Knicks · trade Porzingis for future picks (page 4)

meloshouldgo wrote:

This thread = HeiHei: The sky is falling

No it's not.

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

This thread = HeiHei: The sky is falling

No it's not.

Go Peck Rocks

This team so rarely even has a top pick that was good enough to be runner up for ROY that I see no point to even consider the notion of trading that 21 yr old player. We have no idea what we'd be getting back and what KP will ultimately become. I'd rather roll the dice with KP and who we end up drafting from here on.

KP is a keeper but the team needs to be built around him now. The malcontents need to be shown the exit door ASAP!

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:KP is a keeper but the team needs to be built around him now. The malcontents need to be shown the exit door ASAP!

This ^^^.

KP is the franchise cornerstone for the next decade. Suggesting anything else is more of the usual pattern of tilting at windmills. We're not doing that anymore. We have an established quantity in KP with unbelievable upside. Time to build AROUND him, not entertain the notion of using his value to trade into the unknown.

Un-friggin-believable! Only in NY, only Knicks fans. Sheesh. SMDH.

We have two potential cornerstones. We just need someone that can effectively use both of them for 35 minutes.

Look at what Billy is doing.

March
11.3pts 10rbs 2ass 22mins

Feb
10.7 9.5rbs 2ass 25minutes

KP is 21
18pts 7.5rbs and 2blks

Let's also take into account we don't have a point guard and aren't effectively maximizing them both.

In this coming draft, we need a starting PG and a long defensive minded SF that is 6'9" or taller. Only resign Rose if it is for a reasonable contract. Melo..I can go with him either way. Just pick a path and lets roll.

NYKBocker wrote:In this coming draft, we need a starting PG and a long defensive minded SF that is 6'9" or taller. Only resign Rose if it is for a reasonable contract. Melo..I can go with him either way. Just pick a path and lets roll.

well... you have Tatum/Josh Jackson along with at least 4-5 star guard prospects

Moonangie wrote:KP is the franchise cornerstone for the next decade. Suggesting anything else is more of the usual pattern of tilting at windmills. We're not doing that anymore. We have an established quantity in KP with unbelievable upside. Time to build AROUND him, not entertain the notion of using his value to trade into the unknown.

Interesting discussions by Billy Beane and Bill Belichick over the years, sometimes they actually give thoughtful and candid answers instead of canned responses.

One thing both have discussed, and it's a problem even the Yankees have faced is there is always internal pressure in a franchise to make a good "marketing" decision and there is internal pressure to make a good "winning" decision. In a perfect world, those the same thing, but in many cases, it is not.

Something in Michael Lewis's MoneyBall, that was pretty interesting, is one consideration in trading for David Justice from the Yankees, the A's had to factor in his ability to weather a whole season, but also his ability to help generate fan interest and ticket sales. This was also a factor when the A's traded Jose Canseco away to Texas, but resigned Ruben Sierra ( Yes, him, of the infamous "All those Yankees want to do is win" quote) to a long term deal to, in part, justify trading away Canseco.

In many ways, the Knicks are in a close situation to the Lakers, when Kobe Bryant was essentially holding the team hostage as a selfish aging player on a big cap killing deal and there was marketing concern about having a player to "anchor" a network and broadcasted games.

Without Zinger, Melo would probably not be discussed in trades. However if Melo just is going to rot here for two years, and he will make life hell for Zinger and Zinger will never get the ball, I'm not sure it's going to be a functional situation for Zinger to stay. The Knicks literally cannot make Melo go away. They can bench him, maybe suspend him, but not make him go away if he chooses to stay. If he poisons the locker room enough and stilts Zingers development enough, I don't see Zinger being traded as all that insane an idea.

Consider Melo doesn't care about the Knicks, doesn't care about team basketball and doesn't care about winning. Every action reinforces that.

TripleThreat wrote:

Moonangie wrote:KP is the franchise cornerstone for the next decade. Suggesting anything else is more of the usual pattern of tilting at windmills. We're not doing that anymore. We have an established quantity in KP with unbelievable upside. Time to build AROUND him, not entertain the notion of using his value to trade into the unknown.

Interesting discussions by Billy Beane and Bill Belichick over the years, sometimes they actually give thoughtful and candid answers instead of canned responses.

One thing both have discussed, and it's a problem even the Yankees have faced is there is always internal pressure in a franchise to make a good "marketing" decision and there is internal pressure to make a good "winning" decision. In a perfect world, those the same thing, but in many cases, it is not.

Something in Michael Lewis's MoneyBall, that was pretty interesting, is one consideration in trading for David Justice from the Yankees, the A's had to factor in his ability to weather a whole season, but also his ability to help generate fan interest and ticket sales. This was also a factor when the A's traded Jose Canseco away to Texas, but resigned Ruben Sierra ( Yes, him, of the infamous "All those Yankees want to do is win" quote) to a long term deal to, in part, justify trading away Canseco.

In many ways, the Knicks are in a close situation to the Lakers, when Kobe Bryant was essentially holding the team hostage as a selfish aging player on a big cap killing deal and there was marketing concern about having a player to "anchor" a network and broadcasted games.

Without Zinger, Melo would probably not be discussed in trades. However if Melo just is going to rot here for two years, and he will make life hell for Zinger and Zinger will never get the ball, I'm not sure it's going to be a functional situation for Zinger to stay. The Knicks literally cannot make Melo go away. They can bench him, maybe suspend him, but not make him go away if he chooses to stay. If he poisons the locker room enough and stilts Zingers development enough, I don't see Zinger being traded as all that insane an idea.

Consider Melo doesn't care about the Knicks, doesn't care about team basketball and doesn't care about winning. Every action reinforces that.

No it is a COMPLETELY INSANE idea! You don't trade KP because Melo is too stubborn to ask for a trade to a vet team. This is not a rational thought from a typically rational poster. You must see how this isn't a good idea. We have KP and Willy here showing all kinds of potential and we have our 1st rd pick which in this draft is going to add another core piece. Why in the WORLD are we worried about what Melo is gonna do??? Melo is no longer the focal point of this franchise and he knows it. Deep down inside Melo knows this is about KP and the younger players.

nixluva wrote:No it is a COMPLETELY INSANE idea! You don't trade KP because Melo is too stubborn to ask for a trade to a vet team. This is not a rational thought from a typically rational poster. You must see how this isn't a good idea. We have KP and Willy here showing all kinds of potential and we have our 1st rd pick which in this draft is going to add another core piece. Why in the WORLD are we worried about what Melo is gonna do??? Melo is no longer the focal point of this franchise and he knows it. Deep down inside Melo knows this is about KP and the younger players.

An NBA first round pick is guaranteed his first two years of his contract. Iron clad. His team has options in Years 3 and 4 which are set up for pretty much every team to take and extend. A player can choose to reup and gain long term security for several more years, or he can do what Greg Monroe did, and to a lesser degree, KJ McDaniels, and bet on himself and get his freedom sooner.

If Melo simply chooses to rot on this Knicks team, he won't clear off the books until Zinger enters his 5th year into the league.

An issue with Hernangomez NO ONE is discussing is that he was a 2nd round pick. Second rounders do not carry the same team options and team control as first round picks. There is a reason why guys like Isiah Thomas 2, Chandler Parsons, Gilbert Arenas, Omer Asik all created difficult roster questions for their teams at one point or another. His access to freedom is much more expansive than Zingers.

Zinger is the ONLY real trade asset the Knicks have right now. Sure they have their picks and Hernangomez, but Zinger is the only player who could garner a decent sized return.

It's clear the team wants to build around AND market around Zinger. You think Melo has operated well whenever he is not the center of attention? His "branding" relies on him being the signature player on the Knicks roster. You think he is ever going to pass the ball to Zinger for the next two years?

Who said it had to be a good idea? Of course it's not a good idea nor an ideal situation, but plenty of teams have to trade players under non ideal situations, sometimes situations that their own stupidity created.

If it's clear Zinger is going to leave the first chance he gets, then you have to trade him or risk losing him for nothing. Before the Yankees traded Aroldis Chapman, do you think they wanted to trade him to the Cubs? But they weighed it out, what if he left and that was that? They got the best return they could for him, given the time and place. They were fortunate to get him back in FA, but that was no iron clad lock to happen. Do you think the Reds wanted to trade one of the best RPs in the game and maybe, over time, in all of baseball history? And trade him for peanuts? I don't care how much of Yankees homer someone can be, Rookie Davis, Tony Renda, Eric Jagielo, that's a whole lot of nothing.

Phil Jackson gutted this teams future. It's gonna get ugly again before it gets better.

Just believing that Melo will restrain himself in some way, when he's never shown that tendency ever, is the lack of rational thought.

I'd trade kp to the celtics for Lonzo ball. We have willy G for the 5-- filling the pg position with Ball would be a no brainer even letting kp go.

BRIGGS wrote:I'd trade kp to the celtics for Lonzo ball. We have willy G for the 5-- filling the pg position with Ball would be a no brainer even letting kp go.

We have seen enought of KP to know he's going to be at least an excellent player if not a superstar. Ball has yet to prove he belongs in the nba. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

shinmen wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I'd trade kp to the celtics for Lonzo ball. We have willy G for the 5-- filling the pg position with Ball would be a no brainer even letting kp go.

We have seen enought of KP to know he's going to be at least an excellent player if not a superstar. Ball has yet to prove he belongs in the nba. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

He's going to be really good and quick-- I don't need glasses for that one

Porzingis for Ball is tempting in today's league because a franchise point guard is more valuable than a franchise big. Just the way the league has evolved. But there's just something about us needing to reestablish something in NY where we draft our talent, grow it, develop, and reap the results in the prime years. I think we should not trade any picks that show good value, unless a franchise altering player is coming back. I would like to keep KP, Willy and our 2017 lottery pick for the longterm so we can have some home grown farming done, finally.

It's been too many years of trade the picks or trade the drafted kid like Gallo, for someone who you think may be better and take you somewhere. We should allow these young players to develop and keep trying to improve around them. The Rose move may not have paid the dividends we wanted, but sooner or later we will make a move that will work out with the veterans. And if you surround the young talent with some good winning veterans, you're set.

FWIW I was not on this board in 2010, but elsewhere I would post against the Melo trade of 2010. We should never have traded away Gallo and pieces that were showing .500 competitive ball. It's just the Knicks way of doing things, that I hope has now ceased under Phil. I hope we're happy with actually re-building and establishing our identity as a team that loves to draft and develop players in a system and a style of play that young players like to be in. That's also why I'm not against the Triangle, I think it's similar to the Spurs where if you bring in young players they'll form good habits and develop well in your system. It just takes alot of years to actually get it done without veterans who fit in.

BRIGGS wrote:

shinmen wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I'd trade kp to the celtics for Lonzo ball. We have willy G for the 5-- filling the pg position with Ball would be a no brainer even letting kp go.

We have seen enought of KP to know he's going to be at least an excellent player if not a superstar. Ball has yet to prove he belongs in the nba. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

He's going to be really good and quick-- I don't need glasses for that one

Or just drsft a pg with the 7-8 pick and keep KP and call it a day. KP is the ideal modern day center. Willy is a good player with good upside, but most don't really believe his potential is anywhere comparable to kp. No need to get fancy. Ball probably doesn't have KP's upside either. All this talk is pointless. It would never happen. Nor should it. It's a very bad idea.

TripleThreat wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Moonangie wrote:This is the most utterly foolish suggestion I have ever read on this forum. Did you take the "bake" part of your name too literally? You must be high on crack if you want to trade the ONLY good thing that has happened to our franchise in over 15 years.

In the new CBA, players don't jump teams unless there is immediate contention on the table. KP isn't going to leave. By the time his deal is up, Melo and Rose will be gone and he will have a VERY bright future here.

The crazy part is, this isn't the first time this has been suggested here. This board has completely lost its mind. Who would have thought this season would be the tipping point.

The 49ers traded Joe Montana

The Oilers traded Wayne Gretzky

Rashard Lewis, Gilbert Arenas and Joe Johnson were all traded, from what were seen as impossible contracts to dump. ( Albeit Lewis and Arenas were moved for each other in the same deal)

An anonymous former NFL GM was interviewed once, and he said, do you know how many times Steve Young was almost traded? Even after he was MVP.

Point is, if someone has interest in Zinger for a trade, the Knicks should do two specific things

A) Hear the team out. Never hurts to hear out any team on a trade offer.

B) If they ever do decide to trade him, then ONLY trade him at his highest point of value

Most NBA players make the biggest leaps in development between Years 1 and 2, and then again in Years 2 to 3. Big men historically take longer to develop than other positions ( no different than MLB catchers take more time to develop, a la Gary Sanchez)

Zingers peak value will be next deadline or next offseason.

Should the Knicks trade Zinger?

Depends on the offer on the table.

From a pragmatic standpoint, there is a whole lot of future ugly going on with this team. Noah's contract is ugly, and those last two years will be downright brutal. I don't see the same upside in Lee as many of you do. I think his Years 3 and 4 will also be ugly. Lance Thomas is an overpaid 10th man turned Quasi-Starter here, which is both bizarre and sad ( though as a general fan, I'm happy for him personally. He worked harder than a lot of players to get the few opportunities he had and he made the most of them, I think he's a limited and overpaid player, but I'll never take his grit from him ) There's a good chance Melo just rots here for two more years.

Melo does not react well to not being the center of attention. With him on the roster, the team will be a media circus as I'm not sure Phil Jackson will be totally gone either, and he will never pass Zinger the ball.

Other players ( Greg Monroe, Kevin Durant, Dwight Howard) have left money on the table to go somewhere else.

When Phil Jackson traded the next three years of this franchise for an ill fated attempt to get the 8th seed this year to salvage his personal reputation, this entire scenario isn't as crazy as it seems.

If someone wants to trade for Zinger, the team should listen. Not saying they should make a trade, I'm saying they should listen and hear if they get a truly Godfather offer for him. ( We all saw and laughed as those rat f**k Red Sox traded Anderson Espinosa for Drew Pomeranz, we also saw the Reds trade Aroldis "I beat my wife like Warren Moon" Chapman to the Yanks for a pile of crap, then the Yanks traded him for Gleyber Torres, then resigned Chapman anyway in free agency, in sports, anything can happen in a trade... truly anything...)

It's a little early to say you should trade him ( but honestly I think this is a very Herschel Walker type situation with him and I don't see a lot of upside in his future here with the current situation, I'm not saying he isn't a great player, but even great players can be shaded by circumstances), but I also think it's too early to say you should not trade him.

KP hates the nick name "Zinger".
No doubt a team should listen to legit offers, but as a fan just cuz you can't see the future, don't mean it won't happen.

Montana was past prime and Young was ready to start over him. Good Franchises move forward.
Oilers could not afford to pay Gretzky and risked losing him. Knicks can afford to pay KP.
Miami was right to let Wade walk. HE wanted money and respect, Miami got over it and moved forward. Its tough for players to not let ego drive them. Its how they got to be where they are. Ask ewing if he has any regrets.
As for KP, the "Confusion" is about on court schematics.

I'm disappointed with the state of this fan base. More discussion on trading kp than how to build around him. This is why everyone makes fun of knicks fans. No other fan base is discussing trading their 21 year old potential franchise player. Knicks fans continue to defy logic.

Knixkik wrote:I'm disappointed with the state of this fan base. More discussion on trading kp than how to build around him. This is why everyone makes fun of knicks fans. No other fan base is discussing trading their 21 year old potential franchise player. Knicks fans continue to defy logic.

It's because the last 15 years something has always gone wrong they feel even with KP same will happen.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:No it is a COMPLETELY INSANE idea! You don't trade KP because Melo is too stubborn to ask for a trade to a vet team. This is not a rational thought from a typically rational poster. You must see how this isn't a good idea. We have KP and Willy here showing all kinds of potential and we have our 1st rd pick which in this draft is going to add another core piece. Why in the WORLD are we worried about what Melo is gonna do??? Melo is no longer the focal point of this franchise and he knows it. Deep down inside Melo knows this is about KP and the younger players.

An NBA first round pick is guaranteed his first two years of his contract. Iron clad. His team has options in Years 3 and 4 which are set up for pretty much every team to take and extend. A player can choose to reup and gain long term security for several more years, or he can do what Greg Monroe did, and to a lesser degree, KJ McDaniels, and bet on himself and get his freedom sooner.

If Melo simply chooses to rot on this Knicks team, he won't clear off the books until Zinger enters his 5th year into the league.

An issue with Hernangomez NO ONE is discussing is that he was a 2nd round pick. Second rounders do not carry the same team options and team control as first round picks. There is a reason why guys like Isiah Thomas 2, Chandler Parsons, Gilbert Arenas, Omer Asik all created difficult roster questions for their teams at one point or another. His access to freedom is much more expansive than Zingers.

Zinger is the ONLY real trade asset the Knicks have right now. Sure they have their picks and Hernangomez, but Zinger is the only player who could garner a decent sized return.

It's clear the team wants to build around AND market around Zinger. You think Melo has operated well whenever he is not the center of attention? His "branding" relies on him being the signature player on the Knicks roster. You think he is ever going to pass the ball to Zinger for the next two years?

Who said it had to be a good idea? Of course it's not a good idea nor an ideal situation, but plenty of teams have to trade players under non ideal situations, sometimes situations that their own stupidity created.

If it's clear Zinger is going to leave the first chance he gets, then you have to trade him or risk losing him for nothing. Before the Yankees traded Aroldis Chapman, do you think they wanted to trade him to the Cubs? But they weighed it out, what if he left and that was that? They got the best return they could for him, given the time and place. They were fortunate to get him back in FA, but that was no iron clad lock to happen. Do you think the Reds wanted to trade one of the best RPs in the game and maybe, over time, in all of baseball history? And trade him for peanuts? I don't care how much of Yankees homer someone can be, Rookie Davis, Tony Renda, Eric Jagielo, that's a whole lot of nothing.

Phil Jackson gutted this teams future. It's gonna get ugly again before it gets better.

Just believing that Melo will restrain himself in some way, when he's never shown that tendency ever, is the lack of rational thought.

I can't think of any first round pick that had any worth that left his team. Greg Monroe and KJ McDaniels do not make a strong argument. Detroit wanted to TRADE Monroe and didn't have any real intention of resigning him and I have no idea who KJ is. Please name some players that will lead us to believe KP would leave. Possible? Yes. Likely? Absolutely not.

Phil locked up Willy for 4 years. Yes, he is signed through 2019-2020 where in the last year he will make $1.55M

http://www.basketball-reference.com/cont...

Also, if Melo wants to sign a 3 year deal beyond the one he has, he would probably opt out of last year to solidify a contract while he can still play, not after another year watching his body deteriorate.

Knixkik wrote:I'm disappointed with the state of this fan base. More discussion on trading kp than how to build around him. This is why everyone makes fun of knicks fans. No other fan base is discussing trading their 21 year old potential franchise player. Knicks fans continue to defy logic.

One fan of a thread does not constitute the base. I'd say Triple wants to have a discussion than it being a bonafide position.
Knick fans are starphuchers and play on broadway. The team does real well at the gate because of this. If winning is important he'll stay with the rebuild.
If not, I'll never see a chip in my lifetime again.