Knicks · who will set culture like this in New York (page 1)
Pat Riley knows what he should do.
Does Jax know what he should do?
samuraiknicks wrote:http://hoopshype.com/2017/04/27/a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-miami-heats-intense-culture/
Pat Riley knows what he should do.
Does Jax know what he should do?
Honesty he made his living off Wade and a bunch of gifts. What's the plan now? I'm gonna put it down now no more rings for Pat the rat.
samuraiknicks wrote:http://hoopshype.com/2017/04/27/a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-miami-heats-intense-culture/I haven't had a chance to read this yet but the Waiters piece on player's tribune was awesome. He has done a great job there.
Pat Riley knows what he should do.
Does Jax know what he should do?
nixluva wrote:Riley has been at this for a long time now. Phil is still new and was handicapped in his 1st 3 years by a lack of picks. I'm glad Dolan is letting Phil finish his contract. Phil has a different mandate as well. He's here not for a 20 year stint but to lay a foundation for the franchise. If Phil is successful in laying that foundation by the end of his deal then he'll have been successful IMO.
agree
nixluva wrote:Riley has been at this for a long time now. Phil is still new and was handicapped in his 1st 3 years by a lack of picks. I'm glad Dolan is letting Phil finish his contract. Phil has a different mandate as well. He's here not for a 20 year stint but to lay a foundation for the franchise. If Phil is successful in laying that foundation by the end of his deal then he'll have been successful IMO.The heat won 30 more games by Riley's second year. He had 1 first rounder (KT) and 1 second rounder during that span.
Vmart wrote:samuraiknicks wrote:http://hoopshype.com/2017/04/27/a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-miami-heats-intense-culture/
Pat Riley knows what he should do.
Does Jax know what he should do?Honesty he made his living off Wade and a bunch of gifts. What's the plan now? I'm gonna put it down now no more rings for Pat the rat.
Still more than the Knicks will ever win.
knickscity wrote:Vmart wrote:samuraiknicks wrote:http://hoopshype.com/2017/04/27/a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-miami-heats-intense-culture/
Pat Riley knows what he should do.
Does Jax know what he should do?Honesty he made his living off Wade and a bunch of gifts. What's the plan now? I'm gonna put it down now no more rings for Pat the rat.
Still more than the Knicks will ever win.
Yeah the Knicks were winning when Riley got there. And winning after he left. But when people compare between Phil and Riley they don't take into consideration the situation he has inherited. Do you realize that Riley took over a team with Rice and Steve Smith on it and he later traded them. To crate a core of Tim Hardaway and Mourning. Also that team had Willis, Gatling and so on. He took over a well talented team. Tell me the talent level Phil took over it was not so great asides from Melo it was a team of role players. And they still role players on other teams.
There is no comparison between Phil and Riley because the situation is absolutely different.
Vmart wrote:the three years before Phil the Knicks were 25 games over .500 overall. The three years before Riles the Heat were 26 games under .500.knickscity wrote:Vmart wrote:samuraiknicks wrote:http://hoopshype.com/2017/04/27/a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-miami-heats-intense-culture/
Pat Riley knows what he should do.
Does Jax know what he should do?Honesty he made his living off Wade and a bunch of gifts. What's the plan now? I'm gonna put it down now no more rings for Pat the rat.
Still more than the Knicks will ever win.Yeah the Knicks were winning when Riley got there. And winning after he left. But when people compare between Phil and Riley they don't take into consideration the situation he has inherited. Do you realize that Riley took over a team with Rice and Steve Smith on it and he later traded them. To crate a core of Tim Hardaway and Mourning. Also that team had Willis, Gatling and so on. He took over a well talented team. Tell me the talent level Phil took over it was not so great asides from Melo it was a team of role players. And they still role players on other teams.
There is no comparison between Phil and Riley because the situation is absolutely different.
CrushAlot wrote:Vmart wrote:the three years before Phil the Knicks were 25 games over .500 overall. The three years before Riles the Heat were 26 games under .500.knickscity wrote:Vmart wrote:samuraiknicks wrote:http://hoopshype.com/2017/04/27/a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-miami-heats-intense-culture/
Pat Riley knows what he should do.
Does Jax know what he should do?Honesty he made his living off Wade and a bunch of gifts. What's the plan now? I'm gonna put it down now no more rings for Pat the rat.
Still more than the Knicks will ever win.Yeah the Knicks were winning when Riley got there. And winning after he left. But when people compare between Phil and Riley they don't take into consideration the situation he has inherited. Do you realize that Riley took over a team with Rice and Steve Smith on it and he later traded them. To crate a core of Tim Hardaway and Mourning. Also that team had Willis, Gatling and so on. He took over a well talented team. Tell me the talent level Phil took over it was not so great asides from Melo it was a team of role players. And they still role players on other teams.
There is no comparison between Phil and Riley because the situation is absolutely different.
Arbitrarily pick 3 years? Why not just one?
martin wrote:Sure. The year prior to Phil the Knicks were 8 games under .500. The next year they were 48 games under .500. The first two years under Phil they were 66 games under .500. The year prior to Riley in Miami they were 18 games under .500. The first year under Riley they were 2 games over .500. The second year they were 40 games over .500.CrushAlot wrote:Vmart wrote:the three years before Phil the Knicks were 25 games over .500 overall. The three years before Riles the Heat were 26 games under .500.knickscity wrote:Vmart wrote:samuraiknicks wrote:http://hoopshype.com/2017/04/27/a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-miami-heats-intense-culture/
Pat Riley knows what he should do.
Does Jax know what he should do?Honesty he made his living off Wade and a bunch of gifts. What's the plan now? I'm gonna put it down now no more rings for Pat the rat.
Still more than the Knicks will ever win.Yeah the Knicks were winning when Riley got there. And winning after he left. But when people compare between Phil and Riley they don't take into consideration the situation he has inherited. Do you realize that Riley took over a team with Rice and Steve Smith on it and he later traded them. To crate a core of Tim Hardaway and Mourning. Also that team had Willis, Gatling and so on. He took over a well talented team. Tell me the talent level Phil took over it was not so great asides from Melo it was a team of role players. And they still role players on other teams.
There is no comparison between Phil and Riley because the situation is absolutely different.
Arbitrarily pick 3 years? Why not just one?
CrushAlot wrote:martin wrote:Sure. The year prior to Phil the Knicks were 8 games under .500. The next year they were 48 games under .500. The first two years under Phil they were 66 games under .500. The year prior to Riley in Miami they were 18 games under .500. The first year under Riley they were 2 games over .500. The second year they were 40 games over .500.CrushAlot wrote:Vmart wrote:the three years before Phil the Knicks were 25 games over .500 overall. The three years before Riles the Heat were 26 games under .500.knickscity wrote:Vmart wrote:samuraiknicks wrote:http://hoopshype.com/2017/04/27/a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-miami-heats-intense-culture/
Pat Riley knows what he should do.
Does Jax know what he should do?Honesty he made his living off Wade and a bunch of gifts. What's the plan now? I'm gonna put it down now no more rings for Pat the rat.
Still more than the Knicks will ever win.Yeah the Knicks were winning when Riley got there. And winning after he left. But when people compare between Phil and Riley they don't take into consideration the situation he has inherited. Do you realize that Riley took over a team with Rice and Steve Smith on it and he later traded them. To crate a core of Tim Hardaway and Mourning. Also that team had Willis, Gatling and so on. He took over a well talented team. Tell me the talent level Phil took over it was not so great asides from Melo it was a team of role players. And they still role players on other teams.
There is no comparison between Phil and Riley because the situation is absolutely different.
Arbitrarily pick 3 years? Why not just one?
Again Situation is different. Riley was able to use talent to trade for talent. Phil is trading role players for role players. When trading role players for role player you get recovering players who were once great and you get a chance to take a shot.
Sustained winning is what you want not the 54 win team that had its wheels fall off because the once carrying the team and leading them get injured and take retirement.
Making the playoffs is easy but to make the playoffs to make a difference and aim for the championship is just another level of talent.
CrushAlot wrote:martin wrote:Sure. The year prior to Phil the Knicks were 8 games under .500. The next year they were 48 games under .500. The first two years under Phil they were 66 games under .500. The year prior to Riley in Miami they were 18 games under .500. The first year under Riley they were 2 games over .500. The second year they were 40 games over .500.CrushAlot wrote:Vmart wrote:the three years before Phil the Knicks were 25 games over .500 overall. The three years before Riles the Heat were 26 games under .500.knickscity wrote:Vmart wrote:samuraiknicks wrote:http://hoopshype.com/2017/04/27/a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-miami-heats-intense-culture/
Pat Riley knows what he should do.
Does Jax know what he should do?Honesty he made his living off Wade and a bunch of gifts. What's the plan now? I'm gonna put it down now no more rings for Pat the rat.
Still more than the Knicks will ever win.Yeah the Knicks were winning when Riley got there. And winning after he left. But when people compare between Phil and Riley they don't take into consideration the situation he has inherited. Do you realize that Riley took over a team with Rice and Steve Smith on it and he later traded them. To crate a core of Tim Hardaway and Mourning. Also that team had Willis, Gatling and so on. He took over a well talented team. Tell me the talent level Phil took over it was not so great asides from Melo it was a team of role players. And they still role players on other teams.
There is no comparison between Phil and Riley because the situation is absolutely different.
Arbitrarily pick 3 years? Why not just one?
Phil clearly went to clean house! He made that clear when he said he was gonna see who the Learners were. When they didn't respond he shipped them out. Besides this isn't a race. This organization was not on track for anything when Phil got here. The W/L record was a mirage before Phil but it means nothing at this point. 54 wins! 37! None of that means anything.
Phil has been trying to reset the team. Building up the D League, scouts, coaches and of course the roster. This is getting closer to synchronicity with every step. Phil and Jeff have gotten to a good place. Now he's got to straighten out KP and try to move Melo. Then things can really start improving at a faster rate.
Vmart wrote:CrushAlot wrote:martin wrote:Sure. The year prior to Phil the Knicks were 8 games under .500. The next year they were 48 games under .500. The first two years under Phil they were 66 games under .500. The year prior to Riley in Miami they were 18 games under .500. The first year under Riley they were 2 games over .500. The second year they were 40 games over .500.CrushAlot wrote:Vmart wrote:the three years before Phil the Knicks were 25 games over .500 overall. The three years before Riles the Heat were 26 games under .500.knickscity wrote:Vmart wrote:samuraiknicks wrote:http://hoopshype.com/2017/04/27/a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-miami-heats-intense-culture/
Pat Riley knows what he should do.
Does Jax know what he should do?Honesty he made his living off Wade and a bunch of gifts. What's the plan now? I'm gonna put it down now no more rings for Pat the rat.
Still more than the Knicks will ever win.Yeah the Knicks were winning when Riley got there. And winning after he left. But when people compare between Phil and Riley they don't take into consideration the situation he has inherited. Do you realize that Riley took over a team with Rice and Steve Smith on it and he later traded them. To crate a core of Tim Hardaway and Mourning. Also that team had Willis, Gatling and so on. He took over a well talented team. Tell me the talent level Phil took over it was not so great asides from Melo it was a team of role players. And they still role players on other teams.
There is no comparison between Phil and Riley because the situation is absolutely different.
Arbitrarily pick 3 years? Why not just one?
Again Situation is different. Riley was able to use talent to trade for talent. Phil is trading role players for role players. When trading role players for role player you get recovering players who were once great and you get a chance to take a shot.
Sustained winning is what you want not the 54 win team that had its wheels fall off because the once carrying the team and leading them get injured and take retirement.
Making the playoffs is easy but to make the playoffs to make a difference and aim for the championship is just another level of talent.
Phil traded Tyson and Felton for guys that are out of the league or barely in the league. Phil traded Jr and Shump for undrafted guys that were 12th men. The Hardaway trade wasn't necessarily bad but then trading Grant and Rolo for Rose was really bad. If Riles was trading players because he was done with them and didn't care what he got back he wouldn;'t have built a winner. If Riles traded guys and didn't realize that the guys he was getting back weren't good, were old, slow, bad defenders, had deficits that couldn't be overcome etc., you would say he was a bad judge of talent and he would not have been able to turn his team around. Phil was given Dolan's approval to handle basketball decisions with autonomy. He hasn't done a good job to date.
samuraiknicks wrote:http://hoopshype.com/2017/04/27/a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-miami-heats-intense-culture/
Pat Riley knows what he should do.
Does Jax know what he should do?
Talk to any DEA agent on a raid, and guess what is on EVERY SINGLE WALL of EVERY SINGLE PLACE THEY RAID?
A Scarface poster. Al Pacino. First you get the money, then you get the power. Have a good trip... to the resurrection. All he has is his balls and his word, and he breaks neither for no one.
Riley appeals to the wannabe gangster in every wayward NBA player who is young and impressionable. Cam Newton created a stir during the Combine before his draft by going in length to talk about, not being the best football player possible, but to be an "icon" Magic Johnson's son, who has accomplished nothing outside of being Magics son, talked extensively in an interview about wanting to be a public figure, a public celebrity who influences people.
Can't just be a great basketball player. That's not enough. STAT has to take wine baths and wear robes to film festivals, instead of doing things like working on his defense. Melo shows up with stupid hat after stupid hat, without a care that his team lost the game. Muggsey Bogues used to say his coaches on the Hornets would go nuts, because they couldn't get any work done with the players before games because pre-game, it all turned into a fashion show, with players showing up and showing off their new clothes and suits.
On ESPN's First Take, Chris Broussard called an NBA player a "cornball brother" Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith took turns calling Bosh - Christina Bosh.
Kevin McHale might have been the best low post player ever, aside from Hakeem and George Mikan, but do you think players want to have that elite footwork and be able to score with close contact in the paint. Doesn't get you a big endorsement deal. Doesn't sell shoes. Refs aren't going shade calls for you because you aren't dating a pop star.
Riley and his slicked back hair appeals to the attention starved narcissistic wannabe thug life part time rap star wish I was a movie star and had my own cologne type idiot who would rather do that than simply be damn good at the game of basketball and win.
The Knicks would simply be more interesting to players around the league if Leo DiCaprio was a part owner. If Clooney and Pitt showed up courtside wearing Knicks gear. If the Knicks changed their colors to teal and black. If Phil Jackson got his own reality show and shot up a nightclub with a shotgun and beat Jeannie Buss to a pulp for talking back to him.
Think about how sad that is, if Lance Thomas started banging Jennifer Lawrence, he'd be an NBA All Star.
Riley and his schtick appeals to everything NOT TO DO WITH ACTUAL BASKETBALL but more to do with the kind of G-ed up wannabe swagger a bunch of young millionaires thinks should define them as brands instead of human beings.
The Warriors play the right way. They built smart and did it despite the NBA rigging lotteries around them, and yet the league does everything it can to push LBJ and try to cheat the GSW out of everything it can. What does that say about the game itself?
Does Dion Waiters care about Riley's BBIQ or acumen? He cares more about the slick suit and how Riley would fit right in a scene from Goodfellas or The Sopranos.
What do the Knicks need? They need a player like Tim Duncan. Who is a star, but doesn't need to drop the mic and doesn't need to keep all eyez on ME! all the time. Melo would rather have handbags with his face on them than win basketball games and some people wonder why he eats so much public criticism?
And it would all be something people could ignore if it just didn't poison the game so much. Iman Shumpert is going to drop a new track, you know, instead of working on his 3 point shot.
Riley doesn't do more to get respect or garner authority. He doesn't have some secret formula. He just appeals to the parts of nimrod players who don't want to care about the very thing that got them that fame and money in the first place. How can these guys spend time in NY, not see what happened to Tiki Barber, and not see the cautionary tale in place?
Those Scarface posters are going nowhere. Now all Riley has to do is show up to interviews with players with a caged tiger in the background and leopardskin on the walls.
CrushAlot wrote:Vmart wrote:CrushAlot wrote:martin wrote:Sure. The year prior to Phil the Knicks were 8 games under .500. The next year they were 48 games under .500. The first two years under Phil they were 66 games under .500. The year prior to Riley in Miami they were 18 games under .500. The first year under Riley they were 2 games over .500. The second year they were 40 games over .500.CrushAlot wrote:Vmart wrote:the three years before Phil the Knicks were 25 games over .500 overall. The three years before Riles the Heat were 26 games under .500.knickscity wrote:Vmart wrote:samuraiknicks wrote:http://hoopshype.com/2017/04/27/a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-miami-heats-intense-culture/
Pat Riley knows what he should do.
Does Jax know what he should do?Honesty he made his living off Wade and a bunch of gifts. What's the plan now? I'm gonna put it down now no more rings for Pat the rat.
Still more than the Knicks will ever win.Yeah the Knicks were winning when Riley got there. And winning after he left. But when people compare between Phil and Riley they don't take into consideration the situation he has inherited. Do you realize that Riley took over a team with Rice and Steve Smith on it and he later traded them. To crate a core of Tim Hardaway and Mourning. Also that team had Willis, Gatling and so on. He took over a well talented team. Tell me the talent level Phil took over it was not so great asides from Melo it was a team of role players. And they still role players on other teams.
There is no comparison between Phil and Riley because the situation is absolutely different.
Arbitrarily pick 3 years? Why not just one?
Again Situation is different. Riley was able to use talent to trade for talent. Phil is trading role players for role players. When trading role players for role player you get recovering players who were once great and you get a chance to take a shot.
Sustained winning is what you want not the 54 win team that had its wheels fall off because the once carrying the team and leading them get injured and take retirement.
Making the playoffs is easy but to make the playoffs to make a difference and aim for the championship is just another level of talent.
Phil traded Tyson and Felton for guys that are out of the league or barely in the league. Phil traded Jr and Shump for undrafted guys that were 12th men. The Hardaway trade wasn't necessarily bad but then trading Grant and Rolo for Rose was really bad. If Riles was trading players because he was done with them and didn't care what he got back he wouldn;'t have built a winner. If Riles traded guys and didn't realize that the guys he was getting back weren't good, were old, slow, bad defenders, had deficits that couldn't be overcome etc., you would say he was a bad judge of talent and he would not have been able to turn his team around. Phil was given Dolan's approval to handle basketball decisions with autonomy. He hasn't done a good job to date.
Phil was still dealt a bad hand. Plus nobody wants to be here plus nobody wants our players. He's tired and failed to make trades with risk reward guys. I can live with that because it's not like Phil had deals where he could get alonzo mourning and Tim Hardaway. The only way we can get a chance at star players is through the draft. Phil has at least done that. We have to stay that course. The right move is to stick with Phil until his contract is out. He's trying to get well rounded team oriented players. Not every rebuild is going to be 1 or two seasons. Phil had 3 so far... our future is bright still. Patience is needed
Has phil? Of course.
But the notion that Phil broke up a winning formula is laughable. Knicks 54 win team was like putting oatmeal in the radiator to stop a leak. it worked, but you know it won't last. The next year they won 37 and the Bargnani trade was our big shot in the arm. Bad.
Phil was a bought in to rebuild the car. to take the radiator out, one has to remove a lot more parts as well. When you do that, you see the water pump is starting to go, so why not replace that (Tyson), then why put back rotting hoses? you replace them (JR), and the clamps that have some rust on it (Shump). Since not all parts are readily available, sometime times you go with a temporary fix, like Jose. You get the drift.
If you judge phil on the short view then perhaps in ones mind its a valid "Failure". Its like rebuilding a house on Demo day and your screaming "Look its now worse!!!" Naturally we all know you have to tear it down before you rebuild. What we can't see is the future because team construction is not like a building, its far more abstract. Its ignorant to not consider that just because you can't see it, it will never happen.
When riles tears it down he has a 22 executive career for fans to say "He did it before"......and that breeds confidence. Funny is the conditions are always different and sometimes Riley did not get it right. Luck sometimes plays into it, like getting a high pick and its Beasley. You take whats there sometimes.
Nalod wrote:Riles been top dog in Miami for 22 years. Big body or work. he had some miserable years and make some mistakes too. They all do.
Has phil? Of course.But the notion that Phil broke up a winning formula is laughable. Knicks 54 win team was like putting oatmeal in the radiator to stop a leak. it worked, but you know it won't last. The next year they won 37 and the Bargnani trade was our big shot in the arm. Bad.
Phil was a bought in to rebuild the car. to take the radiator out, one has to remove a lot more parts as well. When you do that, you see the water pump is starting to go, so why not replace that (Tyson), then why put back rotting hoses? you replace them (JR), and the clamps that have some rust on it (Shump). Since not all parts are readily available, sometime times you go with a temporary fix, like Jose. You get the drift.
If you judge phil on the short view then perhaps in ones mind its a valid "Failure". Its like rebuilding a house on Demo day and your screaming "Look its now worse!!!" Naturally we all know you have to tear it down before you rebuild. What we can't see is the future because team construction is not like a building, its far more abstract. Its ignorant to not consider that just because you can't see it, it will never happen.
When riles tears it down he has a 22 executive career for fans to say "He did it before"......and that breeds confidence. Funny is the conditions are always different and sometimes Riley did not get it right. Luck sometimes plays into it, like getting a high pick and its Beasley. You take whats there sometimes.
Great post!
Nalod wrote:Riles been top dog in Miami for 22 years. Big body or work. he had some miserable years and make some mistakes too. They all do.I don't think anyone said Phil broke up a winning formula. I do think asking the question, who is going to set the culture is a good one. Currently, the Knicks have had three roster resets. Their future franchise player skipped his exit meeting and is talking about winning being a priority. Management and the coaching staff switched offenses again in February. Team defense is horrible. Most of the players being credited with 'getting it' are undrafted guys playing for their next contract. Mannix on his podcast recently was talking about how no players want anything to do with NY because of how Phil has handled the Melo situation. You can hate Melo and love that Phil said bad things about him but other players hear that and want no part of it. I don't think there is anyone here that doesn't want the Knicks to win. But I am surprised that when the path that has been taken so far by Phil is questioned and referred to as needing to blame someone.
Has phil? Of course.But the notion that Phil broke up a winning formula is laughable. Knicks 54 win team was like putting oatmeal in the radiator to stop a leak. it worked, but you know it won't last. The next year they won 37 and the Bargnani trade was our big shot in the arm. Bad.
Phil was a bought in to rebuild the car. to take the radiator out, one has to remove a lot more parts as well. When you do that, you see the water pump is starting to go, so why not replace that (Tyson), then why put back rotting hoses? you replace them (JR), and the clamps that have some rust on it (Shump). Since not all parts are readily available, sometime times you go with a temporary fix, like Jose. You get the drift.
If you judge phil on the short view then perhaps in ones mind its a valid "Failure". Its like rebuilding a house on Demo day and your screaming "Look its now worse!!!" Naturally we all know you have to tear it down before you rebuild. What we can't see is the future because team construction is not like a building, its far more abstract. Its ignorant to not consider that just because you can't see it, it will never happen.
When riles tears it down he has a 22 executive career for fans to say "He did it before"......and that breeds confidence. Funny is the conditions are always different and sometimes Riley did not get it right. Luck sometimes plays into it, like getting a high pick and its Beasley. You take whats there sometimes.
It isn't a culture change without winning. Dont believe organizationally, the Knicks have the people to do it. If they did, we would have started turning things around by now, headed in the right direction in the win column.
Thats what will attract stars, and that's what will keep them. Is the organization doing everything to foster that type of culture? The win column says no. Until they do its just talk of a culture change without really having one.