Knicks · Brandon Jennings: Carmelo Anthony trade talks 'took a toll' on Knicks.. (page 2)

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Melo was put on the "block" January 20 or so
Knicks record at that time was already a few games under .500
The Knicks began to lose and that's when Phil asks melo about wanting to stay a knick or not

That said yes it was a distraction no doubt

But the losing already was going on. Team was imploding on the court before Melo trade talk.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:Jennings: "Willy is the next Marc Gasol"

Jennings: "I’m in the same position I was in New York... with a team that actually plays together."

Jennings says lots of things.

That being said you can see the agenda driven holfresh thinking. Chicken and the egg.. if Melo played better think there are any trade discussions? When you are the star player, the team isnt playing well and you are among career lows in points, rebs, assists and FG% you are going to hear trade trade rumors. Thats how pro sports works.

Hey holfresh... if you suck at your job your probably going to get fired. If you get fired its because you suck, not because the impending doom of being fired hurt your performance.

You've quoted Jennings say Willy is Marc Gasol jr. like ten times on this board as proof that Willy was legit.

But now when Jennings says something you don't like "he may have an agenda".

Anyone who watched the team saw the effect Phil had on Melo as soon as Phil did his thing in mid-December. Team was 14-10, Knicks were in LA and Melo met with Phil. Melo was clearly pissed after the meeting. The team is 16-40 since the meeting. As the trade talk got louder and the Rosen columns dropped, so did the Knicks defensive effort.

For someone whose all about "trust" and "team play" and "culture" Phil sure doesn't hold himself to those standards. He's a massive failure on the culture front here. People here are rolling around with delight that the Knicks only lost by 3 to a Washington team that clearly gave zero fucks last night - because they knew they didn't have to be engaged to beat us. They could've beaten us by 40pts if they wanted to. When it was close in the final two minutes, Wall just calmly drove down the lane for a WIDE OPEN DUNK.

I saw some sad posts saying Baker outplayed John Wall. Dear god, it's sad. Wall was taking the night off, while on the court. It was an exhibition game for Washington.

exactly. Its just a quote. I dont think Willy is legit because Jennings says he is. I think he's legit for about 40 other reasons. I posted the Willy quote for the exact reason you called me out. Holfresh would never acknowledge Willy's potential. Phil draft someone good in round 2? Naaaaahhh... but if Jennings said Phil phucked things up lets start a thread.

Phil camp. Thats me. Tent is up and the fire is on. Come have some 11 ring chili. It may be slow to cook but history shows its a good recipe. I think you have been eating a brand that has left a bad taste in your mouth. As for Phil if he keeps turning this thing over and drafting well while he figures out how to get the type of players in he wants to build around fine. Back into a rebuild? OK. Horrible Noah signing? Sure. Pump up the volume. Willing to be patient with a guy like Phil vs. a like Melo? Ill take Phil. Ive seen Melo's brand for 7 years. Im ready to let Phil fumble around until he finds the right mix.

So yea. Phil camp.

Well, unless Phil has plans to re-up another five years and do this til he's 80, he's only got two years left before Dolan brings Isiah back. I'm sure the Knicks will be really great once Melo is gone! What have we won in the last 16 years with Melo anyway?

it would be hard to imagine Isiah. I would assume if Phil doesnt re-up in some capacity that Mills would take it over, or possible Houston. Maybe they promote Gaines in some capacity to keep him around. Maybe Phil takes a 2-3 year extension.

Here's the thing... Phil doesnt trade picks and has drafted well. I fully recognize that the Phil era may simply be a house cleaning. 4-5 years of losing seasons, Melo drama, Dolan cussing at fans... but during that stretch of losing we build up a sustainable young base of quality talent. IF we do nothing but more of same while adding some high end draft talent than when Phil leaves we will have a flexible roster loaded with young talent. I can live with that. I see that as the downside. The upside is he gets the guys together that he envisioned when took this job, we play system basketball and are built around a foundation of young talent led by KP. I am willing to wait and see. Thats really all I am saying. The Phil camp response is tongue and cheek as for some reason some really need to establish factions.

What you guys fail to acknowledge again and again and again and again and again - PHIL COULD NOT TRADE THE PICKS.

The 2015 pick could NOT be traded until the draft day.

The 2017 pick COULD NOT BE TRADED until draft day.

The earliest pick he could ever trade was 2018 from the day he took the job. And guess what, he tried to offer it for at least Jeff Teague back in 2015, but Atlanta wasn't interested because it was too far out.

He drafted Jerian Grant and traded him less than a year later. Does that count as trading a pick? He traded his only young chip at the time, Tim Hardaway Jr to get Grant.

I guess I'm just a jaded old Knicks fan at this point, but I'm pretty tired of the entire dysfunctional organization being blamed on one player. At this point I really really really cannot fucking wait for Melo to be traded. Because guess what? Then Phil has no excuses left.

Phil could have trade the KP pick. Orlando would have offered their pick and Olidepo as they did for Ibaka. Orlando absolutely coveted KP and tried to get him the year before.

Also Phil certainly could have used KP himself (or Willy perhaps) to bolster to roster around Melo and he did not.

You can be jaded and frustrated. I am not the guy who is going to defend Phil from anything from what I see. But if you think Phil hasnt been active in getting younger and building a pipeline from DAY ONE than you just havent been paying attention. All I am saying is Phil has been very active in bringing in young talent to look at. We see young fringe talent blossom and help teams all the time but in the past never commited to developing those types of players. That is happening as well.

If you need to tell yourself that everything Phil does is terrible and he's got no clue have at it. I dont see it that and I have stated my reasons. We had 5 rookies on the roster and added more later. Did Phil make moves to win now that failed? Sure did. Do we have young players to develop and evaluate instead? Sure do. Im ok with seeing this through.

The young talent he's brought in outside of KP and maybe Willy is mediocre and not rotation caliber for a playoffs team. Last year at this time Langston Galloway and Jerian Grant were great young triangle guards... or so we were told. Now it's Baker and Randle. Don't stop believing. Hold on to that feeeeling.

Tim Hardaway Jr is a better young guard than any guard Phil has brought in.

Most of the hot young players Phil has brought in are shooting under 40% from the field. I'm sorry, man. None of these guys outside of KP and maybe Willy will be on the team in three years. Tim Hardaway will still be starting for the Hawks though.

Phil gave up on THJ early. That happens with players all the time. It's not the end of the world tho. I think Phil has his views on what he wants to see in players and didn't feel THJ fit. Phil is going to have more options to bring in young players this summer so the THJ thing isn't that big of a deal in the long run.

No one said Langston was great. Perhaps as a UDFA he surprised people but that's relative. Grant was a Phil pick and he admits he wasn't quite what he expected. Judging prospects isn't an exact science and you're going to have hits and misses.

Baker is a good prospect. He's getting better and better. I think Randle also has a chance to stick but it's still early in the process since these guys have only recently gotten any substantial playing time.

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

nyknickzingis wrote:This would be all fine and dandy if the losing happened after the Melo trade talks

Melo was put on the "block" January 20 or so
Knicks record at that time was already a few games under .500
The Knicks began to lose and that's when Phil asks melo about wanting to stay a knick or not

That said yes it was a distraction no doubt

But the losing already was going on. Team was imploding on the court before Melo trade talk.

Phil publicly slagged Melo and it got enough media attention that they met when the team was in LA in mid-December. These are facts. I know Phil and facts go together about as well as Trump and facts, but sorry they are facts.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:Jennings: "Willy is the next Marc Gasol"

Jennings: "I’m in the same position I was in New York... with a team that actually plays together."

Jennings says lots of things.

That being said you can see the agenda driven holfresh thinking. Chicken and the egg.. if Melo played better think there are any trade discussions? When you are the star player, the team isnt playing well and you are among career lows in points, rebs, assists and FG% you are going to hear trade trade rumors. Thats how pro sports works.

Hey holfresh... if you suck at your job your probably going to get fired. If you get fired its because you suck, not because the impending doom of being fired hurt your performance.

You've quoted Jennings say Willy is Marc Gasol jr. like ten times on this board as proof that Willy was legit.

But now when Jennings says something you don't like "he may have an agenda".

Anyone who watched the team saw the effect Phil had on Melo as soon as Phil did his thing in mid-December. Team was 14-10, Knicks were in LA and Melo met with Phil. Melo was clearly pissed after the meeting. The team is 16-40 since the meeting. As the trade talk got louder and the Rosen columns dropped, so did the Knicks defensive effort.

For someone whose all about "trust" and "team play" and "culture" Phil sure doesn't hold himself to those standards. He's a massive failure on the culture front here. People here are rolling around with delight that the Knicks only lost by 3 to a Washington team that clearly gave zero fucks last night - because they knew they didn't have to be engaged to beat us. They could've beaten us by 40pts if they wanted to. When it was close in the final two minutes, Wall just calmly drove down the lane for a WIDE OPEN DUNK.

I saw some sad posts saying Baker outplayed John Wall. Dear god, it's sad. Wall was taking the night off, while on the court. It was an exhibition game for Washington.

exactly. Its just a quote. I dont think Willy is legit because Jennings says he is. I think he's legit for about 40 other reasons. I posted the Willy quote for the exact reason you called me out. Holfresh would never acknowledge Willy's potential. Phil draft someone good in round 2? Naaaaahhh... but if Jennings said Phil phucked things up lets start a thread.

Phil camp. Thats me. Tent is up and the fire is on. Come have some 11 ring chili. It may be slow to cook but history shows its a good recipe. I think you have been eating a brand that has left a bad taste in your mouth. As for Phil if he keeps turning this thing over and drafting well while he figures out how to get the type of players in he wants to build around fine. Back into a rebuild? OK. Horrible Noah signing? Sure. Pump up the volume. Willing to be patient with a guy like Phil vs. a like Melo? Ill take Phil. Ive seen Melo's brand for 7 years. Im ready to let Phil fumble around until he finds the right mix.

So yea. Phil camp.

Well, unless Phil has plans to re-up another five years and do this til he's 80, he's only got two years left before Dolan brings Isiah back. I'm sure the Knicks will be really great once Melo is gone! What have we won in the last 16 years with Melo anyway?

it would be hard to imagine Isiah. I would assume if Phil doesnt re-up in some capacity that Mills would take it over, or possible Houston. Maybe they promote Gaines in some capacity to keep him around. Maybe Phil takes a 2-3 year extension.

Here's the thing... Phil doesnt trade picks and has drafted well. I fully recognize that the Phil era may simply be a house cleaning. 4-5 years of losing seasons, Melo drama, Dolan cussing at fans... but during that stretch of losing we build up a sustainable young base of quality talent. IF we do nothing but more of same while adding some high end draft talent than when Phil leaves we will have a flexible roster loaded with young talent. I can live with that. I see that as the downside. The upside is he gets the guys together that he envisioned when took this job, we play system basketball and are built around a foundation of young talent led by KP. I am willing to wait and see. Thats really all I am saying. The Phil camp response is tongue and cheek as for some reason some really need to establish factions.

What you guys fail to acknowledge again and again and again and again and again - PHIL COULD NOT TRADE THE PICKS.

The 2015 pick could NOT be traded until the draft day.

The 2017 pick COULD NOT BE TRADED until draft day.

The earliest pick he could ever trade was 2018 from the day he took the job. And guess what, he tried to offer it for at least Jeff Teague back in 2015, but Atlanta wasn't interested because it was too far out.

He drafted Jerian Grant and traded him less than a year later. Does that count as trading a pick? He traded his only young chip at the time, Tim Hardaway Jr to get Grant.

I guess I'm just a jaded old Knicks fan at this point, but I'm pretty tired of the entire dysfunctional organization being blamed on one player. At this point I really really really cannot fucking wait for Melo to be traded. Because guess what? Then Phil has no excuses left.

Phil could have trade the KP pick. Orlando would have offered their pick and Olidepo as they did for Ibaka. Orlando absolutely coveted KP and tried to get him the year before.

Also Phil certainly could have used KP himself (or Willy perhaps) to bolster to roster around Melo and he did not.

You can be jaded and frustrated. I am not the guy who is going to defend Phil from anything from what I see. But if you think Phil hasnt been active in getting younger and building a pipeline from DAY ONE than you just havent been paying attention. All I am saying is Phil has been very active in bringing in young talent to look at. We see young fringe talent blossom and help teams all the time but in the past never commited to developing those types of players. That is happening as well.

If you need to tell yourself that everything Phil does is terrible and he's got no clue have at it. I dont see it that and I have stated my reasons. We had 5 rookies on the roster and added more later. Did Phil make moves to win now that failed? Sure did. Do we have young players to develop and evaluate instead? Sure do. Im ok with seeing this through.

The young talent he's brought in outside of KP and maybe Willy is mediocre and not rotation caliber for a playoffs team. Last year at this time Langston Galloway and Jerian Grant were great young triangle guards... or so we were told. Now it's Baker and Randle. Don't stop believing. Hold on to that feeeeling.

Tim Hardaway Jr is a better young guard than any guard Phil has brought in.

Most of the hot young players Phil has brought in are shooting under 40% from the field. I'm sorry, man. None of these guys outside of KP and maybe Willy will be on the team in three years. Tim Hardaway will still be starting for the Hawks though.

Pretty sure you like the Grant trade at the time. I liked it as well. Pretty revisionist. But hey.. you are frustrated with Phil right now so its not exactly like your looking very hard for things he may have done right.

Your angry. I get it.

Good teams take years to build. They take good young cores of players playing together to work. If Hardaway Jr is the guy you cant stomach as the one that got away we are going OK. How do you think the Kings feel having had Whiteside AND Isiah Thomas?

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:Jennings: "Willy is the next Marc Gasol"

Jennings: "I’m in the same position I was in New York... with a team that actually plays together."

Jennings says lots of things.

That being said you can see the agenda driven holfresh thinking. Chicken and the egg.. if Melo played better think there are any trade discussions? When you are the star player, the team isnt playing well and you are among career lows in points, rebs, assists and FG% you are going to hear trade trade rumors. Thats how pro sports works.

Hey holfresh... if you suck at your job your probably going to get fired. If you get fired its because you suck, not because the impending doom of being fired hurt your performance.

You've quoted Jennings say Willy is Marc Gasol jr. like ten times on this board as proof that Willy was legit.

But now when Jennings says something you don't like "he may have an agenda".

Anyone who watched the team saw the effect Phil had on Melo as soon as Phil did his thing in mid-December. Team was 14-10, Knicks were in LA and Melo met with Phil. Melo was clearly pissed after the meeting. The team is 16-40 since the meeting. As the trade talk got louder and the Rosen columns dropped, so did the Knicks defensive effort.

For someone whose all about "trust" and "team play" and "culture" Phil sure doesn't hold himself to those standards. He's a massive failure on the culture front here. People here are rolling around with delight that the Knicks only lost by 3 to a Washington team that clearly gave zero fucks last night - because they knew they didn't have to be engaged to beat us. They could've beaten us by 40pts if they wanted to. When it was close in the final two minutes, Wall just calmly drove down the lane for a WIDE OPEN DUNK.

I saw some sad posts saying Baker outplayed John Wall. Dear god, it's sad. Wall was taking the night off, while on the court. It was an exhibition game for Washington.

exactly. Its just a quote. I dont think Willy is legit because Jennings says he is. I think he's legit for about 40 other reasons. I posted the Willy quote for the exact reason you called me out. Holfresh would never acknowledge Willy's potential. Phil draft someone good in round 2? Naaaaahhh... but if Jennings said Phil phucked things up lets start a thread.

Phil camp. Thats me. Tent is up and the fire is on. Come have some 11 ring chili. It may be slow to cook but history shows its a good recipe. I think you have been eating a brand that has left a bad taste in your mouth. As for Phil if he keeps turning this thing over and drafting well while he figures out how to get the type of players in he wants to build around fine. Back into a rebuild? OK. Horrible Noah signing? Sure. Pump up the volume. Willing to be patient with a guy like Phil vs. a like Melo? Ill take Phil. Ive seen Melo's brand for 7 years. Im ready to let Phil fumble around until he finds the right mix.

So yea. Phil camp.

Well, unless Phil has plans to re-up another five years and do this til he's 80, he's only got two years left before Dolan brings Isiah back. I'm sure the Knicks will be really great once Melo is gone! What have we won in the last 16 years with Melo anyway?

it would be hard to imagine Isiah. I would assume if Phil doesnt re-up in some capacity that Mills would take it over, or possible Houston. Maybe they promote Gaines in some capacity to keep him around. Maybe Phil takes a 2-3 year extension.

Here's the thing... Phil doesnt trade picks and has drafted well. I fully recognize that the Phil era may simply be a house cleaning. 4-5 years of losing seasons, Melo drama, Dolan cussing at fans... but during that stretch of losing we build up a sustainable young base of quality talent. IF we do nothing but more of same while adding some high end draft talent than when Phil leaves we will have a flexible roster loaded with young talent. I can live with that. I see that as the downside. The upside is he gets the guys together that he envisioned when took this job, we play system basketball and are built around a foundation of young talent led by KP. I am willing to wait and see. Thats really all I am saying. The Phil camp response is tongue and cheek as for some reason some really need to establish factions.

What you guys fail to acknowledge again and again and again and again and again - PHIL COULD NOT TRADE THE PICKS.

The 2015 pick could NOT be traded until the draft day.

The 2017 pick COULD NOT BE TRADED until draft day.

The earliest pick he could ever trade was 2018 from the day he took the job. And guess what, he tried to offer it for at least Jeff Teague back in 2015, but Atlanta wasn't interested because it was too far out.

He drafted Jerian Grant and traded him less than a year later. Does that count as trading a pick? He traded his only young chip at the time, Tim Hardaway Jr to get Grant.

I guess I'm just a jaded old Knicks fan at this point, but I'm pretty tired of the entire dysfunctional organization being blamed on one player. At this point I really really really cannot fucking wait for Melo to be traded. Because guess what? Then Phil has no excuses left.

Phil could have trade the KP pick. Orlando would have offered their pick and Olidepo as they did for Ibaka. Orlando absolutely coveted KP and tried to get him the year before.

Also Phil certainly could have used KP himself (or Willy perhaps) to bolster to roster around Melo and he did not.

You can be jaded and frustrated. I am not the guy who is going to defend Phil from anything from what I see. But if you think Phil hasnt been active in getting younger and building a pipeline from DAY ONE than you just havent been paying attention. All I am saying is Phil has been very active in bringing in young talent to look at. We see young fringe talent blossom and help teams all the time but in the past never commited to developing those types of players. That is happening as well.

If you need to tell yourself that everything Phil does is terrible and he's got no clue have at it. I dont see it that and I have stated my reasons. We had 5 rookies on the roster and added more later. Did Phil make moves to win now that failed? Sure did. Do we have young players to develop and evaluate instead? Sure do. Im ok with seeing this through.

The young talent he's brought in outside of KP and maybe Willy is mediocre and not rotation caliber for a playoffs team. Last year at this time Langston Galloway and Jerian Grant were great young triangle guards... or so we were told. Now it's Baker and Randle. Don't stop believing. Hold on to that feeeeling.

Tim Hardaway Jr is a better young guard than any guard Phil has brought in.

Most of the hot young players Phil has brought in are shooting under 40% from the field. I'm sorry, man. None of these guys outside of KP and maybe Willy will be on the team in three years. Tim Hardaway will still be starting for the Hawks though.

He's had one first rounder. Lets kill the Nets for adding low end talent as well.

Pretty sure you like the Grant trade at the time. I liked it as well. Pretty revisionist. But hey.. you are frustrated with Phil right now so its not exactly like your looking very hard for things he may have done right.

Your angry. I get it.

Good teams take years to build. They take good young cores of players playing together to work. If Hardaway Jr is the guy you cant stomach as the one that got away we are going OK. How do you think the Kings feel having had Whiteside AND Isiah Thomas?

Again - Jerian Grant counts as a first round pick he had. He gave up a significant piece for him. I would have been okay with the trade if he kept Jerian and developed him. Instead he cuts bait less than a year later.

You're absolutely right good teams take time to build. Resetting every year makes it impossible. Giving up on young players after a year as he did with Hardaway and Grant and Shved, makes it impossible.

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Maybe we should revisit Jose the Melo contract as well? It seems your not getting enough of what your looking for.

nyknickzingis wrote:This would be all fine and dandy if the losing happened after the Melo trade talks

Melo was put on the "block" January 20 or so
Knicks record at that time was already a few games under .500
The Knicks began to lose and that's when Phil asks melo about wanting to stay a knick or not

That said yes it was a distraction no doubt

But the losing already was going on. Team was imploding on the court before Melo trade talk.

B-Jennings proved to be a complete fool and an overrated piece of hot garbage.

Lets get some talented young players who rill work hard, run the system and play together -- out with the old trash and in with the new team and team players.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Don't expect too many responses from Team Phil on this one.

what does that make you and holfresh? Team Melo and Team Isiah?

I see anyone defending Melo at this point and that = ZERO BASKETBALL IQ.

Melo has been a plague on the Knicks and they are bad enough without him.

EnySpree wrote:I call bullshit cuz Melo has a no trade clause. No pressure on him to be traded. All the talks about pressure is garbage too. If it's too much then get the fuck out. Go somewhere you don't have to worry about pressure... like the local ymca.... tired of this garbage

Poor Melo.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:Jennings: "Willy is the next Marc Gasol"

Jennings: "I’m in the same position I was in New York... with a team that actually plays together."

Jennings says lots of things.

That being said you can see the agenda driven holfresh thinking. Chicken and the egg.. if Melo played better think there are any trade discussions? When you are the star player, the team isnt playing well and you are among career lows in points, rebs, assists and FG% you are going to hear trade trade rumors. Thats how pro sports works.

Hey holfresh... if you suck at your job your probably going to get fired. If you get fired its because you suck, not because the impending doom of being fired hurt your performance.

You've quoted Jennings say Willy is Marc Gasol jr. like ten times on this board as proof that Willy was legit.

But now when Jennings says something you don't like "he may have an agenda".

Anyone who watched the team saw the effect Phil had on Melo as soon as Phil did his thing in mid-December. Team was 14-10, Knicks were in LA and Melo met with Phil. Melo was clearly pissed after the meeting. The team is 16-40 since the meeting. As the trade talk got louder and the Rosen columns dropped, so did the Knicks defensive effort.

For someone whose all about "trust" and "team play" and "culture" Phil sure doesn't hold himself to those standards. He's a massive failure on the culture front here. People here are rolling around with delight that the Knicks only lost by 3 to a Washington team that clearly gave zero fucks last night - because they knew they didn't have to be engaged to beat us. They could've beaten us by 40pts if they wanted to. When it was close in the final two minutes, Wall just calmly drove down the lane for a WIDE OPEN DUNK.

I saw some sad posts saying Baker outplayed John Wall. Dear god, it's sad. Wall was taking the night off, while on the court. It was an exhibition game for Washington.

exactly. Its just a quote. I dont think Willy is legit because Jennings says he is. I think he's legit for about 40 other reasons. I posted the Willy quote for the exact reason you called me out. Holfresh would never acknowledge Willy's potential. Phil draft someone good in round 2? Naaaaahhh... but if Jennings said Phil phucked things up lets start a thread.

Phil camp. Thats me. Tent is up and the fire is on. Come have some 11 ring chili. It may be slow to cook but history shows its a good recipe. I think you have been eating a brand that has left a bad taste in your mouth. As for Phil if he keeps turning this thing over and drafting well while he figures out how to get the type of players in he wants to build around fine. Back into a rebuild? OK. Horrible Noah signing? Sure. Pump up the volume. Willing to be patient with a guy like Phil vs. a like Melo? Ill take Phil. Ive seen Melo's brand for 7 years. Im ready to let Phil fumble around until he finds the right mix.

So yea. Phil camp.

Well, unless Phil has plans to re-up another five years and do this til he's 80, he's only got two years left before Dolan brings Isiah back. I'm sure the Knicks will be really great once Melo is gone! What have we won in the last 16 years with Melo anyway?

it would be hard to imagine Isiah. I would assume if Phil doesnt re-up in some capacity that Mills would take it over, or possible Houston. Maybe they promote Gaines in some capacity to keep him around. Maybe Phil takes a 2-3 year extension.

Here's the thing... Phil doesnt trade picks and has drafted well. I fully recognize that the Phil era may simply be a house cleaning. 4-5 years of losing seasons, Melo drama, Dolan cussing at fans... but during that stretch of losing we build up a sustainable young base of quality talent. IF we do nothing but more of same while adding some high end draft talent than when Phil leaves we will have a flexible roster loaded with young talent. I can live with that. I see that as the downside. The upside is he gets the guys together that he envisioned when took this job, we play system basketball and are built around a foundation of young talent led by KP. I am willing to wait and see. Thats really all I am saying. The Phil camp response is tongue and cheek as for some reason some really need to establish factions.

What you guys fail to acknowledge again and again and again and again and again - PHIL COULD NOT TRADE THE PICKS.

The 2015 pick could NOT be traded until the draft day.

The 2017 pick COULD NOT BE TRADED until draft day.

The earliest pick he could ever trade was 2018 from the day he took the job. And guess what, he tried to offer it for at least Jeff Teague back in 2015, but Atlanta wasn't interested because it was too far out.

He drafted Jerian Grant and traded him less than a year later. Does that count as trading a pick? He traded his only young chip at the time, Tim Hardaway Jr to get Grant.

I guess I'm just a jaded old Knicks fan at this point, but I'm pretty tired of the entire dysfunctional organization being blamed on one player. At this point I really really really cannot fucking wait for Melo to be traded. Because guess what? Then Phil has no excuses left.

Phil could have trade the KP pick. Orlando would have offered their pick and Olidepo as they did for Ibaka. Orlando absolutely coveted KP and tried to get him the year before.

Also Phil certainly could have used KP himself (or Willy perhaps) to bolster to roster around Melo and he did not.

You can be jaded and frustrated. I am not the guy who is going to defend Phil from anything from what I see. But if you think Phil hasnt been active in getting younger and building a pipeline from DAY ONE than you just havent been paying attention. All I am saying is Phil has been very active in bringing in young talent to look at. We see young fringe talent blossom and help teams all the time but in the past never commited to developing those types of players. That is happening as well.

If you need to tell yourself that everything Phil does is terrible and he's got no clue have at it. I dont see it that and I have stated my reasons. We had 5 rookies on the roster and added more later. Did Phil make moves to win now that failed? Sure did. Do we have young players to develop and evaluate instead? Sure do. Im ok with seeing this through.

The young talent he's brought in outside of KP and maybe Willy is mediocre and not rotation caliber for a playoffs team. Last year at this time Langston Galloway and Jerian Grant were great young triangle guards... or so we were told. Now it's Baker and Randle. Don't stop believing. Hold on to that feeeeling.

Tim Hardaway Jr is a better young guard than any guard Phil has brought in.

Most of the hot young players Phil has brought in are shooting under 40% from the field. I'm sorry, man. None of these guys outside of KP and maybe Willy will be on the team in three years. Tim Hardaway will still be starting for the Hawks though.

He's had one first rounder. Lets kill the Nets for adding low end talent as well.

Pretty sure you like the Grant trade at the time. I liked it as well. Pretty revisionist. But hey.. you are frustrated with Phil right now so its not exactly like your looking very hard for things he may have done right.

Your angry. I get it.

Good teams take years to build. They take good young cores of players playing together to work. If Hardaway Jr is the guy you cant stomach as the one that got away we are going OK. How do you think the Kings feel having had Whiteside AND Isiah Thomas?

Again - Jerian Grant counts as a first round pick he had. He gave up a significant piece for him. I would have been okay with the trade if he kept Jerian and developed him. Instead he cuts bait less than a year later.

You're absolutely right good teams take time to build. Resetting every year makes it impossible. Giving up on young players after a year as he did with Hardaway and Grant and Shved, makes it impossible.

Let me know when you are feeling better.

Go buy a piece of candy or something to take the shitty taste out of your mouth. This is getting pretty lame.

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Yep Hardaway is a REAL STUD --- we missed out on 5 championships when we traded him.

EnySpree wrote:I call bullshit cuz Melo has a no trade clause. No pressure on him to be traded. All the talks about pressure is garbage too. If it's too much then get the fuck out. Go somewhere you don't have to worry about pressure... like the local ymca.... tired of this garbage

Perfect response to Jennings. What possible angst could Melo have suffered? NTC in hand.

He's been in NY how long and believes the press when they claim Rosen speaks for Phil? I don't believe Melo is dumb, let alone, THAT dumb.

Look I think Melo sincerely wants to win here but expects it to be handed to him without doing the hard work. And the hard work is not putting up empty stats but becoming a two way player, getting with the system and taking no prisoners for teammates who aren't doing the same, AND playing your best ball even if somebody thinks you stink. THAT's what he got paid to do and was malfeasant in delivering.

As for Jennings, did he even get a High School diploma? The press interviews this clueless kid who's F'n up his career every chance he gets as if we're talking to a player who actually knows what a college campus looks like.

And really, who on the Knicks with a BBIQ was depressed at the prospect of Melo getting traded? Maybe Porzingus because he's still wet behind the ears but c'mon...

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

this just trolling. No different than Briggs starting a Seth Curry thread after every good game. Hardaway is having a good year. He was also shooting like 38% when he was traded for a PG prospect. But yea... Phil failed to recognize this. Fire him. Ive seen enough.

Maybe we should revisit Jose the Melo contract as well? It seems your not getting enough of what your looking for.

Hey, I was responding specifically to you saying "maybe you can't see the pipeline of young talent Phil is assembling here".

Those other things happened too. Jose and Melo are more examples of how bad Phil has been. But I was limiting it to the "young talent pipeline".

I didn't even mention Cleanthony and Thanasis.

LivingLegend wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Yep Hardaway is a REAL STUD --- we missed out on 5 championships when we traded him.

Don't think I said that. Building a team requires patience, the ability to build up a player, and some luck. Don't the same people who praise Phil here for patience for young talent kill Isiah for giving up on Channing Frye and Trevor Ariza? Well, I killed Isiah for giving up on Frye and Ariza and I'll kill Phil for every good young player he gives away, too.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

this just trolling. No different than Briggs starting a Seth Curry thread after every good game. Hardaway is having a good year. He was also shooting like 38% when he was traded for a PG prospect. But yea... Phil failed to recognize this. Fire him. Ive seen enough.

Maybe we should revisit Jose the Melo contract as well? It seems your not getting enough of what your looking for.

Hey, I was responding specifically to you saying "maybe you can't see the pipeline of young talent Phil is assembling here".

Those other things happened too. Jose and Melo are more examples of how bad Phil has been. But I was limiting it to the "young talent pipeline".

I didn't even mention Cleanthony and Thanasis.

But if you think Phil hasnt been active in getting younger and building a pipeline from DAY ONE than you just havent been paying attention. All I am saying is Phil has been very active in bringing in young talent to look at. We see young fringe talent blossom and help teams all the time but in the past never commited to developing those types of players. That is happening as well.

See? This is emotional posting 101. Look at my quote. I say he's working harder than any previous FOs to get younger, build, bring in and evaluate young talent.

You hear: "look at all these great players he's bringing in."

You are on tilt.

I didn't even mention Cleanthony and Thanasis.

Should we go back a couple years and get your take on the Grant/THjr trade?