Knicks · Kemba and Rose - platoon, but specific roles (page 1)

I was very critical of Kemba on the game thread, but I'm not a Kemba hater by any means. I'm very excited to have Kemba here. My main point was Rose should have been running the offense at the end of the game, and Kemba playing point down the stretch was the key reason we ended up in overtime.
That said I think there's a clear delineation here that was made apparent by last night's game.

First off, the way I see it, Kemba and Rose are not necessarily the same types of players. Kemba is the definition of the combo guard scorer. Derek Rose is a trained point guard who has been mostly a score first guy, but has all the requisite PG skills. Rose last year proved to be a smart, low turnover ball handler and was a super smart player that effectively picked his spots to score efficiently. Kemba is an explosive offensive player who can break down a D and get hot and shoot the lights out. He isn't a steady hand at PG to run a tight, efficient offense, but he can be a playmaker and rack up lobs/assists with his penetration. Last night Rose didn't shoot well, but in the 2nd OT when he played, the O was more under control and he made a huge shot with the game on the line. Kemba playing with the lead, was foiled by the trap, couldn't get the offense started and gave the game away with a couple of turnovers and was caught in a bad place on D.

So based on the above, the way I see it, when you have a lead at the end of a ball game, Rose is the closer. You need a steady hand to take care of the ball, milk the clock, beat the press and run the offense efficiently, go Rose. You need someone to hit a clutch basket when the defense is keying in, Rose can figure it out.

If you're down 10 pts in the 4th quarter, Rose is a great scorer too, but Kemba can be the type of explosive offensive player to bring you back in the game.

And there are some tight games where you may want both guys - Rose's steady hand and Kemba's shotmaking down the stretch.

I'm fine with Kemba starting games - honestly the first 3 quarters I'm not sure it matters, but its at the end of the game that I want to make sure when the situation dictates, we have a true PG out there.

Over the course of the year Kemba is going to go off for 30+ many times, will be a huge boon as a 2nd scorer and give us some explosion at the start of the games we lacked w/ Payton etc. Having he and Rose out there will preserve each other. But I think last night, he was thrown in a situation that wasn't maximizing his skill and we had the right guy on the bench.

Also, next time I'd like to not see him high fiving a bunch of his old teammates all game...but that's another story that's not relevant to the above!

I love kemba but he’s lost a step.Now his 5-10 comes into play more so. And it showed last night many x. Forget that for a moment. Rose is our second best player. Unless something unusual we win or lose with Rose in the last 6 min — no doubt

NO way does that game go to it with Rose in the last 4 min

I would agree with the OP. Rose and Kemba for stretches, especially early in the season, could prove valuable. Takes the stress off Kemba as a ballhandler, and also allows him to find Mitch and Obi for lobs. I would keep EF in with those two as well. Guy is like a safety valve on O.

This version of DRose is just so damn impressive. Those hops going to rack are so sneaky good. He makes it look like his man is asleep.

Kemba will find his way. First game in the dream uni at MSG.

Nothing to disagree with here.

Last night shouldn't be the bench mark:
New team/coach
Homecoming
"Revenge" game

I expect Kemba will get more comfortable and look better as the season goes on, but it is a reminder to temper expectations. Waiting to see the "Thibs effect" on his defensive awareness. He's never going to be a stopper, but it's got to get better.

Quite frankly, the Kemba/Rose conversation isn't even about Kemba's struggles *areas of opportunity* in my mind. Rose has just been that damn steady and impressive in his second stint. He's earned that confidence to be our closer. Hopefully we see Kemba make the adjustments and make this more of a debate.

I was shocked to see Rose miss so many shots, dude always seems automatic

VDesai wrote:I was very critical of Kemba on the game thread, but I'm not a Kemba hater by any means. I'm very excited to have Kemba here. My main point was Rose should have been running the offense at the end of the game, and Kemba playing point down the stretch was the key reason we ended up in overtime.
That said I think there's a clear delineation here that was made apparent by last night's game.

First off, the way I see it, Kemba and Rose are not necessarily the same types of players. Kemba is the definition of the combo guard scorer. Derek Rose is a trained point guard who has been mostly a score first guy, but has all the requisite PG skills. Rose last year proved to be a smart, low turnover ball handler and was a super smart player that effectively picked his spots to score efficiently. Kemba is an explosive offensive player who can break down a D and get hot and shoot the lights out. He isn't a steady hand at PG to run a tight, efficient offense, but he can be a playmaker and rack up lobs/assists with his penetration. Last night Rose didn't shoot well, but in the 2nd OT when he played, the O was more under control and he made a huge shot with the game on the line. Kemba playing with the lead, was foiled by the trap, couldn't get the offense started and gave the game away with a couple of turnovers and was caught in a bad place on D.

So based on the above, the way I see it, when you have a lead at the end of a ball game, Rose is the closer. You need a steady hand to take care of the ball, milk the clock, beat the press and run the offense efficiently, go Rose. You need someone to hit a clutch basket when the defense is keying in, Rose can figure it out.

If you're down 10 pts in the 4th quarter, Rose is a great scorer too, but Kemba can be the type of explosive offensive player to bring you back in the game.

And there are some tight games where you may want both guys - Rose's steady hand and Kemba's shotmaking down the stretch.

I'm fine with Kemba starting games - honestly the first 3 quarters I'm not sure it matters, but its at the end of the game that I want to make sure when the situation dictates, we have a true PG out there.

Over the course of the year Kemba is going to go off for 30+ many times, will be a huge boon as a 2nd scorer and give us some explosion at the start of the games we lacked w/ Payton etc. Having he and Rose out there will preserve each other. But I think last night, he was thrown in a situation that wasn't maximizing his skill and we had the right guy on the bench.

Also, next time I'd like to not see him high fiving a bunch of his old teammates all game...but that's another story that's not relevant to the above!

Like drinking water, I'd always recommend waiting a month or so before game-planning the roster.

That said, while it's true in the last couple of seasons Walker has turned into more of a combo scoring guard, he's in fact been the true PG fans are seeking for most of his career.

In fact, Walker and Rose's career figures are eerily similar in terms of PG numbers. Nearly identical assist % vs nearly identical usage rates. But Walker has a significant edge in less TOs. They trade off in other areas. Walker shoots better from deep and gets to the line more (where he shoots better) and gets more steals, Rose converts closer to the hoop in better %s.

Upfront, the recent trends do favor Rose if you're looking for distributor first, but Walker has never played for Thibs so again, back to the point ... wait.

It's ALWAYS the best idea.

And the Knicks haven't ended a game in which they've scored less points than the team they've been playing since Walker and Rose became teammates.

There's no fire here.

one game. A tight one where both teams made blunders.
Celtics made some bad mistakes themselves and perhaps our clock management was not treat.
Forniers layup was great but we did not burn off clock. Ok, better to have the points.
Browns long three was amazing.
Fornier doubled Tatum in the back court and left Smart open. Still, smart hit it. GOtta give them credit.
Both teams could have closed out for a win. We have a lot of things to work on, but we got the win. Celts better than any team we faced preseason and perhaps fans enthusiasm will be tested in the coming weeks. Fornier will need time to aclimate to Thibs higher demand for defense. Kemba never a great defender just needs to know where to go and that takes time. Celtics core despite new coach has been together a while.

As for Platooning? Both our PG’s are over 30 and have some chronic issues. The OT minutes are not the usual pattern and Thibs will hve to figure who to close with. Rose came in Fresh which was an advantage for us.

We won a close game. WE won’t win them all. Thibs will make mistakes easy to define in hindsight.

Agreed one game, not saying you will not see Kemba's role evolve. Just saw a clear situation here where we had a 3-4 possesion lead with 4 mins to go. Key here is, don't get trapped, don't turn it over, use some clock. Gotta have a real PG out there and Rose last year proved to be that steady hand for us. Kemba can make clutch shots, but we needed a clutch ballhandler. Rose rarely turned the ball over last year (Rose 2.0 has become a very low turnover rate PG, the career numbers are bit skewed). Felt like we left our best player for the situation on the bench and exposed our new guy a bit, that's all.

At the end just giving my impression of strengths and weaknesses of both players and how we might use them to maximize their skills given the rotation/split they will have. Will be an ongoing story for the season.

Tough loss last night I guess?

Thibs tends to go through 10 game evaluations. He will evaluate how Kemba is performing and make changes to minutes and rotation after about a ten game sample. I agree with the point that Rose is a better option to close games. Due to his bigger size, Rose is likely to perform better on defense and he does run the offense better than Kemba at this point.

VDesai wrote:Agreed one game, not saying you will not see Kemba's role evolve. Just saw a clear situation here where we had a 3-4 possesion lead with 4 mins to go. Key here is, don't get trapped, don't turn it over, use some clock. Gotta have a real PG out there and Rose last year proved to be that steady hand for us. Kemba can make clutch shots, but we needed a clutch ballhandler. Rose rarely turned the ball over last year (Rose 2.0 has become a very low turnover rate PG, the career numbers are bit skewed). Felt like we left our best player for the situation on the bench and exposed our new guy a bit, that's all.

At the end just giving my impression of strengths and weaknesses of both players and how we might use them to maximize their skills given the rotation/split they will have. Will be an ongoing story for the season.

All understood, but it was just one game, with quirks and specifics all its own that sports tell us might just expire like vapor at the end of the game.

The flaw in trying to diagnose how to hold onto the 8-11 point lead with 4 mins to go is it assumes the bad stuff can be "corrected" and he good stuff is a constant.

And that's the problem. Nothing from one game is a constant.

As much as Walker's turnovers hurt, you can't count on Barrett or Toppin off the way he did in the 3rd. It's like trying to jump onto a moving train.

Tomorrow walker and the Knicks might execute flawlessly in the final minutes for no other reason its a new game on a new night.

Let's fix who needs to be on the floor in crunchtime when we have a body of work in which to effectively make those decisions.

One isn't it.

TheGame wrote:Thibs tends to go through 10 game evaluations. He will evaluate how Kemba is performing and make changes to minutes and rotation after about a ten game sample. I agree with the point that Rose is a better option to close games. Due to his bigger size, Rose is likely to perform better on defense and he does run the offense better than Kemba at this point.

At what point?

One game isn't a point.

All we need from Kemba is 20-25mins of nice PG play, with the occasional flamethrower game. I'm not looking at him to be a saviour, we're a nice deep team with lots of players that can get hot. Happy to give him lots of time to find his place

martin wrote:I was shocked to see Rose miss so many shots, dude always seems automatic

So was Rose! He looked a bit befuddled every time his shots missed, just like the rest of him- they were pretty close each time though

smackeddog wrote:

martin wrote:I was shocked to see Rose miss so many shots, dude always seems automatic

So was Rose! He looked a bit befuddled every time his shots missed, just like the rest of him- they were pretty close each time though

Just trying to be a good teammate. Didn't want Kemba to feel any worse.

jrodmc wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

martin wrote:I was shocked to see Rose miss so many shots, dude always seems automatic

So was Rose! He looked a bit befuddled every time his shots missed, just like the rest of him- they were pretty close each time though

Just trying to be a good teammate. Didn't want Kemba to feel any worse.

Or being the good NBA citizen he is trying to keep Jayson Tatum from jumping from the top floor of the Stewart Hotel.

Knickoftime wrote:

TheGame wrote:Thibs tends to go through 10 game evaluations. He will evaluate how Kemba is performing and make changes to minutes and rotation after about a ten game sample. I agree with the point that Rose is a better option to close games. Due to his bigger size, Rose is likely to perform better on defense and he does run the offense better than Kemba at this point.

At what point?

One game isn't a point.

Not sure what your point is. At this point, meaning after watching Rose for a half a season, preseason and this last game and after watching Kemba for some games last year, this preseason and Wednesday, it is clear Kemba still is not comfortable with the offense or defense. Thus, “at this point” Rose has looked like a better option to close games. Now that may not be the case 10 games from now or 30 games from now or it may never change, but that is my opinion based from my observations at this point.

TheGame wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

TheGame wrote:Thibs tends to go through 10 game evaluations. He will evaluate how Kemba is performing and make changes to minutes and rotation after about a ten game sample. I agree with the point that Rose is a better option to close games. Due to his bigger size, Rose is likely to perform better on defense and he does run the offense better than Kemba at this point.

At what point?

One game isn't a point.

Not sure what your point is. At this point, meaning after watching Rose for a half a season, preseason and this last game and after watching Kemba for some games last year, this preseason and Wednesday, it is clear Kemba still is not comfortable with the offense or defense. Thus, “at this point” Rose has looked like a better option to close games. Now that may not be the case 10 games from now or 30 games from now or it may never change, but that is my opinion based from my observations at this point.

I simply don't think 1 game and 3 scrimmages qualify as a point.

Sometimes a lack of information doesn't mean you HAVE to evaluate what you have on hand.

Sometimes it means by wary of drawing conclusion on unreliable info

Knickoftime wrote:

TheGame wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

TheGame wrote:Thibs tends to go through 10 game evaluations. He will evaluate how Kemba is performing and make changes to minutes and rotation after about a ten game sample. I agree with the point that Rose is a better option to close games. Due to his bigger size, Rose is likely to perform better on defense and he does run the offense better than Kemba at this point.

At what point?

One game isn't a point.

Not sure what your point is. At this point, meaning after watching Rose for a half a season, preseason and this last game and after watching Kemba for some games last year, this preseason and Wednesday, it is clear Kemba still is not comfortable with the offense or defense. Thus, “at this point” Rose has looked like a better option to close games. Now that may not be the case 10 games from now or 30 games from now or it may never change, but that is my opinion based from my observations at this point.

I simply don't think 1 game and 3 scrimmages qualify as a point.

Sometimes a lack of information doesn't mean you HAVE to evaluate what you have on hand.

Sometimes it means by wary of drawing conclusion on unreliable info

I keep saying the same thing, but for some reason Leon still won't offer me a 10 day.

BRIGGS wrote:I love kemba but he’s lost a step.Now his 5-10 comes into play more so. And it showed last night many x. Forget that for a moment. Rose is our second best player. Unless something unusual we win or lose with Rose in the last 6 min — no doubt

NO way does that game go to it with Rose in the last 4 min

Kemba defense has always looked like he lost a step. Even in his prime, which is why I was never a huge fan. Where we agree is that kemba lost a step on offense, which was his best defense. He was never a lock down defender, but he could cover up his defense by out scoring his opponent. issues with his offense by out scoring his opponent. This is based on what I observed over the years, since the knicks are always in search for a legit PG. But I believe in thibs and the defensive culture of this team. Kemba will start to put more energy on defense and less on offense. That’s what us old guys that still play do. But at his size and age, I’m not holding my breath. Thank God we have Rose to help finish games and sub in when our PG defense starts looking bad.

Rose was missing shots just like his performance fell off in the playoffs. It’s hard to play both ways at a high level at his age. Your legs turn into spaghetti late in games. And it takes longer to warmup during the game. Hopefully after 10 or more games, Rose and Kemba will play better. I like our veteran PG rotation. Perfect for the playoffs.

I have watched Kemba play since the Big East. I agree that at moments it looks like he lost a step. But I really think it could be an aberration.