Knicks · Brandon Jennings: Carmelo Anthony trade talks 'took a toll' on Knicks.. (page 4)
fishmike wrote:the thread title tells you everything you need to know about Melo's leadership. If it "took a toll" its because Melo bitched about it and used it as an excuse for him under performing. "Hey guys.. I got a NTC. Lets just focus on winning the next game and playing better defense."one flaw he has is that he isnt mentally strong, you can get into his head very easily
Case closed.Instead its like "Damn Melo... you shot 8-24. AGAIN."
"Yea man.. I just keeping thinking about these Phil tweets."
<HUGS>
crzymdups wrote:fwk00 wrote:crzymdups wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt
Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.
Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.
Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?
THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.
How's his defense?
WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?
Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.
Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.
Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.
If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)
There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.
2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.
2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.
2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.
2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD
Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.
But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.
I don't understand this narrative at all. Phil is grooming Mills and Houston and the rest of his staff as to how to manage assets, when to take chances, and when to hold them. The Westchester Knicks have become a stable asset to keep the end of the bench engaged and as a holding station for additional assets.No plan can do more than create a framework for success that is dependent on the coaches and players. Phil,you, and I all look at the teams he's fielded on paper and reasonably expect the to make the playoffs but they don't. Triangulate why and Melo is the common denominator. It is what it is, nothing else.
As for meaningless games, who cares? Its ping-pong balls all the way down. We all have confidence that Phil, Gaines, and others will do right by the pick - again its no guarantee no matter where you pick.
Squint and you can see Phil's vision but its not whole cloth yet. Doesn't mean there's no plan or that he's incompetent.
What is inaccurate about that narrative? I guess I left out that Afflalo who played okay but was villified and left for nothing and he signed DWill who played okay but also left for nothing. Am I leaving anything else out?
I suppose I left out the coaching carousel, but I get exhausted thinking about that.
He's inarguably (well, I guess you guys are arguing it for some reason) made several shifts in strategy. First it was Free Agency where he'd bring in Triangle guys - we were sold LaMarcus Aldridge or maybe Deandre Jordan or... uh at worst Greg Monroe. None of them wanted any part of it. Then it was the draft and young players. Then he turned it all around and gave away his Triangle center and handpicked PG for Rose and Noah... I don't see consistency in anyway there. IF he had stayed the course, I might have more faith that he'll stay the course moving forward, but I don't.
Hell. Even WITHIN THIS SEASON they went from "Triangle aspects" to abandoning the Triangle for pick and roll and back to the Triangle after the all-star break. Making an argument for a consistent vision with Phil here is laughable.
When you're losing and the team's vets are bytching about the style of play it's not crazy to try and let them play the way they asked. Jeff tried that and the team still lost cuz those vets didn't give the needed effort on D!!! The least they could do is bust it on the defensive end after Jeff let them go full on Spread PnR.
So now we're back to running Triangle only with the kids and they're doing better. The problem is we can't easily build around Melo and it's not like they didn't try. Moreover why should they continue to try at this point??? Melo isn't worth the effort of all things the team has to do in order to make it work with him in at the core.
Now they should move on to building a new core not based on Melo!!! This summer should have nothing to do with Melo's needs. Those days are over!!!
fishmike wrote:wow lol that puts the agenda so in perspectivecrzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt
Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.
Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.
Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?
THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.
How's his defense?
WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?
Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.
Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.
Thanks fishmike
Next I'd like to read the reaction to drafting Porzingis from some of the Phil bashers and melo backers on this site
holfresh wrote:The prevailing point of view from the players, if you look at Jennings, KP and Melo's comments were that management and specifically Phil, affected on court play with his antics...Charlie Rosen article and tweets didn't help cultivate an environment that leads to winning, it distracted the team...Knicks were 14-10 when all this started...
It's a very WEAK argument IMO. Phil calling for more ball movement should not cause a group of seasoned vets to fall apart!!! This is just excuse making at its worst. DO YOUR DAMNED JOB!!!
Move the ball and play some D! This is all that they had to do.
fwk00 wrote:crzymdups wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt
Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.
Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.
Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?
THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.
How's his defense?
WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?
Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.
Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.
Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.
If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)
There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.
2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.
2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.
2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.
2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD
Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.
But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.
I don't understand this narrative at all. Phil is grooming Mills and Houston and the rest of his staff as to how to manage assets, when to take chances, and when to hold them. The Westchester Knicks have become a stable asset to keep the end of the bench engaged and as a holding station for additional assets.No plan can do more than create a framework for success that is dependent on the coaches and players. Phil,you, and I all look at the teams he's fielded on paper and reasonably expect the to make the playoffs but they don't. Triangulate why and Melo is the common denominator. It is what it is, nothing else.
As for meaningless games, who cares? Its ping-pong balls all the way down. We all have confidence that Phil, Gaines, and others will do right by the pick - again its no guarantee no matter where you pick.
Squint and you can see Phil's vision but its not whole cloth yet. Doesn't mean there's no plan or that he's incompetent.
inexperience Phil who has put together 3 losing ass teams is grooming Allan and Mills....lol.
I could understand if he was on the side lines like Riley goomoing his Eric..but his his awful at his current position, he needs to be groomed himself..
nyknickzingis wrote:fishmike wrote:wow lol that puts the agenda so in perspectivecrzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt
Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.
Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.
Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?
THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.
How's his defense?
WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?
Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.
Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.
Thanks fishmikeNext I'd like to read the reaction to drafting Porzingis from some of the Phil bashers and melo backers on this site
How does it put it into perspective? That I was excited to draft Grant two years ago and two years later we have no Grant and he's been traded for a washed up veteran and I'm wondering what the plan is? Because that's what happened. Where's the agenda?
We can't check your posts from two years ago, because you were a Miami Heat fan back then and you've admitted that. Peace be with you.
crzymdups wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:fishmike wrote:wow lol that puts the agenda so in perspectivecrzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt
Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.
Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.
Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?
THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.
How's his defense?
WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?
Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.
Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.
Thanks fishmikeNext I'd like to read the reaction to drafting Porzingis from some of the Phil bashers and melo backers on this site
How does it put it into perspective? That I was excited to draft Grant two years ago and two years later we have no Grant and he's been traded for a washed up veteran and I'm wondering what the plan is? Because that's what happened. Where's the agenda?
Dude you were all for trading THJ away for Grant
Then you admit to being a fan of Rose
Knicks took a risk that fell through
You seemed to be in line with the moves until they failed
Now here's where I get you. Phil is paid 12$M to make succcesful moves and not the moves a fan would. He made mistakes .. but none of the moves have caused long term damage to the franchise.
nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:The prevailing point of view from the players, if you look at Jennings, KP and Melo's comments were that management and specifically Phil, affected on court play with his antics...Charlie Rosen article and tweets didn't help cultivate an environment that leads to winning, it distracted the team...Knicks were 14-10 when all this started...It's a very WEAK argument IMO. Phil calling for more ball movement should not cause a group of seasoned vets to fall apart!!! This is just excuse making at its worst. DO YOUR DAMNED JOB!!!
Move the ball and play some D! This is all that they had to do.
That's your narrative..They called a meeting to tell Phil they will moved away from running the triangle..Phil, according to the players, "took it well"...Until he didn't, and lashed out in the media...So you can promote your narrative, which isn't accurate...
crzymdups wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:This would be all fine and dandy if the losing happened after the Melo trade talks
Melo was put on the "block" January 20 or so
Knicks record at that time was already a few games under .500
The Knicks began to lose and that's when Phil asks melo about wanting to stay a knick or notThat said yes it was a distraction no doubt
But the losing already was going on. Team was imploding on the court before Melo trade talk.
Phil publicly slagged Melo and it got enough media attention that they met when the team was in LA in mid-December. These are facts. I know Phil and facts go together about as well as Trump and facts, but sorry they are facts.
Only way to get Melo out of here is to make him uncomfortable. As it is Melo is a very content dude and Phil knows only way to make a move with Melo and his NTC is an uncomfortable environment.
With that said I predicted that this would be Melo's last season with the Knicks. It's only fair to move him for his own sake and the sake of the team. The player needed to incorporate to make Melo a winner just aren't available.
fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Phil could have trade the KP pick. Orlando would have offered their pick and Olidepo as they did for Ibaka. Orlando absolutely coveted KP and tried to get him the year before.fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:it would be hard to imagine Isiah. I would assume if Phil doesnt re-up in some capacity that Mills would take it over, or possible Houston. Maybe they promote Gaines in some capacity to keep him around. Maybe Phil takes a 2-3 year extension.fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:exactly. Its just a quote. I dont think Willy is legit because Jennings says he is. I think he's legit for about 40 other reasons. I posted the Willy quote for the exact reason you called me out. Holfresh would never acknowledge Willy's potential. Phil draft someone good in round 2? Naaaaahhh... but if Jennings said Phil phucked things up lets start a thread.fishmike wrote:Jennings: "Willy is the next Marc Gasol"Jennings: "I’m in the same position I was in New York... with a team that actually plays together."
Jennings says lots of things.
That being said you can see the agenda driven holfresh thinking. Chicken and the egg.. if Melo played better think there are any trade discussions? When you are the star player, the team isnt playing well and you are among career lows in points, rebs, assists and FG% you are going to hear trade trade rumors. Thats how pro sports works.
Hey holfresh... if you suck at your job your probably going to get fired. If you get fired its because you suck, not because the impending doom of being fired hurt your performance.
You've quoted Jennings say Willy is Marc Gasol jr. like ten times on this board as proof that Willy was legit.
But now when Jennings says something you don't like "he may have an agenda".
Anyone who watched the team saw the effect Phil had on Melo as soon as Phil did his thing in mid-December. Team was 14-10, Knicks were in LA and Melo met with Phil. Melo was clearly pissed after the meeting. The team is 16-40 since the meeting. As the trade talk got louder and the Rosen columns dropped, so did the Knicks defensive effort.
For someone whose all about "trust" and "team play" and "culture" Phil sure doesn't hold himself to those standards. He's a massive failure on the culture front here. People here are rolling around with delight that the Knicks only lost by 3 to a Washington team that clearly gave zero fucks last night - because they knew they didn't have to be engaged to beat us. They could've beaten us by 40pts if they wanted to. When it was close in the final two minutes, Wall just calmly drove down the lane for a WIDE OPEN DUNK.
I saw some sad posts saying Baker outplayed John Wall. Dear god, it's sad. Wall was taking the night off, while on the court. It was an exhibition game for Washington.
Phil camp. Thats me. Tent is up and the fire is on. Come have some 11 ring chili. It may be slow to cook but history shows its a good recipe. I think you have been eating a brand that has left a bad taste in your mouth. As for Phil if he keeps turning this thing over and drafting well while he figures out how to get the type of players in he wants to build around fine. Back into a rebuild? OK. Horrible Noah signing? Sure. Pump up the volume. Willing to be patient with a guy like Phil vs. a like Melo? Ill take Phil. Ive seen Melo's brand for 7 years. Im ready to let Phil fumble around until he finds the right mix.
So yea. Phil camp.
Well, unless Phil has plans to re-up another five years and do this til he's 80, he's only got two years left before Dolan brings Isiah back. I'm sure the Knicks will be really great once Melo is gone! What have we won in the last 16 years with Melo anyway?
Here's the thing... Phil doesnt trade picks and has drafted well. I fully recognize that the Phil era may simply be a house cleaning. 4-5 years of losing seasons, Melo drama, Dolan cussing at fans... but during that stretch of losing we build up a sustainable young base of quality talent. IF we do nothing but more of same while adding some high end draft talent than when Phil leaves we will have a flexible roster loaded with young talent. I can live with that. I see that as the downside. The upside is he gets the guys together that he envisioned when took this job, we play system basketball and are built around a foundation of young talent led by KP. I am willing to wait and see. Thats really all I am saying. The Phil camp response is tongue and cheek as for some reason some really need to establish factions.
What you guys fail to acknowledge again and again and again and again and again - PHIL COULD NOT TRADE THE PICKS.
The 2015 pick could NOT be traded until the draft day.
The 2017 pick COULD NOT BE TRADED until draft day.
The earliest pick he could ever trade was 2018 from the day he took the job. And guess what, he tried to offer it for at least Jeff Teague back in 2015, but Atlanta wasn't interested because it was too far out.
He drafted Jerian Grant and traded him less than a year later. Does that count as trading a pick? He traded his only young chip at the time, Tim Hardaway Jr to get Grant.
I guess I'm just a jaded old Knicks fan at this point, but I'm pretty tired of the entire dysfunctional organization being blamed on one player. At this point I really really really cannot fucking wait for Melo to be traded. Because guess what? Then Phil has no excuses left.
Also Phil certainly could have used KP himself (or Willy perhaps) to bolster to roster around Melo and he did not.
You can be jaded and frustrated. I am not the guy who is going to defend Phil from anything from what I see. But if you think Phil hasnt been active in getting younger and building a pipeline from DAY ONE than you just havent been paying attention. All I am saying is Phil has been very active in bringing in young talent to look at. We see young fringe talent blossom and help teams all the time but in the past never commited to developing those types of players. That is happening as well.
If you need to tell yourself that everything Phil does is terrible and he's got no clue have at it. I dont see it that and I have stated my reasons. We had 5 rookies on the roster and added more later. Did Phil make moves to win now that failed? Sure did. Do we have young players to develop and evaluate instead? Sure do. Im ok with seeing this through.
The young talent he's brought in outside of KP and maybe Willy is mediocre and not rotation caliber for a playoffs team. Last year at this time Langston Galloway and Jerian Grant were great young triangle guards... or so we were told. Now it's Baker and Randle. Don't stop believing. Hold on to that feeeeling.
Tim Hardaway Jr is a better young guard than any guard Phil has brought in.
Most of the hot young players Phil has brought in are shooting under 40% from the field. I'm sorry, man. None of these guys outside of KP and maybe Willy will be on the team in three years. Tim Hardaway will still be starting for the Hawks though.
He's had one first rounder. Lets kill the Nets for adding low end talent as well.Pretty sure you like the Grant trade at the time. I liked it as well. Pretty revisionist. But hey.. you are frustrated with Phil right now so its not exactly like your looking very hard for things he may have done right.
Your angry. I get it.
Good teams take years to build. They take good young cores of players playing together to work. If Hardaway Jr is the guy you cant stomach as the one that got away we are going OK. How do you think the Kings feel having had Whiteside AND Isiah Thomas?
That's why the kings are still looking for that's young core like phil, just another franchise that have inexperience morons running the show..
I guess phil has no patience, yet we should have some for him.
Vmart wrote:crzymdups wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:This would be all fine and dandy if the losing happened after the Melo trade talks
Melo was put on the "block" January 20 or so
Knicks record at that time was already a few games under .500
The Knicks began to lose and that's when Phil asks melo about wanting to stay a knick or notThat said yes it was a distraction no doubt
But the losing already was going on. Team was imploding on the court before Melo trade talk.
Phil publicly slagged Melo and it got enough media attention that they met when the team was in LA in mid-December. These are facts. I know Phil and facts go together about as well as Trump and facts, but sorry they are facts.
Only way to get Melo out of here is to make him uncomfortable. As it is Melo is a very content dude and Phil knows only way to make a move with Melo and his NTC is an uncomfortable environment.
With that said I predicted that this would be Melo's last season with the Knicks. It's only fair to move him for his own sake and the sake of the team. The player needed to incorporate to make Melo a winner just aren't available.
And FA are suppose to applause this type of tactics
Vmart wrote:crzymdups wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:This would be all fine and dandy if the losing happened after the Melo trade talks
Melo was put on the "block" January 20 or so
Knicks record at that time was already a few games under .500
The Knicks began to lose and that's when Phil asks melo about wanting to stay a knick or notThat said yes it was a distraction no doubt
But the losing already was going on. Team was imploding on the court before Melo trade talk.
Phil publicly slagged Melo and it got enough media attention that they met when the team was in LA in mid-December. These are facts. I know Phil and facts go together about as well as Trump and facts, but sorry they are facts.
Only way to get Melo out of here is to make him uncomfortable. As it is Melo is a very content dude and Phil knows only way to make a move with Melo and his NTC is an uncomfortable environment.
With that said I predicted that this would be Melo's last season with the Knicks. It's only fair to move him for his own sake and the sake of the team. The player needed to incorporate to make Melo a winner just aren't available.
And FA are suppose to applause this type of tactics
nyknickzingis wrote:crzymdups wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:fishmike wrote:wow lol that puts the agenda so in perspectivecrzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt
Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.
Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.
Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?
THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.
How's his defense?
WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?
Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.
Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.
Thanks fishmikeNext I'd like to read the reaction to drafting Porzingis from some of the Phil bashers and melo backers on this site
How does it put it into perspective? That I was excited to draft Grant two years ago and two years later we have no Grant and he's been traded for a washed up veteran and I'm wondering what the plan is? Because that's what happened. Where's the agenda?
Dude you were all for trading THJ away for Grant
Then you admit to being a fan of Rose
Knicks took a risk that fell through
You seemed to be in line with the moves until they failedNow here's where I get you. Phil is paid 12$M to make succcesful moves and not the moves a fan would. He made mistakes .. but none of the moves have caused long term damage to the franchise.
I said I had previously been a fan of Rose and wasn't sure how I felt about the trade.
Go ahead and dig up Nix and Fish's narrative all that season BEFORE the Rose trade - it was that we were rebuilding and going with a youth movement and going back to the Triangle. Then he hired Hornacek, the Rose trade happened, he signed Noah and CLee and all the sudden we were no longer rebuilding and going with the Triangle. Then that blew up and all the sudden we are rebuilding again and going with the Triangle again. It's exhausting and ineffective "building." You haven't been around here as long as some of us and haven't gone through the same narrative resets over and over again, so I get it. If we're FINALLY doing a real rebuild, I'm all for it. But we've gone down this road before, and I'll be skeptical until it sticks for more than a season.
The reason I brought up Hardaway and then Grant is the supposed pipeline of young players Phil has been bringing in since day one. I wasn't a huge fan of Hardaway's fit in the Triangle - though if you go back to 2013 you'll see I was all about drafting him and loved him his rookie season. He had a bumpy second season, in part because all the vets were slowly stripped away from that team and he was told to completely change his game. I coveted Grant in the draft, so I was okay trading Hardaway for Grant. I was less enthused about giving Grant away in the Rose deal. I think Grant has gone from a terrible team to play for, to an even worse situation in Chicago where they have two PGs ahead of him in MCW and Rondo. It's a mess.
But if you're talking about "Phil's pipeline of young players from day one" and "Phil has never had young players or draft picks to work with" - I think it is highly worth noting that Hardaway was traded away after a year and has blossomed elsewhere and that Grant was traded away after less than a year - he's yet to blossom elsewhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did. People here were taking shots at Tim Hardaway all last year when he struggled in Atlanta - but they built him back up right. It's a testament to Coach Budz's player development. That's a big thing we've lacked over the years in NY. You saw it with Ariza, with Frye, with Gallinari and Wilson and Shumpert and Hardaway. Guys who have been here a while have seen this happen over and over again.
Hey, I REALLY hope we get a stud in the draft. I REALLY hope this rebuild sticks. I REALLY do. I'm all about the Knicks being good. I haven't agreed with many of the moves taken to get to where we are, but it's about where it goes from here now. Nix will jump in and say we're clearly on the right path because Phil has committed to a rebuild. But he also said that last year before the Rose trade. IF we really commit to building with young guys, I'll gladly be more patient. But at this moment, I'm honestly not convinced that Melo even can be traded this summer.
Let me ask you this - will you guys have patience if Melo and Rose are brought back next season? Because I think there's actually a slight chance that may happen. It'll be funny to see the reactions here if even one of them is brought back after we spent this year hearing how they're the devil in a blue jersey.
holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:The prevailing point of view from the players, if you look at Jennings, KP and Melo's comments were that management and specifically Phil, affected on court play with his antics...Charlie Rosen article and tweets didn't help cultivate an environment that leads to winning, it distracted the team...Knicks were 14-10 when all this started...It's a very WEAK argument IMO. Phil calling for more ball movement should not cause a group of seasoned vets to fall apart!!! This is just excuse making at its worst. DO YOUR DAMNED JOB!!!
Move the ball and play some D! This is all that they had to do.That's your narrative..They called a meeting to tell Phil they will moved away from running the triangle..Phil, according to the players, "took it well"...Until he didn't, and lashed out in the media...So you can promote your narrative, which isn't accurate...
Is this comment so bad that it should completely destroy a team???
"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-j..."Carmelo a lot of times wants to hold the ball longer than — we have a rule: If you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold it for three, four, five seconds, and then everybody comes to a stop,” Jackson said on Tuesday. “That is one of the things we work with. But he’s adjusted to (the triangle), he knows what he can do and he’s willing to see its success.”
nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:The prevailing point of view from the players, if you look at Jennings, KP and Melo's comments were that management and specifically Phil, affected on court play with his antics...Charlie Rosen article and tweets didn't help cultivate an environment that leads to winning, it distracted the team...Knicks were 14-10 when all this started...It's a very WEAK argument IMO. Phil calling for more ball movement should not cause a group of seasoned vets to fall apart!!! This is just excuse making at its worst. DO YOUR DAMNED JOB!!!
Move the ball and play some D! This is all that they had to do.That's your narrative..They called a meeting to tell Phil they will moved away from running the triangle..Phil, according to the players, "took it well"...Until he didn't, and lashed out in the media...So you can promote your narrative, which isn't accurate...
Is this comment so bad that it should completely destroy a team???
"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-j..."Carmelo a lot of times wants to hold the ball longer than — we have a rule: If you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold it for three, four, five seconds, and then everybody comes to a stop,” Jackson said on Tuesday. “That is one of the things we work with. But he’s adjusted to (the triangle), he knows what he can do and he’s willing to see its success.”
A week later Rosen did his hit job and Knicks had a wining record...The players are saying there is confusion from top to bottom, it took a toll on the team...Maybe you know better...
crzymdups wrote:I just dont think you are being honest here. I think you on a Phil rant/tilt and I think you see anyone who isnt on the same tilt as giving Phil a pass. Pass for what? Is me being willing to wait a bit longer giving him a pass? Phil hasnt made good moves here. I say that over and over again and I am labeled as the leader of the pro Phil movement. Its bullshit. Im sorry I dont feel the need to assess blame. It accomplishes nothing. Its nonconstructive.fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Who is asking you to do that? Who is doing that here? (Dont mention Nix, he doesnt count).fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Well while the KNicks are struggling with a young team you can post Melo's scoring lines every night as he helps catapult the Clippers to another 2nd round exit.... if it makes you feel better.fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt
Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.
Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.
Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?
THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.
How's his defense?
WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?
Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.
Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.
Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.
If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)
There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.
2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.
2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.
2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.
2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD
Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.
But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.
Your take on the Rose trade:crzymdups wrote:Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade. What's our cap look like for this summer now?I loved DRose as a player back in the day. Not sure what he has left in the tank at this rate.
It'll be interesting. With Hornacek running things... could be very interesting. Hornacek got his 28yr old PG.
Curious to hear Melo's reaction...
That doesnt read like your pretty pissed about giving up on Grant. Sure does sound like you see some logic at the time behind this.Again the REAL problem is trying to build around Melo and Melo's timeline. You are 100% right that because of that the narritive has changed. I am willing to see how we move on from this, starting with the draft and what the team looks like post Melo. Maybe that sounds like "just waiting another year" to you, but if Melo goes its the first year since Ewing left we didnt have a savior or some star player faux player to build around. Its about a team and adding parts. I am looking forward to that and OK with sit through this drama, ESPECIALLY while I see us trying to build and add/develop young guys.
Yes, a ringing endorsement. "Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade."
And if you think KP won't immediately be tabbed the savior role (and hasn't already by some here), I don't know what to tell you.
Like I said, I can't wait til Melo is traded, because then Phil finally has no more excuses. I'm actually wondering if Phil will even trade his safety net away. It's a risky move.
No. You didnt make a ringing endorsement. It was a wait and see reaction. Far different than "giving up on Grant was the last straw" which is what you said earlier.
I doubt there will ever be a last straw for me. I love the Knicks and want them to be good. It doesn't mean I lie to myself and pretend to be excited about the job Phil has done here.
Actually its me. I admit it. I am excited about the prospect of moving forward with a Phil created team post Melo/Rose. I am excited to see how the coach looks with a young roster and no veteran players with egos who only play a certain way to cater to. I am indeed excited about that. I also understand it will probably result in another 30ish win season which is what it is. I do believe we see an uptick in next year's win total and style of play, but lets wait and see. I am also excited to see the new Marvel movies. These days the excitement levels are about the same. Rebuilding sucks. Its tough. It means bad play and losing stretches, but its how foundations are built. I didnt expect it to be mistake free. I am ok with "the plan" moving forward.
Actually, I guess what I'm really tired of is posters here villifying the likes of Afflalo and Melo and giving Phil a pass. I suppose it's not much a surprise I see it the opposite way - they've been good soldiers for a reeling, plan-changing old man who trashes the very pieces he brought in behind their backs to Charley Rosen over a bowl of good sticky ganja.
I'm not sure how fans can have faith in "the plan" when Phil and co changed the offensive system THREE TIMES this year. First it was Hornacek's Triangle Aspects, then they moved away from the Triangle almost entirely and went with more pick and roll, then after the all-star break it was full on Triangle again. Is it any wonder veterans like Rose and Melo and CLee threw up their hands in disgust and just tried to play the game the way they always had?
If "the plan" going forward is full on Triangle, great. It hasn't worked in the league in years, it bombed in Minnesota, it's bombed terribly here whenever it is actually being run. I don't have much faith in it working, but at least be consistent about it, for god's sake.
If you want to assess responsibility it lies all around. It lies with Phil for assembling this roster. It lies with the coach for not having players on the same page. It lies with the players who underperformed or put their own brands or agendas before what is best for the team and it lies with the owner who created this environment in the first place which would merit needing to pay Phil Jackson $12mm a year in the first place.
So while we can argue who shoulders the most responsibility lets just pass on that for now and agree that responsibility for this failure can be shared all around, whether it be more on Phil or not.
What can you do moving forward? The owner is here to stay. That leaves the players and Phil. Again, regardless of blame at some point the marriage between Phil and Melo took a bad turn and went toxic. One has to go. So I look at value, performance, implications of one staying and one leaving... what do I see?
I see a player who puts himself first and doesnt play a brand of basketball that will even win anything but an early exit or god forbid a trip to round 2.
I see a GM who has fumbled through rosters and coaches and gave the money player money, only to realize this isnt the guy. I also see a GM who has stayed pretty flexible, not wasted future assets doubling down on mistakes and a GM who is very active in developing young players and using the draft.
So when I step back and look at everything wrong with this whole picture I dont hyper focus on triangle, Jose or what Rodman, Shaq or Pippin have to say. I simply see that the chance of the Knicks ever competing for a title with Mel on this roster as ZERO. So being that does it make sense to keep him? Does he help our youth development? Does he lead or play in ways I want rubbing off on my young players? As a veteran are his needs in line with the best direction for the team?
See how this works? Its not Phil camp or Melo camp. Its also not giving Phil a pass or being excited about anything he's done. Is what it is. Clarity.
nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:The prevailing point of view from the players, if you look at Jennings, KP and Melo's comments were that management and specifically Phil, affected on court play with his antics...Charlie Rosen article and tweets didn't help cultivate an environment that leads to winning, it distracted the team...Knicks were 14-10 when all this started...It's a very WEAK argument IMO. Phil calling for more ball movement should not cause a group of seasoned vets to fall apart!!! This is just excuse making at its worst. DO YOUR DAMNED JOB!!!
Move the ball and play some D! This is all that they had to do.That's your narrative..They called a meeting to tell Phil they will moved away from running the triangle..Phil, according to the players, "took it well"...Until he didn't, and lashed out in the media...So you can promote your narrative, which isn't accurate...
Is this comment so bad that it should completely destroy a team???
"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-j..."Carmelo a lot of times wants to hold the ball longer than — we have a rule: If you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold it for three, four, five seconds, and then everybody comes to a stop,” Jackson said on Tuesday. “That is one of the things we work with. But he’s adjusted to (the triangle), he knows what he can do and he’s willing to see its success.”
Yep, it's ridiculous how overblown Phil's comments have become.melo is so soft when it comes to criticism- imagine if he'd played for JVG!
smackeddog wrote:nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:The prevailing point of view from the players, if you look at Jennings, KP and Melo's comments were that management and specifically Phil, affected on court play with his antics...Charlie Rosen article and tweets didn't help cultivate an environment that leads to winning, it distracted the team...Knicks were 14-10 when all this started...It's a very WEAK argument IMO. Phil calling for more ball movement should not cause a group of seasoned vets to fall apart!!! This is just excuse making at its worst. DO YOUR DAMNED JOB!!!
Move the ball and play some D! This is all that they had to do.That's your narrative..They called a meeting to tell Phil they will moved away from running the triangle..Phil, according to the players, "took it well"...Until he didn't, and lashed out in the media...So you can promote your narrative, which isn't accurate...
Is this comment so bad that it should completely destroy a team???
"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-j..."Carmelo a lot of times wants to hold the ball longer than — we have a rule: If you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold it for three, four, five seconds, and then everybody comes to a stop,” Jackson said on Tuesday. “That is one of the things we work with. But he’s adjusted to (the triangle), he knows what he can do and he’s willing to see its success.”
Yep, it's ridiculous how overblown Phil's comments have become.melo is so soft when it comes to criticism- imagine if he'd played for JVG!
How is Melo soft on criticism??..He has played well through it and put up some spectacular numbers during the criticism..January and Feb #s were like 25 and 6...Many people have commented on this and the way he has handled the press ..It's the rest of the team that have collapsed...
crzymdups wrote:Then he hired Hornacek, the Rose trade happened, he signed Noah and CLee and all the sudden we were no longer rebuilding and going with the Triangle.Again... saving blame. We know after the KP/Lopez/Grant/etc season that Phil sat down with Melo to ask the famous question "Are we moving fast enough for you?"
Then Rose trade
Noah
Lee
Jennings
How much of an impact did that conversation have?
What prompted those moves?
If Melo is not on this roster do you think Phil still makes those trades/signings?
Honest questions... You see it as Melo blame. In reality you are denying just how bid an impact Melo has on what happens here and that we simply need to move on from that influence as its the last standing obstacle (with Dolan's interference allegedly removed)
crzymdups wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Who is asking you to do that? Who is doing that here? (Dont mention Nix, he doesnt count).fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Well while the KNicks are struggling with a young team you can post Melo's scoring lines every night as he helps catapult the Clippers to another 2nd round exit.... if it makes you feel better.fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt
Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.
Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.
Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?
THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.
How's his defense?
WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?
Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.
Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.
Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.
If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)
There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.
2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.
2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.
2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.
2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD
Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.
But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.
Your take on the Rose trade:crzymdups wrote:Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade. What's our cap look like for this summer now?I loved DRose as a player back in the day. Not sure what he has left in the tank at this rate.
It'll be interesting. With Hornacek running things... could be very interesting. Hornacek got his 28yr old PG.
Curious to hear Melo's reaction...
That doesnt read like your pretty pissed about giving up on Grant. Sure does sound like you see some logic at the time behind this.Again the REAL problem is trying to build around Melo and Melo's timeline. You are 100% right that because of that the narritive has changed. I am willing to see how we move on from this, starting with the draft and what the team looks like post Melo. Maybe that sounds like "just waiting another year" to you, but if Melo goes its the first year since Ewing left we didnt have a savior or some star player faux player to build around. Its about a team and adding parts. I am looking forward to that and OK with sit through this drama, ESPECIALLY while I see us trying to build and add/develop young guys.
Yes, a ringing endorsement. "Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade."
And if you think KP won't immediately be tabbed the savior role (and hasn't already by some here), I don't know what to tell you.
Like I said, I can't wait til Melo is traded, because then Phil finally has no more excuses. I'm actually wondering if Phil will even trade his safety net away. It's a risky move.
No. You didnt make a ringing endorsement. It was a wait and see reaction. Far different than "giving up on Grant was the last straw" which is what you said earlier.
I doubt there will ever be a last straw for me. I love the Knicks and want them to be good. It doesn't mean I lie to myself and pretend to be excited about the job Phil has done here.
Actually its me. I admit it. I am excited about the prospect of moving forward with a Phil created team post Melo/Rose. I am excited to see how the coach looks with a young roster and no veteran players with egos who only play a certain way to cater to. I am indeed excited about that. I also understand it will probably result in another 30ish win season which is what it is. I do believe we see an uptick in next year's win total and style of play, but lets wait and see. I am also excited to see the new Marvel movies. These days the excitement levels are about the same. Rebuilding sucks. Its tough. It means bad play and losing stretches, but its how foundations are built. I didnt expect it to be mistake free. I am ok with "the plan" moving forward.
Actually, I guess what I'm really tired of is posters here villifying the likes of Afflalo and Melo and giving Phil a pass. I suppose it's not much a surprise I see it the opposite way - they've been good soldiers for a reeling, plan-changing old man who trashes the very pieces he brought in behind their backs to Charley Rosen over a bowl of good sticky ganja.
I'm not sure how fans can have faith in "the plan" when Phil and co changed the offensive system THREE TIMES this year. First it was Hornacek's Triangle Aspects, then they moved away from the Triangle almost entirely and went with more pick and roll, then after the all-star break it was full on Triangle again. Is it any wonder veterans like Rose and Melo and CLee threw up their hands in disgust and just tried to play the game the way they always had?
If "the plan" going forward is full on Triangle, great. It hasn't worked in the league in years, it bombed in Minnesota, it's bombed terribly here whenever it is actually being run. I don't have much faith in it working, but at least be consistent about it, for god's sake.
when in need, "Break glass and use Rambis to futher argument".....
Phil's last year coaching was 7 years ago. Won a chip. "years ago....."!!!!
It bombed in Minny. Why? We been over that. Kahn, who passed over Steph Curry TWICE!!! Rambis was stupid to take that job. Not saying he did a good job, not saying anyone could have. But one could argue it if you look a the facts. Look at the facts. Not to defend your position. But to be accurate. Then install the concept things are subjective sometimes.
I undertand Rubio at the time was a hot commodity, but Jonny Flynn?? Ouch.
You know, not everyone pro phil is anti Melo. Many of us are just like "Tick-Tock....Time to move. WE can lose plenty with or without Melo for a host of reasons. There are some that just think knicks made a bad call trading picks to hurry the process of surrounding melo with players to be successful. This predates Phil. This is why he gets patience.
You want to hyper argue Phil as the culprit and melo was not the reason.
Actually if you calm down you would have noticed.
As for the triangle, since no other team dares to try, I find that intriguing.
Since you can't really say who the Next guy would be, I don't know why you get excited.
Steve MIlls is the GM of the knicks. I would think he would be elevated to President. Steve mills is a very smart guy and well respected by many. Not by you. YOu want what all media fed fans want and that's for someone to come for your EMOTIONAL RESCUE.
Verse two:
Don't you know promises were never meant to keep?
Just like the night, they dissolve off in sleep
I'll be your savior, steadfast and true
I'll come to your emotional rescue
I'll come to your emotional rescue
Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh
Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh
Yeah, the other night, cryin', cryin' baby yeah I'm cryin
Yeah I'm cryin, I'm your child baby, child,
Yeah I'm a child, I'm a child, I'm a child