Knicks · New Orleans is 2-6 since trading for Boogie (page 1)

Can you have two ball dominant bigs who are slow on D playing together in the modern era? It doesn't seem like it.

It's about guard play now. I hope Phil is watching.

crzymdups wrote:Myself and some others here were saying that trade made very little basketball sense.

Can you have two ball dominant bigs who are slow on D playing together in the modern era? It doesn't seem like it.

It's about guard play now. I hope Phil is watching.

I wonder if this experience put Holiday off re-signing with them. The trade could turn into an absolute disaster for them if they end up losing Holiday. Could still work out well for them if they end up with a top 3 pick (they get to keep it if its top 3)

crzymdups wrote:Myself and some others here were saying that trade made very little basketball sense.

Can you have two ball dominant bigs who are slow on D playing together in the modern era? It doesn't seem like it.

It's about guard play now. I hope Phil is watching.

I disagree about both being slow on D. Davis is a very good quick twitch athlete that can guard 4 positions. Part of the reason it doesn't work is because the roster is so flawed. The smartest thing for them to do is to tank and try to get a top 4 pick since they need roster help and are low on space.

I do think that the two big model is very difficult in this new era. Just look at what Nurkic is doing in Portland. He is on a streak right now that has him looking like one of the best young bigs in the league. Yet when he was playing with Jokic he looked like a bum. Now Nurkic sample size is too small right now but if it keeps going in this direction it is another example of why two bigs may not work.

I hope the Knicks eventually just let KP and Willy run their own units and be the focal point when their in the game. The problem might occur if Willy continues to be the better rebounder, passer, and efficient scorer which could keep him in the starting line up. I think it would be better for him to be the big man version of Manu or Harden(Okc). Basically, just make him the new age Mchale.

crzymdups wrote:Myself and some others here were saying that trade made very little basketball sense.

Can you have two ball dominant bigs who are slow on D playing together in the modern era? It doesn't seem like it.

It's about guard play now. I hope Phil is watching.

Is that how it works? Give it 8 games then label it?

If Phil is not watching, its good he has you to help him. Seems like Drose would be a natural for that team.
That should keep them going as the new dysfunction.

yellowboy90 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Myself and some others here were saying that trade made very little basketball sense.

Can you have two ball dominant bigs who are slow on D playing together in the modern era? It doesn't seem like it.

It's about guard play now. I hope Phil is watching.

I disagree about both being slow on D. Davis is a very good quick twitch athlete that can guard 4 positions. Part of the reason it doesn't work is because the roster is so flawed. The smartest thing for them to do is to tank and try to get a top 4 pick since they need roster help and are low on space.

I do think that the two big model is very difficult in this new era. Just look at what Nurkic is doing in Portland. He is on a streak right now that has him looking like one of the best young bigs in the league. Yet when he was playing with Jokic he looked like a bum. Now Nurkic sample size is too small right now but if it keeps going in this direction it is another example of why two bigs may not work.

I hope the Knicks eventually just let KP and Willy run their own units and be the focal point when their in the game. The problem might occur if Willy continues to be the better rebounder, passer, and efficient scorer which could keep him in the starting line up. I think it would be better for him to be the big man version of Manu or Harden(Okc). Basically, just make him the new age Mchale.

Nurkic wasn't playing anymore in favor of Jokic. Both of those guys are slow footed and more back to the basket... boogie and Davis are quick and agile plus they can face up.

KP isn't a post guy. He had to learn post moves. Right now he's a poor man's Dirk. There's room to have a post big inside. Problem there is you can't have your small fwd taking up space on the block looking for post ups every time down.

crzymdups wrote:Myself and some others here were saying that trade made very little basketball sense.

Can you have two ball dominant bigs who are slow on D playing together in the modern era? It doesn't seem like it.

It's about guard play now. I hope Phil is watching.

After the blow it up/tank first year. He signed RoLo, to pair with KP. RoLo is a 10 points a night guy, and KP was the perimeter guy. Pretty nice chemistry they had. The problem is when you add a player like Melo who is best at 4, it doesn't work defensively or spacing wise because Melo likes to play mid-range and in. If we got a young athletic 3 who was good at shooting from outside, that was a nice frontcourt there.

After trading RoLo, we passed on signing Dwight Howard who wanted to come and went for Noah who is not at all a scorer. He's a screen setter, passer, rebound guy. He won't get in the way, but has seemingly lost his rhythm to play basketball at a high level with all the injuries the last 2 years. Talent or on paper wise, Noah was a good teammate for KP. Again, I think if healthy, Noah/KP complement each other well, assuming the starting 3 is good defensively and can shoot from outside. Noah may never be healthy again, though.

If this is about Willy, well I think they took Willy because of how much talent he has. He's such a good scorer, he has a great nack for just getting the ball and scoring. I don't think they are relying on Willy to be the starting 5 longterm, as they had signed Noah to be that.

We traded for DRose. Essentially we built the team around DRose, Melo and KP as a 3rd option. Total contrast from New Orleans.

I said the same as you about Cousins/Davis. Davis in particular is better at 5. He is much like KP, a better player by far, but similar in that they are still not sure what position he should play at. But all the advanced stats for their lineups show Davis should play 5. Yet they go out and trade for Cousins? Doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

A team that did pretty well with 2 high usage bigs in recent years was/is Memphis. They had great defensive talent and defensive ability. That's not going to happen with New Orleans.

That may lead to some successes if done selectively but not how you win big. We for example will never be able to do what GS does better than they do. Or do what lebron does etc

The idea of going big has appeal because it at least promises better interior defense and hopefully many extra possessions from better rebounding. Both of those are laudable.

Personally not a boogie fan and if I were running NOP I would have considered someone obsessesd w defense and rebounding and less interested in chucking 3s, getting technicals, and otherwise being team cancer

Even though Davis and Cuzo can shoot perimeter shoots, that don't make them perimeter defenders that are able to recover off screens and picks. We have the same problem here, our bigs get sucked into the paint, can't keep up when the pace quickens for long stretches.

It's like what Isaiah said when ask later on what the hell he was thinking putting Zach and curry together, his dumb ass response, THE REST OF THE LEAGUE WAS GOING SMALL, AND I WANTED TO COUNTER THAT.

None of the top teams have dominate Centers, were going against the grain just like the pelicans

knicks1248 wrote:This a perimeter oriented league. Look at the top 6 teams in the league, perimeter fast 3 point shooting teams. Your not winning with 2 big man in your starting line up, not in this day and age. That sht is 90's is not even funny.

Even though Davis and Cuzo can shoot perimeter shoots, that don't make them perimeter defenders that are able to recover off screens and picks. We have the same problem here, our bigs get sucked into the paint, can't keep up when the pace quickens for long stretches.

It's like what Isaiah said when ask later on what the hell he was thinking putting Zach and curry together, his dumb ass response, THE REST OF THE LEAGUE WAS GOING SMALL, AND I WANTED TO COUNTER THAT.

None of the top teams have dominate Centers, were going against the grain just like the pelicans

So you're proposing to small and somehow we'll do that better than GS?

Copying is not how you win big

Chandler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:This a perimeter oriented league. Look at the top 6 teams in the league, perimeter fast 3 point shooting teams. Your not winning with 2 big man in your starting line up, not in this day and age. That sht is 90's is not even funny.

Even though Davis and Cuzo can shoot perimeter shoots, that don't make them perimeter defenders that are able to recover off screens and picks. We have the same problem here, our bigs get sucked into the paint, can't keep up when the pace quickens for long stretches.

It's like what Isaiah said when ask later on what the hell he was thinking putting Zach and curry together, his dumb ass response, THE REST OF THE LEAGUE WAS GOING SMALL, AND I WANTED TO COUNTER THAT.

None of the top teams have dominate Centers, were going against the grain just like the pelicans

So you're proposing to small and somehow we'll do that better than GS?

Copying is not how you win big

We know basketball is about match ups, Big guys can't guard smaller players, and don't come out consistently of fear of getting beat off the dribble, their instincts are to protect the paint on fast breaks, but fast breaks are ending with 3's more than layups these days.

The sagging in the paint, switching on defense. I agree with Doris Park the other day when she said the league is becoming position less basketball. Lance Thomas, Green, Melo are the type PF's you need to have.

Not slow big men who are more effective in a half court, but are venerable to the switch d.

Imagine a Tatum or Bridges type instead of Melo and it makes more sense.

Nalod wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Myself and some others here were saying that trade made very little basketball sense.

Can you have two ball dominant bigs who are slow on D playing together in the modern era? It doesn't seem like it.

It's about guard play now. I hope Phil is watching.

Is that how it works? Give it 8 games then label it?

If Phil is not watching, its good he has you to help him. Seems like Drose would be a natural for that team.
That should keep them going as the new dysfunction.

Have you watched New Orleans play since their trade or are you just talking again?

knicks1248 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:This a perimeter oriented league. Look at the top 6 teams in the league, perimeter fast 3 point shooting teams. Your not winning with 2 big man in your starting line up, not in this day and age. That sht is 90's is not even funny.

Even though Davis and Cuzo can shoot perimeter shoots, that don't make them perimeter defenders that are able to recover off screens and picks. We have the same problem here, our bigs get sucked into the paint, can't keep up when the pace quickens for long stretches.

It's like what Isaiah said when ask later on what the hell he was thinking putting Zach and curry together, his dumb ass response, THE REST OF THE LEAGUE WAS GOING SMALL, AND I WANTED TO COUNTER THAT.

None of the top teams have dominate Centers, were going against the grain just like the pelicans

So you're proposing to small and somehow we'll do that better than GS?

Copying is not how you win big

We know basketball is about match ups, Big guys can't guard smaller players, and don't come out consistently of fear of getting beat off the dribble, their instincts are to protect the paint on fast breaks, but fast breaks are ending with 3's more than layups these days.

The sagging in the paint, switching on defense. I agree with Doris Park the other day when she said the league is becoming position less basketball. Lance Thomas, Green, Melo are the type PF's you need to have.

Not slow big men who are more effective in a half court, but are venerable to the switch d.

a 40% 3 point shooter averages 1.2 points per attempt

A center or pf in the low post can get close to that eg 60% when shooting down low. On top of that they can draw fouls which are tons more efficient than 3 pointers (unless you have someone like Noah or Drummond shooting)

On top of that, more size as a general matter yields more possessions and that's more important that a couple of points better in shooting percentage.

You also need to consider that 3 point shots yield long rebounds when missed. And while surprisingly the offensive team is more likely to get a long rebound than a short one, unsurprising the defensive team still gets way more of the long rebounds than the short ones. As a result those misses can yield quick transition fast break opportunities on the other end. Now if all of your shooters are like Curry, KD, Klay hitting those at a high clip that may slightly change things but issue remains

In short, saying this is what others are doing, so we should do it is not necessarily wise.

EnySpree wrote:Btw.... Nurkic had a 28pts, 20 rebounds, 8 assists and 6 blocks.... I wish i saw that game! What a line! Against Philly but what the fuck

Before he was traded I asked this board why his playing time had evaporated and said I thought he got a lot of praise in his rookie year, and was told that he was slow and a bad player! I will never trust any of you ever again!

Bonn1997 wrote:Cousins is good but overrated. He excels in the kind of stats that GMs cared more about 10 to 20 years ago (and he has a lot of baggage). If NOP gives him a $40 mil per year contract, I think it will cripple them.

Pelicans I think have one of the smallest revenues of any team in the nba- if they max out Holiday, and Davis, and Cousins, they are in trouble financially as they are also carrying $25mil a year in dead weight (Asik, Solomon Hill, Ajinca), plus $8mil for Moore, plus they still have to re-stock the team with shooters.

I think likely, once they realize it's not working next season, they will trade Cousins and get slightly more than what the Kings got. Maybe to the Lakers, or a team with good leadership.

Everyone says Cousins is some sort of monster, but they can never really give any concrete examples of terrible things he's done. On a team with good leadership and vets, i think he'll do much better.

EnySpree wrote:Btw.... Nurkic had a 28pts, 20 rebounds, 8 assists and 6 blocks.... I wish i saw that game! What a line! Against Philly but what the fuck

CrushAlot wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Btw.... Nurkic had a 28pts, 20 rebounds, 8 assists and 6 blocks.... I wish i saw that game! What a line! Against Philly but what the fuck

wow. Did they just trade a ppick for him?

The Blazers GOT a first round pick in the deal. They gave up Mason Plumlee and a second rounder for Nurkic and a 2017 first round pick. (It's somehow Memphis's pick, which Denver got from Cleveland for Mozgov)