Knicks · Nerlens Noel Sour grapes or legit? (page 1)

Ineresting lawsuite https://www.basketballnews.com/stories/n... He has bought to Rich Paul and Klutch. I would expect a “standard of care” expectation league and union expects its registered agents to follow. I suppose its boils down to if there were legit offers that Klutch was neglegent to disclose or did Noel simply play his cards wrong? Obviously we know the result and sometimes players over reach (Schroeder). This lawsuite alleges negligence. Now that he has a longer term deal the financial numbers are more aparent now. If Norlens has statements from execs that they were looking to make an offer and his agent ignored them he might have a case. I expect players or ex players could be expected to be called as witness if they were clients.
As we all have seen its a bit of a slimy business. Paul worked for Rose at CAA and took Lebron from Leon as his marquee client when he started Klutch in 2012. NBA investigated to disclose Lebron has no ownership stake in the agency.
Many star agents have left firms to start there own shops. What Paul did is not unusual.

Turning down the big contract isn't on Rich Paul. But if he did not return calls or act on behalf of his client than that's different. Naming Brett Brown was big. If he provides some sort of proof than this might have legs. People who read the headline will focus on the contract, but the details of essentially freezing out his own client is the real issue here.

Everyone knows that the decision not to accept the offer and take the QO instead was stupid. I want to say that it was clear at that time as well. You never know what the future holds for you and the decision between guaranteed $ 70M and gambling to maybe get a little more should be clear to everyone. That is why almost no one takes a QO in such a situation. And no one smart will do in the future.

If the agent really suggested he do it, it is very questionable advice that could not be based on past experiences. But in the whole story, the accusation that the agent was not available all summer and that the interested teams could not reach him in any way is even more controversial. If the people from those teams confirm that story, Noel might have a base for some kind of compensation there.

The Post's version basically makes it a case of negligence; Nerlens wasn't a big enough fish to spend time returning phone calls on. I'm honestly trying to figure out what the hell would Rich Paul get out of "freezing" Noel out?

Malpractice exists in many professions where you've essentially hired someone to be your expert or agent. You may want to blame Noel for not taking the extension, but he had Rich Paul+team as trusted advisors and if the advice was you coud make more long haul on the open market by taking the QO he probably followed that believing that was the best strategy. I don't know Rich Paul+firm's motivations, but malpractice could happen for a variety of reasons- de-prioritization, incompetence, poor execution etc. Remember Rich Paul was a guy who was Lebron's buddy who was selling throwback jersey's from the trunk of his car. Not saying Paul hasn't been a good agent/advisor to Lebron+others, but he didn't come into the profession with a law degree or other negotiating background. If Noel was down his list of priorities all this seems pretty plausible. I tend to believe Noel here given he has named specific teams he came to find out later had interest, but never got to the negotiating table with his agents.

Knixkik wrote:Turning down the big contract isn't on Rich Paul. But if he did not return calls or act on behalf of his client than that's different. Naming Brett Brown was big. If he provides some sort of proof than this might have legs. People who read the headline will focus on the contract, but the details of essentially freezing out his own client is the real issue here.

it certainly was if Paul instructed Noel to do so on the faith that he was going to deliver a bigger payday then didnt do his job. I bet Noel gets paid because there is no way Paul's office is going to stomach the discovery phase and it sounds like Noel's case it strong enough to move forward. They will settle.

VDesai wrote:Malpractice exists in many professions where you've essentially hired someone to be your expert or agent. You may want to blame Noel for not taking the extension, but he had Rich Paul+team as trusted advisors and if the advice was you coud make more long haul on the open market by taking the QO he probably followed that believing that was the best strategy. I don't know Rich Paul+firm's motivations, but malpractice could happen for a variety of reasons- de-prioritization, incompetence, poor execution etc. Remember Rich Paul was a guy who was Lebron's buddy who was selling throwback jersey's from the trunk of his car. Not saying Paul hasn't been a good agent/advisor to Lebron+others, but he didn't come into the profession with a law degree or other negotiating background. If Noel was down his list of priorities all this seems pretty plausible. I tend to believe Noel here given he has named specific teams he came to find out later had interest, but never got to the negotiating table with his agents.

agree, and its also been a long time. Meaning Noel has since found out teams were trying to reach out on him an Paul wasnt passing that info to Noel? Thats really incredible and nauseating. I know we have one as pres but agents are known for scruples or honor

You hire a agent to negotiate deals, you hire a manager to give you advise and manage your career.

At the end of the day NOEL makes the final decision, your agent can advise all he wants, nobody knows you better than you, and he knows damn well he's not a max player and never has been(those are usually two way high level players) something he's not.

Turning down 70 mill because LBJ friend told you..lol

knicks1248 wrote:You hire a agent to negotiate deals, you hire a manager to give you advise and manage your career.

At the end of the day NOEL makes the final decision, your agent can advise all he wants, nobody knows you better than you, and he knows damn well he's not a max player and never has been(those are usually two way high level players) something he's not.

Turning down 70 mill because LBJ friend told you..lol

100%. If Noel was given an offer sheet of 70 mm and turned it down. Advice what have you. That’s on him. What’s the difference between 70 and 90 million? Answer at that point not much. Noel is a greedy fool who is the ultimate boss. Now if he got an offer similar and wasn’t told — and there is legit proof— whole different ball game.

BRIGGS wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:You hire a agent to negotiate deals, you hire a manager to give you advise and manage your career.

At the end of the day NOEL makes the final decision, your agent can advise all he wants, nobody knows you better than you, and he knows damn well he's not a max player and never has been(those are usually two way high level players) something he's not.

Turning down 70 mill because LBJ friend told you..lol

100%. If Noel was given an offer sheet of 70 mm and turned it down. Advice what have you. That’s on him. What’s the difference between 70 and 90 million? Answer at that point not much. Noel is a greedy fool who is the ultimate boss. Now if he got an offer similar and wasn’t told — and there is legit proof— whole different ball game.

wow you guys should have coffee

Sorry guys- one would expect the expert negotiator you hire and pay 15% of your wages to, to be able to know the market and give you advice on how the maximize your earnings. Nerlens Noel is a basketball player who knows how to block shots and rebound, not read the market for his salary and understand the intricacies of the cap. At the end of the day its up to each individual to take or not take the advice, but its not hard to understand why Noel would take his agents advice. That's what they are paid for.

jrodmc wrote:The Post's version basically makes it a case of negligence; Nerlens wasn't a big enough fish to spend time returning phone calls on. I'm honestly trying to figure out what the hell would Rich Paul get out of "freezing" Noel out?

its the part where Paul doesnt do his job representing Noel and its been discovered other teams were asking about Noel and it never got back to him. Noel skipped a big payday for a bigger payday under the guidance of Paul. That is obviously on Noel. Noel gets hurt, doesnt play a ton and his value drops. Thats not the issue. The issue is Paul stopped representing/presenting Noel to teams and teams asked about Noel and it never got back to him. There is def some shady aspects here and I think Noel gets paid because he's got some names now and there is no way Paul's firm will let a discovery happen. They can drag it out for a very very long time as well.

VDesai wrote:Sorry guys- one would expect the expert negotiator you hire and pay 15% of your wages to, to be able to know the market and give you advice on how the maximize your earnings. Nerlens Noel is a basketball player who knows how to block shots and rebound, not read the market for his salary and understand the intricacies of the cap. At the end of the day its up to each individual to take or not take the advice, but its not hard to understand why Noel would take his agents advice. That's what they are paid for.

and its not even the advice part... its that Paul stopped working for him. He got calls from teams about Noel and blew that shit off.

Knixkik wrote:Turning down the big contract isn't on Rich Paul. But if he did not return calls or act on behalf of his client than that's different. Naming Brett Brown was big. If he provides some sort of proof than this might have legs. People who read the headline will focus on the contract, but the details of essentially freezing out his own client is the real issue here.

I hadn't heard that piece about Brett.

https://www.si.com/nba/76ers/news/former...

But former Sixers head coach Brett Brown allegedly proved that wasn't the case. In Heitner's report, he notes that Noel initially learned from his former head that the 76ers were reaching out to his representatives during the offseason to try and work out a deal for a reunion. Rich Paul "refused to respond," according to the report.

Later on, Noel reportedly found out that was the case with several teams. Over the last few years, Noel has been a free agent twice. Both times, the Sixers were rumored to be linked to the big man as he would've been a stellar backup for the team's MVP finalist Joel Embiid.

Each time Noel was linked to the Sixers but never actually signed, there was never any concrete proof as to whether there was truly an effort to sign Noel or not. While Paul hasn't confirmed or denied wrongdoing on his behalf, the report indicates that the Sixers attempted to form a Nerlens Noel reunion a few years back. Unfortunately, it seems they weren't able to negotiate properly.

If you have actual names and officials who can substantiate that - that's pretty damning. It ended up working out in our favor, but hope Noel gets paid!

fishmike wrote:

VDesai wrote:Sorry guys- one would expect the expert negotiator you hire and pay 15% of your wages to, to be able to know the market and give you advice on how the maximize your earnings. Nerlens Noel is a basketball player who knows how to block shots and rebound, not read the market for his salary and understand the intricacies of the cap. At the end of the day its up to each individual to take or not take the advice, but its not hard to understand why Noel would take his agents advice. That's what they are paid for.

and its not even the advice part... its that Paul stopped working for him. He got calls from teams about Noel and blew that shit off.

I don't believe he just him blew off.

It's a good title to this thread because both of those guys think they are really better than they are, and make terrible decisions

Didn't EMbiid just negotiated a 196 million dollar contract on his own..

BRIGGS wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:You hire a agent to negotiate deals, you hire a manager to give you advise and manage your career.

At the end of the day NOEL makes the final decision, your agent can advise all he wants, nobody knows you better than you, and he knows damn well he's not a max player and never has been(those are usually two way high level players) something he's not.

Turning down 70 mill because LBJ friend told you..lol

100%. If Noel was given an offer sheet of 70 mm and turned it down. Advice what have you. That’s on him. What’s the difference between 70 and 90 million? Answer at that point not much. Noel is a greedy fool who is the ultimate boss. Now if he got an offer similar and wasn’t told — and there is legit proof— whole different ball game.

How can both of you render an opinion when you don’t ask the right questions?

The difference between 70 to 90 is 28%.

Easy to negotiate on your own when you're pretty much a sure-fire max contract sort of player. When you're not, things get a bit murky.
I brought up the curious case of backup center salaries in the NBA.

For your contract dollar, you could get the likes of 35yo Dwight Howard (former DPOTY, too many accolades to speak up) signing $2.6m deals over the past few years; Hassan Whiteside (still only 32, technically in his prime with low miles!) getting a $2.4m deal with the Jazz.

Then you have Noel signing a 3yr/$27m deal - in spite of having the most stone in his hands of the bunch, being the least talented offensive player, and not have any of the defensive accolades of either.

Yeah, I understand that Howard and Whiteside signed with contenders and both of them have had $20m+ per season deals in the past... but money is money and hey, aren't the Knicks a playoff team now too?

The point though is that unless you're really at a clear all-star level, there's a pretty wide range of what's acceptable.

jrodmc wrote:The Post's version basically makes it a case of negligence; Nerlens wasn't a big enough fish to spend time returning phone calls on. I'm honestly trying to figure out what the hell would Rich Paul get out of "freezing" Noel out?

Question is, why did he wait so long? This happened in 2017. Especially only after Klutch recently filed a grievance claiming Noel had not paid commission on his first NY contract. The timing is suspicious.

Understand how that decision was a kick in the nuts though. He probably has not had a good night's sleep since he turned that deal down.

At the end of the day, it's on Noel, unless Paul was directed to take the deal and he refused or if Paul guaranteed a bigger deal in writing. Noel is the one that knew what was on the table and got a bit greedy and then got unlucky with the injury. Us normal folk just do not understand how anyone can turn down $70M guaranteed. But these guys are dealing with absurd money.

Time to ice those marbles........

Nerlens must not be self aware to turn that kind of contract down. That offer won’t come around again for him.

We just don’t really know the whole story do we? Guy might be ready to sign, Paul convinces him its too small and he will get him paid, but he has to have the freedom that comes with waiting. Obviously this is not the issue. Its the implied negligence is. Nobody here feels sorry for him. But if hired a man to do a job, and he did not then that is the issue.

Why wait? Maybe now that he got a multi year deal the damage is measurable? Maybe it took time for the laywers to build a case and they got testimonial that can verify? Remember they have to demonstrate to a court there is a case before the go to trial. Most get negotiated settlement. Mabye it has no leg to stand on? Maybe Paul is adamant that he is golden and Norlens holding his commission is him just having regret?
I don’t know.

fishmike wrote:

VDesai wrote:Malpractice exists in many professions where you've essentially hired someone to be your expert or agent. You may want to blame Noel for not taking the extension, but he had Rich Paul+team as trusted advisors and if the advice was you coud make more long haul on the open market by taking the QO he probably followed that believing that was the best strategy. I don't know Rich Paul+firm's motivations, but malpractice could happen for a variety of reasons- de-prioritization, incompetence, poor execution etc. Remember Rich Paul was a guy who was Lebron's buddy who was selling throwback jersey's from the trunk of his car. Not saying Paul hasn't been a good agent/advisor to Lebron+others, but he didn't come into the profession with a law degree or other negotiating background. If Noel was down his list of priorities all this seems pretty plausible. I tend to believe Noel here given he has named specific teams he came to find out later had interest, but never got to the negotiating table with his agents.

agree, and its also been a long time. Meaning Noel has since found out teams were trying to reach out on him an Paul wasnt passing that info to Noel? Thats really incredible and nauseating. I know we have one as pres but agents are known for scruples or honor

Is this hearsay? Noel guessing? Clients always claim agents are not doing enough and are missing out on possible deals. Do not see why an agent would not follow through on a deal that would result in a commission? This seems motivated by the grievance filed and by some ambulance-chasing attorney in his ear. Paul did nothing wrong as many NBA players are instructed to wait until they are unrestricted. As it improves the overall market for that player. I am sure that Noel knew the risk of injury as it exists in every sport/contract. Noel blaming Paul for an unforeseen injury that created an unfortunate outcome seems like Noel trying to remove any personal responsibility. However, a big firm should have disclosure forms in place where the client is informed of the risks of turning down a guaranteed deal. Would also think that firms this big have notices that clients sign in order to remove the firm's liability in making decisions for the client.