I would not want to play Rose next to any rookie I draft. Any rookie. If I draft a kid that is just so good he warrants being run out there as a starter Rose would be the guy to move to the bench. No reason he cant play a Lou Williams role. He can have 15 minutes or so as the back up PG and another 10-15 in 3 guard sets. On paper the perfect guy for Rose to play next to is a 6'6 PG with a 7'0 wingspan like Frank, but the time line doesnt match up. No way that kid is ready to effectively cover for Rose's shortcomings. Rose needs an Eric Snow type.
Knixkik wrote:nixluva wrote:Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:fishmike wrote:Rose is a very good scorer. I wouldnt low ball him. If we think he can fit I think the offer is 2 years $50mm. He stays hungry, Knicks stay flexible, Rose still see's an all star player's pay day. If someone wants to max him out for 4 years by all means. If we draft a guy like Frank or DFox they can come off the bench. Nothing wrong with that.
I'd actually be very curious to see DFox and DRose in the same backcourt, with Rose playing more of a SG.
DFox
DRose
CLee-or-Lance
Melo
KP
Would be an interesting lineup that could do some damage in transition.
Worst shooting backcourt in the league. It would be a major issue.
I think there's some hope with Fox when I watch him shoot it doesn't look bad. It looks like a guy that just needs more reps and to get stronger. Not saying he's gonna be an insane 3pt shooter but I can see him making significant improvement once he's able to focus on it with a Pro Level Shooting Guru.
I agree, he will learn how to shoot, but we can't put him next to a non-shooter. It would be a disaster putting multiple below average outside shooters around Porzingis and Willy. No more of these awkward lineups, we need to build a real team. Fox is an ideal PG, but we need wings that can shoot and defend.
Yeah, Rose is great at the basket but useless from more than 3 feet out. Giving him a large contract works if we're planning to tank.
crzymdups wrote:fishmike wrote:Rose is a very good scorer. I wouldnt low ball him. If we think he can fit I think the offer is 2 years $50mm. He stays hungry, Knicks stay flexible, Rose still see's an all star player's pay day. If someone wants to max him out for 4 years by all means. If we draft a guy like Frank or DFox they can come off the bench. Nothing wrong with that.
I'd actually be very curious to see DFox and DRose in the same backcourt, with Rose playing more of a SG.
DFox
DRose
CLee-or-Lance
Melo
KP
Would be an interesting lineup that could do some damage in transition.
If the Knicks are lucky to select a 6.6 PG-Lonzo Ball out of the draft, resigning a scorer Rose would be a wise move.
As for Lee (need to be traded), and Lance both showed to be non keepers for next season.
Kemet wrote:crzymdups wrote:fishmike wrote:Rose is a very good scorer. I wouldnt low ball him. If we think he can fit I think the offer is 2 years $50mm. He stays hungry, Knicks stay flexible, Rose still see's an all star player's pay day. If someone wants to max him out for 4 years by all means. If we draft a guy like Frank or DFox they can come off the bench. Nothing wrong with that.
I'd actually be very curious to see DFox and DRose in the same backcourt, with Rose playing more of a SG.
DFox
DRose
CLee-or-Lance
Melo
KP
Would be an interesting lineup that could do some damage in transition.
If the Knicks are lucky to select a 6.6 PG-Lonzo Ball out of the draft, resigning a scorer Rose would be a wise move.
As for Lee (need to be traded), and Lance both showed to be non keepers for next season.
I disagree. Lance and Lee provide shooting, defense, and leadership. 3 things that are needed when building a team around young players like KP, Willy, and possibly a rookie PG.
Using Rose as a combo
Maybe starting him at PG
Moving to SG
Using him with 3 guards
Not exclusively a PG
He hasnt shot the 3 but he has attacked the rim made his free throws and mid range shots hasnt turned the ball over and has several good assist games
Weve invested a lot of time into the "triangle" and for the next 2 years--keeps him under 30 and mitigates risk. At worst we could move him to 6th man a role which I think hed be pretty darn good at.
BRIGGS wrote:Using Rose as a comboMaybe starting him at PG
Moving to SG
Using him with 3 guards
Not exclusively a PG
He hasnt shot the 3 but he has attacked the rim made his free throws and mid range shots hasnt turned the ball over and has several good assist games
Weve invested a lot of time into the "triangle" and for the next 2 years--keeps him under 30 and mitigates risk. At worst we could move him to 6th man a role which I think hed be pretty darn good at.
He would be fine as 6th man. The problem is thinking he can be more than that for a winning team, just because he looks good scoring sometimes. Also, will he happily accept and embrace 6th man role. Again, don't be fooled by his recent play. We know what he can do, but we also know the red flags.
I don't think we should talk ourselves into Rose at any price. He's in a contract year and we saw what we saw -- he talked a much better game about D than he played
I applaud Phil for the creativity and low risk high reward, but would focus our attention elsewhere. We can use that money (and Melo's) more effectively
BRIGGS wrote:Using Rose as a comboMaybe starting him at PG
Moving to SG
Using him with 3 guards
Not exclusively a PG
He hasnt shot the 3 but he has attacked the rim made his free throws and mid range shots hasnt turned the ball over and has several good assist games
Weve invested a lot of time into the "triangle" and for the next 2 years--keeps him under 30 and mitigates risk. At worst we could move him to 6th man a role which I think hed be pretty darn good at.
this has some logic except for the absence of outside shooting. Briggs I thought you were adamant about that. It's not that Rose doesn't have some skills, but we learned he's not a good fit for our system principally on the defensive end. I'm also discouraged for his inability to draw fouls (still the most efficient way to score). It befuddles me that he doesn't attack the front of the rim
BRIGGS wrote:36mm? Even if we dont like him at PG long term--the way the guy is playing moist nights--hes a valuable piece. I dont know how many teams would do more than that. If we get a young PG we could play 2 and 3 guards at one time.
F**k Derrick Rose.
He just simply decided he wasn't going to show up for a game. F**k that.
Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out....
It's bad enough the franchise might be stuck with one moody ballhog who refuses to play actual team BB, but to VOLUNTARILY REUP A GUY WHO DECIDED TO NOT SHOW UP?
TripleThreat wrote:BRIGGS wrote:36mm? Even if we dont like him at PG long term--the way the guy is playing moist nights--hes a valuable piece. I dont know how many teams would do more than that. If we get a young PG we could play 2 and 3 guards at one time.
F**k Derrick Rose.
He just simply decided he wasn't going to show up for a game. F**k that.
Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out....
It's bad enough the franchise might be stuck with one moody ballhog who refuses to play actual team BB, but to VOLUNTARILY REUP A GUY WHO DECIDED TO NOT SHOW UP?
Sure lets replace him with Jose Calderon. I think the way Miami got Dion Waiters to play team ball--a good coach could get Derrick Rose to play good team ball. Derrick Rose has the physical attributes and game--he can do it. I agree with you I didnt like that episode--but in life we all fck up from time to time. Id like to see Rose add some 3 point shooting--not a lot but the threat. I dont see any team giving him much more than 2 years 36mm--hes here--as long as there is no inside problems--we should be able to work with him. Or else why is he even playing one minute right now--it would make zero sense.
I want the younger guys to get larger roles - for better or worse. Rose will freelance in the second year trying to score a big contract. Thanks but no thanks
BRIGGS wrote:TripleThreat wrote:BRIGGS wrote:36mm? Even if we dont like him at PG long term--the way the guy is playing moist nights--hes a valuable piece. I dont know how many teams would do more than that. If we get a young PG we could play 2 and 3 guards at one time.
F**k Derrick Rose.
He just simply decided he wasn't going to show up for a game. F**k that.
Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out....
It's bad enough the franchise might be stuck with one moody ballhog who refuses to play actual team BB, but to VOLUNTARILY REUP A GUY WHO DECIDED TO NOT SHOW UP?
Sure lets replace him with Jose Calderon. I think the way Miami got Dion Waiters to play team ball--a good coach could get Derrick Rose to play good team ball. Derrick Rose has the physical attributes and game--he can do it. I agree with you I didnt like that episode--but in life we all fck up from time to time. Id like to see Rose add some 3 point shooting--not a lot but the threat. I dont see any team giving him much more than 2 years 36mm--hes here--as long as there is no inside problems--we should be able to work with him. Or else why is he even playing one minute right now--it would make zero sense.
I tend to agree with your point. What Rose did was not cool, but we not talking about being a Navy seal and a "Brother in Arms".....We talking pro sports.
At the end of the day players are human, and some are entitled spoiled men that are not totally emotionally mature. Oak would never have gone awol!! Starks pulled a few dumb stunts back in the day and lord knows Spree did not put his team before himself. Some of fans still pine for JR smith and totally forgive him for his vehicular manslaughter incident! Clowning is "mailing it in" in my book.
What ever happend in and around the trade deadline, rose did get focused and kept a spot on the floor. It was rumored he was to be released if not traded.
But as we all know, the mouth says one thing (I want to be here, I want to win, money is secondary, ETC ETC.....)and actions are another.
He has not made good choices regarding his sex life and when it bleeds from a private matter to public it becomes a distraction.
That said, its his talent and health Im concerned about. IF he was focused on the triangle once financial considerations were settled, could he be the player Phil imagined him to be?
And if so, at what price?
and Does melo factor into any of this?
This also determines who we draft.
Big decisions.
You decide on Rose after the draft and Melo situation has been resolved.
NYKBocker wrote:You decide on Rose after the draft and Melo situation has been resolved.
I agree. Also, he is out with left knee soreness and swelling tonight.
BRIGGS wrote:36mm? Even if we dont like him at PG long term--the way the guy is playing moist nights--hes a valuable piece. I dont know how many teams would do more than that. If we get a young PG we could play 2 and 3 guards at one time.
I would def bring him back no hesitation!!!
Rose is sign-and-trade bait at this point. Short of that we should cut him loose. He is taking valuable minutes at the 1 for whatever Rookie PG we draft.
BRIGGS wrote:36mm? Even if we dont like him at PG long term--the way the guy is playing moist nights--hes a valuable piece. I dont know how many teams would do more than that. If we get a young PG we could play 2 and 3 guards at one time.
I have always respected and enjoyed your posts the last few years but why would you sign Rose for any money? He doesn't play defense he doesn't pass the ball and he can't shoot threes, do we want any PG rookie watching this guy play and picking up all his bad habits? Rose drives very very well and has an automatic floater BUT that's ALL HE DOES. I'd rather save that money and pick up someone else who scores half as much as he does but with higer shooting percentages and passes the ball plays defense and shoots the three at an average rate.
What good is being spectacular at driving the ball when you never pass it out? He doesn't open up the game for anyone else. You might as well just get some guy that shoots a high percentage midrange shot and save yourself $5-8 million a year. We are also under the assumption that he won't get injured ever again. The more he plays without getting injured the more he is gonna push his physical limits cause he gets by on physical ability not his basketball IQ so I think its only a matter of time before he gets a major injury.
No thank you I pass let him walk for nothing.
Stevo718 wrote:BRIGGS wrote:36mm? Even if we dont like him at PG long term--the way the guy is playing moist nights--hes a valuable piece. I dont know how many teams would do more than that. If we get a young PG we could play 2 and 3 guards at one time.
I have always respected and enjoyed your posts the last few years but why would you sign Rose for any money? He doesn't play defense he doesn't pass the ball and he can't shoot threes, do we want any PG rookie watching this guy play and picking up all his bad habits? Rose drives very very well and has an automatic floater BUT that's ALL HE DOES. I'd rather save that money and pick up someone else who scores half as much as he does but with higer shooting percentages and passes the ball plays defense and shoots the three at an average rate.
What good is being spectacular at driving the ball when you never pass it out? He doesn't open up the game for anyone else. You might as well just get some guy that shoots a high percentage midrange shot and save yourself $5-8 million a year. We are also under the assumption that he won't get injured ever again. The more he plays without getting injured the more he is gonna push his physical limits cause he gets by on physical ability not his basketball IQ so I think its only a matter of time before he gets a major injury.
No thank you I pass let him walk for nothing.
Rose has some shortcomings but hes a pretty tight player. I think you got a glimpse of life without Rose tonight. He does not have to be a primary PG. He can start the game and give 5-6 minutes and shift to 2 guard or even 3 guard sets.
Ive though this all season--we have a very mediocre 2 guard. Hes very inconsistent and has no explosion to his game---its just not how the NBA is now--you need more from the 2 guard. For example we draft Lonzo Ball we can use Derek and Ball as guards and move Lee to the bench where he belongs. If we get Jon Jackson we can put him at 3 move Melo to 4 and find a mobile 2 guard. I think Rose represents stabilization. Hes going to shoot very close to 50% and not turn the ball over. Hes not going to pick up full court like a Fox can do--and that counts--but I think this offseason we can learn and compliment. We need MOBILE players with some size---NOT C Lee he doesnt use the dribble --hes just way way over rated to what they believed they were getting. Its also coaching---Miami played a style of play and got Dion Waiters to buy in. Were running the wrong system where player dont move enough and are thinking too much. I really like the way Miami played and I believe much more in their 268 then their start. We have to learn as a team from other good teams. I dont think Rose is a killer for this team--he can be a stabilzer and hes a good go to 4th quarter player for high % shots.
If Melo is gone okay
BRIGGS wrote:36mm? Even if we dont like him at PG long term--the way the guy is playing moist nights--hes a valuable piece. I dont know how many teams would do more than that. If we get a young PG we could play 2 and 3 guards at one time.
I think most people have seen enough. He's going to be 29 next year and I don't see him improving, especially here. I'm inclined to say no, I'd consider a one-year, make good contract at most. If we do draft a pg, then I'd consider someone like Darren collision
We suck just as much with him as we do without him. We know he's not the answer, so let's just cut ties. We still have KP if you're worried about next year's team.
Jmpasq wrote:If Melo is gone okayBRIGGS wrote:36mm? Even if we dont like him at PG long term--the way the guy is playing moist nights--hes a valuable piece. I dont know how many teams would do more than that. If we get a young PG we could play 2 and 3 guards at one time.
You really think Rose is going to be a smarter, better player if Melo is gone? He still doesn't have a decent jumper, passing, or defense, and I don't think you can just put that on Melo. He hasn't played like a guy worth almost $20 mil per season in years. This looks like a bad gamble to me.
