Knicks · I'm not a long term buyer of RJ's high level potential/talent (page 10)

BigDaddyG wrote:<snip>
I can see some of the Paul Pierce comparisons. But Paul was bigger, had a purer jumpshot and had an easier time getting his shot off. I think guys like Caron Butler and Butler are better comps.

Pierce was a 4 year college player and could shoot out of the gate as a 21 year old rookie. Pierce was in the league for a LOOONG time and all I can remember was Pierce in his prime when he had all the tools in his game. He was like a slightly less explosive Kobe.

Jimmy Butler was a 22 year old rookie and didn't look like he had the makings of an all-star until his 4th season.

RJ seems like more of a north south player at this point - when he drives, he drives hard. He hasn't unleashed a lot of trickery in his game, post ups, fadeaways, spin moves. As he adds little tidbits to his arsenal (and continues to gain confidence on his jumper), he'll become a more effective offensive player. From a defensive standpoint, he's improved leaps and bounds year over year. At this point, it's actually nice to say that his Defensive rating of 111 has now matched Jimmy Butler's worst season. :)

(Maybe he'll work out with Duke brethren Tatum and Ingram next summer and get some pointers on how they made the leap from good to elite)

it's easy to forget RJ is still kind of a kid.

technomaster wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:<snip>
I can see some of the Paul Pierce comparisons. But Paul was bigger, had a purer jumpshot and had an easier time getting his shot off. I think guys like Caron Butler and Butler are better comps.

Pierce was a 4 year college player and could shoot out of the gate as a 21 year old rookie. Pierce was in the league for a LOOONG time and all I can remember was Pierce in his prime when he had all the tools in his game. He was like a slightly less explosive Kobe.

Jimmy Butler was a 22 year old rookie and didn't look like he had the makings of an all-star until his 4th season.

RJ seems like more of a north south player at this point - when he drives, he drives hard. He hasn't unleashed a lot of trickery in his game, post ups, fadeaways, spin moves. As he adds little tidbits to his arsenal (and continues to gain confidence on his jumper), he'll become a more effective offensive player. From a defensive standpoint, he's improved leaps and bounds year over year. At this point, it's actually nice to say that his Defensive rating of 111 has now matched Jimmy Butler's worst season. :)

(Maybe he'll work out with Duke brethren Tatum and Ingram next summer and get some pointers on how they made the leap from good to elite)

I dont remember Pierce being a sniper but a dependable shooter, and I never saw him as being explosive. He had the same frame. Seemed to me to have the same type of skillet, same bully but smooth game. I don't see Jimmy Butler at all.

joec32033 wrote:

technomaster wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:<snip>
I can see some of the Paul Pierce comparisons. But Paul was bigger, had a purer jumpshot and had an easier time getting his shot off. I think guys like Caron Butler and Butler are better comps.

Pierce was a 4 year college player and could shoot out of the gate as a 21 year old rookie. Pierce was in the league for a LOOONG time and all I can remember was Pierce in his prime when he had all the tools in his game. He was like a slightly less explosive Kobe.

Jimmy Butler was a 22 year old rookie and didn't look like he had the makings of an all-star until his 4th season.

RJ seems like more of a north south player at this point - when he drives, he drives hard. He hasn't unleashed a lot of trickery in his game, post ups, fadeaways, spin moves. As he adds little tidbits to his arsenal (and continues to gain confidence on his jumper), he'll become a more effective offensive player. From a defensive standpoint, he's improved leaps and bounds year over year. At this point, it's actually nice to say that his Defensive rating of 111 has now matched Jimmy Butler's worst season. :)

(Maybe he'll work out with Duke brethren Tatum and Ingram next summer and get some pointers on how they made the leap from good to elite)

I dont remember Pierce being a sniper but a dependable shooter, and I never saw him as being explosive. He had the same frame. Seemed to me to have the same type of skillet, same bully but smooth game. I don't see Jimmy Butler at all.

Just at MSG or against the Knicks in general

martin wrote:

joec32033 wrote:<snip>

I dont remember Pierce being a sniper but a dependable shooter, and I never saw him as being explosive. He had the same frame. Seemed to me to have the same type of skillet, same bully but smooth game. I don't see Jimmy Butler at all.

Just at MSG or against the Knicks in general

The main thing I see in the RJ/Butler comparison is that they're both "power" wings - they're at their best when they are attack the basket.
He was 1st round/pick 30 our of Marquette. Obviously a lot of teams didn't see him turning out to the star he is today.

Check out their respective scouting reports from college:
https://www.nbadraft.net/players/rj-barr...
https://www.nbadraft.net/players/jimmy-b...

I do see similarities to RJ based on this Butler college highlight reel:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4g0pr0hbbc[/youtube]

He looks RJ-athletic, not ultra fast-twitchy/quick in these highlights. I think Butler really made tremendous all-around improvements as a pro - more athletic, more explosive, more skilled, everything. I think he got his minutes from Thibs early on as ultra-aggressive sub on defense, then growing his offense from there.

Thibs is grooming RJ differently, though. He's giving him huge minutes from the get-go and is training him to pace his game. One think I've noted about RJ is his relatively low steals numbers. It seems as if his focus this year has to become a more fundamentally sound positional defender. With his length, you'd expect him to be a little more disruptive, causing loose balls. He plays a controlled game.

technomaster wrote:

martin wrote:

joec32033 wrote:<snip>

I dont remember Pierce being a sniper but a dependable shooter, and I never saw him as being explosive. He had the same frame. Seemed to me to have the same type of skillet, same bully but smooth game. I don't see Jimmy Butler at all.

Just at MSG or against the Knicks in general

The main thing I see in the RJ/Butler comparison is that they're both "power" wings - they're at their best when they are attack the basket.
He was 1st round/pick 30 our of Marquette. Obviously a lot of teams didn't see him turning out to the star he is today.

Check out their respective scouting reports from college:
https://www.nbadraft.net/players/rj-barr...
https://www.nbadraft.net/players/jimmy-b...

I do see similarities to RJ based on this Butler college highlight reel:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4g0pr0hbbc[/youtube]

He looks RJ-athletic, not ultra fast-twitchy/quick in these highlights. I think Butler really made tremendous all-around improvements as a pro - more athletic, more explosive, more skilled, everything. I think he got his minutes from Thibs early on as ultra-aggressive sub on defense, then growing his offense from there.

Thibs is grooming RJ differently, though. He's giving him huge minutes from the get-go and is training him to pace his game. One think I've noted about RJ is his relatively low steals numbers. It seems as if his focus this year has to become a more fundamentally sound positional defender. With his length, you'd expect him to be a little more disruptive, causing loose balls. He plays a controlled game.

Jimmy has that extra gear and maybe it's the highlights or maybe Butler was able to grow into it after college after some training. I don't think RJ has the extra gear and has already reached his near max potential in that area. He'll get stronger but not faster. It takes RJ a long time to load up to jump or even get to max speed while running. His first step is LONG but not quick.

I'm guessing RJ has had and been exposed to professional leveling training for a good percentage of his high school and 1 year at college whereas a guy like Butler did not and had ample room there to change.

martin wrote:

technomaster wrote:

martin wrote:

joec32033 wrote:<snip>

I dont remember Pierce being a sniper but a dependable shooter, and I never saw him as being explosive. He had the same frame. Seemed to me to have the same type of skillet, same bully but smooth game. I don't see Jimmy Butler at all.

Just at MSG or against the Knicks in general

The main thing I see in the RJ/Butler comparison is that they're both "power" wings - they're at their best when they are attack the basket.
He was 1st round/pick 30 our of Marquette. Obviously a lot of teams didn't see him turning out to the star he is today.

Check out their respective scouting reports from college:
https://www.nbadraft.net/players/rj-barr...
https://www.nbadraft.net/players/jimmy-b...

I do see similarities to RJ based on this Butler college highlight reel:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4g0pr0hbbc[/youtube]

He looks RJ-athletic, not ultra fast-twitchy/quick in these highlights. I think Butler really made tremendous all-around improvements as a pro - more athletic, more explosive, more skilled, everything. I think he got his minutes from Thibs early on as ultra-aggressive sub on defense, then growing his offense from there.

Thibs is grooming RJ differently, though. He's giving him huge minutes from the get-go and is training him to pace his game. One think I've noted about RJ is his relatively low steals numbers. It seems as if his focus this year has to become a more fundamentally sound positional defender. With his length, you'd expect him to be a little more disruptive, causing loose balls. He plays a controlled game.

Jimmy has that extra gear and maybe it's the highlights or maybe Butler was able to grow into it after college after some training. I don't think RJ has the extra gear and has already reached his near max potential in that area. He'll get stronger but not faster. It takes RJ a long time to load up to jump or even get to max speed while running. His first step is LONG but not quick.

I'm guessing RJ has had and been exposed to professional leveling training for a good percentage of his high school and 1 year at college whereas a guy like Butler did not and had ample room there to change.

RJ makes up not having that next gear with some shiftiness in his game...on the break he is always euroing to get to the cup because he does not have that last sec burst...defenders bounce off him...

He has a deliberate game like Pierce...I think he is going to end up a way above avg two way threat...with dose of play making

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martin wrote:

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Had an excellent preseason as well. So overall other than that poor streak of games he has been a stud.

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

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Had an excellent preseason as well. So overall other than that poor streak of games he has been a stud.

Extremely impressive shooting numbers for a player that has a poor touch around the basket and a poor perimeter shoot. I guess it speaks to his improved shot selection?

We can only imagine what his stats will look like once his shot actually improves!

martin wrote:

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RJ so underrated.

technomaster wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

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Had an excellent preseason as well. So overall other than that poor streak of games he has been a stud.

Extremely impressive shooting numbers for a player that has a poor touch around the basket and a poor perimeter shoot. I guess it speaks to his improved shot selection?

We can only imagine what his stats will look like once his shot actually improves!

RJ worked hard on the offseason to improve his perimeter and free throw shooting and it has paid off

It’s not impossible for NBA players to improve at shooting. Jason Kidd went from not being able to put the ball in the ocean first 15 years of his career to a 3 and D guy

                               W/L      Min    Pts     FG      FGA      FG%
FEB 13, 2021	NYK vs. HOU     W	22	7	2	8	25.0%	
FEB 12, 2021	NYK @ WAS	W	26	8	3	13	23.1%	
FEB 09, 2021	NYK @ MIA	L	27	13	5	14	35.7%	
FEB 07, 2021	NYK vs. MIA	L	19	3	1	6	16.7%	

dwiley20 wrote:we should use him as trade bait..hes not that good!! Quickley has done more damage than he has in 2 years.....We need V. Oladipo

Best check out his recent stat lines before you commit to that. Makes RJ look competent for his experience

dwiley20 wrote:we should use him as trade bait..hes not that good!! Quickley has done more damage than he has in 2 years.....We need V. Oladipo

Oladipo this year has been Barrett at 3 times the cost

We all hate Elf because he is such a bad shooter, among other things.

You compare Elf’s shooting stats for the season to RJ’s and it’s relatively similar and it ain’t pretty

martin wrote:Don’t hate me for being the messenger.

We all hate Elf because he is such a bad shooter, among other things.

You compare Elf’s shooting stats for the season to RJ’s and it’s relatively similar and it ain’t pretty

Well, we ignored the first 10 games of the season, decided they were an aberration when RJ went on a 10 or so game run of shooting 50-40-85 and said aha, that’s the real RJ. Then he literally fell off a cliff against Miami and just hasn’t produced much in 4 games. It’s like he’s channeling his inner Kevin Knox.

We’ll assume he’s quietly nursing some injury, no doubt associated with an absurd workload to start the season. For a guy to go from averaging like 38mpg then suddenly averaging low 20s, it’s odd that he’d go out of the coach’s favor so quick. Or maybe they finally looked at the advanced analytics.

technomaster wrote:

martin wrote:Don’t hate me for being the messenger.

We all hate Elf because he is such a bad shooter, among other things.

You compare Elf’s shooting stats for the season to RJ’s and it’s relatively similar and it ain’t pretty

Well, we ignored the first 10 games of the season, decided they were an aberration when RJ went on a 10 or so game run of shooting 50-40-85 and said aha, that’s the real RJ. Then he literally fell off a cliff against Miami and just hasn’t produced much in 4 games. It’s like he’s channeling his inner Kevin Knox.

We’ll assume he’s quietly nursing some injury, no doubt associated with an absurd workload to start the season. For a guy to go from averaging like 38mpg then suddenly averaging low 20s, it’s odd that he’d go out of the coach’s favor so quick. Or maybe they finally looked at the advanced analytics.

This is all fair. I hope the 50-40-80 is more the baseline than anything