OldFan wrote:The problem is: D-O-L-A-NMelo may be a symptom, Jackson may be a symptom but Dolan is the disease.
This team was awful long before Melo and long before Jackson, those guys are the deck chairs on the Titanic - Dolan is the iceberg.
I have laid out that Dolan, by proxy has done more damage that on the surface over the years. While Phil is the current flavor and has made a few mistakes, what is not discussed is what could he have done better?
Other than Jae Crowder playing back up to Melo, what could have he gotten for tyson, or Shump, or JR? Its just a concept.
My real point is not to argue what is long been done already, but to just say when you look at what Isiah did and what it took to unwind that, only to create another problem its not hard to really fathom that unless you get lucky as hell or want to leverage the future, its a deep problem to retool a franchise that has not had a steady flow of assets for the better part of 17 years.
We are constant that we:
Sell low, buy high. Melo was retained because you have to still sell seats. Phil has a herculean task of undoing years of damage in a media shark infested sea that wants to lay blame and direct anger to sell newspapers or attract eyeballs. He absolves Dolan of his task and takes the body blows until the team is turned around. If this was the main topic of the presser when Phil was hired im sure media would have laughed them off stage!!
martin wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Uptown wrote:nixluva wrote:Uptown wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:crzymdups wrote:Phil said he was going to build the team through free agency in 2015. He had $30m+ that offseason. $30m+ the next offseason. He brought in one two way player who probably comes off the bench on a good team. He can't build a team. I'd love to hear a defense of Phil that doesn't invoke Melo.
Did Melo fire Fisher? Did Melo hire Hornacek? Did Melo make the trades?
Jesus, this goes so far beyond Melo at this point. Melo is just Phil's scapegoat and you dudes are buying it. Phil has lost KP. He's lost him. With the chaotic blame culture Phil has created. With the coaching confusion Phil has created. With the poor rosters Phil has constructed. Phil signed every single person on the court and every single coach.
Make a case for him without saying the word Melo. Or without mentioning teams that Jerry West or Jerry Krause built.
Lopez was a 2 say player, Galloway 2 way player, Lance Thomas 2 way player, KOQ 2 way player, Holiday 2 way player, Lee 2 way player, Noah 2 way player. Ndour & Baker potential 2 way players with 3 point jumpers developed.
With the 30 mil name the players he should have signed who were available and willing to sign over the last 2 years. Who fit what your looking for and would have put this team in the direction you favor.
Forgot to add KP
Just to clarify, if you're a scrappy player, or a RFA, does that equal 2 way player? You can't be serious labeling these guys as 2-way players. They are barely one-way players. Baker and N'Dour are hanging on by a string just to be legit NBA players. KOQ, Holiday and Thomas are scrappy and they def give effort (some more than others) on D, but none of them offer much of anything on the offensive side of the ball when it counts. Noah is broken down so I wont even consider him....
When I think of 2 way players, I think of guys who can not only defend-well, but can actually score the ball...Jimmy butler, Klay, Serge...just to name a few.
Yes but you're also talking about All Star level players!!! Not every 2 way player is gonna be on that level.
2 way players mean you can play-WELL on both sides of the ball! None of the above mentioned players can score the ball at any type of consistent level...
That isn't a realistic expectation. You aren't going to have a team of Butlers and Klays. If you do then you are a Warriors level type of team. Which in other words arguably the best team in the league. The only possible way to have been able to build up to that rare level is to have hit on multiple draft picks and/or hit on a jack pot signing, and/or trade.
We didn't really have much draft picks. Our main route to acquire talent is through FA which Butler, Klay, Kawhai etc all resigned with their teams. Players like Carroll and Bazemore got handed 16-18 mil per contracts.
What is realistic is landing guys like Lance, Holiday, Lee who can play defense on the perimeter as well as knock down 3s (Lee 40%, Lance 45%, Holiday 35%).
We need to hit on some elite 2 way play making talent in the draft as well as the development of KP in that mold in order for it all to come together.
Phil said he and his staff are focused on 2 Way Players. He noted that strong on ball defense is a key talent they'll be looking at!!!
You do realize he said the same thing last year and then went out and traded for Rose and then signed Jennings. Why do you take Phil words to heart when his actions tell a different story?
you do understand that Phil has probably said a lot of things, including what you noted about but also about needing to upgrade the PG spot, getting one that can break down a defense, etc. It was a lot more than just finding an on-ball defender at the PG spot (which he also got in Baker).
Rose was a low risk, high reward player, we all knew this. Imperfect at best. Injury riddled. Former MVP caliber player.
The Knicks were not in the position to acquire a perfect replacement. The risk failed and now we have $20M to spend in its spot.
Some thought Rose was a waste of assets and new his shortcomings. I'm sure people remember the arguments how Calderon is a better defender and has more of an overall impact and everyone wanted him gone. Anyway, let's say everyone thought Rose was a good risk why in the world do you pair him with another of with similar defensive and shooting issues? That's just not smart you need to have a little dichotomy between your 1st and 2nd teamers.
HofstraBBall wrote:fishmike wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:fishmike wrote:http://dailyknicks.com/2017/04/17/knicks...“Right now, we need players that are really active, can play every single play. Defensively and offensively. That’s really important for us. We started to get some players on the floor that can do that, you know, and that’s the direction we have to go.”
It’s unfortunate that such players would be needed to fix the defense, but the numbers support what Jackson is saying.Anthony finished the 2016-17 regular season at No. 418 in the NBA in Defensive Real Plus-Minus. It’s also worth noting that the Knicks allowed 111.1 points per 100 possessions with the 10-time All-Star on the floor.
Of the players who were on the court for at least 1,000 minutes in 2016-17, no player on the Knicks had a worse defensive rating than Anthony.
By comparison, the Knicks had a team-best defensive rating of 104.7 points per 100 possessions with Anthony on the bench. That’s a difference of 6.4 points per 100 possessions, as well as a telling sign of his influence on the defensive end of the floor.
I have been very supportive of Melo over the recent years. There is no more to discuss. His scoring is down. His eff% is down. His rebounding is down. His assists are down. Hell... even his steals are at a career low. Oh... and he's the worst defensive player in the league.
It will be an ugly divorce with lots of unsavory comments and blame. After that basketball will be played, and perhaps.. just *maybe* shots will be contested 
Melo is buddies with everyone in the NBA and in the Knick lockerroom. Of course it will be on Phil, the triangle, Jeff, Dolan, Oak and Rebecca Harlow. If it was on Melo he would have to say "I underperformed" and that does not appear to an option.
Yes its Phil's fault for signing Melo if you need that to be happy. He's also the only one who can fix this. Looks like its going to happen.
Congratulations. You did it again. Amazing discovery. Thank you, we know Melo is not a defensive juggernaut. We know he no longer will fit here. Awesome.
Now please stop using him to defend our real issue. Uncle Phil and his three rosters, 165 losses. Recent show of lack of support by the future of the franchise and the world view of the Knicks.(Yes that includes the NBA and it's players) Funny how in all your great in depth research to find these unknown facts, you failed to notice the very obvious facts above?
Nope. Just focused on what can change and what cant. A preferable option to blind spouting, which is what you do.
Fair enough. What can change? We replace Melo with a 2 way player that is mediocre on offense? How does that equate to change/wins? How does holding Phil accountable for poor decisions not equate to change? So just ignore the Presidents poor judgement and the direction he has us on? Melo is just one player. Phil is the guy that puts an entire team together. Which one's deficiencies affect the team more? Lets just move on. One thing that's not going to change is our opinion about Phil. Will focus on draft and hope for the best.
you play team sports dont you? One guy can make a big difference. People hear "replace Melo" or that he's the main guy that needs to be moved and they assume that is where blame lies. Any dysfunction starts and ends with Phil. There is no doubt and no discussion there. The question is how best to move on from that and onto the culture he was brought in to establish. You must have players that buy in, and the biggest part of the problem when a guy like Melo doesnt buy in is his clout in the locker room. I mean if coach says I need more effort on defense and we see the same old from the star player its not fair to expect the other guys to take that message.
Moving Melo for Austin Rivers and change will not make the Knicks better, will not net more wins and will not make us more talented. It will free up the coaching staff to manage the team a bit more and the personalities less. It will allow the Knicks to evaluate how KP (or another player) looks as a featured scorer. It will push other players to grow.
If Phil makes a good trade (not holding breath) we may also end up with significant additional cap space or some other asset that can help change the makeup of the team. At the end of the day it just comes down to fit. On a team like the Clippers Melo would be lethal. CP3 holding the ball, Blake in the post, Jordan on the boards... Melo would get so many open looks he would be an absolute sniper. I would expect olympic Melo. Its a shame the Knicks only got to see that for really one year, but we were never able to field the kind of team needed to maximize Melo's effectiveness. All hope there ended with the Bargs trade.
Its just about culture. It is anything BUT a given that moving Melo results in this culture change of defense and team first. However it cant happen with him here. Not an easy corner Phil has painted himself into, but a common one in the league. Phil's divorce from Melo will define his tenure here. If it works Phil did out with the old and in with the new. If it fails its more of the same but my fall back is we have our picks and continue to build up the talent base for the next regime.
Anyone have the Knicks' offensive per 100 #s with vs. without Melo? We all knew his defense was bad but I'm wondering about the offense. Or anyone have a link to where you can look at team per 100 possessions with vs. without specific players?
yellowboy90 wrote:martin wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Uptown wrote:nixluva wrote:Uptown wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:crzymdups wrote:Phil said he was going to build the team through free agency in 2015. He had $30m+ that offseason. $30m+ the next offseason. He brought in one two way player who probably comes off the bench on a good team. He can't build a team. I'd love to hear a defense of Phil that doesn't invoke Melo.
Did Melo fire Fisher? Did Melo hire Hornacek? Did Melo make the trades?
Jesus, this goes so far beyond Melo at this point. Melo is just Phil's scapegoat and you dudes are buying it. Phil has lost KP. He's lost him. With the chaotic blame culture Phil has created. With the coaching confusion Phil has created. With the poor rosters Phil has constructed. Phil signed every single person on the court and every single coach.
Make a case for him without saying the word Melo. Or without mentioning teams that Jerry West or Jerry Krause built.
Lopez was a 2 say player, Galloway 2 way player, Lance Thomas 2 way player, KOQ 2 way player, Holiday 2 way player, Lee 2 way player, Noah 2 way player. Ndour & Baker potential 2 way players with 3 point jumpers developed.
With the 30 mil name the players he should have signed who were available and willing to sign over the last 2 years. Who fit what your looking for and would have put this team in the direction you favor.
Forgot to add KP
Just to clarify, if you're a scrappy player, or a RFA, does that equal 2 way player? You can't be serious labeling these guys as 2-way players. They are barely one-way players. Baker and N'Dour are hanging on by a string just to be legit NBA players. KOQ, Holiday and Thomas are scrappy and they def give effort (some more than others) on D, but none of them offer much of anything on the offensive side of the ball when it counts. Noah is broken down so I wont even consider him....
When I think of 2 way players, I think of guys who can not only defend-well, but can actually score the ball...Jimmy butler, Klay, Serge...just to name a few.
Yes but you're also talking about All Star level players!!! Not every 2 way player is gonna be on that level.
2 way players mean you can play-WELL on both sides of the ball! None of the above mentioned players can score the ball at any type of consistent level...
That isn't a realistic expectation. You aren't going to have a team of Butlers and Klays. If you do then you are a Warriors level type of team. Which in other words arguably the best team in the league. The only possible way to have been able to build up to that rare level is to have hit on multiple draft picks and/or hit on a jack pot signing, and/or trade.
We didn't really have much draft picks. Our main route to acquire talent is through FA which Butler, Klay, Kawhai etc all resigned with their teams. Players like Carroll and Bazemore got handed 16-18 mil per contracts.
What is realistic is landing guys like Lance, Holiday, Lee who can play defense on the perimeter as well as knock down 3s (Lee 40%, Lance 45%, Holiday 35%).
We need to hit on some elite 2 way play making talent in the draft as well as the development of KP in that mold in order for it all to come together.
Phil said he and his staff are focused on 2 Way Players. He noted that strong on ball defense is a key talent they'll be looking at!!!
You do realize he said the same thing last year and then went out and traded for Rose and then signed Jennings. Why do you take Phil words to heart when his actions tell a different story?
you do understand that Phil has probably said a lot of things, including what you noted about but also about needing to upgrade the PG spot, getting one that can break down a defense, etc. It was a lot more than just finding an on-ball defender at the PG spot (which he also got in Baker).
Rose was a low risk, high reward player, we all knew this. Imperfect at best. Injury riddled. Former MVP caliber player.
The Knicks were not in the position to acquire a perfect replacement. The risk failed and now we have $20M to spend in its spot.
Some thought Rose was a waste of assets and new his shortcomings. I'm sure people remember the arguments how Calderon is a better defender and has more of an overall impact and everyone wanted him gone. Anyway, let's say everyone thought Rose was a good risk why in the world do you pair him with another of with similar defensive and shooting issues? That's just not smart you need to have a little dichotomy between your 1st and 2nd teamers.
Sometimes with high reward players you don't get a choice? They really don't pop often and you take the warts with the potential.
Bonn1997 wrote:Anyone have the Knicks' offensive per 100 #s with vs. without Melo? We all knew his defense was bad but I'm wondering about the offense. Or anyone have a link to where you can look at team per 100 possessions with vs. without specific players?
I found it. Not sure if this link will work but you have to go to the nba.com team stats and then go to the on/off court summary.
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612752/...The defensive rating with Melo on was 6.4 points per 100 worse than with him off. The offensive rating with him on was 3.9 better.
It's hard to know what to make of the on/off stats since they're affected by the quality of the teammates on the court with you vs. on the court when you're off. They're still one important piece of info. IMO.
