Knicks · What if we nail this top 10 pick? (page 3)

nyknickzingis wrote:Second on KP.

I agree that the current team has hurt KP's development a little. That's from a losing perspective and bad defensive culture than anything else. That to me is not because of the system they play. It's the overall talent not meshing with KP and also KP himself not putting in the work on the important aspect of his post game. KP is clearly a hard worker, and he and Willy are my 2 favorite players on the team, but KP did not work enough on his post game. He's also injured alot this season, hurting his rhythm. It all began with the achilles for KP. Once that happened, he has never gotten back to peak form. Same thing happened to him in the rookie season. Great start, middle hit a wall and injuries then regrouped and finished solid.

KP needs to put in work on his post game (or basically his game on shooting over smalls in 1 on 1 situation) and he needs to work on foul trouble. These two things are on him, not anyone else. Playing with Melo and Rose has sucked for him, but he still gets his shots off and he still gets to play pretty big minutes. I don't even think KP is ready to be the man, yet. The Knicks tried to put forth a team where KP would have a taste of the playoffs and that it would be good for his development to see what the playoffs are all about. It didn't work out, but if he had that playoff success it would be fantastic.

I still think KP will evolve into a great player if he is able to combat injury problems. The Dirk moves are all there for him. He's got to go to work this summer on his post moves and situations where he on the wing or top of the arc, shooting in an isolation over a small. He rushes those shots and doesn't take full advantage of the size right now. Then defensively, he has to work hard on his post base and defensive stance. Lots of work can be done and it's on him to put it in over the summer. Lets see what happens.

Agree 100%

smackeddog wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Zebo13 wrote: With the salary cap going up I don't think Noah's contract is quite as bad as it appears...

As a fan of the game itself, removing any issue regarding the Knicks and my own fandom, I love Noah as a player. I do. So it pains me to say, and this is widely held consensus around the league, that Noah is the worst contract in the league right now. It's absolutely horrible.

Is it really though? What about parsons? What about Mosgov? Deng? Biyombo? Its a bad contract but at least he brings intangibles and it's over with in 3 years. I think knick fans just seem to indulge in hyperbole.

To be honest under this CBA the only really bad contracts are the 5 year max's for 30+ players, simply because you can only sign the other free agents to 4 years. this isn't like in the IT era where you were doomed for many many years.

Demarr Carroll is making close to that and is TERRIBLE, and that was a signing from a GOOD GM. A bad contract is never a show stopper. A roster full of them sure... but every other contract is manageable.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Zebo13 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Unless you get Ball or Fultz--everyone else has growing pains ahead of them. They could be good--but if you have wild expectation on year 1--no way

I'm not talking about any expectations for year 1. I'm talking long-term, having 2 star players to build around-it changes the trajectory of this team completely.

Exactly!!! Teams that draft 2 Star quality players tend to be more successful. This shouldn't be about instant results. This is a long term process.

Building a good core is about hitting on multiple picks within a small time-frame. The way Golden state hit on Curry, Klay, and Green within a couple years of each other. So they can grow together and share prime years together. So if the rebuild began in 2015 with KP, than we have to hit on 2017 and 2018. Willy can be included as well. Because after that, KP will be getting late into his rookie contract and there becomes much more of a rush to build a win-now team. That's the problem New Orleans has. They are trying different things because it might be too late to draft a couple of 19 year olds to build alongside 24 year old Anthony Davis. Really, these next 2 drafts will make or break this team for the next 5-10 years.

this. People here have said this has needed to happen for a long time. Now that its happening its a disaster, we suck and Phil is the worst.

It's a silver lining to the absolutely atrocious job Phil did trying to build a contender through trades and free agency. Obviously most Knicks fans are fine with finally (hopefully) rebuilding through the draft. But to act like this was the plan Phil preached from the beginning is a massive, stinky pile of horse manure, man.

Remember Phil dangling the promise of cap room to sign two all-stars in 2015? That's how he got Melo to take less money that year, so we could add two max players. Then the team wins 17 games (when Phil predicted playoffs, he actually thought the Jose Calderon and Samuel Dalembert trade for Tyson Chandler and Felton would make them better!) and looks like a mess running the Triangle and we get Rolo and Afflalo, because no A-list or even B-list free agent will touch this team. He hits on KP in the draft, for which we're all eternally grateful.

Then 2016, he fires his coach, and swings for the fences with Rose (giving up a promising young PG and a competent cheap center) and Noah. Then he dicks Melo around in the media, alienating free agents across the league in the process. Not even mentioning the coaching back and forths and the Triangle will they or won't they game he's been playing.

He backed into rebuilding through the draft. And it's great he didn't trade any picks (though worth nothing that he could not trade the 2015 pick or the 2017 pick when he got here, since the 2014 and 2016 picks were already traded by previous regimes - he did try offering the 2018 pick for Teague in 2015, but the Hawks thought the pick was too far out).

We're in a good position with the draft now. I hope like hell we get a stud this year and next year, too. But to act like this was all part of Phil's master plan is a little much. It's a contingency plan. And I'm happy we're finally doing it - it's the ONLY way to build a team, imho. We need two years of good picks and then maybe look at Free Agency in 2018 summer.

I agree with all of this but in Phils defense I think there was a lot of pressure to compete this year and last year with the amount of money we're paying Melo as well as his limited prime years. He made some moves and put together a team that could compete and win, albeit rarely, against any team in the league on a given night. With the salary cap going up I don't think Noah's contract is quite as bad as it appears and Lee is a good player with a good salary for the future as a starter or stud bench player. We've devoloped and discovered some good talent and glue guys to fill in some roles with KP and who we draft this year being the main future focus. And who knows, on a functional two way team Melo will likely be a lot better at team defense and ball movement.

I would say it has NOT been "absolutely atrocious" by any stretch. People like to harp on how all in Phil was with his win now and how badly he tanked but the bottom line is he didnt trade picks, and the Knicks unprotected #1 and future #1s in this FA market have great value. Phil has clearly exhausted every means.. Europe, D league, 2nd round.. to bring in and develop young talent. So yes.. he was utterly failed to get this group to contend NO, he has not been absolutely atrocious because the losing season will yield what we all know this franchise needs above ALL else.. more high end young talent.

He got guys for Melo. Everyone knows Phil asked Melo if they were moving fast enough. Maybe its Melo. Maybe its the roster Phil built. There has been a tear down and thats OK. The trades have been below average for sure. Even if guys like NDour, Plumlee, Randal or Baker never pan they show a good crop of guys to bring in and look at. I dont see us over focusing on one type of player. Thats been part of the problem.. Phil has failed to assemble and fitting parts. Truly a clumsy roster! But I do remain patient because I also see a commitment to build here. The had Melo. Worth a shot. No picks were spent in that shot. Next phase. I dont think its any more complicated.

That's fair - as long as we're committed to the next phase. Phil hasn't actually said anything about the state of the Knicks since September. I'd like to see word come down to start playing the young guys more and actually seeing what we have in guys like Randle and Kuz and Plumlee. I'll be very curious to hear what Phil has to say about this year after the season is over. I'm assuming he will address the media in mid April after exit interviews. Backing into a rebuild isn't the worst thing. And as many of us admit - that's what we need. Probably at least two to three years of being young and kinda bad and getting good picks in 2017, 18 and even 19. That clearly should be the plan. But unless Phil was performing a three year Jedi mind trick, I think it's fair to say that was not his plan coming in.

I understand the frustration of Phil's silence. I also think "backing into a rebuild" is much fairer than "absolutely atrocious" but again... i do understand your frustration and I know you to be like me, a guy who posts without an agenda. Because of this I listen to your frustrations with Phil much closer than others who I know simply hate him and want him to fail.

I do think Phil is more old school where they didnt talk about this stuff. He's from a time before the internet rumor mills and feeling of constant transparency and clearly he's got some adjustments to make there.

That being said I think your phrase of backing into a rebuild is perfect. He's had 1 first rounder in the first 3 years right? He had Melo and some other pieces here (which he made poor trades with). It made sense to take a shot and what did that shot cost us? Grant? Lopez? Possibly a bad contract with Noah? Those arent things that set franchises back though... not being able to bring in lottery quality talent after losing does.

So while MANY of Phils moves have not been good I dont see a clueless GM here. I see a GM clearly trying to get a pipeline and system built here. Phil has struggled no doubt... but many have used this season as an example of how clueless Phil is based on the fact that he thought this would be a playoff roster. Only thing is Phil did not double down on his mistakes despite opportunity. And if he did think this would be a successful group he didnt think it so much as to use any future asset (aside from possible cap space) to build this team. I look at every guy on this roster and I am good with the type of guys he's brought in with the exception of Melo (who was already here) and Rose (who's commitment was a 1 season tryout). So my overall perspective continues to be upbeat. My 2c

I agree with what you're saying about not having picks in 2014 and 2016. That obviously wasn't Phil's fault. I do think he could've held out for a pick in the Shump/JR trade and also the Tyson trade (or maybe Jae Crowder - a promising young piece). Or stuck with either Hardaway or Grant longer. Hey, his options were extremely limited. But to be fair, we've heard from around the league that Phil does not really talk to most other GMs and opposing GMs don't even know who to call on trades sometimes. Phil has not done great there. But I concede that not having picks two of his three years here has been a killer. I am deeply thankful he hasn't moved further picks away. And I do think he could talk a little more frequently in public. Walsh did. I think that's why people overreact to his cryptic tweets and things like Rosen slamming Melo - it reads like Phil's commentary on the team.

Anyway - we all want the same damn thing. The Knicks to be good. I think we pretty much all agree that it has to be through the draft now. As recently as summer of 2015 people were saying we could get Draymond Green or Danny Green or LaMarcus Aldridge or Deandre Jordan. Heck even last summer people were saying maybe we could get Nic Batum. I'm glad we're past the point of believing a magic elixir is coming via free agency. I just want to build through the draft. Maybe try to add a piece here or there through free agency. But look to be really good in a few years instead of this idea that we are one move away. We're like ten moves away and we need some good luck in the draft to get there. And yeah - I'm sure every single one of us wants a good young player from the draft. Hopefully a star on KP's level? Then we can be on our way towards something real. Here's hoping.

well with KP and Willy here the magic elixir is slightly more realistic. Knicks need to get lucky plain and simple. First and formost that means lottery magic. Either we move to a top 3 and get Ball or we end up somewhere like 6 where a gem like Fox falls to us and he turns out to be a Wade type player. There is no denying luck plays a big role and we need some.

If we were to get that luck and grab that blue chipper (lets just indulge a dream and say Ball) we would be looking like this:
young core: KP/Willy/Ball
fringe/pipeline: Plumlee, Baker, Randle, NDour
vets: Lee, Noah, Lance

Trade chip: Melo. I dont know what we can get, but if we get a 3rd team involved and say only take back Austin Rivers Knicks would then have $35-$40mm in cap space as well.

Maybe we draft a bust and in a panic resign Rose to $150mm contract. God knows anything can happen but I dont see us being so far from being in a very good position moving forward.

I also think that if we do move on and Rose/Melo are gone next year PHil's FA crop of Lance, Noah and Lee will look pretty good in a system where the ball moves and people are held accountable for defense.