Knicks · Bullish on Deuce (page 48)

DLeethal wrote:Deuce and Mitch off the bench proved me wrong. Both guys are disrupters and game changers and mix interchangeably with the starters very well. I see a backup 2 and a backup 5 pretty much locked up for next season. Get a backup 1 and move Josh to bench and get the missing piece for the starters. Then replace Precious with a better depth C.

He's always been the xfactor IMO... he's healthy we are different. He's not it's Precious and yuck after KAT

fishmike wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Deuce and Mitch off the bench proved me wrong. Both guys are disrupters and game changers and mix interchangeably with the starters very well. I see a backup 2 and a backup 5 pretty much locked up for next season. Get a backup 1 and move Josh to bench and get the missing piece for the starters. Then replace Precious with a better depth C.

I think the problem is there has not been any good data so why feel positive about it? Mitch is always hurt and McBride has been banged up and not effective. Now both are looking like they are 100% and crushing it in their roles. The most shocking part is having them healthy (really Mitch).

He's always been the xfactor IMO... he's healthy we are different. He's not it's Precious and yuck after KAT

Mitch took a really good shot to the back by Horford -- nice to have the 4 days to reset physically.

martin wrote:

Panos wrote:

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Deuce and Mitch off the bench proved me wrong. Both guys are disrupters and game changers and mix interchangeably with the starters very well. I see a backup 2 and a backup 5 pretty much locked up for next season. Get a backup 1 and move Josh to bench and get the missing piece for the starters. Then replace Precious with a better depth C.

Your thoughts on that?

While I might agree, I'm not really sure Thibs WANTS to move Josh to the bench. I think Thibs LOVES Josh and what he does.

I think Thibs loves Josh in the starting lineup right now cause of his style of play is so contrasting to all the others, all of whom lack that outward intensity that he brings. As well, right now Josh also fills in skill gaps that the entire lineup is missing too: secondary ball handling, rebounding, transition play.

Find a player that fills enough of those gaps while adding in 3point perimeter spacing, that’s when you’ll see Josh’s spark plug mentality shine off the bench where he can fuck shit up. Josh just turned 30 and has probably a year or 2 that he can handle his current physical workload.

Agree with the bolded. I'm not sure we're going to find a player to fill those gaps + 3pt spacing. That's an allstar.

EwingsGlass wrote:

Panos wrote:

Our little boy is all grown up!

Great moment

Every time I watch this I'm amazed he beats the ball to the glass. Even in slow motion it looks like he's going to be late.

Quickly came off the bench but was more dynamic and important than Grimes. Rose came off the bench but was more dynamic and important than Payton. It would be that sort of deal. Josh’s impact would still be felt for 30+ minutes a night and probably remains a closer. That was his role when we first traded for him if you recall.

DLeethal wrote:I don’t think bringing Josh off the bench is a demotion. He will likely still finish games and play a ton of minutes. It’s more about getting Brunson and KAT better advantages to start games. Hart does neutralize much of what KAT can do and the data with the starting lineup is not good at all.

Quickly came off the bench but was more dynamic and important than Grimes. Rose came off the bench but was more dynamic and important than Payton. It would be that sort of deal. Josh’s impact would still be felt for 30+ minutes a night and probably remains a closer. That was his role when we first traded for him if you recall.

DLeethal wrote:The starting lineup likely doesn’t reach its potential with Josh in it IMO, as long as teams can get away not guarding him.

What’s wild is that this is true and we still were able to beat a 60+ win Championship team. LOL

Realistically the Knicks only tradable contracts are Deuce, Mitch, and a S&T of Precious? I’m doubtful any of the other starting Knicks players are traded within this iteration of the team, mostly because to get back someone above the vet min level, you need a contract to trade.

When can we trade that 2026 pick?

blkexec wrote:Deuce block is top 5 Knicks block ever. I can’t think of 4 blocks that’s better right now, especially when you factor in this was game 6 elimination.

That was a clutch one! Love it.

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:I don’t think bringing Josh off the bench is a demotion. He will likely still finish games and play a ton of minutes. It’s more about getting Brunson and KAT better advantages to start games. Hart does neutralize much of what KAT can do and the data with the starting lineup is not good at all.

Quickly came off the bench but was more dynamic and important than Grimes. Rose came off the bench but was more dynamic and important than Payton. It would be that sort of deal. Josh’s impact would still be felt for 30+ minutes a night and probably remains a closer. That was his role when we first traded for him if you recall.

DLeethal wrote:The starting lineup likely doesn’t reach its potential with Josh in it IMO, as long as teams can get away not guarding him.

What’s wild is that this is true and we still were able to beat a 60+ win Championship team. LOL

Realistically the Knicks only tradable contracts are Deuce, Mitch, and a S&T of Precious? I’m doubtful any of the other starting Knicks players are traded within this iteration of the team, mostly because to get back someone above the vet min level, you need a contract to trade.

When can we trade that 2026 pick?

The Celtics series was one of the oddest series I’ve ever seen. I saw some other analysts like Zach Lowe echo similar. Through 4 games Knicks were up 3-1 while barely holding a lead in any of the games. It was odd stuff. That’s not to say we didn’t earn every bit of it because we did. But it doesn’t erase the holes we see on a nightly basis with the team. It definitely speaks to major pluses this team has in terms of perseverance and clutch play.

DLeethal wrote:

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:I don’t think bringing Josh off the bench is a demotion. He will likely still finish games and play a ton of minutes. It’s more about getting Brunson and KAT better advantages to start games. Hart does neutralize much of what KAT can do and the data with the starting lineup is not good at all.

Quickly came off the bench but was more dynamic and important than Grimes. Rose came off the bench but was more dynamic and important than Payton. It would be that sort of deal. Josh’s impact would still be felt for 30+ minutes a night and probably remains a closer. That was his role when we first traded for him if you recall.

DLeethal wrote:The starting lineup likely doesn’t reach its potential with Josh in it IMO, as long as teams can get away not guarding him.

What’s wild is that this is true and we still were able to beat a 60+ win Championship team. LOL

Realistically the Knicks only tradable contracts are Deuce, Mitch, and a S&T of Precious? I’m doubtful any of the other starting Knicks players are traded within this iteration of the team, mostly because to get back someone above the vet min level, you need a contract to trade.

When can we trade that 2026 pick?

The Celtics series was one of the oddest series I’ve ever seen. I saw some other analysts like Zach Lowe echo similar. Through 4 games Knicks were up 3-1 while barely holding a lead in any of the games. It was odd stuff. That’s not to say we didn’t earn every bit of it because we did. But it doesn’t erase the holes we see on a nightly basis with the team. It definitely speaks to major pluses this team has in terms of perseverance and clutch play.

How about this hypothetical in regards to maximizing the KAT 5-out lineup: Mitch for Herb Jones. Got to give to get. Start Brunson Herb Mikal OG KAT.

I’ll start with saying I don’t know Herb’s game at the nuance level but know the idea. I’d almost view Herb Jones as Asur Thompson light but with some semblance of a 3point shot. Incredible PoA and team defender. Better than Mikal as a defender IMHO. Much better ball handling capability than both Josh and Mikal, and would give Brunson a clear secondary guy when he is pressured. And someone who could fly up the court in transition and even do the SF version of a downhill game in the half court in a way Josh Hart doesn’t. Decent secondary connector. Good cutter. Not afraid to shoot the 3point shot. I don’t know what his rebounding is like.

Herb injured this year with a shoulder thing but would generally play about 70 games. Extra year over Mitch on his contract which will be a godsend for cap. You would hypothetically be selling Mitch at his peak. Maybe he could sustain his current playoff levels but you just never know. Herb has more certainly here and having another wing in the rotation would help Mikal, OG, Josh with their overall minutes.

In this trade you would need to almost guarantee needing to sign someone like Al Horford and some other decent big on the vet market.

SergioNYK wrote:Rewatched the game last night and Deuce was so freaking good! Completely outplayed White and was one of the catalysts in that second quarter when we pulled away. So happy for Deuce! He was a solid 6th man!!

He’s been my key player from the beginning. When he’s on we win and win big. When he’s off, we are 50/50. You can say the same thing about a lot of players which is why we are so dangerous. Mikal is the other key player. He’s on we win. He’s off we 50.

But per contract value, you can’t touch deuce and I hope he’s a Knick forever. I can’t think of anybody in the league that impacts a game as much as him, with the salary he’s getting.

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

martin wrote:

DLeethal wrote:I don’t think bringing Josh off the bench is a demotion. He will likely still finish games and play a ton of minutes. It’s more about getting Brunson and KAT better advantages to start games. Hart does neutralize much of what KAT can do and the data with the starting lineup is not good at all.

Quickly came off the bench but was more dynamic and important than Grimes. Rose came off the bench but was more dynamic and important than Payton. It would be that sort of deal. Josh’s impact would still be felt for 30+ minutes a night and probably remains a closer. That was his role when we first traded for him if you recall.

DLeethal wrote:The starting lineup likely doesn’t reach its potential with Josh in it IMO, as long as teams can get away not guarding him.

What’s wild is that this is true and we still were able to beat a 60+ win Championship team. LOL

Realistically the Knicks only tradable contracts are Deuce, Mitch, and a S&T of Precious? I’m doubtful any of the other starting Knicks players are traded within this iteration of the team, mostly because to get back someone above the vet min level, you need a contract to trade.

When can we trade that 2026 pick?

The Celtics series was one of the oddest series I’ve ever seen. I saw some other analysts like Zach Lowe echo similar. Through 4 games Knicks were up 3-1 while barely holding a lead in any of the games. It was odd stuff. That’s not to say we didn’t earn every bit of it because we did. But it doesn’t erase the holes we see on a nightly basis with the team. It definitely speaks to major pluses this team has in terms of perseverance and clutch play.

How about this hypothetical in regards to maximizing the KAT 5-out lineup: Mitch for Herb Jones. Got to give to get. Start Brunson Herb Mikal OG KAT.

I’ll start with saying I don’t know Herb’s game at the nuance level but know the idea. I’d almost view Herb Jones as Asur Thompson light but with some semblance of a 3point shot. Incredible PoA and team defender. Better than Mikal as a defender IMHO. Much better ball handling capability than both Josh and Mikal, and would give Brunson a clear secondary guy when he is pressured. And someone who could fly up the court in transition and even do the SF version of a downhill game in the half court in a way Josh Hart doesn’t. Decent secondary connector. Good cutter. Not afraid to shoot the 3point shot. I don’t know what his rebounding is like.

Herb injured this year with a shoulder thing but would generally play about 70 games. Extra year over Mitch on his contract which will be a godsend for cap. You would hypothetically be selling Mitch at his peak. Maybe he could sustain his current playoff levels but you just never know. Herb has more certainly here and having another wing in the rotation would help Mikal, OG, Josh with their overall minutes.

In this trade you would need to almost guarantee needing to sign someone like Al Horford and some other decent big on the vet market.

We see eye to eye on this. Hurts losing MitchBeast but that’s a viable move to solidly the best version of Wingstop. With Deuce, Mitch and arguably Hart being the only value pieces we have that aren’t component parts of a starting 5, and Hart being arguably untouchable, you only have lateral moves with Mitch and Deuce to make positional adjustments.

If you could move Mitch for Herb, it fills too many boxes, despite Mitch’s inherent value and seniority on this team. Mitch’s footwork on the Jaylen Brown corner stunned me though. To see the big man move like that made me genuinely happy - for him. He’s had a tough run of it.

In a similar vein, Deuce and assets for Kessler might also make too much sense. Doubt Ainge does anything to help us though.

Best part is, if these changes don’t occur, we still look pretty good. Having this 7 at the start of the season with a few Vet Min or a Taxpayer MLE, with McCullar, Huk, Dadiet and Kolek filling in the blanks… feels pretty good.

EwingsGlass wrote:We see eye to eye on this. Hurts losing MitchBeast but that’s a viable move to solidly the best version of Wingstop. With Deuce, Mitch and arguably Hart being the only value pieces we have that aren’t component parts of a starting 5, and Hart being arguably untouchable, you only have lateral moves with Mitch and Deuce to make positional adjustments.

If you could move Mitch for Herb, it fills too many boxes, despite Mitch’s inherent value and seniority on this team. Mitch’s footwork on the Jaylen Brown corner stunned me though. To see the big man move like that made me genuinely happy - for him. He’s had a tough run of it.

In a similar vein, Deuce and assets for Kessler might also make too much sense. Doubt Ainge does anything to help us though.

Best part is, if these changes don’t occur, we still look pretty good. Having this 7 at the start of the season with a few Vet Min or a Taxpayer MLE, with McCullar, Huk, Dadiet and Kolek filling in the blanks… feels pretty good.

You know what, I never thought of the Deuce for Kessler swap in conjunction with Mitch-Herb type move.

I hate both moves cause of player attachment. But I love the idea and would have to punch myself in the nuts and then pull the trigger on the swaps. Deuce's role on the team is going to be covered or is the easiest to draft or replace enough of the output in scoring; McCullar would be candidate, better all around defense with 3point drop off but better midrange to rim scoring.

How about this thought exercise with NOP: Mitch Deuce for Herb Jones and Karlo Matković. Karlo is a 6-10" bouncey PF/center who has 3point potential. NOP of course love Mitch because he would be a hometown dude and BeastMitch next to Zion to offset each other's output. Deuce would be a long term rotation piece off the bench. Mitch, Zion, Trey Murphy, CJ McCollum, Dejonte with Jose Alvarado, Deuce, Hawkins and Missi off bench. NOP sells themselves on adding C muscle next to Zion to cover his defensive liabilities and then NOP sell themselves on adding 2 playoff caliber vets to stabilize their young core. It's a fairly young team that has balanced defense and shooting around Zion.

Knicks get a perfect Thibs player in Herb Jones. IMO Herb is the type of player who gets easily maximized by Thibs pushing his buttons in the same way as Josh Hart or Luol Deng or Jimmy Butler. Herb is your PoA defender and Mikal has more breathing room to concentrate on midrange killer. Herb is your second PG in the starting lineup and his ball handling in transition could be as effective as Hart's. You also get a young spacer in Karlo who is in the mold of KAT off the bench. Both of the NOP contracts satisfy Brock Aller's need to not wake up in a pool of his own sweat thinking about the second apron because they both have 2 years on them.

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:We see eye to eye on this. Hurts losing MitchBeast but that’s a viable move to solidly the best version of Wingstop. With Deuce, Mitch and arguably Hart being the only value pieces we have that aren’t component parts of a starting 5, and Hart being arguably untouchable, you only have lateral moves with Mitch and Deuce to make positional adjustments.

If you could move Mitch for Herb, it fills too many boxes, despite Mitch’s inherent value and seniority on this team. Mitch’s footwork on the Jaylen Brown corner stunned me though. To see the big man move like that made me genuinely happy - for him. He’s had a tough run of it.

In a similar vein, Deuce and assets for Kessler might also make too much sense. Doubt Ainge does anything to help us though.

Best part is, if these changes don’t occur, we still look pretty good. Having this 7 at the start of the season with a few Vet Min or a Taxpayer MLE, with McCullar, Huk, Dadiet and Kolek filling in the blanks… feels pretty good.

You know what, I never thought of the Deuce for Kessler swap in conjunction with Mitch-Herb type move.

I hate both moves. But I love the idea and would have to punch myself in the nuts and then pull the trigger on the swaps. Deuce's role on the team is going to be covered or is the easiest to draft or replace enough of the output in scoring; McCullar would be candidate, better all around defense with 3point drop off but better midrange to rim scoring.

How about this thought exercise with NOP: Mitch Deuce for Herb Jones and Karlo Matković. Karlo is a 6-10" bouncey PF/center who has 3point potential. NOP of course love Mitch because he would be a hometown dude and BeastMitch next to Zion to offset each other's output. Deuce would be a long term rotation piece off the bench. Mitch, Zion, Trey Murphy, CJ McCollum, Dejonte with Jose Alvarado, Deuce, Hawkins and Missi off bench. NOP sells themselves on adding C muscle next to Zion to cover his defensive liabilities and then NOP sell themselves on adding 2 playoff caliber vets to stabilize their young core. It's a fairly young team that has balanced defense and shooting around Zion.

Knicks get a perfect Thibs player in Herb Jones. IMO Herb is the type of player who gets easily maximized by Thibs pushing his buttons in the same way as Josh Hart or Luol Deng or Jimmy Butler. Herb is your PoA defender and Mikal has more breathing room to concentrate on midrange killer. Herb is your second PG in the starting lineup and his ball handling in transition could be as effective as Hart's. You also get a young spacer in Karlo who is in the mold of KAT off the bench. Both of the NOP contracts satisfy Brock Aller's need to not wake up in a pool of his own sweat thinking about the second apron because they both have 2 years on them.

I also hate both moves. And doubt either trade would be accepted by the non-Knick counterpart.

I’m not familiar with Karlo Matković. I’ll check him out.

If the Knicks picked up Gary Trent on a taxpayer MLE, you buy McCullar a year to develop with the team.

DLeethal wrote:The starting lineup likely doesn’t reach its potential with Josh in it IMO, as long as teams can get away not guarding him.

fishmike wrote:

DLeethal wrote:The starting lineup likely doesn’t reach its potential with Josh in it IMO, as long as teams can get away not guarding him.

how's that going so far?

Knicks have been winning games in unconventional ways and displaying insane amounts of grit and clutch play. But the offense has been a mess for the vast majority of the playoffs. So if a team is trying to muck up the offense by not guarding Hart, it's working, and Knicks have been able to overcome it in other ways to their credit.

DLeethal wrote:

fishmike wrote:

DLeethal wrote:The starting lineup likely doesn’t reach its potential with Josh in it IMO, as long as teams can get away not guarding him.

how's that going so far?

Knicks have been winning games in unconventional ways and displaying insane amounts of grit and clutch play. But the offense has been a mess for the vast majority of the playoffs. So if a team is trying to muck up the offense by not guarding Hart, it's working, and Knicks have been able to overcome it in other ways to their credit.

I just dont see this scheming for Hart as "working."

Maybe a couple possessions? We continually adjust and win games. His overall numbers are good and it has not been impactful late in games.

If anything it prolly get Josh fired up

fishmike wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

fishmike wrote:

DLeethal wrote:The starting lineup likely doesn’t reach its potential with Josh in it IMO, as long as teams can get away not guarding him.

how's that going so far?

Knicks have been winning games in unconventional ways and displaying insane amounts of grit and clutch play. But the offense has been a mess for the vast majority of the playoffs. So if a team is trying to muck up the offense by not guarding Hart, it's working, and Knicks have been able to overcome it in other ways to their credit.

idk man... you say the car isnt working. Im puzzled because it's getting you to work every day and your never late.

I just dont see this scheming for Hart as "working."

Maybe a couple possessions? We continually adjust and win games. His overall numbers are good and it has not been impactful late in games.

If anything it prolly get Josh fired up

You are oversimplifying it with the car analogy. You can still drive to work with a check engine light on. When teams put a small on Towns and a big on Hart it is done to hinder the Knicks offense. There are many other facets to every game and ancillary responses to that strategy. But in terms of hindering the Knicks offense, it works. Knicks are a great team and can win games other ways which they've done. But it hasn't been because of the starting lineup, which has been objectively and statistically a negative throughout the playoffs. But if you want to make the case that all of the ancillary benefits have outweighed the negatives because we are currently in the ECF that is a reasonable argument because at the end of the day, we are indeed in the ECF. But Knicks starters have been a net negative, they've fallen into huge deficits in many of their wins, they are been an abysmal 1st and 3rd quarter team (starters), and much of this can fall directly on teams strategy of not guarding Josh and letting their big roam, while guarding KAT with a small. It should not be whitewashed away because we are winning games anyway. Knicks shouldn't have to come back from down 15-20 points in the second half to win the majority of their games.