Knicks · Frank is only 22, I think this is his break out year I’d be hesitant to draft a PG (page 3)
Chandler wrote:
i'm not trying to strain the analogy but both Gary Payton and Chauncey Billups were very good players who were all D early on and took a while for their offense to comelets be patient
Franks attributes will have a bigger impact when he's surrounded by a few allstars. Look at how invaluable Dortz has become for OKC. He's able to shine because he has Chris Paul, Alexander, Adams and Gallo beside him.
With that said, I agree that we need to be more patient with Frank, but keep in mind, as good as Payton was on defense, he was an elite scorer in college, averaged 26 pts per his last yr at Oregon St. and 20 before that. Billups averaged 19 pts per in college so both showed the ability to score the ball, it just took some time to adjust to the NBA. Frank has never showed the same ability as those two to score the ball. On a good team, Frank scoring over 16 would be an added bonus considering how he can impact the game without scoring much.
Uptown wrote:Chandler wrote:
i'm not trying to strain the analogy but both Gary Payton and Chauncey Billups were very good players who were all D early on and took a while for their offense to comelets be patient
Franks attributes will have a bigger impact when he's surrounded by a few allstars. Look at how invaluable Dortz has become for OKC. He's able to shine because he has Chris Paul, Alexander, Adams and Gallo beside him.With that said, I agree that we need to be more patient with Frank, but keep in mind, as good as Payton was on defense, he was an elite scorer in college, averaged 26 pts per his last yr at Oregon St. and 20 before that. Billups averaged 19 pts per in college so both showed the ability to score the ball, it just took some time to adjust to the NBA. Frank has never showed the same ability as those two to score the ball. On a good team, Frank scoring over 16 would be an added bonus considering how he can impact the game without scoring much.
I agree on the patience and think his time with the Knicks has been very fucked up (coaches, Mudiay, Payton, etc.).
How much do they extend him and for how many years? His Qualifying Offer after this next season is $8M, and on any normal team, guys offered around that are usually VERY useful, almost impactful role players. Where is the bet on Frank?
I would give him a 2-3 years with team option for last year. 3 x $6-7? 3 x $8? Too much?
martin wrote:Uptown wrote:Chandler wrote:
i'm not trying to strain the analogy but both Gary Payton and Chauncey Billups were very good players who were all D early on and took a while for their offense to comelets be patient
Franks attributes will have a bigger impact when he's surrounded by a few allstars. Look at how invaluable Dortz has become for OKC. He's able to shine because he has Chris Paul, Alexander, Adams and Gallo beside him.With that said, I agree that we need to be more patient with Frank, but keep in mind, as good as Payton was on defense, he was an elite scorer in college, averaged 26 pts per his last yr at Oregon St. and 20 before that. Billups averaged 19 pts per in college so both showed the ability to score the ball, it just took some time to adjust to the NBA. Frank has never showed the same ability as those two to score the ball. On a good team, Frank scoring over 16 would be an added bonus considering how he can impact the game without scoring much.
I agree on the patience and think his time with the Knicks has been very fucked up (coaches, Mudiay, Payton, etc.).
How much do they extend him and for how many years? His Qualifying Offer after this next season is $8M, and on any normal team, guys offered around that are usually VERY useful, almost impactful role players. Where is the bet on Frank?
I would give him a 2-3 years with team option for last year. 3 x $6-7? 3 x $8? Too much?
That's going to still happen with DSJ, harper and what ever starting guard they acquire or draft.
If he's part of that tight rotation you extend him, if he's not then you trade him, you certainly don't let him walk for nothing.
Uptown wrote: Look at how invaluable Dortz has become for OKC. He's able to shine because he has Chris Paul, Alexander, Adams and Gallo beside him. .
Dortz will actually play along game flow. You take what the defense gives you. There are times what the defense is giving Frank N is a clean look and he won't take the shot. He's not quarterbacking the defense (And if you aren't helping the offense, and defense is your bread and butter, that's what you should do) He's not playing with relentless aggression. (If you are going to fail, then at least fail hard)
I think the Knicks will keep him because he's still cheap-ish this year and they want to give Thibs some kind of defense and his trade value is bottomed out. But honestly if the Knicks could get cash and a 2nd for him, I'd move him. He hasn't had major injury and it's not for limited pathway to minutes ( he has lost minutes but he hasn't earned them either) Even with a mini breakout, there's just something unsettling about a guy pushing in a contract year in a way he wouldn't before.
He doesn't play hungry. He plays passive and what he does off ball really is the concerning issue. He just tends to coast off ball. Stephen Curry as a rookie got to a not so great team. But even when he played with ball hogs, he did things the right way. Was probably frustrating, but it was about discipline and playing the game the right way. I'm not comparing Curry to Frank N, but I'm talking about the mindset. Even if you are surrounded by nimrod ballhogs like Trier and Kanter and Randle, you still need to play with discipline and purpose.
Frank N does not look purposeful. Maybe a veteran roster or a different more stable organization can get into his head better, but you need to do everything for a reason and with a goal in mind. He just seems to wander.
Sucks to say but sometimes it's wrong player/right time or right player/wrong time, either way, it's better to break up.
knicks1248 wrote:martin wrote:Uptown wrote:Chandler wrote:
i'm not trying to strain the analogy but both Gary Payton and Chauncey Billups were very good players who were all D early on and took a while for their offense to comelets be patient
Franks attributes will have a bigger impact when he's surrounded by a few allstars. Look at how invaluable Dortz has become for OKC. He's able to shine because he has Chris Paul, Alexander, Adams and Gallo beside him.With that said, I agree that we need to be more patient with Frank, but keep in mind, as good as Payton was on defense, he was an elite scorer in college, averaged 26 pts per his last yr at Oregon St. and 20 before that. Billups averaged 19 pts per in college so both showed the ability to score the ball, it just took some time to adjust to the NBA. Frank has never showed the same ability as those two to score the ball. On a good team, Frank scoring over 16 would be an added bonus considering how he can impact the game without scoring much.
I agree on the patience and think his time with the Knicks has been very fucked up (coaches, Mudiay, Payton, etc.).
How much do they extend him and for how many years? His Qualifying Offer after this next season is $8M, and on any normal team, guys offered around that are usually VERY useful, almost impactful role players. Where is the bet on Frank?
I would give him a 2-3 years with team option for last year. 3 x $6-7? 3 x $8? Too much?
That's going to still happen with DSJ, harper and what ever starting guard they acquire or draft.
If he's part of that tight rotation you extend him, if he's not then you trade him, you certainly don't let him walk for nothing.
Good god I hope so. If just to not read your droning endlessly the same 5 things over and over!
But, if he is not good enough to crack the rotation on the 6th worst team then how much trade value does he have?
Sometimes you move on looking ahead and just keep going.
TripleThreat wrote:Uptown wrote: Look at how invaluable Dortz has become for OKC. He's able to shine because he has Chris Paul, Alexander, Adams and Gallo beside him. .
Dortz will actually play along game flow. You take what the defense gives you. There are times what the defense is giving Frank N is a clean look and he won't take the shot. He's not quarterbacking the defense (And if you aren't helping the offense, and defense is your bread and butter, that's what you should do) He's not playing with relentless aggression. (If you are going to fail, then at least fail hard)I think the Knicks will keep him because he's still cheap-ish this year and they want to give Thibs some kind of defense and his trade value is bottomed out. But honestly if the Knicks could get cash and a 2nd for him, I'd move him. He hasn't had major injury and it's not for limited pathway to minutes ( he has lost minutes but he hasn't earned them either) Even with a mini breakout, there's just something unsettling about a guy pushing in a contract year in a way he wouldn't before.
He doesn't play hungry. He plays passive and what he does off ball really is the concerning issue. He just tends to coast off ball. Stephen Curry as a rookie got to a not so great team. But even when he played with ball hogs, he did things the right way. Was probably frustrating, but it was about discipline and playing the game the right way. I'm not comparing Curry to Frank N, but I'm talking about the mindset. Even if you are surrounded by nimrod ballhogs like Trier and Kanter and Randle, you still need to play with discipline and purpose.
Frank N does not look purposeful. Maybe a veteran roster or a different more stable organization can get into his head better, but you need to do everything for a reason and with a goal in mind. He just seems to wander.
Sucks to say but sometimes it's wrong player/right time or right player/wrong time, either way, it's better to break up.
A lot of what you say is true but i am hopeful for change. Thibs needs to tell Frank to be fantastic at D, be a stopper, and the rest will happen. I think since Frank has been here the attitude has been to criticize his offense and it's been playing mind games. Noah sucked on offense
He needs to simplify some roles and with some success he'll get confidence. And FWIW i haven't seen a lot of teammates taking him under their wing; instead we snag junk and has beens, Mudiay, DSJ, Payton
That said, if Thibs can't get juice out of him i don't think anyone will.
TripleThreat wrote:
He doesn't play hungry. He plays passive and what he does off ball really is the concerning issue. He just tends to coast off ball. ...
Frank N does not look purposeful. Maybe a veteran roster or a different more stable organization can get into his head better, but you need to do everything for a reason and with a goal in mind. He just seems to wander.Sucks to say but sometimes it's wrong player/right time or right player/wrong time, either way, it's better to break up.
Couldn't disagree more. Frank on defense is the very definition of hungry. He's relentless, active, and moving non-stop. Now, you could say he doesn't play hungry _on offense_, and I would agree with you, but on D, he's as hungry as they come.
This is his 4th yr though. If he is to stick with the Knicks this is the time to put it all together. His handle is tighter, he should be more filled out, and he no longer needs to be passive to veterans.
newyorknewyork wrote:Frank has teased us with games like vs USA, vs Dallas twice, 20-10 game in this thread, and the gm vs Houston which was one of the last games before Covid. Games where he was putting in work on both sides of the ball helping lead his team to victories.This is his 4th yr though. If he is to stick with the Knicks this is the time to put it all together. His handle is tighter, he should be more filled out, and he no longer needs to be passive to veterans.
I advocated drafting Frank in 2017 and am sticking with it
I think he was incredibly raw and not physically or mentally ready his rookie year. Next 2 seasons he stagnated under Fizdale who hated him and Perry was obsessed with playing DSJ so he could get vindicated for the Porzinigis trade
Thibs loves defense. With Frank and Mitch he has a chance to have a really good defensive team next season
PG- FVV
SG- Frank
SF- RJ
Compete well against other teams? Can this line up with a true stretch 4 like Bertans or Woods and Mitch be a decent young starting 5 that can compete game after game?
I honestly think Frank should be cemented in the knicks line up for a long time. Looking at the consistent playoff contenders in the league alot of them have their lockdown defender that eats up 20-25mins a game or more and average around 5pts or so. Players that contribute way beyond the boxscores to help the team win. Boston has Marcus Smart, Frank is that player for the knicks. It will be a bad move by the front office to give up on Frank now.