Knicks · Phil Jackson was on the right path (page 2)

Phil get the worst possible cards given and then worst possible flop, turn and river...
And still managed to have team in the position to succeed.
This called a good Poker but not many understood.
That's why most of the player are suckers... which is how it should be.

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:He gets killed by the media and some fans--but he set the best foundation I have seen in 25 years.

Trading for Carmelo with all of our assets to play with a bunch of 36 years old teammates--thats not a foundation--thats shooting all your bullets.

When have we had more quality youthful depth? We were littered with mediocre vets for 20 years.

BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

What does building a foundation of youthful players have to do with this post in July? We added some vets as well to compliment the youth Sessions Kanter Beasley--still has nothing to do with this post? We may stink--Im not sure but it doesnt change the foundation

Phil is going to go down as the greatest GM/President in our history. We should all be apologizing to him for not respecting his greatness. You can say what you want about his veteran signings but he never sacrificed our future one iota. We have all of our draft picks as far as the eye can see. We have three (maybe more) great young pieces because of him. Thanks, Phil!

reub wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:He gets killed by the media and some fans--but he set the best foundation I have seen in 25 years.

Trading for Carmelo with all of our assets to play with a bunch of 36 years old teammates--thats not a foundation--thats shooting all your bullets.

When have we had more quality youthful depth? We were littered with mediocre vets for 20 years.

BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

What does building a foundation of youthful players have to do with this post in July? We added some vets as well to compliment the youth Sessions Kanter Beasley--still has nothing to do with this post? We may stink--Im not sure but it doesnt change the foundation

Phil is going to go down as the greatest GM/President in our history. We should all be apologizing to him for not respecting his greatness. You can say what you want about his veteran signings but he never sacrificed our future one iota. We have all of our draft picks as far as the eye can see. We have three (maybe more) great young pieces because of him. Thanks, Phil!

Nothing he did sacrificed our future one iota? You can't be serious. So if he hadn't committed $250 mil to Melo, Lee, and Noah, we would not be in position to make the future even one iota better than it looks now? If that money were available and to be used on FAs in their 20s, the future would not be one iota better?

I give Phil credit for bringing in Gaines, trusting him and the scouting team. Phil was a mixed bag, to be generous. If he had thought less like a coach, and more like an exec, I believe he would still be here.

in 5-8 years we will build a statue for Phil next to Garden

Bonn1997 wrote:

reub wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:He gets killed by the media and some fans--but he set the best foundation I have seen in 25 years.

Trading for Carmelo with all of our assets to play with a bunch of 36 years old teammates--thats not a foundation--thats shooting all your bullets.

When have we had more quality youthful depth? We were littered with mediocre vets for 20 years.

BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

What does building a foundation of youthful players have to do with this post in July? We added some vets as well to compliment the youth Sessions Kanter Beasley--still has nothing to do with this post? We may stink--Im not sure but it doesnt change the foundation

Phil is going to go down as the greatest GM/President in our history. We should all be apologizing to him for not respecting his greatness. You can say what you want about his veteran signings but he never sacrificed our future one iota. We have all of our draft picks as far as the eye can see. We have three (maybe more) great young pieces because of him. Thanks, Phil!

Nothing he did sacrificed our future one iota? You can't be serious. So if he hadn't committed $250 mil to Melo, Lee, and Noah, we would not be in position to make the future even one iota better than it looks now? If that money were available and to be used on FAs in their 20s, the future would not be one iota better?

While the NTC & Noah contracts were pretty harmful. We had still had cap space going on 3 yrs in a row, the stud young talent stayed put or signed with contenders. The only thing Phil could have really done with that cap space was eat ugly contracts for more picks hoping to have enough young talent parlay into trades.

reub wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:He gets killed by the media and some fans--but he set the best foundation I have seen in 25 years.

Trading for Carmelo with all of our assets to play with a bunch of 36 years old teammates--thats not a foundation--thats shooting all your bullets.

When have we had more quality youthful depth? We were littered with mediocre vets for 20 years.

BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

What does building a foundation of youthful players have to do with this post in July? We added some vets as well to compliment the youth Sessions Kanter Beasley--still has nothing to do with this post? We may stink--Im not sure but it doesnt change the foundation

Phil is going to go down as the greatest GM/President in our history. We should all be apologizing to him for not respecting his greatness. You can say what you want about his veteran signings but he never sacrificed our future one iota. We have all of our draft picks as far as the eye can see. We have three (maybe more) great young pieces because of him. Thanks, Phil!

The only way he could sacrifice the future was by giving out some of the worst on tracts in the league which he dd. he couldnt trade a first round pick before 2018. If he stayed and bought out Melo or traded for Anderson and possibly brought back Rose the Knicks would be in a horrible situation. The guy accidentally tanked into what is his greatest achievement. I think things would have continued to get worse if he stayed.

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

reub wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:He gets killed by the media and some fans--but he set the best foundation I have seen in 25 years.

Trading for Carmelo with all of our assets to play with a bunch of 36 years old teammates--thats not a foundation--thats shooting all your bullets.

When have we had more quality youthful depth? We were littered with mediocre vets for 20 years.

BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

What does building a foundation of youthful players have to do with this post in July? We added some vets as well to compliment the youth Sessions Kanter Beasley--still has nothing to do with this post? We may stink--Im not sure but it doesnt change the foundation

Phil is going to go down as the greatest GM/President in our history. We should all be apologizing to him for not respecting his greatness. You can say what you want about his veteran signings but he never sacrificed our future one iota. We have all of our draft picks as far as the eye can see. We have three (maybe more) great young pieces because of him. Thanks, Phil!

Nothing he did sacrificed our future one iota? You can't be serious. So if he hadn't committed $250 mil to Melo, Lee, and Noah, we would not be in position to make the future even one iota better than it looks now? If that money were available and to be used on FAs in their 20s, the future would not be one iota better?

While the NTC & Noah contracts were pretty harmful. We had still had cap space going on 3 yrs in a row, the stud young talent stayed put or signed with contenders. The only thing Phil could have really done with that cap space was eat ugly contracts for more picks hoping to have enough young talent parlay into trades.

Oh I wasn't saying I had confidence in Phil. Just if he did nothing (or gave 1 year deals to meet the min team payroll) and left Mills and Perry with cap space, our future would certainly be "one iota" better.

There was so much anti phil vitriol that I only occasionally defended him. Hardest part was forgetting he was with the Bulls and Lakers all those years. If Wily surprises us all and becomes a poor mans Gasol, and Nitty is the cure for what ails us, and Picjing KP was a 10 year all star, then if this team gels and wins in a meaningful nodules way and goes to a final, Phil will be remembered and the press and fans will take their appropriate back seat and say that he was a genius coach and a Helluva exec too despite his mistakes along the learning curve

https://www.theringer.com/2017/6/29/1604...

Doesn't take genius not to trade 1st rounders...he was given the balls to take KP because had Russel or Ok4 dropped...he would have taken them.....I give credit for taking him because based on KP summer league which was ok...I never envisioned what he did that first yr....if Frank explodes next 3 years....Phil would be doing good...

Hell....right now he is batting better than Donnie Walsh

Paris907 wrote:There was so much anti phil vitriol that I only occasionally defended him. Hardest part was forgetting he was with the Bulls and Lakers all those years. If Wily surprises us all and becomes a poor mans Gasol, and Nitty is the cure for what ails us, and Picjing KP was a 10 year all star, then if this team gels and wins in a meaningful nodules way and goes to a final, Phil will be remembered and the press and fans will take their appropriate back seat and say that he was a genius coach and a Helluva exec too despite his mistakes along the learning curve

Lots of IFs. How bout some facts?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnatio...

Not mentioned. Most important:
Phil wasted 3 years pushing the Triangle. His vision of the Triangle as the future of the Knicks Was short sighted and pushed by his bloated ego.

Saying Phil was a good Prez cuz KP, Willy, or Frank may turn out to be good is like saying IT was good because he drafted Ariza, Lee and Chandler.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Paris907 wrote:There was so much anti phil vitriol that I only occasionally defended him. Hardest part was forgetting he was with the Bulls and Lakers all those years. If Wily surprises us all and becomes a poor mans Gasol, and Nitty is the cure for what ails us, and Picjing KP was a 10 year all star, then if this team gels and wins in a meaningful nodules way and goes to a final, Phil will be remembered and the press and fans will take their appropriate back seat and say that he was a genius coach and a Helluva exec too despite his mistakes along the learning curve

Lots of IFs. How bout some facts?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnatio...

Not mentioned. Most important:
Phil wasted 3 years pushing the Triangle. His vision of the Triangle as the future of the Knicks Was short sighted and pushed by his bloated ego.

Saying Phil was a good Prez cuz KP, Willy, or Frank may turn out to be good is like saying IT was good because he drafted Ariza, Lee and Chandler.

The thing is that Phil's Triangle wasn't ancient history given that he was in 3 of the last 10 Finals and won 2 of them. Those offenses were very efficient even by today's standards. People want to blame the offense but it wasn't that.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Paris907 wrote:There was so much anti phil vitriol that I only occasionally defended him. Hardest part was forgetting he was with the Bulls and Lakers all those years. If Wily surprises us all and becomes a poor mans Gasol, and Nitty is the cure for what ails us, and Picjing KP was a 10 year all star, then if this team gels and wins in a meaningful nodules way and goes to a final, Phil will be remembered and the press and fans will take their appropriate back seat and say that he was a genius coach and a Helluva exec too despite his mistakes along the learning curve

Lots of IFs. How bout some facts?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnatio...

Not mentioned. Most important:
Phil wasted 3 years pushing the Triangle. His vision of the Triangle as the future of the Knicks Was short sighted and pushed by his bloated ego.

Saying Phil was a good Prez cuz KP, Willy, or Frank may turn out to be good is like saying IT was good because he drafted Ariza, Lee and Chandler.

There are 2 “ifs” ! And one was a 8th pick and at the time an 18 year old. That’s ballsy and an “if” by definition. KP is beyond an If and we know what we have in THJr. Thus the other phil play was the 35th pick in Wily. The “if” isn’t if he will succeed. Per 36 minutes his stats are bona fide. The question is how good will he be. Will He be a two way reboudning machine that can score 16-18 per night. Yes, there are question marks and any knowledgeable Knick fan knows that. When your three players average 22 years of age that is kinda of a gimme unless your Russell Westbrook.

BRIGGS wrote:He gets killed by the media and some fans--but he set the best foundation I have seen in 25 years.

Trading for Carmelo with all of our assets to play with a bunch of 36 years old teammates--thats not a foundation--thats shooting all your bullets.

When have we had more quality youthful depth? We were littered with mediocre vets for 20 years.

Trust me, Every president we had, or have now, has a great plan, but they always failed to execute it right..

Phils plan was great until in forced the triangle with non triangle players and coaches

Walsh plan was working until he failed to get MDA a pg, and traded for melo

Isaiah wanted to get young and athletic, he got crawford(about the same age as THJ at the time), got curry in his early 20's, tim thomas was a athletic guy not playing up to his potential, marbury was a top 10 pg in the league, he drafted well. None of those players knew anything about defense, and they never got better or wiser in a KNICK uniform.

Which reminds me of what we have now, A roster full of suspect defenders, and some under achievers.

When we traded for Bargiani, we all knew he had some potential and probably just needed a new environment, and he turned out to be exactly who we saw before he got here, same with DWILL, AA, Noah, Rose, jennings, the list is endless

The only person that has played beyond what i expected, is LANCE THOMAS, and injuries has derailed his 28 yr old ass..Im not including draft picks.

we just keep getting people that do a few things well, and a few things really wrong. It's always been 2 good moves, 1 bad move, 2 bad moves, 1 good move..Basically stuck in position

If Frank turns out to be the player we hope, that is on Phil,too.

I've a theory on the "trade Porzingis" bidness. It was a Zen move, the obvious intent being to show who was the boss, but more.

I think the real point of broadcasting that Phil would listen to offers, though, had to do with all the rumors days before the draft about Dallas' interest in Frank, not the least of which was flipping their picks with Minnesota from nine to seven, ahead of the Knicks at eight.

Minnesota was thought to be interested in Markkanen and generally in need of a big and, thus, could confidently drop behind the Knicks with the assumption NY would take Monk or Smith if Frank was gone.

By putting out that "crazy Phil" notion that Porzingis might be sent out of town, Phil established the possibility that Markkanen might be the natural replacement and therefore not available at the ninth pick.

Of course, matters evolved. Markkanen was picked by Minnesota at seven but then sent off to Chicago in the draft day deal. Whether or not Minnesota actually entertained thoughts of trading with Dallas before the Butler trade developed is not clear. But it would have made sense for Phil to be proactive if he really wanted Frank.

HofstraBBall wrote:Question....How can anyone be on the right path when every decision made was based on the F..in TRIANGLE? Sighhhhh.
You guys are talking bout draft picks, signings, NTC clause? Who cares? Every Prez can't bat 1000. However, NO Prez makes all his player, coaching decisions based on an antiquated system which he tries to force feed, to all his player's and coaches, regarsless of their natural strengths or styles.

Biggest issue I had with Phil is that he was not here to build a winning team. He was here to expand his Triangle legacy.

This 100x

Have to add the way he handled Melo. It was never his *phil* fault...he had to blame someone and unfortunately, that led to Melo stock dropping in the trade market.

NYKBocker wrote:Absolutely! 3 things I thought he messed up on.

1. NTC
2. Noah contract
3. Handling of Melo but I think he did that to force Melo to take out the NTC.

Getting yoothier and getting fundamentally sound players is a great way to build a foundation. This has been the most happy I have been about our situation coming into a season since the offseason when we signed Childs and Houston and traded for Larry Johnson. The possibilities are endless and I am getting drunk with orange and blue koolaid.

Bit of a homer but Noah's story hasn't been told just yet! I agree about the reasoning of his Nelo handling. NTC may have been the only way to sign him and Nolan may have had a hand. Also Phil may have wanted out anyways. Gets to go down in Knicks lore if we can get this squad rollin!

Jackson was totally on the right path, It was the New York media ran him outta town. It wasn’t that he wasn’t truthful, the guy was overly truthful.. and nyc isn’t LA or chi town. The media hangs on every word you say as president of knicks basketball. The melo situation, everyone knows melo holds the ball for to long and stops the off ball movement, everyone knows he was aweful on defense. Phil just needed to keep his mouth shut talk to melo behind closed doors. Same goes for KP his last straw, it’s fine to see what you can get for your up and coming superstar. You never know how desperate a team will be or how in love with a player they are. Phil again opened his mouth and sent the nyc media into a frenzy.

He definitely had a vision and he definitely was handed a mess of a team when he signed on. Noah was a aweful signing but I can see Phil loving his leadership skills, before Noah those leadership skills were severely lacking on the squad.

His biggest bugaboo, which I find interesting considering he is the zen master, was his failure to move beyond the triangle. He just couldn’t let go and be free of the triangle and evolve to the new age nba. That was really my only qualm with Jackson...

If only he wasn’t in ny he’d probably still be steering the ship in the right direction. With that said, I think Perry is handling the torch and vision Phil had and is staying the course.

Swishfm3 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Question....How can anyone be on the right path when every decision made was based on the F..in TRIANGLE? Sighhhhh.
You guys are talking bout draft picks, signings, NTC clause? Who cares? Every Prez can't bat 1000. However, NO Prez makes all his player, coaching decisions based on an antiquated system which he tries to force feed, to all his player's and coaches, regarsless of their natural strengths or styles.

Biggest issue I had with Phil is that he was not here to build a winning team. He was here to expand his Triangle legacy.

This 100x

Have to add the way he handled Melo. It was never his *phil* fault...he had to blame someone and unfortunately, that led to Melo stock dropping in the trade market.

Regarding Phil dropping Melos stock value. I think that’s bogus!!!
The truth of it as NY Knick fans and GMs know, Father Time dropped Melo’s value. Melo not playing D dropped Melo’s value, Melo’s piss poor shooting in the 4th quarter and for the season overall dropped Melo’s value. Phil didn’t drop it Pil just states the obvious and he was and is better off elsewhere. What Phil saw is that Melo isn’t a winner and rubbed poor influence on KP and others. Melo won the battle but Phil the war.

CrushAlot wrote:He wasn't allowed to trade a first round pick until 2018 so not trading that pick should not be considered a legacy move He drafted well but it was after he accidenally tanked (3x). The contracts he gave out, his trades, coaching hires, and communication skills were all bad.

Yeah, Briggs said it was the right path but didn't say what the path was. I guess the path was to make terrible signings and trades so that we get very good draft picks!