league with one.
Product of shots. Never found efficiency in his craft, never held it as an important aspect.
Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:Phil needs to tell Melo he'll be the 6th man next year and they're rebuilding. He should cut Rose now. But the awfulness of Phil has only partially to do with how he's handled the Melo situation. It cannot be stated enough that the situation we're in now with Melo's contract was 100% Phil's choice.
It was his choice, but it's clear we would have lost him without the NTC. For what it's worth, Phil did not want his first move in NY to be letting Melo walk for nothing.
You think if we offered 1 more guaranteed year and about $30 mil more than any other team could, Melo would have walked because we didn't give him the NTC? (And walked to a team that also couldn't give him an NTC?) It's possible but I think he would have looked worse than Phil would have.
Yeah it's impossible to know. All i know is just about every report out there was that Melo was close to signing with Chicago, so my assumption is if there was any part of Phil's offer that wasn't included (NTC), or was a little less, he probably would have walked. But no way to know.
Yeah, it is impossible to know. But it's not like "If you're a superstar, it's a given that you're entitled to an NTC." I think Dirk and Lebron are the only other 2 players in the league with one.
Melo's not dumb. He knew he wanted to build businesses in New York. I sort of doubt he was all that serious about Chicago. He may have done the Chicago dance just to get Phil to give him a No Trade and trade kicker. The kicker almost makes him harder to trade than the no trade itself.
crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:Phil needs to tell Melo he'll be the 6th man next year and they're rebuilding. He should cut Rose now. But the awfulness of Phil has only partially to do with how he's handled the Melo situation. It cannot be stated enough that the situation we're in now with Melo's contract was 100% Phil's choice.
It was his choice, but it's clear we would have lost him without the NTC. For what it's worth, Phil did not want his first move in NY to be letting Melo walk for nothing.
You think if we offered 1 more guaranteed year and about $30 mil more than any other team could, Melo would have walked because we didn't give him the NTC? (And walked to a team that also couldn't give him an NTC?) It's possible but I think he would have looked worse than Phil would have.
Yeah it's impossible to know. All i know is just about every report out there was that Melo was close to signing with Chicago, so my assumption is if there was any part of Phil's offer that wasn't included (NTC), or was a little less, he probably would have walked. But no way to know.
Yeah, it is impossible to know. But it's not like "If you're a superstar, it's a given that you're entitled to an NTC." I think Dirk and Lebron are the only other 2 players in the league with one.
Melo's not dumb. He knew he wanted to build businesses in New York. I sort of doubt he was all that serious about Chicago. He may have done the Chicago dance just to get Phil to give him a No Trade and trade kicker. The kicker almost makes him harder to trade than the no trade itself.
Phil gave him a NTC because Phil was confident he could get Melo playing at an extreme high level. It was a case of a Phil being way to high on his ego. He did the same with Noah.
crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:Phil needs to tell Melo he'll be the 6th man next year and they're rebuilding. He should cut Rose now. But the awfulness of Phil has only partially to do with how he's handled the Melo situation. It cannot be stated enough that the situation we're in now with Melo's contract was 100% Phil's choice.
It was his choice, but it's clear we would have lost him without the NTC. For what it's worth, Phil did not want his first move in NY to be letting Melo walk for nothing.
You think if we offered 1 more guaranteed year and about $30 mil more than any other team could, Melo would have walked because we didn't give him the NTC? (And walked to a team that also couldn't give him an NTC?) It's possible but I think he would have looked worse than Phil would have.
Yeah it's impossible to know. All i know is just about every report out there was that Melo was close to signing with Chicago, so my assumption is if there was any part of Phil's offer that wasn't included (NTC), or was a little less, he probably would have walked. But no way to know.
Yeah, it is impossible to know. But it's not like "If you're a superstar, it's a given that you're entitled to an NTC." I think Dirk and Lebron are the only other 2 players in the league with one.
Melo's not dumb. He knew he wanted to build businesses in New York. I sort of doubt he was all that serious about Chicago. He may have done the Chicago dance just to get Phil to give him a No Trade and trade kicker. The kicker almost makes him harder to trade than the no trade itself.
Phil gave him an almost untradeable deal. Players don't get ntc. And he got the huge trade kicker. Also, the ntc and salary follow Melo so if someone trades for him they need to be sure that he is what they want for the life of his contract.
knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:In the league.Yet Phil is awful for wanting him to change his game or get traded?
This is why I want Melo gone.
Doesn't matter what the score is.
Doesn't matter who is on.
Melo will play like Melo in NY.
He sees this as his city, his franchise to lead and his time.
And the fact that we've lost so many close games this season, it could be the difference in a team being 31-31 right now and what we are. If Melo were a more consistent player in the 4th quarter, we would close games better.
Again, the stat was brought up. Melo is one of the worst FG% scorers in the 4th Q.
NY media ignores this about Melo. He's a major problem for the franchise. With the way he plays, he has close games well. He doesn't based on the statistics on his shooting percentage. Not too many teams win in this league at a high rate if their star player is a bottom 5 shooter in the closing quarter. Think about what DeRozan did in that Toronto game. As good as Melo's scoring skill is, we need a closer in the fourth quarter who will take the ball out of Melo's hands and be the alpha in that situation. I'm a big KP fan, but that isn't him. If we keep Melo, we must get that player.
What exactly does that say about the coaching staff.
In that same Toronto game, after a time out, instead of putting Holiday and Lee in the back court in the final seconds up 1, they left rose out there, Toronto ran a screen knowing the knicks would switch, he got the 4 inches shorter rose on him and hit a jumper right over his out stretch hands.
Nobody said you have to go to melo or rose
Horny could've made the switch tho lots of coaches leave their stars in the game in those situations. Maybe Lee or Holiday makes the shot tougher but DeRozan gets his shot off on just about everyone. It's the height he gets on his jumps. This is why we hope to draft our own STUD SF/SG who can do special things.
Dude we make little to no in game adjustments. Which is why we loss so many close games, same rotation, same players, same dumb plays, and dread full execution on the floor at the end of damn near every one of the 14 games we loss that was decided by 5 points or less
I hate to disagree but this is SOOOOO NOT ABOUT COACHING!!! It's not about adjustments but rather poor play by the team's best players. In particular Melo and Rose who both take the most shots in the 4th qtr.
In fact Hornacek often calls great plays and it's not his fault if they don't finish or turn it over like Melo and Rose have often done. At some point you have to accept the responsibility of the players on the floor and teams win when the best players perform.
Bonn1997 wrote:smackeddog wrote:I thank him for the tank
Yeah, the team is -4.9 points per 48 min with him on the court and +0.9 with him off it. Earlier in the season, I was giving the benefit of the doubt by saying that the numbers might not hold up as the sample increases. But they've actually gotten worse throughout the season.
Bonn, I can understand the others but you seem like a very smart guy who analyzes these things..You think that other things might be at play like starters versus bench players versus length of minutes played 1st/3rd quarter versus 2nd/4th?? Versus shot attempts over the same period versus crunch time shots versus Knicks close 4th quarter games versus the guy who plays the most minutes on a team with a negative point differential??..Any thoughts?
shinmen wrote:I think his ineptitude in the 4th is due to minutes played.
I have a different take, something Kenny Smith discussed once, which I thought was pretty insightful ( I just don't like Smith most of the time)was the difference between regular season NBA basketball and playoff basketball. He said the last few minutes of a game, are much more in the vein of playoff basketball.
Teams like Don Nelson's first run wit the Warriors ( a true Run And Gun unit) or D'Antoni's SSOL Sun squad were fun regular season units, but faltered in the playoffs.
Each possession becomes more critical. Matchup strategy is more amplified and considered. In cases where a players usage or minutes might be shaded in the regular season, the gloves come off in the playoffs. Rotations shorten. Teams have to find ways to counter different defensive looks, teams are rolling out some things they didn't show in the regular season.
IMHO, Melo's problems in the 4th quarter stem from his inability to play effective NBA style "playoff basketball" The last few minutes of the game are so much different than the first three quarters of play. This also where foul trouble comes into play and older players tend to have some disadvantages.
The best answer I can give is Melo is NOT Joe Dumars. Dumars, while being sort of a horrid GM of the Pistons, was a fantastic player, and he stepped it up a notch in playoff type ball. Not everything that's valued ends up on the stat sheet. Dumars was able to adjust his play to what his team needed at the time and place. If they needed a little more scoring, he'd do it. If they needed him to make a key defensive stop, he was there. He was so fluid off the ball, seamless, good BBIQ, always making good decisions on the floor.
This was the beauty of Linsanity, the team simply took what the defense gave them. If it meant Novak would be the most burn, then so be it. If it meant Novak would be the decoy and Lin would need to step up with more scoring, then so be it. I care less that Melo is missing shots than he's TAKING POOR SHOTS IN THE CONTEXT OF ACTUAL TEAM BASKETBALL.
TripleThreat wrote:shinmen wrote:I think his ineptitude in the 4th is due to minutes played.
I have a different take, something Kenny Smith discussed once, which I thought was pretty insightful ( I just don't like Smith most of the time)was the difference between regular season NBA basketball and playoff basketball. He said the last few minutes of a game, are much more in the vein of playoff basketball.
Teams like Don Nelson's first run wit the Warriors ( a true Run And Gun unit) or D'Antoni's SSOL Sun squad were fun regular season units, but faltered in the playoffs.
Each possession becomes more critical. Matchup strategy is more amplified and considered. In cases where a players usage or minutes might be shaded in the regular season, the gloves come off in the playoffs. Rotations shorten. Teams have to find ways to counter different defensive looks, teams are rolling out some things they didn't show in the regular season.
IMHO, Melo's problems in the 4th quarter stem from his inability to play effective NBA style "playoff basketball" The last few minutes of the game are so much different than the first three quarters of play. This also where foul trouble comes into play and older players tend to have some disadvantages.
The best answer I can give is Melo is NOT Joe Dumars. Dumars, while being sort of a horrid GM of the Pistons, was a fantastic player, and he stepped it up a notch in playoff type ball. Not everything that's valued ends up on the stat sheet. Dumars was able to adjust his play to what his team needed at the time and place. If they needed a little more scoring, he'd do it. If they needed him to make a key defensive stop, he was there. He was so fluid off the ball, seamless, good BBIQ, always making good decisions on the floor.
This was the beauty of Linsanity, the team simply took what the defense gave them. If it meant Novak would be the most burn, then so be it. If it meant Novak would be the decoy and Lin would need to step up with more scoring, then so be it. I care less that Melo is missing shots than he's TAKING POOR SHOTS IN THE CONTEXT OF ACTUAL TEAM BASKETBALL.
Linsanity was awesome but some perspective is needed to go along with this post. Five of the seven wins came against bottom six teams in the nba at the time. Also, the Knicks finished 18-6 under Woodson and Melo won two players of the week in April on a run that saved the season and got the Knicks into the playoffs. Lin proved he was an nba player but once he became a known player and was scouted things changed for him (see second nets game/DWill).
TripleThreat wrote:shinmen wrote:I think his ineptitude in the 4th is due to minutes played.
I have a different take, something Kenny Smith discussed once, which I thought was pretty insightful ( I just don't like Smith most of the time)was the difference between regular season NBA basketball and playoff basketball. He said the last few minutes of a game, are much more in the vein of playoff basketball.
Teams like Don Nelson's first run wit the Warriors ( a true Run And Gun unit) or D'Antoni's SSOL Sun squad were fun regular season units, but faltered in the playoffs.
Each possession becomes more critical. Matchup strategy is more amplified and considered. In cases where a players usage or minutes might be shaded in the regular season, the gloves come off in the playoffs. Rotations shorten. Teams have to find ways to counter different defensive looks, teams are rolling out some things they didn't show in the regular season.
IMHO, Melo's problems in the 4th quarter stem from his inability to play effective NBA style "playoff basketball" The last few minutes of the game are so much different than the first three quarters of play. This also where foul trouble comes into play and older players tend to have some disadvantages.
The best answer I can give is Melo is NOT Joe Dumars. Dumars, while being sort of a horrid GM of the Pistons, was a fantastic player, and he stepped it up a notch in playoff type ball. Not everything that's valued ends up on the stat sheet. Dumars was able to adjust his play to what his team needed at the time and place. If they needed a little more scoring, he'd do it. If they needed him to make a key defensive stop, he was there. He was so fluid off the ball, seamless, good BBIQ, always making good decisions on the floor.
This was the beauty of Linsanity, the team simply took what the defense gave them. If it meant Novak would be the most burn, then so be it. If it meant Novak would be the decoy and Lin would need to step up with more scoring, then so be it. I care less that Melo is missing shots than he's TAKING POOR SHOTS IN THE CONTEXT OF ACTUAL TEAM BASKETBALL.
YEAH THE TRUE BEAUTY OF LINSANITY WAS IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE KNICKS IN THE PLAYOFFS. BUT LET'S NOT HARP ON THAT POINT WHILE WE CONTINUE THE MELOHATE CIRCLE JERK.
Yes, and while some of the board revert back to wet dreams of PP again, please don't bother to check the clutch stats for this season, where your DOUCHE Melo is 15th in the league right now, shooting 40.5%.
http://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-trad...
