Knicks · Tom Thibodeau 90 percent likely to be new coach of knicks. per cnnsi.com Jonathan Macri (page 3)
Nalod wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:We all know Miller's resume and like what he's done. "Most teams" is not evidence. What you are asking/hoping is not normal and should not be expected.fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:really? How are you quantifying that statement? You are hiring your next coach because despite losing to them we now look like a team that can be challenging? Do you have any examples of new GMs or FO hires that came in and kept the interim guy vs. hiring his own? I cant think of one example despite you saying "most teams" would give Miller a chance. I totally disagree. Most teams would follow through the hiring and building of their staff as planned even if the guy who took over midseason coached a .200 team to a .400 team.fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:The only thing I made a case for is folks to open their eyes to how the world works... today's topic is how to hire an NBA coach.fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:coach is a big hire, and big job and the critical bridge between the FO and players. If you are coming into a situation with the level of historic dysfunction that the Knicks have had you are not hanging the coaching gig on a guy with a couple decent months under his belt, you just are not doing that. Its not a reasonable or realistic expectation under any circumstances.HofstraBBall wrote:blkexec wrote:Miller is a rookie....Thibs is a vet.....Inever liked JVG when he was coaching the knicks. Offense was boring. Thibs at least has coached recently and has adjusted to today's basketball. Plus his roots on defense doesnt go away. Hes one of the best defensive minded coaches out there, next to JVG.Right now, it doesnt matter what moves we make, until we develop an identity. Thibs will help lead that cultural change, and attract other two way defensive minded players like Morris.
Agree with this. Understand the love for Miller but also feel Knick fans are enamored with underdog blue color guys. Not a bad thing but unrealistic. IMO, just getting a decent guy to coach the team, Miller, leaves out the most important factor needed for the Knicks right now. Lets face it, NO ONE wants to come here. Except to get overpaid. Thibs has a much better rep, league wide, then Miller. He changes the perspective for many fee agents. Rose knows that. He knows that we need to be able to attract the elite players in the league. Dolan also knows that. Reason why he hired Rose. NO way Miller sticks. Like the guy but he is a better fit for teams looking to slowly develop young players. And feel Dolan is tired of doing that and now looking to get some big names and win. Always liked Thibs so either way, happy to hear he may be the next coach.
Wanting Miller to stay isnt about sentiment. He's doing a good job with a lottery team. The players seem to respect and play hard for him. Is good with Xs and Os, big on details. Miller worked his way up the organization.
Not so sure Thibs has a great rep outside of Ex-Bulls who he famously ran into the ground, with multiple players ending up in the hospital. KAT might be a Diva, but he is part of the younger NBA generation that Thibs apparently had trouble connecting with. Thibs is an old school coach, not confident he can connect with players who arent willing to be ridden as hard as his vets were in Chicago.
As a Knicks fan, if Thibs was introduced, there would be some questions Id like to see answered
What lessons have you learned from your last coaching gig? Do you believe in load mgmt for vets? Will anything be different from your last stop?
I dont see this move attracting elite players. They will see another coach on the Knicks coaching carousel.
Hopefully the next FO will ID some of the things that are working here and keep that and continue to grow that, and is it possible that includes Miller? Maybe, but its not as simple as "this guy has been good so he should stay." It just isnt and assuming it is and using that as fuel vs. the new FO doesnt make sense either.
As for Thibs? You cant say he doesnt have coaching chops and somehow the TWolves are used as a bad example but they won 47 games under Thibs and havent seen a win total like that since the KG/Spree/Cassel/Wally team and they have been worse without Thibs so there's that...
You just made a great case to never to promote an asst. coach. Miller has been acting like a "bridge". The players are responding, and putting in the effort. Miller just mentioned that he is in constant touch with Perry over who plays. Miller is doing his job, on and off the court.
The last thing the Knicks need to do is to fix something that isnt broken. Absent the team crashing and burning for the rest of the season, firing a coach who is doing his job is counterproductive. We're far enough away from the last coach to say that the improved play, (in spite of all the injuries) is a more than a bump from a change of coach.
2021 is a huge FA summer Giving Miller a season to make a case to stay on is the way to go. If it doesnt work out, then go for the splash hire in advance of free agency. Dont see the rush to replace Miller, not with our rep for keeping coaches on a short leash. Miller looks like a better coach for the job with his chops and experience at developing players.
Do the Knicks have winning record under Miller? Are the a playoff team under Miller? Has any young player broken out under Miller?Miller took a really garbage squad and make them slightly less garbage. That is not the same as doing a great job and cementing a permanent role. You missing some perspective here. Miller has done a nice job. He's coaching. Its not really anything that special.
Nobody is firing Mike Miller. We dont even had a FO right now. He's a interim coach and doing great in that capacity. Next FO gets to build their org how they see fit and Mike Miller has been ok. Try to have some perspective on Miller's "achievements"
Its been more than a slighty better winning pct., even after trading away our best player. This team looks like it can at least challenge elite teams. With this roster, thats no small thing. Thibs had more by the time he left Minny, and did less or the same. Not to mention his relationship with his stars. That kind of a move isnt today's NBA. Most teams would give Miller another season, considering his in the organization and making the team more competitive. Firing, replacing, Miller with a retread would be classic Knicks.
But as you feel "most teams" would do this any real world example would be more convincing.
I am not opposed to keeping Miller. He's been fine. This notion that he's been great and deserves a shot to be the perm HC and if he's not is just "more typical Knicks" is silly though and is fantasy based. I get why you want him to stay but you gotta open your eyes and be realistic on this one.
Most teams would put more stock in hoe Miller got to this point. As you know, Miller ran the G-league development tesm. Won a title. Did a great job there. Was asked to be an asst for Fizdale, even though Fizdale didnt want him or other G league coaches who came with him. Was reported that there was little if any communication between them.
Not long after being promoted to interim HC. He gets a team which was setting franchise records for losing, and gets them playing like a 7th seed, by his record since taking over.
Most teams would give weight to the fact that this isnt an asst who came with one of the many Knicks HCs Dolan is still paying. Miller worked his way up the ranks, and has aquitted himself on every level. Most teams consider that a good reason to give a coach like Miller a full season as coach, from camp on.
If there were sone hot shot coach that was on the Knicks radar, and the coach was interested, thats one thing. A coach who wasnt very good when he left his last stop, has trouble connecting with youngers players, is another.
You want me to quantify it? T+P=0
Time with a company working up the company ladder. Plus performance on the job, equals opportunity. Most teams would reward Miller's performance from the G league to the pros with more time. That is unless an elite coach is available. Dont consider Thibs to be one at this point.
This is not the US postal service.
Most teams don't promote their Gleague guys. We did!
In fact, he got the gig over Canles and Sullivan.
Damn cell phone signal every time I try to post. My last try for a while.
Giving Thibs the job, when he was hot garbage as a coach, by yhe time he left Minny. A team he built. Over Miller who got them from the bottom of the league, to a team which might have made the playoffs with Morris. Seems very "Post Office" to me.
fishmike wrote:Uptown wrote:Not a really a fan of hiring Thibs, but it makes zero sense to force him to add Miller and or Sullivan to his staff. Which ever coach the Knicks hire should be allowed to from his own staff.it comes down to why, and we wont have any visibility so its an issue of blind faith (always good for Knick fans).If Rose hires Thibs as a "NY guy" who is going to push players to be tough then we are phucked.
But if they actually know Thibs as a basketball guy and share a vision regarding growing the team and org in a way where Thib's strengths are really capitalized on that's a different story. I feel like there are good and bad and in-between reasons to bring in a guy like Thibs. Of course we will never know until its too late but there are good scenarios where Thibs comes in and 100% is the right guy.
If this was 2010, I would be excited!! 10 years later, the game has seemed to sprint right passed him...His offensive sets were uninspiring, and his calling-card, which was on the defensive end, failed him. His teams ranked 27th out of 30 on the defensive side of the ball for 2 of the 3 yrs he was in Minny. He seemed to wear out his welcome pretty fast. What's the over under on Thibs wearing out his welcome here?
But if they actually know Thibs as a basketball guy and share a vision regarding growing the team and org in a way where Thib's strengths are really capitalized on that's a different story.
Would love for the front office to find a coach with a shared vision of growing the team...that's what most established, well run franchises do. If Thibs is the guy, I can't help but wonder if its Rose doing a favor for a friend and former client, and also giving the nod to a former Knick.
Uptown wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:blkexec wrote:Miller is a rookie....Thibs is a vet.....Inever liked JVG when he was coaching the knicks. Offense was boring. Thibs at least has coached recently and has adjusted to today's basketball. Plus his roots on defense doesnt go away. Hes one of the best defensive minded coaches out there, next to JVG.Right now, it doesnt matter what moves we make, until we develop an identity. Thibs will help lead that cultural change, and attract other two way defensive minded players like Morris.
Agree with this. Understand the love for Miller but also feel Knick fans are enamored with underdog blue color guys. Not a bad thing but unrealistic. IMO, just getting a decent guy to coach the team, Miller, leaves out the most important factor needed for the Knicks right now. Lets face it, NO ONE wants to come here. Except to get overpaid. Thibs has a much better rep, league wide, then Miller. He changes the perspective for many fee agents. Rose knows that. He knows that we need to be able to attract the elite players in the league. Dolan also knows that. Reason why he hired Rose. NO way Miller sticks. Like the guy but he is a better fit for teams looking to slowly develop young players. And feel Dolan is tired of doing that and now looking to get some big names and win. Always liked Thibs so either way, happy to hear he may be the next coach.
This should be our agenda...We should be in full rebuild mode. The cycle of quick fixes is why we've been stuck on the hamster wheel for the past 20 years....Hopefully Rose is smart enough to see that.
The slow cycle of waiting to see how our draft picks pan out, years of ignoring how our draft picks are not as projected and endless reboots are just as tiring. The good news is that the six years of nothing have resulted in having enough assets to put a decent team together. Not saying to give everything away for some injured, older vet who has seen his best years pass him by. But whats wrong with finally wanting to put the fruits of those meaningless years to work? One thing is for sure, not a fan of continuing the losing seasons just for a hopeful chance of getting a savior.
GustavBahler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:blkexec wrote:Miller is a rookie....Thibs is a vet.....Inever liked JVG when he was coaching the knicks. Offense was boring. Thibs at least has coached recently and has adjusted to today's basketball. Plus his roots on defense doesnt go away. Hes one of the best defensive minded coaches out there, next to JVG.Right now, it doesnt matter what moves we make, until we develop an identity. Thibs will help lead that cultural change, and attract other two way defensive minded players like Morris.
Agree with this. Understand the love for Miller but also feel Knick fans are enamored with underdog blue color guys. Not a bad thing but unrealistic. IMO, just getting a decent guy to coach the team, Miller, leaves out the most important factor needed for the Knicks right now. Lets face it, NO ONE wants to come here. Except to get overpaid. Thibs has a much better rep, league wide, then Miller. He changes the perspective for many fee agents. Rose knows that. He knows that we need to be able to attract the elite players in the league. Dolan also knows that. Reason why he hired Rose. NO way Miller sticks. Like the guy but he is a better fit for teams looking to slowly develop young players. And feel Dolan is tired of doing that and now looking to get some big names and win. Always liked Thibs so either way, happy to hear he may be the next coach.
Wanting Miller to stay isnt about sentiment. He's doing a good job with a lottery team. The players seem to respect and play hard for him. Is good with Xs and Os, big on details. Miller worked his way up the organization.
Not so sure Thibs has a great rep outside of Ex-Bulls who he famously ran into the ground, with multiple players ending up in the hospital. KAT might be a Diva, but he is part of the younger NBA generation that Thibs apparently had trouble connecting with. Thibs is an old school coach, not confident he can connect with players who arent willing to be ridden as hard as his vets were in Chicago.
As a Knicks fan, if Thibs was introduced, there would be some questions Id like to see answered
What lessons have you learned from your last coaching gig? Do you believe in load mgmt for vets? Will anything be different from your last stop?
I dont see this move attracting elite players. They will see another coach on the Knicks coaching carousel.
Think you are debating a point no one is disagreeing with. No one is saying Miller has been a bad coach. Or that he does not have a chance. Like Miller. What I am saying is that if you look at the writing on the wall and what has been the issue for the Knicks the last few years is the inability to attract elite players. Why do you think Dolan hired Rose? His developmental skills? Why do you think he hired a new PR company? He was not happy with the Knicks value? Rose was brought in here to attract elite players and try to win NOW. If you think Miller fits that objective, you will be quickly disappointed. If there is someone else besides Thibs that can attract players as well, that may be the hire. But again, always liked Thibs.
Uptown wrote:This. It seems too business as usual to hire a guy that is a friend and needs a break. Hiring the friend that campaigns the hardest to get you to hire him doesn't seem like a good start to build a franchise the right way. A shared vision between the front office and the coach is usually the best practice. Not a fan of a Thibs hire in 2020.fishmike wrote:Uptown wrote:Not a really a fan of hiring Thibs, but it makes zero sense to force him to add Miller and or Sullivan to his staff. Which ever coach the Knicks hire should be allowed to from his own staff.it comes down to why, and we wont have any visibility so its an issue of blind faith (always good for Knick fans).If Rose hires Thibs as a "NY guy" who is going to push players to be tough then we are phucked.
But if they actually know Thibs as a basketball guy and share a vision regarding growing the team and org in a way where Thib's strengths are really capitalized on that's a different story. I feel like there are good and bad and in-between reasons to bring in a guy like Thibs. Of course we will never know until its too late but there are good scenarios where Thibs comes in and 100% is the right guy.
If this was 2010, I would be excited!! 10 years later, the game has seemed to sprint right passed him...His offensive sets were uninspiring, and his calling-card, which was on the defensive end, failed him. His teams ranked 27th out of 30 on the defensive side of the ball for 2 of the 3 yrs he was in Minny. He seemed to wear out his welcome pretty fast. What's the over under on Thibs wearing out his welcome here?
But if they actually know Thibs as a basketball guy and share a vision regarding growing the team and org in a way where Thib's strengths are really capitalized on that's a different story.Would love for the front office to find a coach with a shared vision of growing the team...that's what most established, well run franchises do. If Thibs is the guy, I can't help but wonder if its Rose doing a favor for a friend and former client, and also giving the nod to a former Knick.
HofstraBBall wrote:Uptown wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:blkexec wrote:Miller is a rookie....Thibs is a vet.....Inever liked JVG when he was coaching the knicks. Offense was boring. Thibs at least has coached recently and has adjusted to today's basketball. Plus his roots on defense doesnt go away. Hes one of the best defensive minded coaches out there, next to JVG.Right now, it doesnt matter what moves we make, until we develop an identity. Thibs will help lead that cultural change, and attract other two way defensive minded players like Morris.
Agree with this. Understand the love for Miller but also feel Knick fans are enamored with underdog blue color guys. Not a bad thing but unrealistic. IMO, just getting a decent guy to coach the team, Miller, leaves out the most important factor needed for the Knicks right now. Lets face it, NO ONE wants to come here. Except to get overpaid. Thibs has a much better rep, league wide, then Miller. He changes the perspective for many fee agents. Rose knows that. He knows that we need to be able to attract the elite players in the league. Dolan also knows that. Reason why he hired Rose. NO way Miller sticks. Like the guy but he is a better fit for teams looking to slowly develop young players. And feel Dolan is tired of doing that and now looking to get some big names and win. Always liked Thibs so either way, happy to hear he may be the next coach.
This should be our agenda...We should be in full rebuild mode. The cycle of quick fixes is why we've been stuck on the hamster wheel for the past 20 years....Hopefully Rose is smart enough to see that.
The slow cycle of waiting to see how our draft picks pan out, years of ignoring how our draft picks are not as projected and endless reboots are just as tiring. The good news is that the six years of nothing have resulted in having enough assets to put a decent team together. Not saying to give everything away for some injured, older vet who has seen his best years pass him by. But whats wrong with finally wanting to put the fruits of those meaningless years to work? One thing is for sure, not a fan of continuing the losing seasons just for a hopeful chance of getting a savior.
The problem is, we've never embraced a full rebuild. We half-ass everything. Those meaningless years hasn't produced much ripe fruit because of mismanagement, musical chairs in the front office and on the sidelines, lack of cohesion, half-ass rebuilds, and poor ownership. The ripest of all fruit (KP) got away which set us back another 3 yrs at least. We are left with Mitch and RJ, hardly enough to move on with.
Agreed, the losing does get tiring, but if the losing comes at the expense of developing our players, building a culture, growing with management and coaches, then I'm fine with it. But 5 coaches in 6 years, 4 presidents in 6 years has caused us to reboot more than anything. I'm hoping that Rose is here for the long haul so we can finally put a vision in place and follow through with it. Hopefully, he hires a coach that shares his vision and he too will be here for a while. Unfortunately, we have an owner with an itchy trigger finger that can't stay out of his own way and unfortunately, the likelihood of another reboot is probably on the horizon...
HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:blkexec wrote:Miller is a rookie....Thibs is a vet.....Inever liked JVG when he was coaching the knicks. Offense was boring. Thibs at least has coached recently and has adjusted to today's basketball. Plus his roots on defense doesnt go away. Hes one of the best defensive minded coaches out there, next to JVG.Right now, it doesnt matter what moves we make, until we develop an identity. Thibs will help lead that cultural change, and attract other two way defensive minded players like Morris.
Agree with this. Understand the love for Miller but also feel Knick fans are enamored with underdog blue color guys. Not a bad thing but unrealistic. IMO, just getting a decent guy to coach the team, Miller, leaves out the most important factor needed for the Knicks right now. Lets face it, NO ONE wants to come here. Except to get overpaid. Thibs has a much better rep, league wide, then Miller. He changes the perspective for many fee agents. Rose knows that. He knows that we need to be able to attract the elite players in the league. Dolan also knows that. Reason why he hired Rose. NO way Miller sticks. Like the guy but he is a better fit for teams looking to slowly develop young players. And feel Dolan is tired of doing that and now looking to get some big names and win. Always liked Thibs so either way, happy to hear he may be the next coach.
Wanting Miller to stay isnt about sentiment. He's doing a good job with a lottery team. The players seem to respect and play hard for him. Is good with Xs and Os, big on details. Miller worked his way up the organization.
Not so sure Thibs has a great rep outside of Ex-Bulls who he famously ran into the ground, with multiple players ending up in the hospital. KAT might be a Diva, but he is part of the younger NBA generation that Thibs apparently had trouble connecting with. Thibs is an old school coach, not confident he can connect with players who arent willing to be ridden as hard as his vets were in Chicago.
As a Knicks fan, if Thibs was introduced, there would be some questions Id like to see answered
What lessons have you learned from your last coaching gig? Do you believe in load mgmt for vets? Will anything be different from your last stop?
I dont see this move attracting elite players. They will see another coach on the Knicks coaching carousel.
Think you are debating a point no one is disagreeing with. No one is saying Miller has been a bad coach. Or that he does not have a chance. Like Miller. What I am saying is that if you look at the writing on the wall and what has been the issue for the Knicks the last few years is the inability to attract elite players. Why do you think Dolan hired Rose? His developmental skills? Why do you think he hired a new PR company? He was not happy with the Knicks value? Rose was brought in here to attract elite players and try to win NOW. If you think Miller fits that objective, you will be quickly disappointed. If there is someone else besides Thibs that can attract players as well, that may be the hire. But again, always liked Thibs.
You're arguing a point I havent made. Said repeatedly that Id be fine if Rose went out and found an elite coach, or someone in the college ranks who had the potential to be one. Instead Im hearing that its a good idea to replace a coach who has made more out of less, with a coach who made less out of more, his last stop. And to compound things, over someone who worked his way up the org.
He was awful with the wolves and had full control of the team. He ran his players into the ground in Chicago and I don’t think he’s going to excite free agents. He’s a good coach and tremendous defensively, but I’m a pass here.
Honesty btw him and Miller I like what Mike brings. This roster is terrible and he’s done a good job of keeping it together.
GustavBahler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:blkexec wrote:Miller is a rookie....Thibs is a vet.....Inever liked JVG when he was coaching the knicks. Offense was boring. Thibs at least has coached recently and has adjusted to today's basketball. Plus his roots on defense doesnt go away. Hes one of the best defensive minded coaches out there, next to JVG.Right now, it doesnt matter what moves we make, until we develop an identity. Thibs will help lead that cultural change, and attract other two way defensive minded players like Morris.
Agree with this. Understand the love for Miller but also feel Knick fans are enamored with underdog blue color guys. Not a bad thing but unrealistic. IMO, just getting a decent guy to coach the team, Miller, leaves out the most important factor needed for the Knicks right now. Lets face it, NO ONE wants to come here. Except to get overpaid. Thibs has a much better rep, league wide, then Miller. He changes the perspective for many fee agents. Rose knows that. He knows that we need to be able to attract the elite players in the league. Dolan also knows that. Reason why he hired Rose. NO way Miller sticks. Like the guy but he is a better fit for teams looking to slowly develop young players. And feel Dolan is tired of doing that and now looking to get some big names and win. Always liked Thibs so either way, happy to hear he may be the next coach.
Wanting Miller to stay isnt about sentiment. He's doing a good job with a lottery team. The players seem to respect and play hard for him. Is good with Xs and Os, big on details. Miller worked his way up the organization.
Not so sure Thibs has a great rep outside of Ex-Bulls who he famously ran into the ground, with multiple players ending up in the hospital. KAT might be a Diva, but he is part of the younger NBA generation that Thibs apparently had trouble connecting with. Thibs is an old school coach, not confident he can connect with players who arent willing to be ridden as hard as his vets were in Chicago.
As a Knicks fan, if Thibs was introduced, there would be some questions Id like to see answered
What lessons have you learned from your last coaching gig? Do you believe in load mgmt for vets? Will anything be different from your last stop?
I dont see this move attracting elite players. They will see another coach on the Knicks coaching carousel.
Think you are debating a point no one is disagreeing with. No one is saying Miller has been a bad coach. Or that he does not have a chance. Like Miller. What I am saying is that if you look at the writing on the wall and what has been the issue for the Knicks the last few years is the inability to attract elite players. Why do you think Dolan hired Rose? His developmental skills? Why do you think he hired a new PR company? He was not happy with the Knicks value? Rose was brought in here to attract elite players and try to win NOW. If you think Miller fits that objective, you will be quickly disappointed. If there is someone else besides Thibs that can attract players as well, that may be the hire. But again, always liked Thibs.
You're arguing a point I havent made. Said repeatedly that Id be fine if Rose went out and found an elite coach, or someone in the college ranks who had the potential to be one. Instead Im hearing that its a good idea to replace a coach who has made more out of less, with a coach who made less out of more, his last stop. And to compound things, over someone who worked his way up the org.
Did not say anything is a good idea? Just telling you what the obvious signs are pointing to. Btw, You just made the same point that you claim your not making. That this has something to do with Miller's ability or potential and Thibs lack there of. Which btw is solely your opinion and a separate discussion as Thibs has a much better reputation and longer NBA experience. No matter how many times people bring up the Wolves tenure or the ole "he ran the Bulls to the ground" rant. One of which is a weak argument considering the Wolves have done very little since he left.
Point again was that the Knicks need elite players and that Rose was hired to attract those players. Rational would dictate that his next move will be to hire a higher profile coach to help attract them.. Thibs meets that criteria. Do not agree that Miller or someone in the college ranks does.
HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:blkexec wrote:Miller is a rookie....Thibs is a vet.....Inever liked JVG when he was coaching the knicks. Offense was boring. Thibs at least has coached recently and has adjusted to today's basketball. Plus his roots on defense doesnt go away. Hes one of the best defensive minded coaches out there, next to JVG.Right now, it doesnt matter what moves we make, until we develop an identity. Thibs will help lead that cultural change, and attract other two way defensive minded players like Morris.
Agree with this. Understand the love for Miller but also feel Knick fans are enamored with underdog blue color guys. Not a bad thing but unrealistic. IMO, just getting a decent guy to coach the team, Miller, leaves out the most important factor needed for the Knicks right now. Lets face it, NO ONE wants to come here. Except to get overpaid. Thibs has a much better rep, league wide, then Miller. He changes the perspective for many fee agents. Rose knows that. He knows that we need to be able to attract the elite players in the league. Dolan also knows that. Reason why he hired Rose. NO way Miller sticks. Like the guy but he is a better fit for teams looking to slowly develop young players. And feel Dolan is tired of doing that and now looking to get some big names and win. Always liked Thibs so either way, happy to hear he may be the next coach.
Wanting Miller to stay isnt about sentiment. He's doing a good job with a lottery team. The players seem to respect and play hard for him. Is good with Xs and Os, big on details. Miller worked his way up the organization.
Not so sure Thibs has a great rep outside of Ex-Bulls who he famously ran into the ground, with multiple players ending up in the hospital. KAT might be a Diva, but he is part of the younger NBA generation that Thibs apparently had trouble connecting with. Thibs is an old school coach, not confident he can connect with players who arent willing to be ridden as hard as his vets were in Chicago.
As a Knicks fan, if Thibs was introduced, there would be some questions Id like to see answered
What lessons have you learned from your last coaching gig? Do you believe in load mgmt for vets? Will anything be different from your last stop?
I dont see this move attracting elite players. They will see another coach on the Knicks coaching carousel.
Think you are debating a point no one is disagreeing with. No one is saying Miller has been a bad coach. Or that he does not have a chance. Like Miller. What I am saying is that if you look at the writing on the wall and what has been the issue for the Knicks the last few years is the inability to attract elite players. Why do you think Dolan hired Rose? His developmental skills? Why do you think he hired a new PR company? He was not happy with the Knicks value? Rose was brought in here to attract elite players and try to win NOW. If you think Miller fits that objective, you will be quickly disappointed. If there is someone else besides Thibs that can attract players as well, that may be the hire. But again, always liked Thibs.
You're arguing a point I havent made. Said repeatedly that Id be fine if Rose went out and found an elite coach, or someone in the college ranks who had the potential to be one. Instead Im hearing that its a good idea to replace a coach who has made more out of less, with a coach who made less out of more, his last stop. And to compound things, over someone who worked his way up the org.
Did not say anything is a good idea? Just telling you what the obvious signs are pointing to. Btw, You just made the same point that you claim your not making. That this has something to do with Miller's ability or potential and Thibs lack there of. Which btw is solely your opinion and a separate discussion as Thibs has a much better reputation and longer NBA experience. No matter how many times people bring up the Wolves tenure or the ole "he ran the Bulls to the ground" rant. One of which is a weak argument considering the Wolves have done very little since he left.
Point again was that the Knicks need elite players and that Rose was hired to attract those players. Rational would dictate that his next move will be to hire a higher profile coach to help attract them.. Thibs meets that criteria. Do not agree that Miller or someone in the college ranks does.
Gee, didnt realize your opinion wasnt an opinion. Thibs was given the power to build a team that didnt go far. A team whose stars he alienated. With his calling card, defense, at the bottom of the league. Thats more than opinion.
As well as the fact that Bulls players ended up in the hospital from being on the court too long. Those werent contact injuries.
We're supposed to ignore all that, why? Because Thibs was an asst. in NY eons ago? If they're going to replace Miller, the bar should be higher.
GustavBahler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:blkexec wrote:Miller is a rookie....Thibs is a vet.....Inever liked JVG when he was coaching the knicks. Offense was boring. Thibs at least has coached recently and has adjusted to today's basketball. Plus his roots on defense doesnt go away. Hes one of the best defensive minded coaches out there, next to JVG.Right now, it doesnt matter what moves we make, until we develop an identity. Thibs will help lead that cultural change, and attract other two way defensive minded players like Morris.
Agree with this. Understand the love for Miller but also feel Knick fans are enamored with underdog blue color guys. Not a bad thing but unrealistic. IMO, just getting a decent guy to coach the team, Miller, leaves out the most important factor needed for the Knicks right now. Lets face it, NO ONE wants to come here. Except to get overpaid. Thibs has a much better rep, league wide, then Miller. He changes the perspective for many fee agents. Rose knows that. He knows that we need to be able to attract the elite players in the league. Dolan also knows that. Reason why he hired Rose. NO way Miller sticks. Like the guy but he is a better fit for teams looking to slowly develop young players. And feel Dolan is tired of doing that and now looking to get some big names and win. Always liked Thibs so either way, happy to hear he may be the next coach.
Wanting Miller to stay isnt about sentiment. He's doing a good job with a lottery team. The players seem to respect and play hard for him. Is good with Xs and Os, big on details. Miller worked his way up the organization.
Not so sure Thibs has a great rep outside of Ex-Bulls who he famously ran into the ground, with multiple players ending up in the hospital. KAT might be a Diva, but he is part of the younger NBA generation that Thibs apparently had trouble connecting with. Thibs is an old school coach, not confident he can connect with players who arent willing to be ridden as hard as his vets were in Chicago.
As a Knicks fan, if Thibs was introduced, there would be some questions Id like to see answered
What lessons have you learned from your last coaching gig? Do you believe in load mgmt for vets? Will anything be different from your last stop?
I dont see this move attracting elite players. They will see another coach on the Knicks coaching carousel.
Think you are debating a point no one is disagreeing with. No one is saying Miller has been a bad coach. Or that he does not have a chance. Like Miller. What I am saying is that if you look at the writing on the wall and what has been the issue for the Knicks the last few years is the inability to attract elite players. Why do you think Dolan hired Rose? His developmental skills? Why do you think he hired a new PR company? He was not happy with the Knicks value? Rose was brought in here to attract elite players and try to win NOW. If you think Miller fits that objective, you will be quickly disappointed. If there is someone else besides Thibs that can attract players as well, that may be the hire. But again, always liked Thibs.
You're arguing a point I havent made. Said repeatedly that Id be fine if Rose went out and found an elite coach, or someone in the college ranks who had the potential to be one. Instead Im hearing that its a good idea to replace a coach who has made more out of less, with a coach who made less out of more, his last stop. And to compound things, over someone who worked his way up the org.
Did not say anything is a good idea? Just telling you what the obvious signs are pointing to. Btw, You just made the same point that you claim your not making. That this has something to do with Miller's ability or potential and Thibs lack there of. Which btw is solely your opinion and a separate discussion as Thibs has a much better reputation and longer NBA experience. No matter how many times people bring up the Wolves tenure or the ole "he ran the Bulls to the ground" rant. One of which is a weak argument considering the Wolves have done very little since he left.
Point again was that the Knicks need elite players and that Rose was hired to attract those players. Rational would dictate that his next move will be to hire a higher profile coach to help attract them.. Thibs meets that criteria. Do not agree that Miller or someone in the college ranks does.
Gee, didnt realize your opinion wasnt an opinion. Thibs was given the power to build a team that didnt go far. A team whose stars he alienated. With his calling card, defense, at the bottom of the league. Thats more than opinion.
As well as the fact that Bulls players ended up in the hospital from being on the court too long. Those werent contact injuries.
We're supposed to ignore all that, why? Because Thibs was an asst. in NY eons ago? If they're going to replace Miller, the bar should be higher.
I agree with that...bar could be higher. And yes Thibs has some negatives in his NBA coaching experience.
But do you really want a coach with no scares, to coach a team filled with media sharks, and a non- NYer who doesn't understand the culture of NY basketball.
or
A coach that knows the culture, and actually has NBA coaching experience with lessons to learn from.
I look at it this way, both coaches Miller and Thibs, are not long term, but they have potential. And Miller shouldn't be fired or let go. I actually like him and the players like him, so he should stick around.
But this is a new Marketing team.....Mills is gone......Dolan is back in full control.....I think Dolan did his best at this rebuilding thing (hint: Knicks do not have a long history at rebuilding from the bottom up). And with his luck, the knicks are still the most valuable franchise, during all those years of bad basketball. But championships is not why the knicks are valuable. It's the star power that comes with entertaining high profile fans at MSG. Dolan needs superstars to sell tickets. So if he can't get NBA superstars, he hired the agent of those superstars.
The good news is, having Rose, doesn't appear to mean we stop rebuilding the roster. But at some point soon, Dolan will turn all these assets into star players....you can see it coming with every lost. Rose has that type of pull amongst players (see Miami banana boat championships whom I was told was part of), to orchestrate multiple moves to get 2 or 3 top players to come to MSG. Meanwhile, let the kids try and prove themselves, while being coached by an old school NY type defensive minded coach, with scares but also enough experience to be known by players and others in the NBA. And the key is he wants to be here. VS Phil Jackson, for example, didn't....until the money was too high.
Miller or Thibs.....Is it really worth a discussion. Neither would move the needle....But I can see the arguement to add Thibs.....Maybe the smart move is to add him as an assistant. See what Miller does for the rest of the season, then make a decision then. There's no rush for the FO....Since Thibs is not a top tier coach thats available, but hes another stop gap, and potential culture change agent, due to his defensive perception as a coach. The roster is still a mess, and thats where the change must happen!
My frustrations with this team & their owner has certainly dissuaded me in giving them anymore of my money.
But I would like it if they hired Thibs bc he will get the best out of the players remaining on the roster. Coaches like Fizdale have coddled this team. Like that Thibs has a “mamba” mentality when coaching players. He is very much respected by players and coaches in the league.
The coach needs to be the leader & loudest voice in the front office.
Taj Gibson on this team is significant bc he has been coached by Thibs for a long time.
Thibs needs to be allowed to bring in his own players; which is different from Phil Jackson bc Thibs will actually be coaching those players.
Regarding Thibs defensive rating, does anyone think he might have known all this too? That maybe the issue was the players in part? That he could not reach them? We talking about mostly Wiggins and KAT.
Maybe “Hey Thibs, if you got back in the NBA what would you do different?” “What is it about Minny thats just messed up?”
Maybe as a coach he got the bulls to excel beyond their expectation. Noah we know was really not an intense worker. Rose had massive ego issues and then injuries, and Butler wanted out after Thibs left. Seems to me that the issues in Chicago and Minny were not cured when he left.
I’m not saying he was not at fault, but you had unique circumstances at both places and yet some of you assume all that replicates. Its also assumed Thibs does not evolve himself.
At the very worst did he leave those franchises in better shape then when he got there? Were they poised to get to the next level but he in all actuality have taken them as high as they could go. By doing so “burned them out”?
Nalod wrote:Are we as fans to think we know if Thibs would detract from a player coming here vs. a super agent? I mean guys, yah really think Rose would prioritize Thibs need to coach as a friend vs. the many good points bought up might be a detriment?
Regarding Thibs defensive rating, does anyone think he might have known all this too? That maybe the issue was the players in part? That he could not reach them? We talking about mostly Wiggins and KAT.
Maybe “Hey Thibs, if you got back in the NBA what would you do different?” “What is it about Minny thats just messed up?”
Maybe as a coach he got the bulls to excel beyond their expectation. Noah we know was really not an intense worker. Rose had massive ego issues and then injuries, and Butler wanted out after Thibs left. Seems to me that the issues in Chicago and Minny were not cured when he left.
I’m not saying he was not at fault, but you had unique circumstances at both places and yet some of you assume all that replicates. Its also assumed Thibs does not evolve himself.
At the very worst did he leave those franchises in better shape then when he got there? Were they poised to get to the next level but he in all actuality have taken them as high as they could go. By doing so “burned them out”?
We tried this already with Fizdale, who I liked when we added him, and I liked last year,
But Miller's success where Fizdale failed proved me wrong.
I think those of us who are against Thibs feel like he will end up just like Fizdale.
Uptown wrote:fishmike wrote:Uptown wrote:Not a really a fan of hiring Thibs, but it makes zero sense to force him to add Miller and or Sullivan to his staff. Which ever coach the Knicks hire should be allowed to from his own staff.it comes down to why, and we wont have any visibility so its an issue of blind faith (always good for Knick fans).If Rose hires Thibs as a "NY guy" who is going to push players to be tough then we are phucked.
But if they actually know Thibs as a basketball guy and share a vision regarding growing the team and org in a way where Thib's strengths are really capitalized on that's a different story. I feel like there are good and bad and in-between reasons to bring in a guy like Thibs. Of course we will never know until its too late but there are good scenarios where Thibs comes in and 100% is the right guy.
If this was 2010, I would be excited!! 10 years later, the game has seemed to sprint right passed him...His offensive sets were uninspiring, and his calling-card, which was on the defensive end, failed him. His teams ranked 27th out of 30 on the defensive side of the ball for 2 of the 3 yrs he was in Minny. He seemed to wear out his welcome pretty fast. What's the over under on Thibs wearing out his welcome here?
But if they actually know Thibs as a basketball guy and share a vision regarding growing the team and org in a way where Thib's strengths are really capitalized on that's a different story.Would love for the front office to find a coach with a shared vision of growing the team...that's what most established, well run franchises do. If Thibs is the guy, I can't help but wonder if its Rose doing a favor for a friend and former client, and also giving the nod to a former Knick.
Isn't that what all presidents do, they hire people they know and are comfortable with.
Your going to be rank pretty low defensively if Towns and wiggins is on your squad playing heavy minutes..
Veterans want to win, most young guys just want to play, and when you have a locker that's split 50/50, it's never going to be good, and IMO that's what THIBs had to deal with in MINNY..
franco12 wrote:Nalod wrote:Are we as fans to think we know if Thibs would detract from a player coming here vs. a super agent? I mean guys, yah really think Rose would prioritize Thibs need to coach as a friend vs. the many good points bought up might be a detriment?
Regarding Thibs defensive rating, does anyone think he might have known all this too? That maybe the issue was the players in part? That he could not reach them? We talking about mostly Wiggins and KAT.
Maybe “Hey Thibs, if you got back in the NBA what would you do different?” “What is it about Minny thats just messed up?”
Maybe as a coach he got the bulls to excel beyond their expectation. Noah we know was really not an intense worker. Rose had massive ego issues and then injuries, and Butler wanted out after Thibs left. Seems to me that the issues in Chicago and Minny were not cured when he left.
I’m not saying he was not at fault, but you had unique circumstances at both places and yet some of you assume all that replicates. Its also assumed Thibs does not evolve himself.
At the very worst did he leave those franchises in better shape then when he got there? Were they poised to get to the next level but he in all actuality have taken them as high as they could go. By doing so “burned them out”?We tried this already with Fizdale, who I liked when we added him, and I liked last year,
But Miller's success where Fizdale failed proved me wrong.
I think those of us who are against Thibs feel like he will end up just like Fizdale.
Lets get one thing straight, Nalod is not for Thibs. What Im doing is moving a dialog to understand and look at it logically. Thibs has succeeded in areas Fizdale has not. So he has cred.
Every situation/team/players are unique and never duplicated. What Thibs had in Chicago he did not have in Minny. Different owners, dynamics, players, etc.
Its also apparent not all coaches from the "Tree" will succeed. Some do, some don't. Be nice to find a guy like Quinn Snyder. But look how long it took him to ascend and get a NBA job. Plus, he had to have the right ownership group as well.
Miller is a hard worker, x's and 0's good coach. His college career is long but his break came when he was hired as assistant coach of Spurs G league and then got the gig in Westchester. Has to be said Gleague with hits high turnover and unique circumstances is not the same dynamic as NBA. Taking over as interim is not the same as full time over a long term contract. That can all agree on.
Fiz might have done well with a stacked team. We don't know. He was over his head here. Just because MIller has improved on that does not mean he is NBA head coaching material. Technically he can coach. Just don't know if long term he can at this level. So much more than just x's and O's. I like the guy, and yes, I would advocate for him but its more than the obvious.
Thibs if he is the same I'd expect then to do a three year stint.
Lets be real, about 95% of NBA coaches get fired or reach their usefulness. Some get to retire. Larry Brown knew he would frazzle the best of organizations after a few years and it was understood. He came in and in most cased elevated the team and then it was time. I'd go in with an open mind with Thibs but his GM has to be on board with it as well. After a few years Im sure they will want to duck tape to the office chair and roll him down 7th ave.
MS wrote:This is there big name hire, Thibs?Everyone says THibs was awful with the Wolves. Why do people keep saying this? They had 47 wins under Thibs and havent seen anything close before or afte that. Wake up.He was awful with the wolves and had full control of the team. He ran his players into the ground in Chicago and I don’t think he’s going to excite free agents. He’s a good coach and tremendous defensively, but I’m a pass here.
Honesty btw him and Miller I like what Mike brings. This roster is terrible and he’s done a good job of keeping it together.
If we are going to talk about Thibs job in Minn can we be accurate and truthful? He brought in Jimmy Butler and won 47 games. Turns out that KAT doesnt play defense, doesnt want to, and his happy scoring and now hanging with his best bro DRuss while losing tons of games and getting paid. THAT and the fact that KAT is untradable drove Buttler nuts and sunk the team. Butler didnt want to be there and KAT didnt want Thibs there. Did you know Tracy McGrady did the same to Doc Rivers in Orlando and got Rivers fired from that coaching gig? Imagine if Doc Rivers wasnt rehired because he ran those guys into the ground and didnt work well with TMac...
Please... Thibs is a good coach and has done well in his two NBA stints.
People here see Mike Miller's 13-22 and think he's Vince phucking Lombardi. I like the guy too. Not much perspective here tho!
knicks1248 wrote:Uptown wrote:fishmike wrote:Uptown wrote:Not a really a fan of hiring Thibs, but it makes zero sense to force him to add Miller and or Sullivan to his staff. Which ever coach the Knicks hire should be allowed to from his own staff.it comes down to why, and we wont have any visibility so its an issue of blind faith (always good for Knick fans).If Rose hires Thibs as a "NY guy" who is going to push players to be tough then we are phucked.
But if they actually know Thibs as a basketball guy and share a vision regarding growing the team and org in a way where Thib's strengths are really capitalized on that's a different story. I feel like there are good and bad and in-between reasons to bring in a guy like Thibs. Of course we will never know until its too late but there are good scenarios where Thibs comes in and 100% is the right guy.
If this was 2010, I would be excited!! 10 years later, the game has seemed to sprint right passed him...His offensive sets were uninspiring, and his calling-card, which was on the defensive end, failed him. His teams ranked 27th out of 30 on the defensive side of the ball for 2 of the 3 yrs he was in Minny. He seemed to wear out his welcome pretty fast. What's the over under on Thibs wearing out his welcome here?
But if they actually know Thibs as a basketball guy and share a vision regarding growing the team and org in a way where Thib's strengths are really capitalized on that's a different story.Would love for the front office to find a coach with a shared vision of growing the team...that's what most established, well run franchises do. If Thibs is the guy, I can't help but wonder if its Rose doing a favor for a friend and former client, and also giving the nod to a former Knick.
Isn't that what all presidents do, they hire people they know and are comfortable with.
Your going to be rank pretty low defensively if Towns and wiggins is on your squad playing heavy minutes..
Veterans want to win, most young guys just want to play, and when you have a locker that's split 50/50, it's never going to be good, and IMO that's what THIBs had to deal with in MINNY..
Rose has KAT as a client. Rose job is to get him paid. He knows his issues, strengths and weakness. KAT was coached by Thibs. I think Rose knows what he is getting into if that's the direction.
Don't be surprised if he Hires Wright with Thibs as top assistant to help him with the NBA x's and O's. Might be another college guy or euro not Wright.
Nothing surprises me. Its the fun part about the knicks.
franco12 wrote:Nalod wrote:Are we as fans to think we know if Thibs would detract from a player coming here vs. a super agent? I mean guys, yah really think Rose would prioritize Thibs need to coach as a friend vs. the many good points bought up might be a detriment?
Regarding Thibs defensive rating, does anyone think he might have known all this too? That maybe the issue was the players in part? That he could not reach them? We talking about mostly Wiggins and KAT.
Maybe “Hey Thibs, if you got back in the NBA what would you do different?” “What is it about Minny thats just messed up?”
Maybe as a coach he got the bulls to excel beyond their expectation. Noah we know was really not an intense worker. Rose had massive ego issues and then injuries, and Butler wanted out after Thibs left. Seems to me that the issues in Chicago and Minny were not cured when he left.
I’m not saying he was not at fault, but you had unique circumstances at both places and yet some of you assume all that replicates. Its also assumed Thibs does not evolve himself.
At the very worst did he leave those franchises in better shape then when he got there? Were they poised to get to the next level but he in all actuality have taken them as high as they could go. By doing so “burned them out”?We tried this already with Fizdale, who I liked when we added him, and I liked last year,
But Miller's success where Fizdale failed proved me wrong.
I think those of us who are against Thibs feel like he will end up just like Fizdale.
Was Fiz's bar so low that anything above it has Miller having "success"?
I'm in the boat that Miller has been a breathe of fresh air after Fiz but after the initial bump it seems like the Knicks are treading water again.