Knicks · Woj on KP and Phil and the Triangle (page 8)

crzymdups wrote:Good podcast with Bobby Marks talking about all this stuff

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On the podcast -

Chris Mannix said he was talking to Caron Butler over the weekend and "every single player in the NBA has noticed how Phil Jackson has treated Melo."

You can say Phil didn't do that much blah blah blah... players have noticed. Obviously money talks, and if we overpay a guy like Noah he's going to come. But if we're competing for another free agent - it's close between two teams or something - the way Phil has acted will definitely be a part of the decision. Which is sad, because I think we all thought it'd be the exact opposite and that all things being equal, Phil could be the determining factor in our favor.

I'm trying to think of a free agent of sttature we had a chance with to begin with.
There was no way a good free agent was coming to the Knicks for less money on a 30 win team.

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Good podcast with Bobby Marks talking about all this stuff

Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/TheVertical/status/854355624703995904

Click here to view the Tweet

On the podcast -

Chris Mannix said he was talking to Caron Butler over the weekend and "every single player in the NBA has noticed how Phil Jackson has treated Melo."

You can say Phil didn't do that much blah blah blah... players have noticed. Obviously money talks, and if we overpay a guy like Noah he's going to come. But if we're competing for another free agent - it's close between two teams or something - the way Phil has acted will definitely be a part of the decision. Which is sad, because I think we all thought it'd be the exact opposite and that all things being equal, Phil could be the determining factor in our favor.

This isn't likely to be an issue. The Knicks aren't really big buyers at this point. They know that this is gonna be a rebuild and most top FA's aren't coming to a rebuild. It's going to take a special circumstance to get one of the better FA's. MAYBE if they can convince Jrue to come play with his brother if we throw a few more dollars Justin's way.

nyknickzingis wrote:I'm trying to think of a free agent of sttature we had a chance with to begin with.
There was no way a good free agent was coming to the Knicks for less money on a 30 win team.

Phil originally said they intended to build in free agency because he knew the draft pick situation and the cap was going up so much. He had serious hopes of getting LaMarcus or DeAndre or even Greg Monroe...

I think a lot of us thought they could win some games and make it look like an attractive destination... that didn't happen.

Anyway, the Garden was toxic long before Phil, which is why we only got Amar'e by guaranteeing his 5yr deal back in the summer of 2010, but I think a lot of us hoped he could improve that atmosphere. I don't know if anything can while Dolan is in charge, no matter how low profile he keeps it.

Will have to trust that other players will gather their information before just siding with Melo because he's a fellow and likeable player for many. There are players that will notice that he does hold the ball, command the offense to be run around him and doesn't play defense much. So yes, we will miss out on some - but I believe the players with intelligence, character and non-followers will make their own determination. Coincidentally, those seem like the type of players that would do well in organized system basketball. Loyalty to your guy or think and decide for yourself? Guess we'll see...

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:Don't beleive me, then "Ask WOJ"......
WOJ reports, WOJ is not the authority.
Woj is a good reporter, but he does not validate.

Phil never tore down a team, nor built one. So really what should the expectations have been? Is that the problem? Expectations?
Its new york, its starphuch city. WE bought in Melo to be a savior and we did with Phil.
One is a player, one is an exec. Phil has a history of saying arrogant awful things.

http://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/10-of-p...

And most of it is true. Its rude. Phil might be a bit on the spectrum. Successful people are not always nice.

The problem isn't expectations but results.

But you thought Coach Jeff was going to put a new shine on the offense.
You see what you want, but maybe Phil saw something that was not good even though we were winning. Winning against good teams? were we just a hot shooting team and when that gets cold, then what?
You take some personal elements and interject your own thought. You say pHil was disrupted and disrespected Jeff, but you were not there?
Really, this is a season where defense was not properly executed. A championship coach knows if the fundamentals of a team are not strong, it will unravel.
You or I did not see things. We saw some results. Was it sustainable? In hindsight, I don't know.
Do you like KP taking so many shots 6 feet from the three pt line? Or Melo not moving without the ball? Can PHil trust Fish? He obviously could not. Can he trust Jeff? He hired him. Jeff knew Phil would be coming on the court. If you have a problem with that, then don't sign the contract. Same with Melo. Don't like playing defense or the triangle, then go to Bulls or Lakers.
NTC should have been a lifestyle thing, not leverage to not play the way your employer wants you to.

Fish was caving to puzzy and a god awful first two year win loss record. I did not know the undertones of his personal life, and I was hoping on the court he'd eventually be a good coach!!!

So its all about our expectations. Your points come from your expectations. Your as much uniformed as the rest of us, but far more than most fans.
You got stamina.

the bold. Thats it 100%. Some things you can fix. Others you cant.

What about Derrick Rose who Phil brought in and said the Triangle made no sense and was "random basketball"... is that on Melo? Or is that on Phil for bringing him in? Or is it on Phil for forcing his offense on him?

Look, obviously it's time to move on from Melo. But dear god, there's a lot of other problems here.

Right... so thats how team building works. Is it your expectation that every player who Phil brings in is a perfect fit for the system the coach runs? Of course Rose didnt work out. Now as far as your quote.. he also said he wants to come back to "redeem" himself. Does that sound like a guy who thinks the system is broken? Or a guy who feels like he didnt play well but could... ?

Again.. you simply cant get past blame. Its literally all you hear. You seem honestly incapable of reading and understanding anything that doesnt simply say "this is all Phil's fault." Any suggestion otherwise puts you on immediate tilt.

We are talking about what needs to happen to if Phil is going to have any hope of turning this around. That hope starts with defense first and foremost. After that the offense they want to work with requires ball movement.

Of all the Knicks who defends the least?
Of all the Knicks who holds the ball the most?
Of all the Knicks who is least likely to improve in these areas?

Blame blame blame... Its all Phil's fault. Buck stops here remember? Fine. Your only defense of Melo is that you are upset Phil isnt getting the blame he deserves. That is literally the single point that has your head in the sand. Let me know when you are happy with the amount of blame assessed to Phil and we can get back to talking about how to rebuild the Knicks.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:Don't beleive me, then "Ask WOJ"......
WOJ reports, WOJ is not the authority.
Woj is a good reporter, but he does not validate.

Phil never tore down a team, nor built one. So really what should the expectations have been? Is that the problem? Expectations?
Its new york, its starphuch city. WE bought in Melo to be a savior and we did with Phil.
One is a player, one is an exec. Phil has a history of saying arrogant awful things.

http://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/10-of-p...

And most of it is true. Its rude. Phil might be a bit on the spectrum. Successful people are not always nice.

The problem isn't expectations but results.

But you thought Coach Jeff was going to put a new shine on the offense.
You see what you want, but maybe Phil saw something that was not good even though we were winning. Winning against good teams? were we just a hot shooting team and when that gets cold, then what?
You take some personal elements and interject your own thought. You say pHil was disrupted and disrespected Jeff, but you were not there?
Really, this is a season where defense was not properly executed. A championship coach knows if the fundamentals of a team are not strong, it will unravel.
You or I did not see things. We saw some results. Was it sustainable? In hindsight, I don't know.
Do you like KP taking so many shots 6 feet from the three pt line? Or Melo not moving without the ball? Can PHil trust Fish? He obviously could not. Can he trust Jeff? He hired him. Jeff knew Phil would be coming on the court. If you have a problem with that, then don't sign the contract. Same with Melo. Don't like playing defense or the triangle, then go to Bulls or Lakers.
NTC should have been a lifestyle thing, not leverage to not play the way your employer wants you to.

Fish was caving to puzzy and a god awful first two year win loss record. I did not know the undertones of his personal life, and I was hoping on the court he'd eventually be a good coach!!!

So its all about our expectations. Your points come from your expectations. Your as much uniformed as the rest of us, but far more than most fans.
You got stamina.

the bold. Thats it 100%. Some things you can fix. Others you cant.

What about Derrick Rose who Phil brought in and said the Triangle made no sense and was "random basketball"... is that on Melo? Or is that on Phil for bringing him in? Or is it on Phil for forcing his offense on him?

Look, obviously it's time to move on from Melo. But dear god, there's a lot of other problems here.

Right... so thats how team building works. Is it your expectation that every player who Phil brings in is a perfect fit for the system the coach runs? Of course Rose didnt work out. Now as far as your quote.. he also said he wants to come back to "redeem" himself. Does that sound like a guy who thinks the system is broken? Or a guy who feels like he didnt play well but could... ?

Again.. you simply cant get past blame. Its literally all you hear. You seem honestly incapable of reading and understanding anything that doesnt simply say "this is all Phil's fault." Any suggestion otherwise puts you on immediate tilt.

We are talking about what needs to happen to if Phil is going to have any hope of turning this around. That hope starts with defense first and foremost. After that the offense they want to work with requires ball movement.

Of all the Knicks who defends the least?
Of all the Knicks who holds the ball the most?
Of all the Knicks who is least likely to improve in these areas?

Blame blame blame... Its all Phil's fault. Buck stops here remember? Fine. Your only defense of Melo is that you are upset Phil isnt getting the blame he deserves. That is literally the single point that has your head in the sand. Let me know when you are happy with the amount of blame assessed to Phil and we can get back to talking about how to rebuild the Knicks.

Phil has created the narrative of blame and it has torn this team apart. Do you really deny that? I'm sick of people buying his blame narrative... I think he deserves more than a fair share... the most even. And he nominally took it in the press conference, if you listen to that podcast it's the first thing they mention - he didn't really take blame, it's like one of those times someone says "I'm sorry, but..." it's not a real apology. He blamed Melo for the entire team's struggles, which include a healthy dose of Rose being slow to pick up the system, not moving the ball, not defending, Noah being a washout, KP getting injured and sophomore slumping, Jennings being a zero after a solid first month, etc.

In terms of who defends the least, I would say Rose and it had the biggest impact on the team defense and you saw an uptick there once Baker took over, who is not even really a plus defender, but just a guy who gives effort. Rose was a dead end. And I do think Phil's comments about Rose were meant to leave the door open about a possible return - I think both Phil and Rose realize they could find themselves in a place where both parties are desperate in free agency and Rose back to the Knicks may be the only option...

I don't want to rehash this again. We just need to agree to disagree.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:Don't beleive me, then "Ask WOJ"......
WOJ reports, WOJ is not the authority.
Woj is a good reporter, but he does not validate.

Phil never tore down a team, nor built one. So really what should the expectations have been? Is that the problem? Expectations?
Its new york, its starphuch city. WE bought in Melo to be a savior and we did with Phil.
One is a player, one is an exec. Phil has a history of saying arrogant awful things.

http://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/10-of-p...

And most of it is true. Its rude. Phil might be a bit on the spectrum. Successful people are not always nice.

The problem isn't expectations but results.

But you thought Coach Jeff was going to put a new shine on the offense.
You see what you want, but maybe Phil saw something that was not good even though we were winning. Winning against good teams? were we just a hot shooting team and when that gets cold, then what?
You take some personal elements and interject your own thought. You say pHil was disrupted and disrespected Jeff, but you were not there?
Really, this is a season where defense was not properly executed. A championship coach knows if the fundamentals of a team are not strong, it will unravel.
You or I did not see things. We saw some results. Was it sustainable? In hindsight, I don't know.
Do you like KP taking so many shots 6 feet from the three pt line? Or Melo not moving without the ball? Can PHil trust Fish? He obviously could not. Can he trust Jeff? He hired him. Jeff knew Phil would be coming on the court. If you have a problem with that, then don't sign the contract. Same with Melo. Don't like playing defense or the triangle, then go to Bulls or Lakers.
NTC should have been a lifestyle thing, not leverage to not play the way your employer wants you to.

Fish was caving to puzzy and a god awful first two year win loss record. I did not know the undertones of his personal life, and I was hoping on the court he'd eventually be a good coach!!!

So its all about our expectations. Your points come from your expectations. Your as much uniformed as the rest of us, but far more than most fans.
You got stamina.

the bold. Thats it 100%. Some things you can fix. Others you cant.

What about Derrick Rose who Phil brought in and said the Triangle made no sense and was "random basketball"... is that on Melo? Or is that on Phil for bringing him in? Or is it on Phil for forcing his offense on him?

Look, obviously it's time to move on from Melo. But dear god, there's a lot of other problems here.

Right... so thats how team building works. Is it your expectation that every player who Phil brings in is a perfect fit for the system the coach runs? Of course Rose didnt work out. Now as far as your quote.. he also said he wants to come back to "redeem" himself. Does that sound like a guy who thinks the system is broken? Or a guy who feels like he didnt play well but could... ?

Again.. you simply cant get past blame. Its literally all you hear. You seem honestly incapable of reading and understanding anything that doesnt simply say "this is all Phil's fault." Any suggestion otherwise puts you on immediate tilt.

We are talking about what needs to happen to if Phil is going to have any hope of turning this around. That hope starts with defense first and foremost. After that the offense they want to work with requires ball movement.

Of all the Knicks who defends the least?
Of all the Knicks who holds the ball the most?
Of all the Knicks who is least likely to improve in these areas?

Blame blame blame... Its all Phil's fault. Buck stops here remember? Fine. Your only defense of Melo is that you are upset Phil isnt getting the blame he deserves. That is literally the single point that has your head in the sand. Let me know when you are happy with the amount of blame assessed to Phil and we can get back to talking about how to rebuild the Knicks.

Isn't the answer to all your questions are Rose? Also, Rose wanting to "redeem" himself sounds like a guy trying to make sure he doesn't shut the door on a team that will be billable enough to give him another significant payday. Lastly, if Phil bring Rose back what would that mean to you?