Randle showed more tonight than Baker has shown all season. Baker sucks-- combo guard with no shot = dleaguer
Randle is a true pg
nyknickzingis wrote:crzymdups wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:crzymdups wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:So Melo couldn't lead this team to the playoffs?
-4.9 sticks out like a sore thumb right now
Uh... they beat this same Magic team last week with Melo, while Vucevic was playing, and led comfortably the whole game.
Thanks for making my point
Melo adds little value to the team
Like I've been saying for a while
He's a great a scorer
But his net impact is neither here or there
This team wins 25-30 games without Melo
Now trade Melo for a 3nD wing and some bench depth for the 25 million he takes up the team makes the payoffs IMO
How does Melo's supposed non impact account for Vucevic being out?
You want to talk about impact? This game turned when KP/Willy went out and KOQ came in to end the third. Or does not that fit your narrative?
KP was important in the 2nd quarter and Willy is a rookie
I never have said Willy and KP lead the Knicks to the playoffs
I've said Melo has enough talent in NY to get to the playoffs
This team with KP, Rose, role players like Lance. holiday, OQuinn, Lee could win 30 games as is.
So you want to ignore the -4.9 rating Melo has or that he's the fifth worst shooter in the league in the clutch.
A real star or franchise player easily takes this team to the playoffs in the East. No doubt about it. But it's actually a blessing Melo is who he is.
It's so weird that Melo made the playoffs every single year of his career before he started playing the Triangle.
If you're going to use beating a tanking Orlando squad missing their best big man as proof that Melo should have the Knicks in the playoffs? I mean... wha?
I am in agreement that the Knicks need to move on from Melo, but blaming Melo for the sins of Phil and Horny is pretty lame. Did Melo sign Noah? Did he trade for Rose? Rose is an absolutely atrocious defender, which is mix of coaching and Rose's effort - Elfrid Peyton had a triple double tonight against Rose! Noah hasn't been healthy... which we all knew was going to happen... I mean... how is that Melo's fault?
The team was in trouble from the start. Then in the second quarter, KP and the 2nd unit played really well got them back in it. I believe KP had 8 points in the 2nd and the team was able to get back into the game.
Third quarter we let the game slip almost, but then fantastic play from Randle, Thomas, O'Quinn and Holiday helped us seal the game.
I really like this team outside of Melo and Noah. The two biggest problems early on in the season were Melo's high usage rate low pasing rate (Which is why Phil said what he has many times) and Noah's inept play on offense.
Rose had a bad game but we need a starting point guard. There is no way Randle or Baker can start full time. You won't find a starting point guard cheap, so I'm open to virtually any PG (including Rose) who is good at driving and making shots inside while also being able to recogize the open man. The Rose/KP chemistry has improved considerably from midseason.
We need to draft more athletic clay, get some more defensive talent in free agency. Forget offense. We need an on the ball defender. Maybe Tony Allen, Thabo Sefolosha or someone like that IF they have some gas left in the tank (I don't watch either this season but I know they are free agents).Trade Melo for youth and athleticism. Austin Rivers and some capspace with a pick is fine for me.
Team needs to compete every night. Loved tonight's effort. Keep it up.
The only ?? I have is who starts at PG next year if we let Rose walk. Holiday will command $100+ million over 4 years. Plus he may not choose us. Then there's Paul and Curry who will not come. What's left out there? Darren Collison? He's getting up there in age. I don't really have a solution at PG unless we draft Lonzo or Fultz. I am not a big fan of Dennis Smith or NC point guards.
nixluva wrote:The win was worth it to see the kids shine in particular Randle!!! We all wanted this kid to make the team and now that with a bit of luck he's back where he should've been all along, it feels good. He showed pretty much what we saw in him. So between Willy, Baker, Holiday and Randle that's not a bad development in a lost year.
Add Dr. Crash 2.0 to that list. Also, I am in the minority here but I still like N'Dour.
crazy - Melo's decine began before Phil came. The season Phil came that team missed the playoffs and was doing pretty bad. He also had some loaded teams. You're blaming the Triangle for Melo's decline and style of play? lol Go ask George Karl about Melo. Or D'Antoni.
So either 3 of the best coaches of the last 20 years and in Phil's case top 2 with Popovic are all wrong about Melo, or maybe the problem is Melo's style of play? He plays completely different as a Knick than he does when he's playing on teams where he isn't viewing himself as the man. My criticism on him is harsh because he can be a much better impact player if he isolated less, if he took more spot ups and if he moved the ball to the open teammate more often. He stalls the offense and he hurts team chemistry. This is not debatable. This is what D'Antoni, Karl and Phil have all but implied.
But at this point, whatever. It's clear you don't see that this team should be in the playoffs and isn't becuase the veteran star talent (Rose, Melo) on the team underperformed greatly. You only call out coaching. I've admitted the coaching was bad on D and Horny needed to have a stronger tighter least on vets. You can't admit Melo has been bad for the Knicks this season -4.9 on net impact and 5th worst shooter in the league in 4th Q.
Ironic without Melo the team closes the 4th quarter brilliantly on offense. Oh but the Triangle and Hornachek sucks .... 110 points without Melo. Melo should focus on being a spot up in the offense created by system or point guard and to give max effort on defense. Looking for the open man. Point forward type of play. Defensively max effort. Even if it means foul trouble (which he is never in for a reason). We'll see less points but a better impact. He has all the talent to do it and play that way. It's just not how he sees himself playing as a Knick.
crzymdups wrote:WaltLongmire wrote:SocraticBallin22 wrote:Randle in anti-Tank. He is hurting our top 6 pick right now proving he should have made this team out of training camp (something I've been bellyaching about all season).
Only thing I don't understand is why the Sixers cut him...they can use a PG, but did not resign him.
He has looked good, though. Come from a good college program and had a good year overseas...Sasha should have been let go at some point, even though he is a good citizen, and triangle guy.
No idea about the Sixers, but Randle has Triangle experience at Westchester.
He's also +29 tonight in 22min.
Held his own on D...seems to have long arms. He also looked very confident moving the ball.
I wish we could have seen him play big minutes vs GS to see how his ball handling holds up against a superior defensive team.
Liked what I saw. Something else to look forward to the rest of the season.
Again who thought randle was a bad defender? Lol the guy is a goood defender and a very good shooter... more minutes please
NYKBocker wrote:nixluva wrote:The win was worth it to see the kids shine in particular Randle!!! We all wanted this kid to make the team and now that with a bit of luck he's back where he should've been all along, it feels good. He showed pretty much what we saw in him. So between Willy, Baker, Holiday and Randle that's not a bad development in a lost year.
Add Dr. Crash 2.0 to that list. Also, I am in the minority here but I still like N'Dour.
Wish N'dour could get some serious minutes now and then.
nyknickzingis wrote:crazy - Melo's decine began before Phil came. The season Phil came that team missed the playoffs and was doing pretty bad. He also had some loaded teams. You're blaming the Triangle for Melo's decline and style of play? lol Go ask George Karl about Melo. Or D'Antoni.So either 3 of the best coaches of the last 20 years and in Phil's case top 2 with Popovic are all wrong about Melo, or maybe the problem is Melo's style of play? He plays completely different as a Knick than he does when he's playing on teams where he isn't viewing himself as the man. My criticism on him is harsh because he can be a much better impact player if he isolated less, if he took more spot ups and if he moved the ball to the open teammate more often. He stalls the offense and he hurts team chemistry. This is not debatable. This is what D'Antoni, Karl and Phil have all but implied.
But at this point, whatever. It's clear you don't see that this team should be in the playoffs and isn't becuase the veteran star talent (Rose, Melo) on the team underperformed greatly. You only call out coaching. I've admitted the coaching was bad on D and Horny needed to have a stronger tighter least on vets. You can't admit Melo has been bad for the Knicks this season -4.9 on net impact and 5th worst shooter in the league in 4th Q.
Ironic without Melo the team closes the 4th quarter brilliantly on offense. Oh but the Triangle and Hornachek sucks .... 110 points
Again you using a win over a tanking Orlando team missing its best big man. That's just kinda sad. The Knicks gave up 38pts in the third quarter and Orlando ran out of gas after losing a close one to Washington last night and had no big man to guard KOQ when KOQ came in after Willy got a black eye.
Phil hasn't coached Melo. He's "coaching from the 10th row", very much to the team's detriment. To call Karl a top 3 coach of any era is quite a bold statement. Same with MDA. Mike D'Antoni needs a very particular type of roster to win, particularly he needs a pick and roll PG. Melo is not a pick and roll PG. Melo's made it just as far as your supposed top 3 coaches D'Antoni and Karl have - the Western Conference finals. Where do Rick Carlisle, Erik Spoelstra, Larry Brown, Doc Rivers, Steve Kerr stand?
I've said many times that Melo has been bad this season and that it is time to move on. The part I don't agree with is pinning this all on him. It's time to rebuild... I'm just not sure I believe Phil and Rambis and Hornacek will take us to the promised land... or even the playoffs. Time will tell. But it's a little old that Knicks fans like to blame their best player. This used to happen with Ewing for years, and when the Knicks finally traded him it was a terrible trade and the team stank for years and years. I question your judgment because you have said Rose should be re-signed... which is just a terrible idea. Dude was -23 tonight. I mean, he's good for the tank, but not if you want to win bball games. Guy doesn't defend at all. My guess is you'll be blaming him for things next year if the Knicks sign him and trade Melo.
What i miss today guys? Melo wad out? Is he hurt or did they just sit him? Can't beleive I misded Randles first game was really wanting to see him. KOQ had a good game it looks like and the magic suck
Rose doesn't stall the offense like Melo though. He goes right away for his move which is almost always a drive. That's why I have less issue with him, he plays a more attacking high percentage game with the constant drives and it breaks down a defense. I'll never be a big Rose fan. My reasoning in being open to re-sign him is if we don't draft Fultz or Ball which we aren't, then who the hell is our starting PG next year? The PG market is basically Curry, Paul, Hill, Holiday and then it's probably Rose and some other guys. Rose may be the only starting level PG we can sign.
Ideally we draft a point guard that is starting level and let Rose walk. I just don't think it will be easy to do that. Additionally I only want him back at certain contract that is movable in trade. You won't see me want to see him stay for 100+ million. If he's willing to take 60-70$M in guaranteed money with a team option after that, I am open to it because the starters do need an attacking guard. Rose has bad games but he also has many good games. We can't rely on Randle/Baker every night.
I'd love to get Holiday but he will be expensive and has a big injury history as well. He may not come either. Same with George Hill very expensive and not coming most likely. Curry/Paul definitely not coming. Not many options unless we want to overpay Darren Collison or someone like that. It's easy to say lets get rid of Rose or cut him now, but who do we sign in free agency to be the starting 1 if we can't draft a NBA ready starting 1 (or we like someone better with more talent at another position, because you always draft best player available)? I'm all ears.
meloshouldgo wrote:What i miss today guys? Melo wad out? Is he hurt or did they just sit him? Can't beleive I misded Randles first game was really wanting to see him. KOQ had a good game it looks like and the magic suck
I believe Melo did actually tweak his knee in the GS game.
Randle was great. Just did the little things. Shows what a difference it makes to have a Triangle saavy PG. He looked calm and confident. Looked right at home.
nixluva wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:What i miss today guys? Melo wad out? Is he hurt or did they just sit him? Can't beleive I misded Randles first game was really wanting to see him. KOQ had a good game it looks like and the magic suck
I believe Melo did actually tweak his knee in the GS game.
Randle was great. Just did the little things. Shows what a difference it makes to have a Triangle saavy PG. He looked calm and confident. Looked right at home.
He was indeed. But what I loved was the infectious D that Lance Thomas, O'Quinn, Holiday, Lee and Randle played. That was truly marvelous to watch. They literally moved their feet in sync and were on the ball like hawks. After this disgustingly bad defensive season, I saw that as something to look forward to for next season. That showing alone should warrant Phil to want to make that his 2nd unit nexy year. And man, Lance is just such an important piece, it's crazy.
We may have a fabulous four going forward with KP, WillyBilly, Randle and Baker. If it turns out this way then we might need Tatum or Bridges or Isaac to replace Melo. Melo has to be traded or phased out for next season.
I was hoping all game that O'Quinn wasn't going to play because i felt that this is the type of game where his grit and toughness would help us to a win. Putting him together on the floor with Lance who always plays 110% and Randle who was actually playing defense i knew would be trouble for the tank. The irony is if Melo and Rose played that fourth quarter, we likely lose.
90sKnicks wrote:I was hoping all game that O'Quinn wasn't going to play because i felt that this is the type of game where his grit and toughness would help us to a win. Putting him together on the floor with Lance who always plays 110% and Randle who was actually playing defense i knew would be trouble for the tank. The irony is if Melo and Rose played that fourth quarter, we likely lose.
Yeah... it was nice to see Chasson play well, but I winced when KOQ came in. He was playing against his old team, you knew he'd do well. Every win hurts right now. It sucks to be in that position, but they're essentially doubling the pain of this terrible season by winning these games.
crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:magicTs wrote:Knixkik wrote:magicTs wrote:dwiley20 wrote:fuck tanking i want to make the playoffs Go Knicks!!!! real fans dont tank
Lmao. We definitely won't make the play offs and yet we won't tank. And so we will continue to be complete also rans for years to come. Just great. Whole franchise has rocks for brains.
Again, what do you expect the knicks to do? How do they tank this game?
Play Rose for 48 minutes. He's -23 pts in 27 mins.
Randle was +27 in 26 mins.
The goal is to see what young guys do too. It goes hand and hand with tanking. Orlando is simply tank proof.
They have zero outside shooting and all they did in the 4th quarter was pull up to take contested threes.
I wonder if Orlando was trying to lose on purpose? It seemed like they just stopped even attempting offense in the 4th.
Anyway, I'm happy about Randle's play tonight and I hope he earns more. KOQ played well. Holiday, too.
Orlando wasn't trying to lose. They had their starters out there. Players don't purposely play bad.
knicks1248 wrote:smackeddog wrote:If we lose this we have a shot at the 4th or 5th pick in the draft. If we win we fall back to the 11th pick. I will leave it to your individual consciences whether you want to to route for victory in this game or not...
suppose we win the next 6, where would we be then?
Out of the playoffs but with a worse draft pick
meloshouldgo wrote:What i miss today guys? Melo wad out? Is he hurt or did they just sit him? Can't beleive I misded Randles first game was really wanting to see him. KOQ had a good game it looks like and the magic suck
You missed us going from having potentially the 6th pick and being within spitting distance of the 4th, to now having the 11th pick.
crzymdups wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Rose doesn't stall the offense like Melo though. He goes right away for his move which is almost always a drive. That's why I have less issue with him, he plays a more attacking high percentage game with the constant drives and it breaks down a defense. I'll never be a big Rose fan. My reasoning in being open to re-sign him is if we don't draft Fultz or Ball which we aren't, then who the hell is our starting PG next year? The PG market is basically Curry, Paul, Hill, Holiday and then it's probably Rose and some other guys. Rose may be the only starting level PG we can sign. Ideally we draft a point guard that is starting level and let Rose walk. I just don't think it will be easy to do that. Additionally I only want him back at certain contract that is movable in trade. You won't see me want to see him stay for 100+ million. If he's willing to take 60-70$M in guaranteed money with a team option after that, I am open to it because the starters do need an attacking guard. Rose has bad games but he also has many good games. We can't rely on Randle/Baker every night.
I'd love to get Holiday but he will be expensive and has a big injury history as well. He may not come either. Same with George Hill very expensive and not coming most likely. Curry/Paul definitely not coming. Not many options unless we want to overpay Darren Collison or someone like that. It's easy to say lets get rid of Rose or cut him now, but who do we sign in free agency to be the starting 1 if we can't draft a NBA ready starting 1 (or we like someone better with more talent at another position, because you always draft best player available)? I'm all ears.
That is just disgusting to watch
