Knicks · The case for Markelle Fultz (page 1)

In the 2015 we had a very good series of these 'the case for' threads, but they haven't quite take off yet- I think there's only one for DSJ, so I will post a controversial one.

The idea behind this is trading KP to the Celtics for the no 1 pick. Celtics are looking to improve their front court and add an "all star type" player- I think they'd definitely consider KP. I never thought I'd even entertain the idea of trading KP, however his diva antics have me concerned and his decision that he's going to do whatever he likes training wise this offseason has me worried. Boxing? Really? Wasn't impressed when Tim Thomas did it and he just ended up looking stupid- came back more muscley but had completely lost his shot. Top it off with the fact KP is already in tears and threatening to leave at the end of his contract AND at the same time has threatened not to re-sign if he is traded to a team has really really annoyed me- all this coming from a second year player.

In todays league, the PG spot and backcourt seem to be more important than PF/C- trading KP for Fultz immediately, and finally, gives us a potential elite PG, who can shoot, pass, create and defend- he has no huge flaws. I like his quiet but determined attitude (refreshing after all the diva's we've had lately). Drafting him with Boston's no.1 means we still have our no.8 pick, so we could either use that to replace KP with Markkanen or Isaac (if he fell), or we could select Monk and roll with a dynamic, Wizards esq backcourt.

Of course the risk is you trade KP and he takes the next step with Boston, then Fultz doesn't pan out.

Here are some vids:

Fultz has ideal physical tools for a point guard, standing 6'4 (possibly 6'5) in shoes with a massive 6'10 wingspan. He has big hands, a strong frame, and a shifty, herky-jerky style athlete who is quick off his feet and can play above the rim in space.

Fultz is a tantalizingly gifted shot-creator, sporting an extraordinary combination of body control, ball-handling, footwork and pace. He changes speeds, directions and uses both hands innately, spinning off opponents, splitting ball-screens frequently, and finishing with euro-steps. He combines his ability to get wherever he wants on the floor with outstanding shot-making prowess off the dribble, making 42% of his pull-up jumpers on the season, with his 1.02 PPP ranking second best among draft prospects.

At his best with the ball in his hands, Fultz ranked as the second most efficient prospect in college basketball in pick and roll situations, both as a passer or scorer, according to Synergy Sports Technology. He is highly creative and unselfish in terms of getting teammates easy baskets, and enjoyed quite a bit of success as a distributor despite not having ideal talent around him or enjoying great spacing, often sharing the floor with two non-shooting big men. Fultz's 36% assist percentage ranks second best in this draft behind only Jawun Evans, and he doesn't turn the ball over excessively at 13.3%. He will look even better in the NBA when surrounded with better spacing and more shooters around him, as he uses both hands to distribute, sees the weak-side and strong side equally effectively thanks to his outstanding size, court vision and super high basketball IQ.

As good as Fultz is on the ball, he also has significant potential operating alongside another ball-handler with his excellent size, length and frame, giving his future NBA coach plenty of lineup flexibility. He made 38% of catch and shoot jumpers on the season according to Synergy, and even shows some budding ability to come off screens and rise up smoothly to create separation.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Mark...

The rule is never trade a young talented big for a smaller player.
KP will grow more into his body and needs to play center in today's NBA.
Willy can either back him up or get trimmer and play the 4.
Main thing the Knicks need is good perimeter defenders with another scorer to help KP.

TLover wrote:The rule is never trade a young talented big for a smaller player.
KP will grow more into his body and needs to play center in today's NBA.
Willy can either back him up or get trimmer and play the 4.
Main thing the Knicks need is good perimeter defenders with another scorer to help KP.

I'm not sure that rule still applies.

That was the rule before the rule change eliminating hand checks and opening up the lane for talented offensive players and being able to space the floor, drive and shoot open 3's became the model for winning franchise.

Would you trade KP for James Harden or Russell Westbrook?

I don't see how you don't say yes to either of the above?

And why is that? What did they both do this past off season that KP will NEVER do in his career?

Be the focus point of a dynamic, attacking offense- the lynch pin of their teams success.

I will say his conference blk avg (1.1) was surprising for a pg. Fultz has all the tools he just needs to harness and stay focused on being the best player on both sides of the floor.

I think this deal makes too much sense for both parties not to explore.

If I'm Boston I can't let go of IT. That guy bleeds green and is willing to do whatever it takes contract wise to stick around. He just had a season where he was a top 5 MVP contender and I think the best 4th quarter stats in the league.

How do you let go of that for something totally unproven? I don't see it..... You find a guy like IT help. Help get him spacing and defense. Celtics need front court help to get to the next level. What's the ideal for the Celtics? Someone that can space the floor for IT. A good defender. Someone tall. Someone young that can enjoy many years of his prime with the Celtics. Someone on a good contract that will allow the Celtics to max out IT. This is Porzingis.

KP is better than a rookie in this situation because KP does not require as much building as a rookie at this point. He's ready to contribute now. He fills their position need and he's immensely talented.

Meanwhile the Knicks are in a different situation. They are no where near contender. We don't know if KP is the right franchise cornerstone for our team. Knicks don't have too many talented guards to sign. Knicks don't have an Isiah Thomas type that just led them to the #1 seed. They are in much better position to draft and develop a franchise point guard which will take a few years to develop. Knicks are also in position to absorb some bad contracts if some draft picks come back.

Celtics would have IT/Horford/KP as main parts with an outstanding supporting cast. If they could swing a trade for Paul George I'd rank them as high as the Cavs.

I would absolutely trade KP for Fultz.... I see Fultz as a Brandon Roy type. I don't think he's a point guard but he is a dynamic shooting guard with point guard skills. He shows a killer instinct and that excites me.

As far as KP... He started the season slow, almost like he regressed and then he had a period where he was a one two punch with Melo dropping big scoring and block numbers. Then he tapered off again and all his numbers dropped significantly. He's injury prone. His camp is also trying to strong arm the Knicks. KP didn't do the exit meeting. Then we get the report that his camp says he will leave if the Knicks don't improve the team. Then KP brother has a meeting with Phil "went nowhere", like what was supposed to happen with that meeting? Alot of weird shit that I never seen before from a kid on a rookie deal. We just don't need those narritives in BY. We're the Knicks not the KP has us by the balls franchise.

Anyway, we trade for Fultz, we must keep our #8 pick or use it to trade down. At that point i would be ok with drafting Lauri at #8 but praying for Isaac to fall. I wouldn't mind trading down to get two picks or hoping we get a 1st rounder in a probable Melo trade.

Also after trading KP for Fultz, it does open the door for Melo to stick around. It's possible for CP3 to come over to help Melo... doesn't have to be cp3 just for argument sake, we could have Melo, cp3, Fultz, Willy, a healthy Noah, Lee... maybe we have the juice to make another lateral trade to improve the team and even sign another player for the mid level after we are at the cap from signing CP3.

Bottom line is this is not an exact science... Miami won with Wade, Shaq winding down at 33 years old, old before his time Antoine walker, white chocolate, super Old Gary Payton (37)and alonzo (35)... haslem, posey, dererk Anderson were the significant role players.... who's to say we can't get lucky like this?

I am against trading KP. He's had one moment of really poor judgment and even the the underlying motive was a desire to win. We're not talking drugs or nude instagram. This is something we should fix. And winning cures a lot of ills

Besides even if we were to trade Boston should be our last partner. They have a history of making silk purses out of sows ears. See IT and Crowder. Imagine what they'll do w KP who we would then have to face all season long

I'll admit I haven't scouted fultz It I've heard no one call him a generational talent which honestly KP has the potential for. For all we know fultz could be this years D'angelo

Chandler wrote:I am against trading KP. He's had one moment of really poor judgment and even the the underlying motive was a desire to win. We're not talking drugs or nude instagram. This is something we should fix. And winning cures a lot of ills

Besides even if we were to trade Boston should be our last partner. They have a history of making silk purses out of sows ears. See IT and Crowder. Imagine what they'll do w KP who we would then have to face all season long

I'll admit I haven't scouted fultz It I've heard no one call him a generational talent which honestly KP has the potential for. For all we know fultz could be this years D'angelo

Fair points.

I would hate to trade in division - because even if you think KP won't be a generational talent (like I do), you'll still end up facing someone 6x who will play like one against you. But then we've been getting lit up by scrubs anyway.

Also - fair point on Fultz - I googled who does he compare to and how good can he be - and all I really got was this:

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketb...

Markelle Fultz, Washington

Compares to: Bradley Beal

Would I trade KP for Beal 2.0? No.

And first let me say, I've only seen a smattering of video on Fultz - but what I have seen has impressed me. I think Beal might be a bad comparison. EnySpree compared him to Brandon Roy- and he was a great player before his body broke down, and absolutely would be a player I would trade KP for.

Look - it's a gamble and you're playing percentages.

You think KP has a 100% chance of being a generational talent. You think Fultz has less- so, obviously, no trade makes sense (unless boston throws in the nets second 1st round pick next year).

But, for me right now, I see Fultz having a higher % chance of being a franchise impacting talent- that is partly because we've seen KP and not Fultz, so there is a greater unknown with Fultz and we've seen KPs warts (weak, can't stay healthy), but not Fultz's. Also, I'm advocating having a dynamic wing in today's NBA vs. a big.

KP is already more established than Fultz, having played 2 seasons, and has way more upside. I don't think something like this would be a wise trade.

franco12 wrote:

Chandler wrote:I am against trading KP. He's had one moment of really poor judgment and even the the underlying motive was a desire to win. We're not talking drugs or nude instagram. This is something we should fix. And winning cures a lot of ills

Besides even if we were to trade Boston should be our last partner. They have a history of making silk purses out of sows ears. See IT and Crowder. Imagine what they'll do w KP who we would then have to face all season long

I'll admit I haven't scouted fultz It I've heard no one call him a generational talent which honestly KP has the potential for. For all we know fultz could be this years D'angelo

Fair points.

I would hate to trade in division - because even if you think KP won't be a generational talent (like I do), you'll still end up facing someone 6x who will play like one against you. But then we've been getting lit up by scrubs anyway.

Also - fair point on Fultz - I googled who does he compare to and how good can he be - and all I really got was this:

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketb...

Markelle Fultz, Washington

Compares to: Bradley Beal

Would I trade KP for Beal 2.0? No.

And first let me say, I've only seen a smattering of video on Fultz - but what I have seen has impressed me. I think Beal might be a bad comparison. EnySpree compared him to Brandon Roy- and he was a great player before his body broke down, and absolutely would be a player I would trade KP for.

Look - it's a gamble and you're playing percentages.

You think KP has a 100% chance of being a generational talent. You think Fultz has less- so, obviously, no trade makes sense (unless boston throws in the nets second 1st round pick next year).

But, for me right now, I see Fultz having a higher % chance of being a franchise impacting talent- that is partly because we've seen KP and not Fultz, so there is a greater unknown with Fultz and we've seen KPs warts (weak, can't stay healthy), but not Fultz's. Also, I'm advocating having a dynamic wing in today's NBA vs. a big.

One other huge factor: we suck at trades (or are cursed); Celts are great at trades (or lucky). It would be a very long thread for Celt success stories in trades.

KP showed lots of improvement.
Just not in the areas we wanted or needed.
He worked on his Melo game.
He improved his ability to create a shot.
Crossover.
Pull up jumper in isolation.
Other isolation plays.

He is trying to become a scoring machine. That was his focus.
Opportunity was not there with Rose/Melo taking so many plays.
If he's given the same role Towns is, which means to say he is the number one player not Melo, he likely averages 20+ points a night.

Thing is, KP is not focusing on the areas he can help the team improve most.
Defense.
Post up play.
Rebounding.
Better tank.

I don't want to trade him, because he's an intense competitior and wants to bring a championship.
He may like to score way more than some would like, but so did some other great young players.

What I want to see from KP next year is a better post game, being more consistent with his 3 point shot. If he does that, I think he'll put up 22 points a night for us and be an all-star. It would be silly for us to trade that away.

Is Fultz the next Lebron, Westbrook, Durant? If so, yes. If he's more like a Kyrie Irving number 1 pick point guard, I'd say keep KP. It is tempting, no doubt. Especially with KP's horrible handling of the exit interview. He is too young and too unproven a star to be doing what he did. I hope he now backs it up with great all-star play next season.

I also agree a great point guard or guard right now in today's league is more valuable than a great unicorn. As special a talent as KP is, if Fultz is Westbrook level good then you make that trade. However I don't think Fultz is that good. I think he's more like Irving good. I would not trade KP at 21 years of age for a draft pick as good as Irving. I'd trade him for a MVP level talent, which I know is hard to predict, but it would be what I'd want.

nyknickzingis wrote:KP showed lots of improvement.
Just not in the areas we wanted or needed.
He worked on his Melo game.
He improved his ability to create a shot.
Crossover.
Pull up jumper in isolation.
Other isolation plays.

He is trying to become a scoring machine. That was his focus.
Opportunity was not there with Rose/Melo taking so many plays.
If he's given the same role Towns is, which means to say he is the number one player not Melo, he likely averages 20+ points a night.

Thing is, KP is not focusing on the areas he can help the team improve most.
Defense.
Post up play.
Rebounding.
Better tank.

I don't want to trade him, because he's an intense competitior and wants to bring a championship.
He may like to score way more than some would like, but so did some other great young players.

What I want to see from KP next year is a better post game, being more consistent with his 3 point shot. If he does that, I think he'll put up 22 points a night for us and be an all-star. It would be silly for us to trade that away.

Is Fultz the next Lebron, Westbrook, Durant? If so, yes. If he's more like a Kyrie Irving number 1 pick point guard, I'd say keep KP. It is tempting, no doubt. Especially with KP's horrible handling of the exit interview. He is too young and too unproven a star to be doing what he did. I hope he now backs it up with great all-star play next season.

Is he unproven? If he is, you kinda lean towards trading him if the deal is there, especially if you regard Fultz as a potential impact player.

My biggest concern with KP is can he thrive for a full season, and can he has a non-wing player dominate the game today?

nyknickzingis wrote:I also agree a great point guard or guard right now in today's league is more valuable than a great unicorn. As special a talent as KP is, if Fultz is Westbrook level good then you make that trade. However I don't think Fultz is that good. I think he's more like Irving good. I would not trade KP at 21 years of age for a draft pick as good as Irving. I'd trade him for a MVP level talent, which I know is hard to predict, but it would be what I'd want.

I don't know - but Kyrie is pretty good and I might trade KP straight up for him.

franco12 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I also agree a great point guard or guard right now in today's league is more valuable than a great unicorn. As special a talent as KP is, if Fultz is Westbrook level good then you make that trade. However I don't think Fultz is that good. I think he's more like Irving good. I would not trade KP at 21 years of age for a draft pick as good as Irving. I'd trade him for a MVP level talent, which I know is hard to predict, but it would be what I'd want.

I don't know - but Kyrie is pretty good and I might trade KP straight up for him.

Really? KP can be a game-changer at the center position for years to come. Someone you can build around on both ends and impossible to matchup with. Kyrie is a terrible defensive player and not really a franchise guy on offense either.

He is a malcontent and the situation is not getting better, there is zero chance this team is competitive and if he leaves for nothing we are truly screwed, trade his ass

Chandler wrote:I am against trading KP. He's had one moment of really poor judgment and even the the underlying motive was a desire to win. We're not talking drugs or nude instagram. This is something we should fix. And winning cures a lot of ills

Besides even if we were to trade Boston should be our last partner. They have a history of making silk purses out of sows ears. See IT and Crowder. Imagine what they'll do w KP who we would then have to face all season long

I'll admit I haven't scouted fultz It I've heard no one call him a generational talent which honestly KP has the potential for. For all we know fultz could be this years D'angelo

No center is valuable as a guard in this NBA, we should trade him. Ive never seen a 2nd year player pull a punk move like Porzingis

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I also agree a great point guard or guard right now in today's league is more valuable than a great unicorn. As special a talent as KP is, if Fultz is Westbrook level good then you make that trade. However I don't think Fultz is that good. I think he's more like Irving good. I would not trade KP at 21 years of age for a draft pick as good as Irving. I'd trade him for a MVP level talent, which I know is hard to predict, but it would be what I'd want.

I don't know - but Kyrie is pretty good and I might trade KP straight up for him.

Really? KP can be a game-changer at the center position for years to come. Someone you can build around on both ends and impossible to matchup with. Kyrie is a terrible defensive player and not really a franchise guy on offense either.

Jmpasq wrote:
No center is valuable as a guard in this NBA, we should trade him. Ive never seen a 2nd year player pull a punk move like Porzingis

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I also agree a great point guard or guard right now in today's league is more valuable than a great unicorn. As special a talent as KP is, if Fultz is Westbrook level good then you make that trade. However I don't think Fultz is that good. I think he's more like Irving good. I would not trade KP at 21 years of age for a draft pick as good as Irving. I'd trade him for a MVP level talent, which I know is hard to predict, but it would be what I'd want.

I don't know - but Kyrie is pretty good and I might trade KP straight up for him.

Really? KP can be a game-changer at the center position for years to come. Someone you can build around on both ends and impossible to matchup with. Kyrie is a terrible defensive player and not really a franchise guy on offense either.

Some of you guys are blowing this way out of proportion. Just because you get into a fight with your spouse doesn't mean you get a divorce.

The media continues to feed knicks fans and they eat it right up.

Knixkik wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:
No center is valuable as a guard in this NBA, we should trade him. Ive never seen a 2nd year player pull a punk move like Porzingis

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I also agree a great point guard or guard right now in today's league is more valuable than a great unicorn. As special a talent as KP is, if Fultz is Westbrook level good then you make that trade. However I don't think Fultz is that good. I think he's more like Irving good. I would not trade KP at 21 years of age for a draft pick as good as Irving. I'd trade him for a MVP level talent, which I know is hard to predict, but it would be what I'd want.

I don't know - but Kyrie is pretty good and I might trade KP straight up for him.

Really? KP can be a game-changer at the center position for years to come. Someone you can build around on both ends and impossible to matchup with. Kyrie is a terrible defensive player and not really a franchise guy on offense either.

Some of you guys are blowing this way out of proportion. Just because you get into a fight with your spouse doesn't mean you get a divorce.

The media continues to feed knicks fans and they eat it right up.

KPs brother threatened that KP would not sign an extension and would walk unless we appease him. Oh and that he won't accept a trade either. It's that kind of BS that annoys me, especially from a 2nd year player with a lot of work to do

smackeddog wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:
No center is valuable as a guard in this NBA, we should trade him. Ive never seen a 2nd year player pull a punk move like Porzingis

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I also agree a great point guard or guard right now in today's league is more valuable than a great unicorn. As special a talent as KP is, if Fultz is Westbrook level good then you make that trade. However I don't think Fultz is that good. I think he's more like Irving good. I would not trade KP at 21 years of age for a draft pick as good as Irving. I'd trade him for a MVP level talent, which I know is hard to predict, but it would be what I'd want.

I don't know - but Kyrie is pretty good and I might trade KP straight up for him.

Really? KP can be a game-changer at the center position for years to come. Someone you can build around on both ends and impossible to matchup with. Kyrie is a terrible defensive player and not really a franchise guy on offense either.

Some of you guys are blowing this way out of proportion. Just because you get into a fight with your spouse doesn't mean you get a divorce.

The media continues to feed knicks fans and they eat it right up.

KPs brother threatened that KP would not sign an extension and would walk unless we appease him. Oh and that he won't accept a trade either. It's that kind of BS that annoys me, especially from a 2nd year player with a lot of work to do

Nalod has read next CBA we'd basically own KP arse unless he wants some to accept the risk of a shorter deal elsewhere and not have the guaranteed goodness. Basically he can have it all, just has to stay healthy until. That said, and I am a PHil homer, I too am annoyed at him, but also I don't know the stench of which he protests about. IM not buying that the Oakley thing bothered him. His is on court and in lockerroom issues and mostly the U.K. Braintrust here likes to speculate is if they are in the know. We don't.

We have Two yeas until he is restricted. I'd say thats plenty of time for him to prove his meddle that he is worthy of big extension money, and a juice card to make demands. Some talk about "well phil's deal is up in two years so......."

So what? Is the issue Phil? Coach's? talent? Not being nice to Melo? Gatorade color? Assistant coach's? Not sure if KP a 4 or 5? Does he have a strong preference? Was the kid bent out of shape because the ex coach god said he needs to not do the bailout 3 point shot? Eradicate non ball movers? Not resign Rose?

My hope is KP eats handful of roids and is living in some secret ex soviet blood doping laboratory doing things to his body I could careless about except developing foot problems because he puts on impressive muscle mass and gets a fascist hair cut to show it off.

Good kid, bad kid, I don't care, put a titanium tip on that unicorn horn and shove it up the NBA arse!!! Make the playoffs and lead this francise. For that, he can do what ever he wants.

wow!!!! is the real or is this kid on the sauce lol
guns jacked right up

http://www.stack.com/a/potential-no-1-nba-draft-pick-markelle-fultz-looks-completely-jacked-in-recent-photo