Knicks · ALL IN FOR AD (page 7)

If you want to be serious, you’re going to have to offer NO everything. Now, maybe you can also give them the contracts you don’t want. What if I told you the Knicks traded all their good away but this time next year they are fielding a starting five that has Anthony Davis, Durant and Leonard? Ok Leonard says no and we get Kemba walker instead?

Go big or go home. If you want Anthony David bad enough you’re gonna need to blow NO out of the water and now. But, maybe there’s a way to open up two max deals in addition to the new Davis deal. If you could ensure that the Knicks could sign two more maxes after Davis? Would anyone care who we gave up? Sure it’s painful, but it could be beautiful.

AD's trade demand has opened up multiple opportunities and a strategic insight into their post-AD thinking. They have basically put the rest of their veteran's on the chopping block and the only thing they'll get from LA are yesteryear's disappointing lottery players and a few over-achievers whose ceiling is little more than a rotation player or two. In other words, they're in a full rebuild asap.

If they couple their pick with ours this year they'd reboot with two very high picks. That, IMO, trumps anything LA can offer.

A second possiblity is bundling KP with our pick [plus a sweetener or two] for AD and *their* pick this year [say, top five protected].

But another consequence of this trade demand is (assuming we don't get AD) is that they have some players who may be of interest on the table. Maybe there's a secondary match there.

But the real elephant in the garden is the fact that this represents an existential crisis for the FO.

Abandon the long runway rebuild that we are in year three of OR stay an uncertain and risky course. The former ensures the Knicks a franchise cornerstone with NBA cred and the latter gambles that KP comes back at full strength, that the pick we get isn't a bust, and that the cap space clearing isn't wasted on mediocre talent that is rewarded with a mega-star contract. And, every true Knicks fan, knows that the latter risk is a familiar pattern.

--------------------------------------

The rebuild does require a longer runway than most fans imagine. Our youth are at least two years away from NBA maturity. The issue isn't talent per se but hardening and discipline. No amount of free agent shenanigans is going to change that. Any FA signing that has a whiff of "win-now" will result in a fire sale of the rebuild assets anyway.

The acquisition of AD runs that same risk. The FO will want more maturity than potential on the court. That changes the acquisition targets now and this summer. The Knicks will no longer be running a seasonal development camp to hold the interest of teenagers but instead be looking to for close order drills by hardened vets.

And given this state of affairs, I'm not buying the argument that a trade for AD empties the pantry.

As a few other posters have suggested, KP *has* to be the central trade chip - talent for talent. But because its a trade that will inevitably involve some bidding - trading lottery positions this year with the Pelicans getting the better of the two positions sweetens the deal significantly.

They'll be looking for cap relief and a couple of inexpensive, youthful contracts - Kanter as an expiring to make numbers work and Kornet and Trier to seal the deal.

That leaves the Knicks with a pretty decent mix of veterans and youth to reconstruct a team with.

doomed wrote:Some of you are out of your mind. Offering a first along with 3 decent young players? That’s garbage. You aren’t getting AD for garbage.

If you want to be serious, you’re going to have to offer NO everything. Now, maybe you can also give them the contracts you don’t want. What if I told you the Knicks traded all their good away but this time next year they are fielding a starting five that has Anthony Davis, Durant and Leonard? Ok Leonard says no and we get Kemba walker instead?

Go big or go home. If you want Anthony David bad enough you’re gonna need to blow NO out of the water and now. But, maybe there’s a way to open up two max deals in addition to the new Davis deal. If you could ensure that the Knicks could sign two more maxes after Davis? Would anyone care who we gave up? Sure it’s painful, but it could be beautiful.

Not sure what you mean by "EVERYTHING". Look there are 15 - 17 spots on a team. throwing bodies at NO doesn't buy you a thing.

If the Knicks deal, KP is going to be a chip as will a player or two. That said, Frankie and Knox were top ten lottery picks - if they want KP then they don't get one or two more unicorns and a laundry list of other goodies to go along.

More sensibly, they get some expiring contract relief (Kanter an obvious $ match choice).

IMO, this year's Knicks draft pick is available for a swap of picks but not on the table as an add-in.
OTOH, next year's pick probably belongs on the table in one form or another.

And after that, some grab-bag of Kornet, Trier, Vonleh, Muddy, Hezonja - pick two - are a decent haul.

Wes Johnson ($6mil expiring)
Mirotic ($12.5mil expiring)
Moore (2 years at $8mil per)
Randle (8.6mil basically expiring)

While we already heard they're looking to move Randle and Mirotic for picks, the interesting one is Moore, who has no individual value really, which would indicate they're looking to package Moore with AD, and probably Wes (who also has no individual value).

So those salaries are:

AD- $25mil
Moore- $8mil
Wes- $6mil

which perfectly match:

KP- $5.6mil
Kanter: $18.6mil
Tim Jr: $17mil

At this point I think maybe the Raptors are more likely just because of the gambling odds (they're usually good for info)- Pelicans probably won't trade him to the lakers out of spite

I think the Sixers would love to get Mirotic, so I think he ends up going there (maybe for that Miami pick)

doomed wrote:Some of you are out of your mind. Offering a first along with 3 decent young players? That’s garbage. You aren’t getting AD for garbage.

If you want to be serious, you’re going to have to offer NO everything. Now, maybe you can also give them the contracts you don’t want. What if I told you the Knicks traded all their good away but this time next year they are fielding a starting five that has Anthony Davis, Durant and Leonard? Ok Leonard says no and we get Kemba walker instead?

Go big or go home. If you want Anthony David bad enough you’re gonna need to blow NO out of the water and now. But, maybe there’s a way to open up two max deals in addition to the new Davis deal. If you could ensure that the Knicks could sign two more maxes after Davis? Would anyone care who we gave up? Sure it’s painful, but it could be beautiful.

The reason you are incorrect is because New Orleans is dealing while backed into a corner. AD wants to play for basically one team and MAYBE the Knicks but that’s risky. Therefore, NOLA has no choice but to accept the fact that they might only recieve a low-ball package. It sucks for them. It really does but I guess that’s because AD and his agent turned out to be A-Holes in this situation by making this public.

Vmart wrote:In today’s NBA centers do not draw free agents. The Knicks need to be wise to this.

Yeah AD as your primary piece won't bring you wins. Same thing can be said for Porzingis. A team like Toronto has the balance for AD to work. I wonder if the WIzards should offer Wall to the Pelicans. It would a smart move, the Pelicans can try to save face to their fanbase with a bankable star. Even if Davis walks the Wizards get out of the Wall contract. Its kind of like the Toronto Leonard trade. I would trade Porzingis and filler for AD but Im not giving them our pick this year too. At that point we can't build the team properly so its no longer worth it.

Vmart wrote:Precisely adding AD doesn’t do much for the Knicks. They will still be very bad and they will lose assets putting them right back where they were before. 15-35 win team. With a Star player that has no impact.

Indeed. Can I get an Amen !

ramtour420 wrote:

Vmart wrote:Precisely adding AD doesn’t do much for the Knicks. They will still be very bad and they will lose assets putting them right back where they were before. 15-35 win team. With a Star player that has no impact.

Indeed. Can I get an Amen !

Amen

The more I think about it the more I think this would be a cross between an Isiah move and trading for Melo. We are a 10 win team. We suck. As great as AD is he hasn't done much of note at all. I am starting to think that getting involved as a facilitator would be the best course of action. I think absorbing some salary for prospects or picks is a better fit for where the organization is realistically at.

Gudris wrote:It makes no sense to trade KP for AD who will leave in 1 year

The idea is if you trade KP for AD, we keep the bulk of our young guys and depth, plus it makes it more likely we sign KD or Irving in the offseason, which in turn makes it more likely AD stays. By the time his contract is up, Lebron is a year and a half older, making the Lakers less attractive.

smackeddog wrote:

Gudris wrote:It makes no sense to trade KP for AD who will leave in 1 year

The idea is if you trade KP for AD, we keep the bulk of our young guys and depth, plus it makes it more likely we sign KD or Irving in the offseason, which in turn makes it more likely AD stays. By the time his contract is up, Lebron is a year and a half older, making the Lakers less attractive.

KP's cap hold will be ~$17M next year while AD's salary will be $27M. Knicks dont yet have the room to give KD a max without also moving Lee/THJr with the KP scenario.

Is there a baseline assumption that the Knicks will be giving up $10M MORE than taking in?

martin wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Gudris wrote:It makes no sense to trade KP for AD who will leave in 1 year

The idea is if you trade KP for AD, we keep the bulk of our young guys and depth, plus it makes it more likely we sign KD or Irving in the offseason, which in turn makes it more likely AD stays. By the time his contract is up, Lebron is a year and a half older, making the Lakers less attractive.

KP's cap hold will be ~$17M next year while AD's salary will be $27M. Knicks dont yet have the room to give KD a max without also moving Lee/THJr with the KP scenario.

Is there a baseline assumption that the Knicks will be giving up $10M MORE than taking in?

It would likely be KP AND our first, so remember the cap hold for the no 1 pick is $8mil next season, so that's $17mil + $8mil= $25mil, so I think we'd only be taking on an extra couple of million.

Yep, you'd still need to move Lee or Tim Jr whether you trade for AD or not, but in an emergency you could stretch one of them (which I wouldn't want to do).

doomed wrote:Some of you are out of your mind. Offering a first along with 3 decent young players? That’s garbage. You aren’t getting AD for garbage.

If you want to be serious, you’re going to have to offer NO everything. Now, maybe you can also give them the contracts you don’t want. What if I told you the Knicks traded all their good away but this time next year they are fielding a starting five that has Anthony Davis, Durant and Leonard? Ok Leonard says no and we get Kemba walker instead?

Go big or go home. If you want Anthony David bad enough you’re gonna need to blow NO out of the water and now. But, maybe there’s a way to open up two max deals in addition to the new Davis deal. If you could ensure that the Knicks could sign two more maxes after Davis? Would anyone care who we gave up? Sure it’s painful, but it could be beautiful.

At the end of the day it comes down to if we are better off as a team or not. Is there a future left if it doesn't work? Hard to know what's a greater risk - AD wanting to stay and being able to field a team of minimum-type players around him and whoever else is maxed OR stay with the youth, hopefully draft a stud, KP stays healthy, hope one of our young guys turns into something beyond serviceable... A lot of "ifs" but I would stay with the youth as we have enough young guys that I think it's more probably that one or two of them will pan out and we'll finally have a foundation to build on.

jskinny35 wrote:

doomed wrote:Some of you are out of your mind. Offering a first along with 3 decent young players? That’s garbage. You aren’t getting AD for garbage.

If you want to be serious, you’re going to have to offer NO everything. Now, maybe you can also give them the contracts you don’t want. What if I told you the Knicks traded all their good away but this time next year they are fielding a starting five that has Anthony Davis, Durant and Leonard? Ok Leonard says no and we get Kemba walker instead?

Go big or go home. If you want Anthony David bad enough you’re gonna need to blow NO out of the water and now. But, maybe there’s a way to open up two max deals in addition to the new Davis deal. If you could ensure that the Knicks could sign two more maxes after Davis? Would anyone care who we gave up? Sure it’s painful, but it could be beautiful.

At the end of the day it comes down to if we are better off as a team or not. Is there a future left if it doesn't work? Hard to know what's a greater risk - AD wanting to stay and being able to field a team of minimum-type players around him and whoever else is maxed OR stay with the youth, hopefully draft a stud, KP stays healthy, hope one of our young guys turns into something beyond serviceable... A lot of "ifs" but I would stay with the youth as we have enough young guys that I think it's more probably that one or two of them will pan out and we'll finally have a foundation to build on.

Like I said earlier, for me AD for KP, Kanter and our 1st is acceptable specifically because it allows us to keep our young players, our future firsts and increases the chances of adding a top FA this offseason.

I'm fine if we don't trade for AD too. Worst case for me would be trading for AD but using all our young guys and picks and keeping KP, because it robs us of our depth and leaves an ill fitting team.

smackeddog wrote:

martin wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Gudris wrote:It makes no sense to trade KP for AD who will leave in 1 year

The idea is if you trade KP for AD, we keep the bulk of our young guys and depth, plus it makes it more likely we sign KD or Irving in the offseason, which in turn makes it more likely AD stays. By the time his contract is up, Lebron is a year and a half older, making the Lakers less attractive.

KP's cap hold will be ~$17M next year while AD's salary will be $27M. Knicks dont yet have the room to give KD a max without also moving Lee/THJr with the KP scenario.

Is there a baseline assumption that the Knicks will be giving up $10M MORE than taking in?

It would likely be KP AND our first, so remember the cap hold for the no 1 pick is $8mil next season, so that's $17mil + $8mil= $25mil, so I think we'd only be taking on an extra couple of million.

Yep, you'd still need to move Lee or Tim Jr whether you trade for AD or not, but in an emergency you could stretch one of them (which I wouldn't want to do).

Your logic is kinda messed up at this point. You don't trade cap holds and salary slots, you trade players that are signed to contracts.

And then when you do sign a player, it is either a sign and trade or you can't trade them for X amount of time.

martin wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

martin wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Gudris wrote:It makes no sense to trade KP for AD who will leave in 1 year

The idea is if you trade KP for AD, we keep the bulk of our young guys and depth, plus it makes it more likely we sign KD or Irving in the offseason, which in turn makes it more likely AD stays. By the time his contract is up, Lebron is a year and a half older, making the Lakers less attractive.

KP's cap hold will be ~$17M next year while AD's salary will be $27M. Knicks dont yet have the room to give KD a max without also moving Lee/THJr with the KP scenario.

Is there a baseline assumption that the Knicks will be giving up $10M MORE than taking in?

It would likely be KP AND our first, so remember the cap hold for the no 1 pick is $8mil next season, so that's $17mil + $8mil= $25mil, so I think we'd only be taking on an extra couple of million.

Yep, you'd still need to move Lee or Tim Jr whether you trade for AD or not, but in an emergency you could stretch one of them (which I wouldn't want to do).

Your logic is kinda messed up at this point. You don't trade cap holds and salary slots, you trade players that are signed to contracts.

And then when you do sign a player, it is either a sign and trade or you can't trade them for X amount of time.

Sorry if I've not been clear- I'm not talking about trading cap holds, I was pointing out the salary impact for the offseason is minimal if you traded KP, our 1st and Kanter now (because of the cap hold for whatever 1st round pick we end up with would be gone if we traded the pick).

Say if we didn't do an AD trade, come the offseason we'd have:

KP with a $17.5mil cap hold
1st round pick with a max cap hold of $8mil

If we did a trade now, both those cap holds wouldn't be there in the offseason, instead we'd have AD's $27mil salary, meaning we'd only have $1.5mil less cap space as a result.

ESOMKnicks wrote:Plus is not Kawhi going to be cheaper than KD? I'd rather sign him, as it would need less movement to free up space, and he is a couple of years younger.

I would but it seems like he's set on the clippers (just bought an expensive home out there)