Knicks · What the hill is this team? (page 2)
franco12 wrote:Nalod wrote:BRIGGS wrote:crzymdups wrote:Briggs, I feel like you need to stop overreacting to each game at this point. This team is done for the year. Impossible to evaluate til next training camp.I look at the Bucks and see a plan. I look at the Knicks I see a disaster. Can you imagine us losing what the Bucks have lost? But youre right--the best thing is to lose every game--we need a no brainer.
Bucks lose Middleton, then he comes back when Parker goes out. Bucks still a disappointment most of this year. They are 4 games ahead of us.
Briggs, you tend to over react.
So we need more efficient players today? What about the "athletes" you wanted last week. Ok, we need "Efficient athletic players"!
Then we'll need "Fundamentally sound efficient athletic players"! Might as well add "High IQ, defensive minded,Fundamentally sound efficient athletic players"!So basically you think we should start fresh with a new president? Maybe the lack of a cohesive plan is born from the many changes to management and coach's we have had over the years? Perhaps the lack of picks has added to this?
The results speak for themselves but neither you or I are adding anything really tangible other than an exercise to quell frustration.
Phil has been in charge the last three years. The only change has been the result of his decisions.
I think he's lacked a cohesive plan, unless his plan was to have 3 different coaches, turning the roster over 3x over 3 years- and about to be 4x in 4 years.
I thought Phil was better than Dolan, but now I'm not so sure.
I think the criticism of Phil never having been a GM is accurate. He's made some nice moves, some nice gets, but be honest - Briggs, you, I or just about anyone on this board could have done the same, or close to it- and not cost $12m per to do it.
Same for Walsh, Grunwald too??
This is awesome. Of course in hindsight you could have produced mediocrity. Thats easy.
Tell me, who would you have taken in the draft? Problem a pro does not read draft express or Isola, they have actually make their own decision.
A lot of people wanted Mudiay or Winslow. They might still be very good pro's going forward mind you, but when your on the clock to make trades, shed players, change coach's you have limited info, and no benefit of hindsight.
Phil's record speaks for itself, but when you put your self back in the moment you can only then value trades based on what was available at the time.
BRIGGS wrote:crzymdups wrote:Briggs, I feel like you need to stop overreacting to each game at this point. This team is done for the year. Impossible to evaluate til next training camp.I look at the Bucks and see a plan. I look at the Knicks I see a disaster. Can you imagine us losing what the Bucks have lost? But youre right--the best thing is to lose every game--we need a no brainer.
Too many bad or sub par players come out of the lottery, and by the time they develop there on another team, Its such a long shot, its so damn depressing. The direction of the franchise is like a car doing doughnuts in a parking lot.
fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:Let me ask you a simple question. If it WAS a straight up rebuild what would you do differently?BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are badI agree. I'm not sure what Phil was thinking with his big deals over the summer. Was it rebuilding, was it giving melo one more shot with some veteran talent.
If so, he lost that gamble big time, possibly set the franchise back vs holding pat, building on what we had (Lopez, et al) and some of the nice small pieces he added (willy, Kuz, Randle).It's a fair question. I see a bunch of role players and then a hodge podge of players that probably aren't going to be here long term. We want to move Melo, don't know who/why would want Rose back.
What's left? KP and a rag tag group of players that might honestly not be in the NBA were they not contributing on our sinking ship.
Knicks brought in:
Willy (22)
Kuz (27)
NDour (24)
Plumlee (24)
Baker (23)Then when it was clear the season was shot we cut Jennings to look at Randle (23)
Knicks started the season with rookies on the roster and have added another. People assume rebuild means tank, and that you cant sign a player that fits a need. KOQ was not very good last year. Wily is a rookie. Noah is a system guy and ball mover and a high IQ player. You can see what Phil likes. Obviously it has not worked out as he's been a poor fit with our ball stoppers and he's been hurt... but I would love to know the expectation.
Briggs wants Seth Curry, but Seth is not a very good NBA player, and he's not as good as Lee. His agenda changes daily. Franco what would your offseason rebuild have looked like? The only young guy they gave up was Grant, who has been just as bad in Chi as he was in NY.
Just curious if you were running the team what would be different. Phil is clearly looking for guys that fit and that he can develop. 5 rookies and in a year where we didnt have a first rounder we have one of the best rookies in the NBA in Willy. That kid can really play.
I would have stayed the course - kept Calderon, Lopez, Grant, Langston. Willy, Kuz, Baker were great finds. Baker probably doesn't play if we have Langston.
I might have also taken Jennings.
Big difference is I would have fired Rambis and told Jeff to run whatever effing system he wanted.
Bucks don't have veteran stars on their team so their young players get full exposure to produce stats and be who they are. They have some good talent in Giannis, Parker (though injuries may derail his career) and Middleton. But they aren't even a playoff team despite these players right on the verge of their primes.
Knick have young talent like Porzingis, Hernangomez. They have some good pick ups like O'Quinn, Thomas, Randle and Baker who fit what they want to do as per system. The thing is so long as you have Melo and Rose, it's going to be hard to really see the young player's maximum potential. We saw some of that in the Magic game. We have young talent. Realize we also lost our lottery picks before Phil came to town. Lets go draft someone good in 2017 and lets trade Melo in the offseason for more young talent, and then compare with the Bucks next season. I'm willing to bet if we do that in a year we'll be happy where we are as a franchise vs other rebuilding teams.
franco12 wrote:what you suggest and what Phil did are not far about. Noah represents 1 year longer than Lopez and about $5mm more. Aside from that Randle and Baker replace Grant and Galloway got paid. Galloway was a nice hustle guy had and still has a ton of limitations.fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:Let me ask you a simple question. If it WAS a straight up rebuild what would you do differently?BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are badI agree. I'm not sure what Phil was thinking with his big deals over the summer. Was it rebuilding, was it giving melo one more shot with some veteran talent.
If so, he lost that gamble big time, possibly set the franchise back vs holding pat, building on what we had (Lopez, et al) and some of the nice small pieces he added (willy, Kuz, Randle).It's a fair question. I see a bunch of role players and then a hodge podge of players that probably aren't going to be here long term. We want to move Melo, don't know who/why would want Rose back.
What's left? KP and a rag tag group of players that might honestly not be in the NBA were they not contributing on our sinking ship.
Knicks brought in:
Willy (22)
Kuz (27)
NDour (24)
Plumlee (24)
Baker (23)Then when it was clear the season was shot we cut Jennings to look at Randle (23)
Knicks started the season with rookies on the roster and have added another. People assume rebuild means tank, and that you cant sign a player that fits a need. KOQ was not very good last year. Wily is a rookie. Noah is a system guy and ball mover and a high IQ player. You can see what Phil likes. Obviously it has not worked out as he's been a poor fit with our ball stoppers and he's been hurt... but I would love to know the expectation.
Briggs wants Seth Curry, but Seth is not a very good NBA player, and he's not as good as Lee. His agenda changes daily. Franco what would your offseason rebuild have looked like? The only young guy they gave up was Grant, who has been just as bad in Chi as he was in NY.
Just curious if you were running the team what would be different. Phil is clearly looking for guys that fit and that he can develop. 5 rookies and in a year where we didnt have a first rounder we have one of the best rookies in the NBA in Willy. That kid can really play.
I would have stayed the course - kept Calderon, Lopez, Grant, Langston. Willy, Kuz, Baker were great finds. Baker probably doesn't play if we have Langston.
I might have also taken Jennings.
Big difference is I would have fired Rambis and told Jeff to run whatever effing system he wanted.
When you say "stay the course" what is your goal? Why would you "stay the course" with a team that finished 12-30? Who left that team that you are really lamenting the loss of?
BRIGGS wrote:Lee is not an NBA starter. He's inconsistent and he'll be 32. Again we could've had Seth Curry for 4-5 mm or Lee for 13 not a brilliant choice by dr phil
Man, you may have a point but you take a lot away when you make up salary numbers. Lee is at $11M. Never in his contract will he make $13M
try here next time: http://www.basketball-reference.com/cont...
martin wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Lee is not an NBA starter. He's inconsistent and he'll be 32. Again we could've had Seth Curry for 4-5 mm or Lee for 13 not a brilliant choice by dr philMan, you may have a point but you take a lot away when you make up salary numbers. Lee is at $11M. Never in his contract will he make $13M
try here next time: http://www.basketball-reference.com/cont...
12mm avg or 13mm avg exactly what is the difference? 17 and 12mm are WAY WAY too much money spent on a mixed up plan and were stuck with it. TERRIBLE job Phil Jackson. No way was Phil trying to tank the season--he ll they wouldnt even play Randle yesterday 15-20 minutes after a good game--there more interested making D Rose more money from someone else.
BRIGGS wrote:we arent stuck with anything. You are just blowing smoke. Paying $18mm for Allan Crabbe would be stuck. We can move Lee in a heartbeat. Noah doesnt look like a good signing. High drama man.martin wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Lee is not an NBA starter. He's inconsistent and he'll be 32. Again we could've had Seth Curry for 4-5 mm or Lee for 13 not a brilliant choice by dr philMan, you may have a point but you take a lot away when you make up salary numbers. Lee is at $11M. Never in his contract will he make $13M
try here next time: http://www.basketball-reference.com/cont...
12mm avg or 13mm avg exactly what is the difference? 17 and 12mm are WAY WAY too much money spent on a mixed up plan and were stuck with it. TERRIBLE job Phil Jackson. No way was Phil trying to tank the season--he ll they wouldnt even play Randle yesterday 15-20 minutes after a good game--there more interested making D Rose more money from someone else.
i keep clicking briggs threads and i keep seeing the same shit. insanity, indeed.
fishmike wrote:BRIGGS wrote:we arent stuck with anything. You are just blowing smoke. Paying $18mm for Allan Crabbe would be stuck. We can move Lee in a heartbeat. Noah doesnt look like a good signing. High drama man.martin wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Lee is not an NBA starter. He's inconsistent and he'll be 32. Again we could've had Seth Curry for 4-5 mm or Lee for 13 not a brilliant choice by dr philMan, you may have a point but you take a lot away when you make up salary numbers. Lee is at $11M. Never in his contract will he make $13M
try here next time: http://www.basketball-reference.com/cont...
12mm avg or 13mm avg exactly what is the difference? 17 and 12mm are WAY WAY too much money spent on a mixed up plan and were stuck with it. TERRIBLE job Phil Jackson. No way was Phil trying to tank the season--he ll they wouldnt even play Randle yesterday 15-20 minutes after a good game--there more interested making D Rose more money from someone else.
At the time
Crabbe 23 Curry 25 Brogdon 23 Derrick Jones 19 Christian Wood 20 is a plan to get younger more athletic and to be able to spread the floor. Noah and Lee??? Older slower mediocre and expensive.
Crabbe is a top 5 NBA 3 point shooter???
fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:what you suggest and what Phil did are not far about. Noah represents 1 year longer than Lopez and about $5mm more. Aside from that Randle and Baker replace Grant and Galloway got paid. Galloway was a nice hustle guy had and still has a ton of limitations.fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:Let me ask you a simple question. If it WAS a straight up rebuild what would you do differently?BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are badI agree. I'm not sure what Phil was thinking with his big deals over the summer. Was it rebuilding, was it giving melo one more shot with some veteran talent.
If so, he lost that gamble big time, possibly set the franchise back vs holding pat, building on what we had (Lopez, et al) and some of the nice small pieces he added (willy, Kuz, Randle).It's a fair question. I see a bunch of role players and then a hodge podge of players that probably aren't going to be here long term. We want to move Melo, don't know who/why would want Rose back.
What's left? KP and a rag tag group of players that might honestly not be in the NBA were they not contributing on our sinking ship.
Knicks brought in:
Willy (22)
Kuz (27)
NDour (24)
Plumlee (24)
Baker (23)Then when it was clear the season was shot we cut Jennings to look at Randle (23)
Knicks started the season with rookies on the roster and have added another. People assume rebuild means tank, and that you cant sign a player that fits a need. KOQ was not very good last year. Wily is a rookie. Noah is a system guy and ball mover and a high IQ player. You can see what Phil likes. Obviously it has not worked out as he's been a poor fit with our ball stoppers and he's been hurt... but I would love to know the expectation.
Briggs wants Seth Curry, but Seth is not a very good NBA player, and he's not as good as Lee. His agenda changes daily. Franco what would your offseason rebuild have looked like? The only young guy they gave up was Grant, who has been just as bad in Chi as he was in NY.
Just curious if you were running the team what would be different. Phil is clearly looking for guys that fit and that he can develop. 5 rookies and in a year where we didnt have a first rounder we have one of the best rookies in the NBA in Willy. That kid can really play.
I would have stayed the course - kept Calderon, Lopez, Grant, Langston. Willy, Kuz, Baker were great finds. Baker probably doesn't play if we have Langston.
I might have also taken Jennings.
Big difference is I would have fired Rambis and told Jeff to run whatever effing system he wanted.
When you say "stay the course" what is your goal? Why would you "stay the course" with a team that finished 12-30? Who left that team that you are really lamenting the loss of?
No - Noah, Lee, Rose & Holiday are $50M this year vs. $27M for Lopez, Langston, Calderon & Grant.
I stay the course because I'm trying to build a cohesive team system based on the triangle - well, that is why Phil should have. What I've read, it takes players time in the system to actually grasp it. If we don't give our players time, what's the point?
How much of our roster gets turned over this summer, we're we can agree that it's basically been turned over every year Phil's been here?
He changes rosters like Briggs changes his mind!
I get that this franchise has suffered, trading first round picks and giving out contracts to marginal talent.
Phil has really only corrected 1. Noah was a gamble that was never going to pay off. Older player, injured. Wrong side of 30. 4 years!
Remember when Phoenix let Amare walk? They were smart. I want our franchise to be smart.
If Phil were 10 years younger, it might make sense. But what does he have left in the tank?
Who has he groomed to take over for him?
Pretty soon, they're going to take Rings off his fingers for any more losing seasons/bad deals, etc.
BRIGGS wrote:fishmike wrote:BRIGGS wrote:we arent stuck with anything. You are just blowing smoke. Paying $18mm for Allan Crabbe would be stuck. We can move Lee in a heartbeat. Noah doesnt look like a good signing. High drama man.martin wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Lee is not an NBA starter. He's inconsistent and he'll be 32. Again we could've had Seth Curry for 4-5 mm or Lee for 13 not a brilliant choice by dr philMan, you may have a point but you take a lot away when you make up salary numbers. Lee is at $11M. Never in his contract will he make $13M
try here next time: http://www.basketball-reference.com/cont...
12mm avg or 13mm avg exactly what is the difference? 17 and 12mm are WAY WAY too much money spent on a mixed up plan and were stuck with it. TERRIBLE job Phil Jackson. No way was Phil trying to tank the season--he ll they wouldnt even play Randle yesterday 15-20 minutes after a good game--there more interested making D Rose more money from someone else.
At the time
Crabbe 23 Curry 25 Brogdon 23 Derrick Jones 19 Christian Wood 20 is a plan to get younger more athletic and to be able to spread the floor. Noah and Lee??? Older slower mediocre and expensive.Crabbe is a top 5 NBA 3 point shooter???
Brooke Lopez is shooting more 3s per game than Crabbe. I haven't watched him play, but he sure seems like Hubert Davis 2.0
nyknickzingis wrote:Knicks have a plan to build, it's just not as obvious because they are hidden in the shadow of by an all-star scoring wing and a former MVP point guard.Bucks don't have veteran stars on their team so their young players get full exposure to produce stats and be who they are. They have some good talent in Giannis, Parker (though injuries may derail his career) and Middleton. But they aren't even a playoff team despite these players right on the verge of their primes.
Knick have young talent like Porzingis, Hernangomez. They have some good pick ups like O'Quinn, Thomas, Randle and Baker who fit what they want to do as per system. The thing is so long as you have Melo and Rose, it's going to be hard to really see the young player's maximum potential. We saw some of that in the Magic game. We have young talent. Realize we also lost our lottery picks before Phil came to town. Lets go draft someone good in 2017 and lets trade Melo in the offseason for more young talent, and then compare with the Bucks next season. I'm willing to bet if we do that in a year we'll be happy where we are as a franchise vs other rebuilding teams.
These dudes are crazy inconsistent like every role player in the league, there a dime a dozen except for KP..
Willy and Kp starting is not a good look, they are not Athletic enough, quick enough, or smart enough. I don't see the Bucks GM/prez telling Kidd what system to run either
BRIGGS wrote:Lee is anything but slow. Crabbe sucks and you were good paying him ludicrous money just because he's young. You are crying about being old... Knicks started the season with 5 rookies on the roster, granted Kuz is 27. When the season went south the dump Jennings to look at Randle. Seth Curry is 26 years old. By your math he and Lee are practically the same age and Lee is better. Knicks have continuously looked at young players, used the D league, used their 2nd rounders, brought in and looked at undrafted players and all you see is Lee and Noah? Thats blowing smoke. There are no players we are missing out on because of Lee and Noah's salary, except the guys you always remind us we have no chance of signing.fishmike wrote:BRIGGS wrote:we arent stuck with anything. You are just blowing smoke. Paying $18mm for Allan Crabbe would be stuck. We can move Lee in a heartbeat. Noah doesnt look like a good signing. High drama man.martin wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Lee is not an NBA starter. He's inconsistent and he'll be 32. Again we could've had Seth Curry for 4-5 mm or Lee for 13 not a brilliant choice by dr philMan, you may have a point but you take a lot away when you make up salary numbers. Lee is at $11M. Never in his contract will he make $13M
try here next time: http://www.basketball-reference.com/cont...
12mm avg or 13mm avg exactly what is the difference? 17 and 12mm are WAY WAY too much money spent on a mixed up plan and were stuck with it. TERRIBLE job Phil Jackson. No way was Phil trying to tank the season--he ll they wouldnt even play Randle yesterday 15-20 minutes after a good game--there more interested making D Rose more money from someone else.
At the time
Crabbe 23 Curry 25 Brogdon 23 Derrick Jones 19 Christian Wood 20 is a plan to get younger more athletic and to be able to spread the floor. Noah and Lee??? Older slower mediocre and expensive.Crabbe is a top 5 NBA 3 point shooter???
franco12 wrote:your bold doesnt answer my question at all. If you goal is to a cohesive team which player did you want to keep? Jose? Grant? Lopez? What are their value in the goal you have stated? Jose wouldnt shoot, Grant couldnt and when Lopez was playing his best ball Knicks went 12-30. There isnt much evidence that points to staying the course accomplishing anything besides more mediocrity.fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:what you suggest and what Phil did are not far about. Noah represents 1 year longer than Lopez and about $5mm more. Aside from that Randle and Baker replace Grant and Galloway got paid. Galloway was a nice hustle guy had and still has a ton of limitations.fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:Let me ask you a simple question. If it WAS a straight up rebuild what would you do differently?BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are badI agree. I'm not sure what Phil was thinking with his big deals over the summer. Was it rebuilding, was it giving melo one more shot with some veteran talent.
If so, he lost that gamble big time, possibly set the franchise back vs holding pat, building on what we had (Lopez, et al) and some of the nice small pieces he added (willy, Kuz, Randle).It's a fair question. I see a bunch of role players and then a hodge podge of players that probably aren't going to be here long term. We want to move Melo, don't know who/why would want Rose back.
What's left? KP and a rag tag group of players that might honestly not be in the NBA were they not contributing on our sinking ship.
Knicks brought in:
Willy (22)
Kuz (27)
NDour (24)
Plumlee (24)
Baker (23)Then when it was clear the season was shot we cut Jennings to look at Randle (23)
Knicks started the season with rookies on the roster and have added another. People assume rebuild means tank, and that you cant sign a player that fits a need. KOQ was not very good last year. Wily is a rookie. Noah is a system guy and ball mover and a high IQ player. You can see what Phil likes. Obviously it has not worked out as he's been a poor fit with our ball stoppers and he's been hurt... but I would love to know the expectation.
Briggs wants Seth Curry, but Seth is not a very good NBA player, and he's not as good as Lee. His agenda changes daily. Franco what would your offseason rebuild have looked like? The only young guy they gave up was Grant, who has been just as bad in Chi as he was in NY.
Just curious if you were running the team what would be different. Phil is clearly looking for guys that fit and that he can develop. 5 rookies and in a year where we didnt have a first rounder we have one of the best rookies in the NBA in Willy. That kid can really play.
I would have stayed the course - kept Calderon, Lopez, Grant, Langston. Willy, Kuz, Baker were great finds. Baker probably doesn't play if we have Langston.
I might have also taken Jennings.
Big difference is I would have fired Rambis and told Jeff to run whatever effing system he wanted.
When you say "stay the course" what is your goal? Why would you "stay the course" with a team that finished 12-30? Who left that team that you are really lamenting the loss of?
I stay the course because I'm trying to build a cohesive team system based on the triangle - well, that is why Phil should have. What I've read, it takes players time in the system to actually grasp it. If we don't give our players time, what's the point?
How much of our roster gets turned over this summer, we're we can agree that it's basically been turned over every year Phil's been here?
He changes rosters like Briggs changes his mind!
I get that this franchise has suffered, trading first round picks and giving out contracts to marginal talent.
Phil has really only corrected 1. Noah was a gamble that was never going to pay off. Older player, injured. Wrong side of 30. 4 years!
Remember when Phoenix let Amare walk? They were smart. I want our franchise to be smart.
If Phil were 10 years younger, it might make sense. But what does he have left in the tank?
Who has he groomed to take over for him?
Pretty soon, they're going to take Rings off his fingers for any more losing seasons/bad deals, etc.
No - Noah, Lee, Rose & Holiday are $50M this year vs. $27M for Lopez, Langston, Calderon & Grant.If anything those guys bring us closer to your goal. Noah has not been healthy, but Lee is exactly the kind of guy you want around for a few years if building triangle continuity is your goal. He's a great shooter, he defends, moves the ball and plays hard. He's very good and a nice rotation player for the next few years. If Noah can get a little healthy he's exactly the guy you want Willy/KP to play with. His intangibles exceed Lopez. Noah has plenty to prove before that is anything but a bad signing, I certainly admit that. However I can see the fit.
Who cares about the money? They are better players and who are the FAs they are stopping us from signing? Knicks dont have cap problems.
knicks1248 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Knicks have a plan to build, it's just not as obvious because they are hidden in the shadow of by an all-star scoring wing and a former MVP point guard.Bucks don't have veteran stars on their team so their young players get full exposure to produce stats and be who they are. They have some good talent in Giannis, Parker (though injuries may derail his career) and Middleton. But they aren't even a playoff team despite these players right on the verge of their primes.
Knick have young talent like Porzingis, Hernangomez. They have some good pick ups like O'Quinn, Thomas, Randle and Baker who fit what they want to do as per system. The thing is so long as you have Melo and Rose, it's going to be hard to really see the young player's maximum potential. We saw some of that in the Magic game. We have young talent. Realize we also lost our lottery picks before Phil came to town. Lets go draft someone good in 2017 and lets trade Melo in the offseason for more young talent, and then compare with the Bucks next season. I'm willing to bet if we do that in a year we'll be happy where we are as a franchise vs other rebuilding teams.
These dudes are crazy inconsistent like every role player in the league, there a dime a dozen except for KP..
Willy and Kp starting is not a good look, they are not Athletic enough, quick enough, or smart enough. I don't see the Bucks GM/prez telling Kidd what system to run either
They have developing chemistry, and i think they are smart enough. They are just young. They can easily co-exist together, but we need to get more athletic at other positions. We are slow at every position. Getting more athletic at SF, SG, and PG will make all the difference.
knicks1248 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Knicks have a plan to build, it's just not as obvious because they are hidden in the shadow of by an all-star scoring wing and a former MVP point guard.Bucks don't have veteran stars on their team so their young players get full exposure to produce stats and be who they are. They have some good talent in Giannis, Parker (though injuries may derail his career) and Middleton. But they aren't even a playoff team despite these players right on the verge of their primes.
Knick have young talent like Porzingis, Hernangomez. They have some good pick ups like O'Quinn, Thomas, Randle and Baker who fit what they want to do as per system. The thing is so long as you have Melo and Rose, it's going to be hard to really see the young player's maximum potential. We saw some of that in the Magic game. We have young talent. Realize we also lost our lottery picks before Phil came to town. Lets go draft someone good in 2017 and lets trade Melo in the offseason for more young talent, and then compare with the Bucks next season. I'm willing to bet if we do that in a year we'll be happy where we are as a franchise vs other rebuilding teams.
These dudes are crazy inconsistent like every role player in the league, there a dime a dozen except for KP..
Willy and Kp starting is not a good look, they are not Athletic enough, quick enough, or smart enough. I don't see the Bucks GM/prez telling Kidd what system to run either
Guys that have shown they can understand the Triangle are not a dime a dozen. We need MORE young players that are smart and team oriented. We're not losing because of our role players!!! We lose because we don't have the STAR players to lead the team to wins. KP is still developing but Melo and Rose simply aren't able to carry the team to wins like other top players on winning teams do. ie. they are not DeRozan and Lowry, Lebron and Kyrie...
The path forward is to continue to develop our young players and add STUDS from the Draft to eventually become the new core of this team. KP and Willy is a good start. I find it funny how people are so convinced that KP and Willy won't work when Willy is a damned ROOKIE and KP hasn't even come close to being developed yet. I marvel at the inability of many Knicks fans to know what the process of development of young talent looks like. There's simply ZERO patience with many in this fan base.
franco12 wrote:fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:what you suggest and what Phil did are not far about. Noah represents 1 year longer than Lopez and about $5mm more. Aside from that Randle and Baker replace Grant and Galloway got paid. Galloway was a nice hustle guy had and still has a ton of limitations.fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:Let me ask you a simple question. If it WAS a straight up rebuild what would you do differently?BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are badI agree. I'm not sure what Phil was thinking with his big deals over the summer. Was it rebuilding, was it giving melo one more shot with some veteran talent.
If so, he lost that gamble big time, possibly set the franchise back vs holding pat, building on what we had (Lopez, et al) and some of the nice small pieces he added (willy, Kuz, Randle).It's a fair question. I see a bunch of role players and then a hodge podge of players that probably aren't going to be here long term. We want to move Melo, don't know who/why would want Rose back.
What's left? KP and a rag tag group of players that might honestly not be in the NBA were they not contributing on our sinking ship.
Knicks brought in:
Willy (22)
Kuz (27)
NDour (24)
Plumlee (24)
Baker (23)Then when it was clear the season was shot we cut Jennings to look at Randle (23)
Knicks started the season with rookies on the roster and have added another. People assume rebuild means tank, and that you cant sign a player that fits a need. KOQ was not very good last year. Wily is a rookie. Noah is a system guy and ball mover and a high IQ player. You can see what Phil likes. Obviously it has not worked out as he's been a poor fit with our ball stoppers and he's been hurt... but I would love to know the expectation.
Briggs wants Seth Curry, but Seth is not a very good NBA player, and he's not as good as Lee. His agenda changes daily. Franco what would your offseason rebuild have looked like? The only young guy they gave up was Grant, who has been just as bad in Chi as he was in NY.
Just curious if you were running the team what would be different. Phil is clearly looking for guys that fit and that he can develop. 5 rookies and in a year where we didnt have a first rounder we have one of the best rookies in the NBA in Willy. That kid can really play.
I would have stayed the course - kept Calderon, Lopez, Grant, Langston. Willy, Kuz, Baker were great finds. Baker probably doesn't play if we have Langston.
I might have also taken Jennings.
Big difference is I would have fired Rambis and told Jeff to run whatever effing system he wanted.
When you say "stay the course" what is your goal? Why would you "stay the course" with a team that finished 12-30? Who left that team that you are really lamenting the loss of?
No - Noah, Lee, Rose & Holiday are $50M this year vs. $27M for Lopez, Langston, Calderon & Grant.
I stay the course because I'm trying to build a cohesive team system based on the triangle - well, that is why Phil should have. What I've read, it takes players time in the system to actually grasp it. If we don't give our players time, what's the point?
How much of our roster gets turned over this summer, we're we can agree that it's basically been turned over every year Phil's been here?
He changes rosters like Briggs changes his mind!
I get that this franchise has suffered, trading first round picks and giving out contracts to marginal talent.
Phil has really only corrected 1. Noah was a gamble that was never going to pay off. Older player, injured. Wrong side of 30. 4 years!
Remember when Phoenix let Amare walk? They were smart. I want our franchise to be smart.
If Phil were 10 years younger, it might make sense. But what does he have left in the tank?
Who has he groomed to take over for him?
Pretty soon, they're going to take Rings off his fingers for any more losing seasons/bad deals, etc.
Mills is the successor. Triangle might not be. Mills is very capable.
Why was phil hired? A successful person has transferable traits.
Has he made mistakes? Yes. Does he learn from them? Is he too old? Is he old for his age, or still vibrant mind?
He is 71. A year older than Trump. Red auerbach was day to Day GM until he was 86. Hubie brown still good in his 80's.......
Can't pull the old man card. People age at different rates. Maybe he is cooked, but not cuz he is 71.
I don't know why he has tried to do a hybrid with Melo, Rose and Noah while trying to install the triangle. I do wish he'd do one or the other.
fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:your bold doesnt answer my question at all. If you goal is to a cohesive team which player did you want to keep? Jose? Grant? Lopez? What are their value in the goal you have stated? Jose wouldnt shoot, Grant couldnt and when Lopez was playing his best ball Knicks went 12-30. There isnt much evidence that points to staying the course accomplishing anything besides more mediocrity.fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:what you suggest and what Phil did are not far about. Noah represents 1 year longer than Lopez and about $5mm more. Aside from that Randle and Baker replace Grant and Galloway got paid. Galloway was a nice hustle guy had and still has a ton of limitations.fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:Let me ask you a simple question. If it WAS a straight up rebuild what would you do differently?BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are badI agree. I'm not sure what Phil was thinking with his big deals over the summer. Was it rebuilding, was it giving melo one more shot with some veteran talent.
If so, he lost that gamble big time, possibly set the franchise back vs holding pat, building on what we had (Lopez, et al) and some of the nice small pieces he added (willy, Kuz, Randle).It's a fair question. I see a bunch of role players and then a hodge podge of players that probably aren't going to be here long term. We want to move Melo, don't know who/why would want Rose back.
What's left? KP and a rag tag group of players that might honestly not be in the NBA were they not contributing on our sinking ship.
Knicks brought in:
Willy (22)
Kuz (27)
NDour (24)
Plumlee (24)
Baker (23)Then when it was clear the season was shot we cut Jennings to look at Randle (23)
Knicks started the season with rookies on the roster and have added another. People assume rebuild means tank, and that you cant sign a player that fits a need. KOQ was not very good last year. Wily is a rookie. Noah is a system guy and ball mover and a high IQ player. You can see what Phil likes. Obviously it has not worked out as he's been a poor fit with our ball stoppers and he's been hurt... but I would love to know the expectation.
Briggs wants Seth Curry, but Seth is not a very good NBA player, and he's not as good as Lee. His agenda changes daily. Franco what would your offseason rebuild have looked like? The only young guy they gave up was Grant, who has been just as bad in Chi as he was in NY.
Just curious if you were running the team what would be different. Phil is clearly looking for guys that fit and that he can develop. 5 rookies and in a year where we didnt have a first rounder we have one of the best rookies in the NBA in Willy. That kid can really play.
I would have stayed the course - kept Calderon, Lopez, Grant, Langston. Willy, Kuz, Baker were great finds. Baker probably doesn't play if we have Langston.
I might have also taken Jennings.
Big difference is I would have fired Rambis and told Jeff to run whatever effing system he wanted.
When you say "stay the course" what is your goal? Why would you "stay the course" with a team that finished 12-30? Who left that team that you are really lamenting the loss of?
I stay the course because I'm trying to build a cohesive team system based on the triangle - well, that is why Phil should have. What I've read, it takes players time in the system to actually grasp it. If we don't give our players time, what's the point?
How much of our roster gets turned over this summer, we're we can agree that it's basically been turned over every year Phil's been here?
He changes rosters like Briggs changes his mind!
I get that this franchise has suffered, trading first round picks and giving out contracts to marginal talent.
Phil has really only corrected 1. Noah was a gamble that was never going to pay off. Older player, injured. Wrong side of 30. 4 years!
Remember when Phoenix let Amare walk? They were smart. I want our franchise to be smart.
If Phil were 10 years younger, it might make sense. But what does he have left in the tank?
Who has he groomed to take over for him?
Pretty soon, they're going to take Rings off his fingers for any more losing seasons/bad deals, etc.
No - Noah, Lee, Rose & Holiday are $50M this year vs. $27M for Lopez, Langston, Calderon & Grant.If anything those guys bring us closer to your goal. Noah has not been healthy, but Lee is exactly the kind of guy you want around for a few years if building triangle continuity is your goal. He's a great shooter, he defends, moves the ball and plays hard. He's very good and a nice rotation player for the next few years. If Noah can get a little healthy he's exactly the guy you want Willy/KP to play with. His intangibles exceed Lopez. Noah has plenty to prove before that is anything but a bad signing, I certainly admit that. However I can see the fit.Who cares about the money? They are better players and who are the FAs they are stopping us from signing? Knicks dont have cap problems.
I keep all of them. Maybe Jose gets released, traded- I liked him last year.
I don't keep him past this season.
I look to develop Grant. Maybe my fault would be not knowing when it was time to cut bait with players. But I want to add, tweak grow. Not slash and burn.
Maybe both are valid ways of looking at what we need to do.
knicks1248 wrote:BRIGGS wrote:crzymdups wrote:Briggs, I feel like you need to stop overreacting to each game at this point. This team is done for the year. Impossible to evaluate til next training camp.I look at the Bucks and see a plan. I look at the Knicks I see a disaster. Can you imagine us losing what the Bucks have lost? But youre right--the best thing is to lose every game--we need a no brainer.
Too many bad or sub par players come out of the lottery, and by the time they develop there on another team, Its such a long shot, its so damn depressing. The direction of the franchise is like a car doing doughnuts in a parking lot.
Until this team has its SECOND draft with an actual 1st rd pick there's no way to truly know what the team can be. All we do know is your chances of success in the draft improve with a higher pick. However good players can be found anywhere in the draft and yes it's an iffy process but aside from the draft there's not a lot of options to put together a young core for the team's future.