Knicks · Brandon Jennings: Carmelo Anthony trade talks 'took a toll' on Knicks.. (page 3)

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

this just trolling. No different than Briggs starting a Seth Curry thread after every good game. Hardaway is having a good year. He was also shooting like 38% when he was traded for a PG prospect. But yea... Phil failed to recognize this. Fire him. Ive seen enough.

Maybe we should revisit Jose the Melo contract as well? It seems your not getting enough of what your looking for.

Hey, I was responding specifically to you saying "maybe you can't see the pipeline of young talent Phil is assembling here".

Those other things happened too. Jose and Melo are more examples of how bad Phil has been. But I was limiting it to the "young talent pipeline".

I didn't even mention Cleanthony and Thanasis.

But if you think Phil hasnt been active in getting younger and building a pipeline from DAY ONE than you just havent been paying attention. All I am saying is Phil has been very active in bringing in young talent to look at. We see young fringe talent blossom and help teams all the time but in the past never commited to developing those types of players. That is happening as well.

See? This is emotional posting 101. Look at my quote. I say he's working harder than any previous FOs to get younger, build, bring in and evaluate young talent.

You hear: "look at all these great players he's bringing in."

You are on tilt.

I didn't even mention Cleanthony and Thanasis.

Should we go back a couple years and get your take on the Grant/THjr trade?

fishmike wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:This would be all fine and dandy if the losing happened after the Melo trade talks

Melo was put on the "block" January 20 or so
Knicks record at that time was already a few games under .500
The Knicks began to lose and that's when Phil asks melo about wanting to stay a knick or not

That said yes it was a distraction no doubt

But the losing already was going on. Team was imploding on the court before Melo trade talk.

trade talks happened because Melo was having a shit year and quit again. Tri-angle? MY-angle.

Trade talks happen on every team that has a star player on decline whose team is not doing well
Once the team didn't meet expectations Phil did the right thing putting Melo on the block
He did the wrong thing in not being direct with Melo or tweeting about articles taking shots at Melo

But Melo has been a real down side to this team and franchise as the man
Knicks need a new leader or to move Melo to a situation where he does not have to lead.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:Jennings: "Willy is the next Marc Gasol"

Jennings: "I’m in the same position I was in New York... with a team that actually plays together."

Jennings says lots of things.

That being said you can see the agenda driven holfresh thinking. Chicken and the egg.. if Melo played better think there are any trade discussions? When you are the star player, the team isnt playing well and you are among career lows in points, rebs, assists and FG% you are going to hear trade trade rumors. Thats how pro sports works.

Hey holfresh... if you suck at your job your probably going to get fired. If you get fired its because you suck, not because the impending doom of being fired hurt your performance.

You've quoted Jennings say Willy is Marc Gasol jr. like ten times on this board as proof that Willy was legit.

But now when Jennings says something you don't like "he may have an agenda".

Anyone who watched the team saw the effect Phil had on Melo as soon as Phil did his thing in mid-December. Team was 14-10, Knicks were in LA and Melo met with Phil. Melo was clearly pissed after the meeting. The team is 16-40 since the meeting. As the trade talk got louder and the Rosen columns dropped, so did the Knicks defensive effort.

For someone whose all about "trust" and "team play" and "culture" Phil sure doesn't hold himself to those standards. He's a massive failure on the culture front here. People here are rolling around with delight that the Knicks only lost by 3 to a Washington team that clearly gave zero fucks last night - because they knew they didn't have to be engaged to beat us. They could've beaten us by 40pts if they wanted to. When it was close in the final two minutes, Wall just calmly drove down the lane for a WIDE OPEN DUNK.

I saw some sad posts saying Baker outplayed John Wall. Dear god, it's sad. Wall was taking the night off, while on the court. It was an exhibition game for Washington.

exactly. Its just a quote. I dont think Willy is legit because Jennings says he is. I think he's legit for about 40 other reasons. I posted the Willy quote for the exact reason you called me out. Holfresh would never acknowledge Willy's potential. Phil draft someone good in round 2? Naaaaahhh... but if Jennings said Phil phucked things up lets start a thread.

Phil camp. Thats me. Tent is up and the fire is on. Come have some 11 ring chili. It may be slow to cook but history shows its a good recipe. I think you have been eating a brand that has left a bad taste in your mouth. As for Phil if he keeps turning this thing over and drafting well while he figures out how to get the type of players in he wants to build around fine. Back into a rebuild? OK. Horrible Noah signing? Sure. Pump up the volume. Willing to be patient with a guy like Phil vs. a like Melo? Ill take Phil. Ive seen Melo's brand for 7 years. Im ready to let Phil fumble around until he finds the right mix.

So yea. Phil camp.

When do you draw the line and say enough is enough for phil, maybe after 7 non playoff seasons.

Enough is enough the minute you all want Dolan back in charge.

How stupid can Knicks fans get? Jackson is trusted by Dolan and Dolan has said so. You can hate on that all you like but Jackson has BB cred nobody else [who might be coming here] has. Phil will get an extension and deservedly so. The organization is far better off than its been in years despite some necessary and inevitable losing that would have happened anyway.

Want a winner? Follow the UConn women who play one or two competitive games a year and sweep everyone else. You'll always feel happy.

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:Jennings: "Willy is the next Marc Gasol"

Jennings: "I’m in the same position I was in New York... with a team that actually plays together."

Jennings says lots of things.

That being said you can see the agenda driven holfresh thinking. Chicken and the egg.. if Melo played better think there are any trade discussions? When you are the star player, the team isnt playing well and you are among career lows in points, rebs, assists and FG% you are going to hear trade trade rumors. Thats how pro sports works.

Hey holfresh... if you suck at your job your probably going to get fired. If you get fired its because you suck, not because the impending doom of being fired hurt your performance.

You've quoted Jennings say Willy is Marc Gasol jr. like ten times on this board as proof that Willy was legit.

But now when Jennings says something you don't like "he may have an agenda".

Anyone who watched the team saw the effect Phil had on Melo as soon as Phil did his thing in mid-December. Team was 14-10, Knicks were in LA and Melo met with Phil. Melo was clearly pissed after the meeting. The team is 16-40 since the meeting. As the trade talk got louder and the Rosen columns dropped, so did the Knicks defensive effort.

For someone whose all about "trust" and "team play" and "culture" Phil sure doesn't hold himself to those standards. He's a massive failure on the culture front here. People here are rolling around with delight that the Knicks only lost by 3 to a Washington team that clearly gave zero fucks last night - because they knew they didn't have to be engaged to beat us. They could've beaten us by 40pts if they wanted to. When it was close in the final two minutes, Wall just calmly drove down the lane for a WIDE OPEN DUNK.

I saw some sad posts saying Baker outplayed John Wall. Dear god, it's sad. Wall was taking the night off, while on the court. It was an exhibition game for Washington.

exactly. Its just a quote. I dont think Willy is legit because Jennings says he is. I think he's legit for about 40 other reasons. I posted the Willy quote for the exact reason you called me out. Holfresh would never acknowledge Willy's potential. Phil draft someone good in round 2? Naaaaahhh... but if Jennings said Phil phucked things up lets start a thread.

Phil camp. Thats me. Tent is up and the fire is on. Come have some 11 ring chili. It may be slow to cook but history shows its a good recipe. I think you have been eating a brand that has left a bad taste in your mouth. As for Phil if he keeps turning this thing over and drafting well while he figures out how to get the type of players in he wants to build around fine. Back into a rebuild? OK. Horrible Noah signing? Sure. Pump up the volume. Willing to be patient with a guy like Phil vs. a like Melo? Ill take Phil. Ive seen Melo's brand for 7 years. Im ready to let Phil fumble around until he finds the right mix.

So yea. Phil camp.

Well, unless Phil has plans to re-up another five years and do this til he's 80, he's only got two years left before Dolan brings Isiah back. I'm sure the Knicks will be really great once Melo is gone! What have we won in the last 16 years with Melo anyway?

it would be hard to imagine Isiah. I would assume if Phil doesnt re-up in some capacity that Mills would take it over, or possible Houston. Maybe they promote Gaines in some capacity to keep him around. Maybe Phil takes a 2-3 year extension.

Here's the thing... Phil doesnt trade picks and has drafted well. I fully recognize that the Phil era may simply be a house cleaning. 4-5 years of losing seasons, Melo drama, Dolan cussing at fans... but during that stretch of losing we build up a sustainable young base of quality talent. IF we do nothing but more of same while adding some high end draft talent than when Phil leaves we will have a flexible roster loaded with young talent. I can live with that. I see that as the downside. The upside is he gets the guys together that he envisioned when took this job, we play system basketball and are built around a foundation of young talent led by KP. I am willing to wait and see. Thats really all I am saying. The Phil camp response is tongue and cheek as for some reason some really need to establish factions.

What you guys fail to acknowledge again and again and again and again and again - PHIL COULD NOT TRADE THE PICKS.

The 2015 pick could NOT be traded until the draft day.

The 2017 pick COULD NOT BE TRADED until draft day.

The earliest pick he could ever trade was 2018 from the day he took the job. And guess what, he tried to offer it for at least Jeff Teague back in 2015, but Atlanta wasn't interested because it was too far out.

He drafted Jerian Grant and traded him less than a year later. Does that count as trading a pick? He traded his only young chip at the time, Tim Hardaway Jr to get Grant.

I guess I'm just a jaded old Knicks fan at this point, but I'm pretty tired of the entire dysfunctional organization being blamed on one player. At this point I really really really cannot fucking wait for Melo to be traded. Because guess what? Then Phil has no excuses left.

Phil could have trade the KP pick. Orlando would have offered their pick and Olidepo as they did for Ibaka. Orlando absolutely coveted KP and tried to get him the year before.

Also Phil certainly could have used KP himself (or Willy perhaps) to bolster to roster around Melo and he did not.

You can be jaded and frustrated. I am not the guy who is going to defend Phil from anything from what I see. But if you think Phil hasnt been active in getting younger and building a pipeline from DAY ONE than you just havent been paying attention. All I am saying is Phil has been very active in bringing in young talent to look at. We see young fringe talent blossom and help teams all the time but in the past never commited to developing those types of players. That is happening as well.

If you need to tell yourself that everything Phil does is terrible and he's got no clue have at it. I dont see it that and I have stated my reasons. We had 5 rookies on the roster and added more later. Did Phil make moves to win now that failed? Sure did. Do we have young players to develop and evaluate instead? Sure do. Im ok with seeing this through.

The young talent he's brought in outside of KP and maybe Willy is mediocre and not rotation caliber for a playoffs team. Last year at this time Langston Galloway and Jerian Grant were great young triangle guards... or so we were told. Now it's Baker and Randle. Don't stop believing. Hold on to that feeeeling.

Tim Hardaway Jr is a better young guard than any guard Phil has brought in.

Most of the hot young players Phil has brought in are shooting under 40% from the field. I'm sorry, man. None of these guys outside of KP and maybe Willy will be on the team in three years. Tim Hardaway will still be starting for the Hawks though.

The young players Phil has brought in who aren't stars are excellent system players - they are already showing how that can work. You can underestimate and misinterpret who they are but in a triangle system you don't need "big three" alignments. You need one or two stars who get it and are clutch. The rotation for system players is different from lots of other hybrids. Baker is "enough" because he plays two-way, with guts and energy. Same for Holiday, O'Quinn, and so on down the roster.

IMO, the foundation is strong and will get stronger.

In Gaines we trust. Expect some unexpected draft picks and signings. We're getting close to having some fun again.

crzymdups wrote:This is a fantastic move if true. Never thought Timmy could net a first round pick. I love Jerian Grant. Perfect Triangle guard.

Lots of good GMs have struggled, especially early. Phil hasnt gotten the guy's he's wanted. Go look at some of the moves Jerry West made when Memphis hired him. There are sooo many factors. You have given up and you are revising history. Im willing to wait. Thats it. Im not saying anything more profound than that.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

Instead its like "Damn Melo... you shot 8-24. AGAIN."
"Yea man.. I just keeping thinking about these Phil tweets."
<HUGS>

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

fwk00 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:Jennings: "Willy is the next Marc Gasol"

Jennings: "I’m in the same position I was in New York... with a team that actually plays together."

Jennings says lots of things.

That being said you can see the agenda driven holfresh thinking. Chicken and the egg.. if Melo played better think there are any trade discussions? When you are the star player, the team isnt playing well and you are among career lows in points, rebs, assists and FG% you are going to hear trade trade rumors. Thats how pro sports works.

Hey holfresh... if you suck at your job your probably going to get fired. If you get fired its because you suck, not because the impending doom of being fired hurt your performance.

You've quoted Jennings say Willy is Marc Gasol jr. like ten times on this board as proof that Willy was legit.

But now when Jennings says something you don't like "he may have an agenda".

Anyone who watched the team saw the effect Phil had on Melo as soon as Phil did his thing in mid-December. Team was 14-10, Knicks were in LA and Melo met with Phil. Melo was clearly pissed after the meeting. The team is 16-40 since the meeting. As the trade talk got louder and the Rosen columns dropped, so did the Knicks defensive effort.

For someone whose all about "trust" and "team play" and "culture" Phil sure doesn't hold himself to those standards. He's a massive failure on the culture front here. People here are rolling around with delight that the Knicks only lost by 3 to a Washington team that clearly gave zero fucks last night - because they knew they didn't have to be engaged to beat us. They could've beaten us by 40pts if they wanted to. When it was close in the final two minutes, Wall just calmly drove down the lane for a WIDE OPEN DUNK.

I saw some sad posts saying Baker outplayed John Wall. Dear god, it's sad. Wall was taking the night off, while on the court. It was an exhibition game for Washington.

exactly. Its just a quote. I dont think Willy is legit because Jennings says he is. I think he's legit for about 40 other reasons. I posted the Willy quote for the exact reason you called me out. Holfresh would never acknowledge Willy's potential. Phil draft someone good in round 2? Naaaaahhh... but if Jennings said Phil phucked things up lets start a thread.

Phil camp. Thats me. Tent is up and the fire is on. Come have some 11 ring chili. It may be slow to cook but history shows its a good recipe. I think you have been eating a brand that has left a bad taste in your mouth. As for Phil if he keeps turning this thing over and drafting well while he figures out how to get the type of players in he wants to build around fine. Back into a rebuild? OK. Horrible Noah signing? Sure. Pump up the volume. Willing to be patient with a guy like Phil vs. a like Melo? Ill take Phil. Ive seen Melo's brand for 7 years. Im ready to let Phil fumble around until he finds the right mix.

So yea. Phil camp.

When do you draw the line and say enough is enough for phil, maybe after 7 non playoff seasons.

Enough is enough the minute you all want Dolan back in charge.

How stupid can Knicks fans get? Jackson is trusted by Dolan and Dolan has said so. You can hate on that all you like but Jackson has BB cred nobody else [who might be coming here] has. Phil will get an extension and deservedly so. The organization is far better off than its been in years despite some necessary and inevitable losing that would have happened anyway.

Want a winner? Follow the UConn women who play one or two competitive games a year and sweep everyone else. You'll always feel happy.

Hey, that's the only real defense of Phil at this point. He's better than Dolan. You know what, I got nothing. I can't argue that. That's basically all we got. Hope Phil can make some good picks and stop giving up on young players and it all makes sense. I haven't seen much to show Phil can build a cohesive roster that fits the style of play he wants... but you're right. It's better than Dolan. God help us all.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

crzymdups wrote:Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade. What's our cap look like for this summer now?

I loved DRose as a player back in the day. Not sure what he has left in the tank at this rate.

It'll be interesting. With Hornacek running things... could be very interesting. Hornacek got his 28yr old PG.

Curious to hear Melo's reaction...

Again the REAL problem is trying to build around Melo and Melo's timeline. You are 100% right that because of that the narritive has changed. I am willing to see how we move on from this, starting with the draft and what the team looks like post Melo. Maybe that sounds like "just waiting another year" to you, but if Melo goes its the first year since Ewing left we didnt have a savior or some star player faux player to build around. Its about a team and adding parts. I am looking forward to that and OK with sit through this drama, ESPECIALLY while I see us trying to build and add/develop young guys.

crzymdups wrote:Hey, that's the only real defense of Phil at this point. He's better than Dolan. You know what, I got nothing. I can't argue that. That's basically all we got. Hope Phil can make some good picks and stop giving up on young players and it all makes sense. I haven't seen much to show Phil can build a cohesive roster that fits the style of play he wants... but you're right. It's better than Dolan. God help us all.

14 Scott Layden 1999-08-10 2003-12-22
15 Isiah Thomas 2003-12-22 2008-04-02
16 Donnie Walsh 2008-04-02 2011-06-30
17 Glen Grunwald 2011-06-30 2013-09-26
18 Steve Mills 2013-09-26 2014-03-18
19 Phil Jackson 2014-03-18 present

Which guy are you most comfortable with?

I am great with giving Phil his 5 years and seeing where we are. So far so good? No, but there are some young players and a more flexible roster.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

I don't understand this narrative at all. Phil is grooming Mills and Houston and the rest of his staff as to how to manage assets, when to take chances, and when to hold them. The Westchester Knicks have become a stable asset to keep the end of the bench engaged and as a holding station for additional assets.

No plan can do more than create a framework for success that is dependent on the coaches and players. Phil,you, and I all look at the teams he's fielded on paper and reasonably expect the to make the playoffs but they don't. Triangulate why and Melo is the common denominator. It is what it is, nothing else.

As for meaningless games, who cares? Its ping-pong balls all the way down. We all have confidence that Phil, Gaines, and others will do right by the pick - again its no guarantee no matter where you pick.

Squint and you can see Phil's vision but its not whole cloth yet. Doesn't mean there's no plan or that he's incompetent.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

Your take on the Rose trade:

crzymdups wrote:Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade. What's our cap look like for this summer now?

I loved DRose as a player back in the day. Not sure what he has left in the tank at this rate.

It'll be interesting. With Hornacek running things... could be very interesting. Hornacek got his 28yr old PG.

Curious to hear Melo's reaction...

That doesnt read like your pretty pissed about giving up on Grant. Sure does sound like you see some logic at the time behind this.

Again the REAL problem is trying to build around Melo and Melo's timeline. You are 100% right that because of that the narritive has changed. I am willing to see how we move on from this, starting with the draft and what the team looks like post Melo. Maybe that sounds like "just waiting another year" to you, but if Melo goes its the first year since Ewing left we didnt have a savior or some star player faux player to build around. Its about a team and adding parts. I am looking forward to that and OK with sit through this drama, ESPECIALLY while I see us trying to build and add/develop young guys.

Yes, a ringing endorsement. "Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade."

And if you think KP won't immediately be tabbed the savior role (and hasn't already by some here), I don't know what to tell you.

Like I said, I can't wait til Melo is traded, because then Phil finally has no more excuses. I'm actually wondering if Phil will even trade his safety net away. It's a risky move.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

Your take on the Rose trade:

crzymdups wrote:Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade. What's our cap look like for this summer now?

I loved DRose as a player back in the day. Not sure what he has left in the tank at this rate.

It'll be interesting. With Hornacek running things... could be very interesting. Hornacek got his 28yr old PG.

Curious to hear Melo's reaction...

That doesnt read like your pretty pissed about giving up on Grant. Sure does sound like you see some logic at the time behind this.

Again the REAL problem is trying to build around Melo and Melo's timeline. You are 100% right that because of that the narritive has changed. I am willing to see how we move on from this, starting with the draft and what the team looks like post Melo. Maybe that sounds like "just waiting another year" to you, but if Melo goes its the first year since Ewing left we didnt have a savior or some star player faux player to build around. Its about a team and adding parts. I am looking forward to that and OK with sit through this drama, ESPECIALLY while I see us trying to build and add/develop young guys.

Yes, a ringing endorsement. "Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade."

And if you think KP won't immediately be tabbed the savior role (and hasn't already by some here), I don't know what to tell you.

Like I said, I can't wait til Melo is traded, because then Phil finally has no more excuses. I'm actually wondering if Phil will even trade his safety net away. It's a risky move.

No. You didnt make a ringing endorsement. It was a wait and see reaction. Far different than "giving up on Grant was the last straw" which is what you said earlier.

fwk00 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

I don't understand this narrative at all. Phil is grooming Mills and Houston and the rest of his staff as to how to manage assets, when to take chances, and when to hold them. The Westchester Knicks have become a stable asset to keep the end of the bench engaged and as a holding station for additional assets.

No plan can do more than create a framework for success that is dependent on the coaches and players. Phil,you, and I all look at the teams he's fielded on paper and reasonably expect the to make the playoffs but they don't. Triangulate why and Melo is the common denominator. It is what it is, nothing else.

As for meaningless games, who cares? Its ping-pong balls all the way down. We all have confidence that Phil, Gaines, and others will do right by the pick - again its no guarantee no matter where you pick.

Squint and you can see Phil's vision but its not whole cloth yet. Doesn't mean there's no plan or that he's incompetent.

What is inaccurate about that narrative? I guess I left out that Afflalo who played okay but was villified and left for nothing and he signed DWill who played okay but also left for nothing. Am I leaving anything else out?

I suppose I left out the coaching carousel, but I get exhausted thinking about that.

He's inarguably (well, I guess you guys are arguing it for some reason) made several shifts in strategy. First it was Free Agency where he'd bring in Triangle guys - we were sold LaMarcus Aldridge or maybe Deandre Jordan or... uh at worst Greg Monroe. None of them wanted any part of it. Then it was the draft and young players. Then he turned it all around and gave away his Triangle center and handpicked PG for Rose and Noah... I don't see consistency in anyway there. IF he had stayed the course, I might have more faith that he'll stay the course moving forward, but I don't.

Hell. Even WITHIN THIS SEASON they went from "Triangle aspects" to abandoning the Triangle for pick and roll and back to the Triangle after the all-star break. Making an argument for a consistent vision with Phil here is laughable.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

Your take on the Rose trade:

crzymdups wrote:Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade. What's our cap look like for this summer now?

I loved DRose as a player back in the day. Not sure what he has left in the tank at this rate.

It'll be interesting. With Hornacek running things... could be very interesting. Hornacek got his 28yr old PG.

Curious to hear Melo's reaction...

That doesnt read like your pretty pissed about giving up on Grant. Sure does sound like you see some logic at the time behind this.

Again the REAL problem is trying to build around Melo and Melo's timeline. You are 100% right that because of that the narritive has changed. I am willing to see how we move on from this, starting with the draft and what the team looks like post Melo. Maybe that sounds like "just waiting another year" to you, but if Melo goes its the first year since Ewing left we didnt have a savior or some star player faux player to build around. Its about a team and adding parts. I am looking forward to that and OK with sit through this drama, ESPECIALLY while I see us trying to build and add/develop young guys.

Yes, a ringing endorsement. "Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade."

And if you think KP won't immediately be tabbed the savior role (and hasn't already by some here), I don't know what to tell you.

Like I said, I can't wait til Melo is traded, because then Phil finally has no more excuses. I'm actually wondering if Phil will even trade his safety net away. It's a risky move.

Well while the KNicks are struggling with a young team you can post Melo's scoring lines every night as he helps catapult the Clippers to another 2nd round exit.... if it makes you feel better.

No. You didnt make a ringing endorsement. It was a wait and see reaction. Far different than "giving up on Grant was the last straw" which is what you said earlier.

I doubt there will ever be a last straw for me. I love the Knicks and want them to be good. It doesn't mean I lie to myself and pretend to be excited about the job Phil has done here.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

Your take on the Rose trade:

crzymdups wrote:Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade. What's our cap look like for this summer now?

I loved DRose as a player back in the day. Not sure what he has left in the tank at this rate.

It'll be interesting. With Hornacek running things... could be very interesting. Hornacek got his 28yr old PG.

Curious to hear Melo's reaction...

That doesnt read like your pretty pissed about giving up on Grant. Sure does sound like you see some logic at the time behind this.

Again the REAL problem is trying to build around Melo and Melo's timeline. You are 100% right that because of that the narritive has changed. I am willing to see how we move on from this, starting with the draft and what the team looks like post Melo. Maybe that sounds like "just waiting another year" to you, but if Melo goes its the first year since Ewing left we didnt have a savior or some star player faux player to build around. Its about a team and adding parts. I am looking forward to that and OK with sit through this drama, ESPECIALLY while I see us trying to build and add/develop young guys.

Yes, a ringing endorsement. "Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade."

And if you think KP won't immediately be tabbed the savior role (and hasn't already by some here), I don't know what to tell you.

Like I said, I can't wait til Melo is traded, because then Phil finally has no more excuses. I'm actually wondering if Phil will even trade his safety net away. It's a risky move.

Well while the KNicks are struggling with a young team you can post Melo's scoring lines every night as he helps catapult the Clippers to another 2nd round exit.... if it makes you feel better.

No. You didnt make a ringing endorsement. It was a wait and see reaction. Far different than "giving up on Grant was the last straw" which is what you said earlier.

I doubt there will ever be a last straw for me. I love the Knicks and want them to be good. It doesn't mean I lie to myself and pretend to be excited about the job Phil has done here.

Actually its me. I admit it. I am excited about the prospect of moving forward with a Phil created team post Melo/Rose. I am excited to see how the coach looks with a young roster and no veteran players with egos who only play a certain way to cater to. I am indeed excited about that. I also understand it will probably result in another 30ish win season which is what it is. I do believe we see an uptick in next year's win total and style of play, but lets wait and see. I am also excited to see the new Marvel movies. These days the excitement levels are about the same. Rebuilding sucks. Its tough. It means bad play and losing stretches, but its how foundations are built. I didnt expect it to be mistake free. I am ok with "the plan" moving forward.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

Your take on the Rose trade:

crzymdups wrote:Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade. What's our cap look like for this summer now?

I loved DRose as a player back in the day. Not sure what he has left in the tank at this rate.

It'll be interesting. With Hornacek running things... could be very interesting. Hornacek got his 28yr old PG.

Curious to hear Melo's reaction...

That doesnt read like your pretty pissed about giving up on Grant. Sure does sound like you see some logic at the time behind this.

Again the REAL problem is trying to build around Melo and Melo's timeline. You are 100% right that because of that the narritive has changed. I am willing to see how we move on from this, starting with the draft and what the team looks like post Melo. Maybe that sounds like "just waiting another year" to you, but if Melo goes its the first year since Ewing left we didnt have a savior or some star player faux player to build around. Its about a team and adding parts. I am looking forward to that and OK with sit through this drama, ESPECIALLY while I see us trying to build and add/develop young guys.

Yes, a ringing endorsement. "Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade."

And if you think KP won't immediately be tabbed the savior role (and hasn't already by some here), I don't know what to tell you.

Like I said, I can't wait til Melo is traded, because then Phil finally has no more excuses. I'm actually wondering if Phil will even trade his safety net away. It's a risky move.

Well while the KNicks are struggling with a young team you can post Melo's scoring lines every night as he helps catapult the Clippers to another 2nd round exit.... if it makes you feel better.

No. You didnt make a ringing endorsement. It was a wait and see reaction. Far different than "giving up on Grant was the last straw" which is what you said earlier.

I doubt there will ever be a last straw for me. I love the Knicks and want them to be good. It doesn't mean I lie to myself and pretend to be excited about the job Phil has done here.

Who is asking you to do that? Who is doing that here? (Dont mention Nix, he doesnt count).

Actually its me. I admit it. I am excited about the prospect of moving forward with a Phil created team post Melo/Rose. I am excited to see how the coach looks with a young roster and no veteran players with egos who only play a certain way to cater to. I am indeed excited about that. I also understand it will probably result in another 30ish win season which is what it is. I do believe we see an uptick in next year's win total and style of play, but lets wait and see. I am also excited to see the new Marvel movies. These days the excitement levels are about the same. Rebuilding sucks. Its tough. It means bad play and losing stretches, but its how foundations are built. I didnt expect it to be mistake free. I am ok with "the plan" moving forward.

Actually, I guess what I'm really tired of is posters here villifying the likes of Afflalo and Melo and giving Phil a pass. I suppose it's not much a surprise I see it the opposite way - they've been good soldiers for a reeling, plan-changing old man who trashes the very pieces he brought in behind their backs to Charley Rosen over a bowl of good sticky ganja.

I'm not sure how fans can have faith in "the plan" when Phil and co changed the offensive system THREE TIMES this year. First it was Hornacek's Triangle Aspects, then they moved away from the Triangle almost entirely and went with more pick and roll, then after the all-star break it was full on Triangle again. Is it any wonder veterans like Rose and Melo and CLee threw up their hands in disgust and just tried to play the game the way they always had?

If "the plan" going forward is full on Triangle, great. It hasn't worked in the league in years, it bombed in Minnesota, it's bombed terribly here whenever it is actually being run. I don't have much faith in it working, but at least be consistent about it, for god's sake.

fishmike wrote:the thread title tells you everything you need to know about Melo's leadership. If it "took a toll" its because Melo bitched about it and used it as an excuse for him under performing. "Hey guys.. I got a NTC. Lets just focus on winning the next game and playing better defense."
Case closed.

Instead its like "Damn Melo... you shot 8-24. AGAIN."
"Yea man.. I just keeping thinking about these Phil tweets."
<HUGS>