Knicks · Pippen says Phil is to blame and more on, The Jump (page 5)
knicks1248 wrote:NYKBocker wrote:EnySpree wrote:If nobody said it yet....FUCK SCOTTIE PIPPEN
Yup! and the horse he rode in!
why the hate, phil hasn't done anything but made your favorite team a laughing stock,
So Phil made the Knicks a laughing stock? They were a laughing stock for the last 15 years.
StarksEwing1 wrote:EnySpree wrote:If nobody said it yet....Yeah Pippen really shouldn't have the right to make judgments. he was a good player BUT he was very fortunate to play with the greatest of all time and probably the greatest coach of all timeFUCK SCOTTIE PIPPEN
My thing is Pippen is a bitch. You can't have overwhelmingly support for Oakley then allow Pippen to talk smack about us even though he might be right.
Fuck SCOTTIE Pippen in Anthony Masons name Amen!
knicks1248 wrote:if phi plays his d league squad and w win 5out of 7, then is could say melo kick rocks, and phil maybe on o something, but if we go 0-7...it all on phil
Shhhhhhhhh just go to sleep
EnySpree wrote:knicks1248 wrote:if phi plays his d league squad and w win 5out of 7, then is could say melo kick rocks, and phil maybe on o something, but if we go 0-7...it all on philShhhhhhhhh just go to sleep
Jesus! I just can't understand guys like knicks1248. You would think this is a Layden or Thomas team with nothing to root for. We do have some young studs and future picks. This is NOT a horrible situation like those of the past.
Over the decades I've seen a lot of this stuff. And what inevitably follows is a successful season or two followed by a championship. And after the win, the commentators always say something like, "He was ruthlessly criticized for the moves he made and today he's considered executive of the year."
I happen to disagree with Rosen about both Hernangomez and Baker. Both play with heart and intent to improve their game. Both have a future on this team.
I think its easy to criticize what you don't understand and so many Phil critics and pundits think rebuilding is a linear process - one good thing follows another - no matter what. Its not like that. Its a lot more complex. If we're going to criticize Phil for any bad moves, it starts with the resigning of Melo.
I think Melo's resigning was predicated by two things; first, Dolan's initial investment in acquiring Melo and second, Melo, for all his faults, was a premiere scoring machine not unlike stars Phil had previously developed. We can chase our tails in perpetuity arguing about fault but its clear that Melo has not developed along any superstar avenue anyone could have imagined at resigning time.
And *that* is, uncomfortably, on Melo's shoulders. He's had years to learn and master what has always been expected and hasn't. And the attitude is toxic. Melo is surrounded by complementary players who he shoulda, coulda, woulda been successful with - players he should have led. And never did.
So now that players who are willing to play the system - who are criticized for being unworthy - are playing great team ball that's very competitive, we have a contingent of fans who think Melo would make them better. Not only better but better enough that Phil should be fired for holding Melo back.
Yeah, I just can't read enough of this anti-Phil stuff. The team is brimming with young talent - young talent more likely to win than any Melo lineup - and draft picks and tradeable assets.
Was the journey linear, perfect, mistake-proof? It wasn't Sooooooooooooooo, let's bash Phil.
Genius. Let's make Scottie Pippen President.
EnySpree wrote:If nobody said it yet....FUCK SCOTTIE PIPPEN
Testify!
fwk00 wrote:All you need to do is look up Scottie Pippen and Real Estate. But let's face it, any comment mentioning Phil is treated like a basketball prophecy promoting yet more bashing.Over the decades I've seen a lot of this stuff. And what inevitably follows is a successful season or two followed by a championship. And after the win, the commentators always say something like, "He was ruthlessly criticized for the moves he made and today he's considered executive of the year."
I happen to disagree with Rosen about both Hernangomez and Baker. Both play with heart and intent to improve their game. Both have a future on this team.
I think its easy to criticize what you don't understand and so many Phil critics and pundits think rebuilding is a linear process - one good thing follows another - no matter what. Its not like that. Its a lot more complex. If we're going to criticize Phil for any bad moves, it starts with the resigning of Melo.
I think Melo's resigning was predicated by two things; first, Dolan's initial investment in acquiring Melo and second, Melo, for all his faults, was a premiere scoring machine not unlike stars Phil had previously developed. We can chase our tails in perpetuity arguing about fault but its clear that Melo has not developed along any superstar avenue anyone could have imagined at resigning time.
And *that* is, uncomfortably, on Melo's shoulders. He's had years to learn and master what has always been expected and hasn't. And the attitude is toxic. Melo is surrounded by complementary players who he shoulda, coulda, woulda been successful with - players he should have led. And never did.
So now that players who are willing to play the system - who are criticized for being unworthy - are playing great team ball that's very competitive, we have a contingent of fans who think Melo would make them better. Not only better but better enough that Phil should be fired for holding Melo back.
Yeah, I just can't read enough of this anti-Phil stuff. The team is brimming with young talent - young talent more likely to win than any Melo lineup - and draft picks and tradeable assets.
Was the journey linear, perfect, mistake-proof? It wasn't Sooooooooooooooo, let's bash Phil.
Genius. Let's make Scottie Pippen President.
EnySpree wrote:If nobody said it yet....FUCK SCOTTIE PIPPEN
LOL. Scottie speaks and some people act like we no longer have to do any thinking for ourselves.
nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:knicks1248 wrote:if phi plays his d league squad and w win 5out of 7, then is could say melo kick rocks, and phil maybe on o something, but if we go 0-7...it all on philShhhhhhhhh just go to sleep
Jesus! I just can't understand guys like knicks1248. You would think this is a Layden or Thomas team with nothing to root for.
I remember you finding PLENTY to root for with those teams!
fwk00 wrote:I think its easy to criticize what you don't understand and so many Phil critics and pundits think rebuilding is a linear process - one good thing follows another - no matter what. Its not like that. Its a lot more complex.
I won't disagree that any pro sports rebuild is not going to be easy, however in the modern NBA, the aspects of an initial rebuild almost forces itself upon a team.
There is a scarcity of talent, there are just about no market inefficiencies in the system, there is a massive tier gap between the elite players and everyone else. There are not enough elite players to go around to sustain every team in the league with a franchise core.
The Nets signing Crabbe to an offer sheet might have blown up in their face. However he's a young player, he can shoot, he can play the wing, there was risk, but the upside was at least potentially there.
There is just no upside in the Noah/Rose decisions. And unlike the NFL, these contracts are guaranteed, you make moves, you can hurt yourself for half a decade for a decision you make in one preseason.
There are very few avenues to get better, there are a very few opportunities to improve your roster, there are only so many minutes to give around in a game. In MLB, the Royals won with speed, defense and betting early on the move towards using an elite bullpen. But MLB has enough of a talent base and opportunity to move/change talent that they could go in one direction versus another. In the modern NBA, if you are in the middle, it's basically slow death.
Yes, once you start accumulating assets and stockpiling young players, sure, you have to start making some very rough decisions ( i.e. OKC with Harden, Houston making a move for Howard, etc) but in the early stages, when you are a bottom dwelling team, with little NBA talent, then it's not so complex. Sell everything and tank. Don't lock into aging guys in decline who burn out your hopeful timeline. Focus on smaller signings who can help you now, in the future, or as trade bits.
A rebuild at a certain stage in the NBA gets rough ( The Celtics are facing it right now, they have a lot of young guys, a lot of assets, but they need to get over the hump, this is where a lot could go wrong, but the early part, dumping Pierce and Garnett and tanking, that wasn't hard at all. ) but the Knicks are not at that point.
The problem I see with Jackson discussion is it always goes either he's great or he's horrible, instead of he's just mediocre, and that mediocre is enough to want to move on from him.
The margin for error in an NBA rebuild, if the goal is to eventually win a ring, is close to none. That's just the way the current system operates. Every move should be heavily scrutinized accordingly.
If Jackson makes mistakes that the Knicks will pay for, for the next three years after this one, and he gets heat for it, that's not hate in my book. You want to be "The Man", you get the power to run it your way, you have to eat the blame in the same way you get to hog the credit if you win. It works both ways.
Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:knicks1248 wrote:if phi plays his d league squad and w win 5out of 7, then is could say melo kick rocks, and phil maybe on o something, but if we go 0-7...it all on philShhhhhhhhh just go to sleep
Jesus! I just can't understand guys like knicks1248. You would think this is a Layden or Thomas team with nothing to root for.
I remember you finding PLENTY to root for with those teams!
WOW! Nice try but you failed!!! You don't remember me commenting on Layden cuz I wasn't a member until after Layden was fired.
A Fan being supportive early on with a new GM is one thing but that's not what we're talking about is it??? At the end of both Layden and Thomas terms there was nothing to root for and I think you won't find anything from me suggesting we be happy with how either regime ended. That's NOT where we are now!!!
Did Layden or Thomas have ANYTHING like what Phil has with KP and Willy going into another Draft with picks??? It's not the same and you know it!!! Try to focus more on the actual situation rather than trying to find something to rag on me about. Of all the last GM's we've had Phil is the only one that has managed to find himself in this situation. Losing but with something good in place for the future.
nixluva wrote:i think knicks1248 has made it clear that he is a fan of "veterans" even flawed ones and doesnt believe in building a young squad through the draft. Thats his right but me personally after 16 years of starphucking and ending up worse so i want to try this approach now with the youth.EnySpree wrote:knicks1248 wrote:if phi plays his d league squad and w win 5out of 7, then is could say melo kick rocks, and phil maybe on o something, but if we go 0-7...it all on philShhhhhhhhh just go to sleep
Jesus! I just can't understand guys like knicks1248. You would think this is a Layden or Thomas team with nothing to root for. We do have some young studs and future picks. This is NOT a horrible situation like those of the past.
I see lots of faults with what Jackson has done, but I'm still happier with his job than Walsh and Isiah. He has not done the thing anything to set us back. He has not moved us forward like we hoped or wanted, but he has set the table up for longterm success if we keep drafting well.
It's easy to win when your best player makes a pact with Lebron and Bosh to be teammates. If Melo did that, I'm sure we would have signed some great free agents. It's not like teams who have become great through free agency do it overnight or don't have some outstanding luck. Phil's been a huge bust in free agency, but it's also not exactly been a great situation for a free agent. Who can sell "Come play second fiddle to Melo on a 35 win team". The Knicks were a lottery team with Melo when Phil came to town. They have not been able to pitch what Golden State could pitch to Durant, or San Antonio could pitch to Aldridge. They don't have that home connection the Cavs have with Lebron. I don't know who people wanted Phil to sign to make us a great team, becausse outside of Lebron/Durant, there wasn't really a player out there over the last few years who have changed our fortunes as a team or franchise. Phil picked the wrong role players in free agency with Noah, but outside of Noah, he's been doing what most smart executives do. Sign cap friendly contracts like Lopez, Afflalo, Lee, Thomas, Jennings. Take a 1 year risk with Rose.
Look at the Lakers in the time Phil has been here. I don't feel it's right to put all the heat on Phil. There's been many limitations and lots of top free agents were never interested in teaming up with Melo in NY.
Meanwhile he has gotten top 5 rookies (In KP's case top 2) in consecutive seasons. If we get another all-NBA rookie this summer (top 5 rookie) we may have three longterm core players. In 2018 when Melo opts out (if he's still with us next year) the Knicks capspace situation looks great. I don't know why many thing Phil has done a horrible job. He hasn't done a good job, but he certainly hasn't done that bad. Bad is what Walsh and Isiah were doing. Incapable to draft well. Incapsble to have patience to let young players develop. Let capspace be open every year. These are the keys to being a good run team. Keep capspace open each summer. Draft well.
nyknickzingis wrote:I'm just trying to think of the last time the Knicks had two players in back to back seasons that made first team all-rookie in the NBA.
2011 & 12. Landry Fields and Iman Shumpert.
Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:I'm just trying to think of the last time the Knicks had two players in back to back seasons that made first team all-rookie in the NBA.2011 & 12. Landry Fields and Iman Shumpert.
2014 Tim Hardaway Jr. 1st team & 2015 Langston Galloway 2nd team...So are we proving we can have young all NBA players and still suck yet??
holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:I'm just trying to think of the last time the Knicks had two players in back to back seasons that made first team all-rookie in the NBA.2011 & 12. Landry Fields and Iman Shumpert.
2014 Tim Hardaway Jr. 1st team & 2015 Langston Galloway 2nd team...So are we proving we can have young all NBA players and still suck yet??
Yeah, it's certainly nice to have these kids but people's optimism goes off through the charts when there's a nice young player on the team.
Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:I'm just trying to think of the last time the Knicks had two players in back to back seasons that made first team all-rookie in the NBA.2011 & 12. Landry Fields and Iman Shumpert.
I knew about Shump, Landry totally slipped my radar. Forgot he made the team.
I'll cop to being high on Shump. I honestly think he really underahieved. He had so much talent to work with. He just never put it together. I don't know if the guy works hard in the offseason because he didn't improve from his rookie year.
I'll also say this, I don't think either of those two are close to as good as rookies as KP and Willy are/were. But I get the point, the Knicks have had some good rookies before, doesn't automatically mean they'll become very good players. Lets just say I'll be shocked if Willy and KP end up like Landry and Shump.
nyknickzingis wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:I'm just trying to think of the last time the Knicks had two players in back to back seasons that made first team all-rookie in the NBA.2011 & 12. Landry Fields and Iman Shumpert.
I knew about Shump, Landry totally slipped my radar. Forgot he made the team.I'll cop to being high on Shump. I honestly think he really underahieved. He had so much talent to work with. He just never put it together. I don't know if the guy works hard in the offseason because he didn't improve from his rookie year.
I'll also say this, I don't think either of those two are close to as good as rookies as KP and Willy are/were. But I get the point, the Knicks have had some good rookies before, doesn't automatically mean they'll become very good players. Lets just say I'll be shocked if Willy and KP end up like Landry and Shump.
Well, we always get really high on our rookies here. Look here: Channing Frye is a combination of Tim Duncan, Rasheed Wallace, and Kevin McHale blended into one player:
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi... Many people really thought we had our franchise player then.
People didn't get as excited about Landry but I remember them comparing him to Tayshawn Prince often.
Fuck Scottie Pippen!!! I don't care what he has to say
Phil is a prick. Red Auerbach was a prick. Pop is a Prick. Riles is a Prick.
Uber successful coach's are not always nice people. Same for Executives. Red, Pop and Riles had a lot of years as GM/President.
Phil just 3.
Seems like Phil's comments about Melo are pretty tame stuff.
Seems like patience is thin after 3 years. Phil has broken the string of trading pick's dependancy! That is very important for the future of this franchise. We have felt the effects of this for YEARS!!!!!1 20 years this has been a problem!!!
Pippen can say "Phil has to go", but its rooted in sympathy for Melo. You know, Melo is 33 and replacing Phil won't change that.