Knicks · What the hill is this team? (page 1)
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are bad
EnySpree wrote:We are supposed to be bad. We went that to pick.... what makes it bad is the fact we have to defer to 2 losers in Melo and Rose. If we are going to lose I want tho see our young guys gaining experience. I don't want to see them looking for Melo to Chuck up a shot or for rose to drive to the basket. I want to see the ball movement and the camaraderie. With Melo and Rose the team looks like they are just starting preseason. Like this is game one of tv's year not game 63. Knicks are bad. The future will be stalled until rose and Melo leave
I want the same things you want. But, right now I want to lose more than I want to see the youth movement. Too many minutes for the kids may mean we go win a game or 3. Let our stars shine. When you want to lose, bring in the losers. As frustrating as this is to watch, it's working!
Knixkik wrote:Every game there are new threads created complaining about when we win and when we lose.
That's fine but this is a team without direction and too many inconsistent players. We need to find effecient ones
BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are bad
Ask Phil.
crzymdups wrote:Briggs, I feel like you need to stop overreacting to each game at this point. This team is done for the year. Impossible to evaluate til next training camp.
I look at the Bucks and see a plan. I look at the Knicks I see a disaster. Can you imagine us losing what the Bucks have lost? But youre right--the best thing is to lose every game--we need a no brainer.
BRIGGS wrote:crzymdups wrote:Briggs, I feel like you need to stop overreacting to each game at this point. This team is done for the year. Impossible to evaluate til next training camp.I look at the Bucks and see a plan. I look at the Knicks I see a disaster. Can you imagine us losing what the Bucks have lost? But youre right--the best thing is to lose every game--we need a no brainer.
The bucks are only 4 games ahead of us.
Our plan is to lose and get a high pick, see if we can move melo in the offseason, let rose walk.
BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are bad
I agree. I'm not sure what Phil was thinking with his big deals over the summer. Was it rebuilding, was it giving melo one more shot with some veteran talent.
If so, he lost that gamble big time, possibly set the franchise back vs holding pat, building on what we had (Lopez, et al) and some of the nice small pieces he added (willy, Kuz, Randle).
It's a fair question. I see a bunch of role players and then a hodge podge of players that probably aren't going to be here long term. We want to move Melo, don't know who/why would want Rose back.
What's left? KP and a rag tag group of players that might honestly not be in the NBA were they not contributing on our sinking ship.
It just didn't happen.
Longterm the only bad move we've made is sign Noah.
Rose is a free agent.
Lee is a heck of a player for the price we got him,
Willy was a great 4 year investment, Kuz was cheap.
Lance Thomas a nice 2-way role player.
Jennings was a free agent going into the summer who we cut.
The reasons for the failure will be broken down all offseason.
I believe the primary problem is Melo does not fit the team or vice versa, the team does not fit Melo. Last night we had a 10 point lead. Melo is sitting out. He comes back in, for KP. The team for some crazy reason begins to force feed Melo the ball. Melo gets the ball late in the shot clock, holds it too long, stalling. We did a few minutes in a row, and it just killed our flow on offense. We never recovered after that. Blew a 10 point lead.
Melo needs to be coached differently and play with a different group. Same for the rest of this team. They need to get as far away from Melo as possible. The problem with Melo will always remain. He at some point in the game, will need to play isolation basketball and do it more than just here or there. When the team plays that way it kills their flow. Players ask why the team does not play together. How can you play together when virtually every game, there's going to be a stretch of the game where the team completely abandons ball movement and goes into feed Melo/Melo iso mode. I think Melo can be a winning player if he has a better player than him on the floor, who pushes Melo to be more of a 2nd option, such that he doesn't feel the need to be that guy. This is why he should welcome a trade to the Clippers (Paul) or CLE (Lebron).
For the tank though, the combination of having Melo, Rose and this group will work well. The team will never play up to it's talent and find ways to lose when they should have no business losing.
We can blame the Knicks front office all we want but outside of Noah they did well talent wise. Every single team who plays us (I watch alot of teams opposing commentary) compliment our talent. The talent is there with Melo, KP, Rose, Lee, Willy, Thomas, Holiday (before he got cut, Jennings as well). They just don't play together throughout the game or consistently. Jennings said that in Washington about us, and KP has said that many times as well.
When the 2nd unit plays with KP/Lee (2 of our starters) we see ball movement, defensive energy. All the right things. So the coaches get the 2nd unit to play well and the right way. Not the starters, not the Melo/Rose/KP combination. Blame Hornachek if you want, because it is his responsibility to get talent to play the right way. He has not with Melo/Rose and the staters. I don't blame Phil for this season, though. He got talent. The talent is top 5-6 in the East. We underachieved. Only bad move Phil made this year was signing Noah.
nyknickzingis wrote:The team took a risk with Rose. They thought if they already had two players like Melo and KP, that adding Rose, Noah, Lee, Jennings to them would make them alot better.It just didn't happen.
Longterm the only bad move we've made is sign Noah.Rose is a free agent.
Lee is a heck of a player for the price we got him,
Willy was a great 4 year investment, Kuz was cheap.
Lance Thomas a nice 2-way role player.
Jennings was a free agent going into the summer who we cut.The reasons for the failure will be broken down all offseason.
I believe the primary problem is Melo does not fit the team or vice versa, the team does not fit Melo. Last night we had a 10 point lead. Melo is sitting out. He comes back in, for KP. The team for some crazy reason begins to force feed Melo the ball. Melo gets the ball late in the shot clock, holds it too long, stalling. We did a few minutes in a row, and it just killed our flow on offense. We never recovered after that. Blew a 10 point lead.
Melo needs to be coached differently and play with a different group. Same for the rest of this team. They need to get as far away from Melo as possible. The problem with Melo will always remain. He at some point in the game, will need to play isolation basketball and do it more than just here or there. When the team plays that way it kills their flow. Players ask why the team does not play together. How can you play together when virtually every game, there's going to be a stretch of the game where the team completely abandons ball movement and goes into feed Melo/Melo iso mode. I think Melo can be a winning player if he has a better player than him on the floor, who pushes Melo to be more of a 2nd option, such that he doesn't feel the need to be that guy. This is why he should welcome a trade to the Clippers (Paul) or CLE (Lebron).
For the tank though, the combination of having Melo, Rose and this group will work well. The team will never play up to it's talent and find ways to lose when they should have no business losing.
We can blame the Knicks front office all we want but outside of Noah they did well talent wise. Every single team who plays us (I watch alot of teams opposing commentary) compliment our talent. The talent is there with Melo, KP, Rose, Lee, Willy, Thomas, Holiday (before he got cut, Jennings as well). They just don't play together throughout the game or consistently. Jennings said that in Washington about us, and KP has said that many times as well.
When the 2nd unit plays with KP/Lee (2 of our starters) we see ball movement, defensive energy. All the right things. So the coaches get the 2nd unit to play well and the right way. Not the starters, not the Melo/Rose/KP combination. Blame Hornachek if you want, because it is his responsibility to get talent to play the right way. He has not with Melo/Rose and the staters. I don't blame Phil for this season, though. He got talent. The talent is top 5-6 in the East. We underachieved. Only bad move Phil made this year was signing Noah.
Lee is not an NBA starter. He's inconsistent and he'll be 32. Again we could've had Seth Curry for 4-5 mm or Lee for 13 not a brilliant choice by dr phil
BRIGGS wrote:Knixkik wrote:Every game there are new threads created complaining about when we win and when we lose.That's fine but this is a team without direction and too many inconsistent players. We need to find effecient ones
We are a rebuilding team. Rebuilding around KP, who will be inconsistent by nature, as most 2nd year players are. That is the direction. It's very clear.
Look, I would have stood pat over the summer, kept Lopez, Calderon, Langston & Grant.
I think it's fair to say we would have had the same record? Because that same group basically won more games last year. And I would still have added Kuz, Willy, Plumlee.
That group has a collective salary of $27M this year, vs.:
Noah, Lee, Rose & Holiday @ $50M.
So clearly - we could have kept the roster, perhaps kept a player like Derrick Williams who will undoubtedly play a part in helping the Cavs repeat and win a championship- and perhaps added someone else.
It's the same story over the next few years, and that is baring anything that happens with Holiday and Rose:
2017/18 $21m vs. $29m
2018/19 $17m vs. $30m
2019/20 $0m vs. $32M
Look, I love Lee, but how many games has he help us win, what side of 30 is he on?
The only small upside to the Rose/Lopez deal is a second rounder, is that worth paying $32M in 2019/20?
BRIGGS wrote:crzymdups wrote:Briggs, I feel like you need to stop overreacting to each game at this point. This team is done for the year. Impossible to evaluate til next training camp.I look at the Bucks and see a plan. I look at the Knicks I see a disaster. Can you imagine us losing what the Bucks have lost? But youre right--the best thing is to lose every game--we need a no brainer.
Bucks lose Middleton, then he comes back when Parker goes out. Bucks still a disappointment most of this year. They are 4 games ahead of us.
Briggs, you tend to over react.
So we need more efficient players today? What about the "athletes" you wanted last week. Ok, we need "Efficient athletic players"!
Then we'll need "Fundamentally sound efficient athletic players"! Might as well add "High IQ, defensive minded,Fundamentally sound efficient athletic players"!
So basically you think we should start fresh with a new president? Maybe the lack of a cohesive plan is born from the many changes to management and coach's we have had over the years? Perhaps the lack of picks has added to this?
The results speak for themselves but neither you or I are adding anything really tangible other than an exercise to quell frustration.
franco12 wrote:Let me ask you a simple question. If it WAS a straight up rebuild what would you do differently?BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are badI agree. I'm not sure what Phil was thinking with his big deals over the summer. Was it rebuilding, was it giving melo one more shot with some veteran talent.
If so, he lost that gamble big time, possibly set the franchise back vs holding pat, building on what we had (Lopez, et al) and some of the nice small pieces he added (willy, Kuz, Randle).It's a fair question. I see a bunch of role players and then a hodge podge of players that probably aren't going to be here long term. We want to move Melo, don't know who/why would want Rose back.
What's left? KP and a rag tag group of players that might honestly not be in the NBA were they not contributing on our sinking ship.
Knicks brought in:
Willy (22)
Kuz (27)
NDour (24)
Plumlee (24)
Baker (23)
Then when it was clear the season was shot we cut Jennings to look at Randle (23)
Knicks started the season with rookies on the roster and have added another. People assume rebuild means tank, and that you cant sign a player that fits a need. KOQ was not very good last year. Wily is a rookie. Noah is a system guy and ball mover and a high IQ player. You can see what Phil likes. Obviously it has not worked out as he's been a poor fit with our ball stoppers and he's been hurt... but I would love to know the expectation.
Briggs wants Seth Curry, but Seth is not a very good NBA player, and he's not as good as Lee. His agenda changes daily. Franco what would your offseason rebuild have looked like? The only young guy they gave up was Grant, who has been just as bad in Chi as he was in NY.
Just curious if you were running the team what would be different. Phil is clearly looking for guys that fit and that he can develop. 5 rookies and in a year where we didnt have a first rounder we have one of the best rookies in the NBA in Willy. That kid can really play.
Nalod wrote:BRIGGS wrote:crzymdups wrote:Briggs, I feel like you need to stop overreacting to each game at this point. This team is done for the year. Impossible to evaluate til next training camp.I look at the Bucks and see a plan. I look at the Knicks I see a disaster. Can you imagine us losing what the Bucks have lost? But youre right--the best thing is to lose every game--we need a no brainer.
Bucks lose Middleton, then he comes back when Parker goes out. Bucks still a disappointment most of this year. They are 4 games ahead of us.
Briggs, you tend to over react.
So we need more efficient players today? What about the "athletes" you wanted last week. Ok, we need "Efficient athletic players"!
Then we'll need "Fundamentally sound efficient athletic players"! Might as well add "High IQ, defensive minded,Fundamentally sound efficient athletic players"!So basically you think we should start fresh with a new president? Maybe the lack of a cohesive plan is born from the many changes to management and coach's we have had over the years? Perhaps the lack of picks has added to this?
The results speak for themselves but neither you or I are adding anything really tangible other than an exercise to quell frustration.
Phil has been in charge the last three years. The only change has been the result of his decisions.
I think he's lacked a cohesive plan, unless his plan was to have 3 different coaches, turning the roster over 3x over 3 years- and about to be 4x in 4 years.
I thought Phil was better than Dolan, but now I'm not so sure.
I think the criticism of Phil never having been a GM is accurate. He's made some nice moves, some nice gets, but be honest - Briggs, you, I or just about anyone on this board could have done the same, or close to it- and not cost $12m per to do it.
franco12 wrote:It's not just Noah.Lee is very good and is easy to move if we are inclined. He is a nice veteran player who defends and moves the ball. Grant and Galloway are not very good. LG is a nice scrappy player but he does nothing much better than Ron Baker and that isnt flattering. Noah's deal looks really bad right now. Time will tell but I still think some of his haters will end up eating some crow.Look, I would have stood pat over the summer, kept Lopez, Calderon, Langston & Grant.
I think it's fair to say we would have had the same record? Because that same group basically won more games last year. And I would still have added Kuz, Willy, Plumlee.
That group has a collective salary of $27M this year, vs.:
Noah, Lee, Rose & Holiday @ $50M.
So clearly - we could have kept the roster, perhaps kept a player like Derrick Williams who will undoubtedly play a part in helping the Cavs repeat and win a championship- and perhaps added someone else.
It's the same story over the next few years, and that is baring anything that happens with Holiday and Rose:
2017/18 $21m vs. $29m
2018/19 $17m vs. $30m
2019/20 $0m vs. $32MLook, I love Lee, but how many games has he help us win, what side of 30 is he on?
The only small upside to the Rose/Lopez deal is a second rounder, is that worth paying $32M in 2019/20?
Since he left himself an out there is more success and upside to the 2nd tier plan. Now Phil can focus more on building and development of a younger core. Picks and Cap Space will make this a very interesting summer for the 2nd tier plan which will now become the Tier 1 plan.
franco12 wrote:Nalod wrote:BRIGGS wrote:crzymdups wrote:Briggs, I feel like you need to stop overreacting to each game at this point. This team is done for the year. Impossible to evaluate til next training camp.I look at the Bucks and see a plan. I look at the Knicks I see a disaster. Can you imagine us losing what the Bucks have lost? But youre right--the best thing is to lose every game--we need a no brainer.
Bucks lose Middleton, then he comes back when Parker goes out. Bucks still a disappointment most of this year. They are 4 games ahead of us.
Briggs, you tend to over react.
So we need more efficient players today? What about the "athletes" you wanted last week. Ok, we need "Efficient athletic players"!
Then we'll need "Fundamentally sound efficient athletic players"! Might as well add "High IQ, defensive minded,Fundamentally sound efficient athletic players"!So basically you think we should start fresh with a new president? Maybe the lack of a cohesive plan is born from the many changes to management and coach's we have had over the years? Perhaps the lack of picks has added to this?
The results speak for themselves but neither you or I are adding anything really tangible other than an exercise to quell frustration.
Phil has been in charge the last three years. The only change has been the result of his decisions.
I think he's lacked a cohesive plan, unless his plan was to have 3 different coaches, turning the roster over 3x over 3 years- and about to be 4x in 4 years.
I thought Phil was better than Dolan, but now I'm not so sure.
I think the criticism of Phil never having been a GM is accurate. He's made some nice moves, some nice gets, but be honest - Briggs, you, I or just about anyone on this board could have done the same, or close to it- and not cost $12m per to do it.
Same for Walsh, Grunwald too??
This is awesome. Of course in hindsight you could have produced mediocrity. Thats easy.
Tell me, who would you have taken in the draft? Problem a pro does not read draft express or Isola, they have actually make their own decision.
A lot of people wanted Mudiay or Winslow. They might still be very good pro's going forward mind you, but when your on the clock to make trades, shed players, change coach's you have limited info, and no benefit of hindsight.
Phil's record speaks for itself, but when you put your self back in the moment you can only then value trades based on what was available at the time.