Knicks · This isn't about "Obi Toppin vs. Julius Randle". (page 1)
Which is something that both knee jerk drama reaction fans and local New York media beat writers are refusing to write about. Because unfortunately in sports, negativity fuels the fire.
Obi Toppin has a great opportunity.
And no.
It's not to "replace Julius Randle long term" either.
It's an opportunity for Obi Toppin himself to make a name for himself by entering coach Thibs rotation (permanently) and also an opportunity for Julius Randle himself to get back into last years All-Star zone
(a perfect situation for the both of them as teammates).
This isn't "Obi Toppin vs. Julius Randle"
This is an opportunity for Obi Toppin. To earn more playing time (moving forward) amongst his younger teammates (alongside the likes of R.J./Quick/Mitch).
An opportunity to begin receiving more playing time @ all 3 positions of PF/Center and with an improved 3PT showing playing time @ potentially SF on the wings as well. Not just, "PF".
And I personally love the way coach Thibs is developing Obi Toppin (as his 1st ever New York Knicks draft pick)
He's molding him.
Developing him.
Keeping him hungry.
Motivated.
Focused.
Coaching him up.
(Similar to how an NFL head coach would develop his 1st ever top 10 Rookie Quarterback).
And it's working.
Because Obi Toppin leads the Knicks in Player Efficiency Rating.
Thibs playing chess.
Others talking checkers.
Some of our coach Thibs critics frame Julius and Obi as against one another by telling you how he's favoring Julius Randle and hurting Obi Toppin etc but in all actual reality; he's actually protecting Obi Toppin (long term). Protecting him as his 1st ever NY draft pick.
Instead of feeding an extremely young and still raw Obi to the Wolves, coach Thibs has been developing him behind a PF in Julius Randle who's still coming off of an All-Star showing (not even 36 games into only Obi's 2nd year) and for some strange/weird reasons you'll have fans complaining about it?
It's not "Obi Toppin vs. Julius Randle".
It's Obi Toppin vs. everyone else. And our entire roster is now on notice. Because Obi Toppin has arrived. And Thibs has been taking note since day one. And it's getting exciting.
And with strong showings of Obi Toppin performances throughout his next 3 games?
It means that he'll begin to steal more and more minutes away from not only "Julius Randle" but also other teammates such as Mitchell Robinson, Nerlens Noel, Taj Gibson and potentially both of Burks and R.J. too (@ SF).
There are plenty of different lineups where both Julius Randle and Obi Toppin can feast alongside of one another and develop chemistry together moving forward
1.)
C: Mitchell Robinson.
PF: Julius Randle.
SF: Obi Toppin (improved 3 ball).
SG: R.J. Barrett.
PG: Immanuel Quickley.
2.)
C: Mitchell Robinson.
PF: Obi Toppin.
SF: Julius Randle (with improved 3 ball).
SG: Quentin Grimes.
PG: Deuce McBride.
3.)
C: Obi Toppin.
PF: Julius Randle.
SF: R.J. Barrett.
SG: Immanuel Quickley.
PG: Deuce McBride.
4.)
C: Obi Toppin.
PF: Julius Randle.
SF: Quentin Grimes.
SG: Immanuel Quickley.
PG: Deuce McBride.
5.)
C: Obi Toppin.
PF: Julius Randle.
SF: R.J. Barrett.
SG: Immanuel Quickley.
PG: Kemba Walker.
6.)
(Last years impact players + Obi Toppin alongside of them).
C: Mitchell Robinson.
PF: Julius Randle
SF: Obi Toppin.
SG: R.J. Barrett.
PG: Derrick Rose.
7.)
When going small ball.
C: Julius Randle.
PF: Obi Toppin.
SF: R.J. Barrett.
SG: Immanuel Quickley.
PG: Kemba Walker.
8.)
Obi Toppin with the veterans.
C: Obi Toppin.
PF: Julius Randle.
SF: Alec Burks.
SG: Derrick Rose.
PG: Kemba Walker.
Etc.
This is all about Obi Toppin entering coach Thibs rotation and for potentially long term (@ 21-25-30+ minutes per game) and @ all 3 SF/PF/C positions too (because this kid is more than talented and freakishly athletic enough to play positional spots 1-3 on the basketball court. And he's only just a jumper away).
This is also a midseason opportunity for Julius Randle to become rejuvenated pull a Kemba Walker and get back into 2020's All-Star form (and tonight will become only Randle's 2nd game missed since last year) in order for an opportunity for Julius Randle himself to redeem himself and earn redemption for last years 1st round playoff appearance.
This current situation isn't about Julius Randle vs. Obi Toppin and/or Obi Toppin vs. JuliusRandle; this is an opportunity for the both of them to play alongside of one another and to feast as teammates together @ 23 & 27 years of age (once Julius Randle returns from Covid protocol)
Why some of our fan base is making this out to be "start Obi Toppin @ PF and trade/throw away Julius Randle" is beyond me?
Every time you play them together you hand the other coach a bunch of easy spots to exploit.
I love Obi and was thrilled with that pick from day 1. I dont love Randle but he's really good and fell into our laps. He carried this team last year and I do believe (ok hope) that he's salvageable and a good 2nd half is in the books.
That being said Obi is going to be stuck around 15 minutes until so long as he's playing behind Randle, and neither of them are anything but PFs. Until one of them shows different it is what it is
NYKMentality wrote:Julius Randle and Obi Toppin can become a dynamic duo as teammates. And for years to come too.Which is something that both knee jerk drama reaction fans and local New York media beat writers are refusing to write about. Because unfortunately in sports, negativity fuels the fire.
Obi Toppin has a great opportunity.
And no.
It's not to "replace Julius Randle long term" either.
It's an opportunity for Obi Toppin himself to make a name for himself by entering coach Thibs rotation (permanently) and also an opportunity for Julius Randle himself to get back into last years All-Star zone
(a perfect situation for the both of them as teammates).
This isn't "Obi Toppin vs. Julius Randle"
This is an opportunity for Obi Toppin. To earn more playing time (moving forward) amongst his younger teammates (alongside the likes of R.J./Quick/Mitch).
An opportunity to begin receiving more playing time @ all 3 positions of PF/Center and with an improved 3PT showing playing time @ potentially SF on the wings as well. Not just, "PF".
And I personally love the way coach Thibs is developing Obi Toppin (as his 1st ever New York Knicks draft pick)
He's molding him.
Developing him.
Keeping him hungry.
Motivated.
Focused.
Coaching him up.(Similar to how an NFL head coach would develop his 1st ever top 10 Rookie Quarterback).
And it's working.
Because Obi Toppin leads the Knicks in Player Efficiency Rating.
Thibs playing chess.
Others talking checkers.Some of our coach Thibs critics will create threads and frame Julius and Obi as against one another by telling you how he's favoring Julius Randle and hurting Obi Toppin etc but in all actual reality; he's actually protecting Obi Toppin (long term). Protecting him as his 1st ever NY draft pick.
Instead of feeding an extremely young and still raw Obi to the Wolves, coach Thibs has been developing him behind a PF in Julius Randle who's still coming off of an All-Star showing (not even 36 games into only Obi's 2nd year) and for some strange/weird reasons you'll have fans complaining about it?
Coach Thibs will pull Obi Toppin quick in order to not expose his #1 prospect during certain situations and he's also played Obi Toppin 15-20+ minutes in order to get his #1 prospect both playing time and experience. Detroit is only 1 example of many.
It's not "Obi Toppin vs. Julius Randle".
It's Obi Toppin vs. everyone else. And our entire roster is now on notice. Because Obi Toppin has arrived. And Thibs has been taking note since day one. And it's getting exciting.
And with strong showings of Obi Toppin performances throughout his next 3 games?
It means that he'll begin to steal more and more minutes away from not only "Julius Randle" but also other teammates such as Mitchell Robinson, Nerlens Noel, Taj Gibson and potentially both of Burks and R.J. too (@ SF).
There are plenty of different lineups where both Julius Randle and Obi Toppin can feast alongside of one another and develop chemistry together moving forward
1.)
C: Mitchell Robinson.
PF: Julius Randle.
SF: Obi Toppin (improved 3 ball).
SG: R.J. Barrett.
PG: Immanuel Quickley.And/or:
2.)
C: Mitchell Robinson.
PF: Obi Toppin.
SF: Julius Randle (with improved 3 ball).
SG: Quentin Grimes.
PG: Deuce McBride.And/or:
3.)
C: Obi Toppin.
PF: Julius Randle.
SF: R.J. Barrett.
SG: Immanuel Quickley.
PG: Deuce McBride.And/or:
4.)
C: Obi Toppin.
PF: Julius Randle.
SF: Quentin Grimes.
SG: Immanuel Quickley.
PG: Deuce McBride.And/or:
5.)
C: Obi Toppin.
PF: Julius Randle.
SF: R.J. Barrett.
SG: Immanuel Quickley.
PG: Kemba Walker.And/or:
6.)
(Last years impact players + Obi Toppin alongside of them).
C: Mitchell Robinson.
PF: Julius Randle
SF: Obi Toppin.
SG: R.J. Barrett.
PG: Derrick Rose.And/or:
7.)
When going small ball.
C: Julius Randle.
PF: Obi Toppin.
SF: R.J. Barrett.
SG: Immanuel Quickley.
PG: Kemba Walker.And/or:
8.)
Obi Toppin with the veteran leaders on the same court together.
C: Obi Toppin.
PF: Julius Randle.
SF: Alec Burks.
SG: Derrick Rose.
PG: Kemba Walker.Maybe Obi @ the 5 as a spark plug gives those veterans a shot of electricity to their style of play.
Etc. Etc.
This is not about Julius Randle vs. Obi Toppin; and imo only fans with a hidden agenda vs. Julius Randle make it out to seem and appear as such
This is all about Obi Toppin entering coach Thibs rotation and for potentially long term (@ 21-25-30+ minutes per game) and @ all 3 SF/PF/C positions too (because this kid is more than talented and freakishly athletic enough to play positional spots 1-3 on the basketball court. And he's only just a jumper away).
This is also a midseason opportunity for Julius Randle to become rejuvenated pull a Kemba Walker and get back into 2020's All-Star form (and tonight will become only Randle's 2nd game missed since last year) in order for an opportunity for Julius Randle himself to redeem himself and earn redemption for last years 1st round playoff appearance.
This current situation isn't about Julius Randle vs. Obi Toppin and/or Obi Toppin vs. JuliusRandle; this is an opportunity for the both of them to play alongside of one another and to feast as teammates together @ 23 & 27 years of age (once Julius Randle returns from Covid protocol)
Why some of our fan base is making this out to be "start Obi Toppin @ PF and trade/throw away Julius Randle" is beyond me?
I undecided to get an Randle or Obi lunchbox to take to school?
SupremeCommander wrote:I think this is ultimately Obi vs Mitch... if Obi is good enough no sense in committing to Mitch. I like it when they go small
I completely disagree in regards to Mitchell Robinson (@ full strength).
No sense in committing to Mitch?
Round 1 of the playoffs vs. Atlanta (4 loses in a row and lost 4-1) without Mitchell Robinson at Center while Clint Capela absolutely feasted and destroyed us...
Completely says otherwise.
Because we swept Atlanta 3-0 during the regular season but with no Mitchell Robinson? Come the playoffs? I'm sorry. But we were not the same team.
And so does Christmas Day. Where Mitchell Robinson absolutely manhandled Clint Capela and dominated down him low.
And even if Mitchell Robinson never develops into a top 10 starting Center (which I think he will) he'll then become an absolute big man beast off the bench and an X-Factor for our backup unit. As Marcus Camby once was for us as a role playing and electric big man down low.
As long as healthy and at full strength? Mitchell Robinson will always have a home, a place and a spot in NY; especially for a Defensive minded coach Thibs.
Philc1 wrote:Obi was trash tonight
And so were the Knicks.
Only 80 points without Julius Randle taking the pressure off of his younger teammates.
Those 80 points? During Julius Randle's 1st DNP of the season? A Season low. Only 80 points.
Julius Randle made the All-Star vs. Starters.
Obi Toppin plays off the bench vs. backups.
Big difference when talking box scores, per 36s and/or Player Efficiency Ratings etc and 😅🤣
Philc1 wrote:Obi was trash tonight
Agreed. Really disappointing. Glad to see barrett step up but he needed help.
Knixkik wrote:Philc1 wrote:Obi was trash tonightAgreed. Really disappointing. Glad to see barrett step up but he needed help.
The alarming thing is RJ had maybe his best game of the year without Randle. Those two take up the same parts of the floor
Regardless of how Obi turns out(tbd), it is laughable that some fans believe an experienced coach in the NBA would bench a perennial double double who is leading in all offensive categories and has the commitment financially of the franchise. No less over a second year player, who cannot shoot and is basically an energy guy off the bench?
One might make a better case for Taj Gibson to replace Randle.
It's also laughable how some do not know how hard it is to produce on a consistent basis having the opposing teams defensive scheme geared to stopping you. (Would bet Obi has little mention on the pre game defensive plan. )
In the New Year I am rooting for:
Obi to continue to develop, improve his 3pt shot and post moves so that he can prove me wrong.
Rooting for Randle to keep moves to one or two dribbles(dribble less) and improve his 3pt shooting(take less). Rooting for Kemba and EF to play more consistently and gel/play together with first unit..
Rooting for Burks to play like last year.
Rooting for RJ to play like last year.
Rooting for Q to play like last year.
Rooting for Mitch to stay healthy.
Rooting for Rose and Noel to get healthy and play like last year.
Rooting for Knicks to make a move for that missing piece.
Rooting for the KNICKS (All the Knicks)
Happy New Year Fellas!
Philc1 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Philc1 wrote:Obi was trash tonightAgreed. Really disappointing. Glad to see barrett step up but he needed help.
The alarming thing is RJ had maybe his best game of the year without Randle. Those two take up the same parts of the floor
Barrett was great last year with Randle. I think that’s just coincidence.
Knixkik wrote:Honestly the Knicks should look to move Obi to a team that can use his skill set with a young running team. He’s capped here as a change of pace backup and we probably don’t have the personnel to develop him further. You can probably move him to Sacramento in a deal for Barnes and he would look good with Fox and Haliburton, or a deal to Detroit for Grant, and he would fit with that young team. Knicks can upgrade the starting lineup without effecting the bench, which is going to look fine as long as Quickley, Burks and Rose are there to do their thing. If Toppin remains as a long term 15-18 mpg backup, that’s fine too. He’s an energy guy that can get the team and crowd fired up with a big dunk. I’m just worried there’s no path to him becoming more, at least here.
I literally don't know how you can state that with certainty. Do you think that Rose, Walker are set in stone? You don't think Obi could develop in that bench rotation? Cause he already has.
You think the Knicks will stand still and not understand that the PG position needs upgrading?
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Honestly the Knicks should look to move Obi to a team that can use his skill set with a young running team. He’s capped here as a change of pace backup and we probably don’t have the personnel to develop him further. You can probably move him to Sacramento in a deal for Barnes and he would look good with Fox and Haliburton, or a deal to Detroit for Grant, and he would fit with that young team. Knicks can upgrade the starting lineup without effecting the bench, which is going to look fine as long as Quickley, Burks and Rose are there to do their thing. If Toppin remains as a long term 15-18 mpg backup, that’s fine too. He’s an energy guy that can get the team and crowd fired up with a big dunk. I’m just worried there’s no path to him becoming more, at least here.I literally don't know how you can state that with certainty. Do you think that Rose, Walker are set in stone? You don't think Obi could develop in that bench rotation? Cause he already has.
You think the Knicks will stand still and not understand that the PG position needs upgrading?
Not unless they read the UK!
Knixkik wrote:Philc1 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Philc1 wrote:Obi was trash tonightAgreed. Really disappointing. Glad to see barrett step up but he needed help.
The alarming thing is RJ had maybe his best game of the year without Randle. Those two take up the same parts of the floor
Barrett was great last year with Randle. I think that’s just coincidence.
RJ was good last year. Let’s take it easy
fishmike wrote:this is all cute but they are a bad fit on the floor together. Neither are rim protectors or good help defenders. Neither are quick enough to be elite perimeter defenders. Both have suspect 3 point shots. Both are best suited attacking the basket. Jules is more half court, Obi more open floor.Every time you play them together you hand the other coach a bunch of easy spots to exploit.
I love Obi and was thrilled with that pick from day 1. I dont love Randle but he's really good and fell into our laps. He carried this team last year and I do believe (ok hope) that he's salvageable and a good 2nd half is in the books.
That being said Obi is going to be stuck around 15 minutes until so long as he's playing behind Randle, and neither of them are anything but PFs. Until one of them shows different it is what it is
Yep, they make no sense together. The front office drafted Obi because they were planning on dumping Randle. Randle played his ass off and the Knicks changed their plans. If they knew Randle was going to play like he did last year there is no way they would of drafted Obi. At least thats what Id like to believe.
Philc1 wrote:Obi was trash tonight
Was Obi trash? Or did Obi just show you who he is and you’re in denial?
Players are trash when reality doesn’t exceed your expectations.
I saw it different. I thought Obi played like Obi. Except he was a starter with a different set of expectations. Look at his history since a little kid. He always comes in below expectations and eventually he comes into himself. He’s a late bloomer. Takes him time to adjust. Obi is fine for now.
My worry is grimes and duece. Can they bounce back with better shooting performances, especially grimes. I thought grimes was more like Allan Houston. But he might be more john Starks. And I don’t give out that label to anybody since starks is my favorite player growing up. But grimes hot and cold streaks and defensive energy reminds me of starks.
But Obi didn’t play like trash, he played mistake free basketball. He missed the same 3s as a starter, that he’s been missing all season off the bench.
blkexec wrote:Philc1 wrote:Obi was trash tonightWas Obi trash? Or did Obi just show you who he is and you’re in denial?
Players are trash when reality doesn’t exceed your expectations.
I saw it different. I thought Obi played like Obi. Except he was a starter with a different set of expectations. Look at his history since a little kid. He always comes in below expectations and eventually he comes into himself. He’s a late bloomer. Takes him time to adjust. Obi is fine for now.
My worry is grimes and duece. Can they bounce back with better shooting performances, especially grimes. I thought grimes was more like Allan Houston. But he might be more john Starks. And I don’t give out that label to anybody since starks is my favorite player growing up. But grimes hot and cold streaks and defensive energy reminds me of starks.
But Obi didn’t play like trash, he played mistake free basketball. He missed the same 3s as a starter, that he’s been missing all season off the bench.
I don't even know how folks can flat label Obi as not playing well. Not for nothing but he was the leader for the Knicks in +/-. He shot really poorly from the FT line, missed 1 3pt attempt.
He is a big who needs a PG to get him the ball in his spots. The Knicks didn't have that type of player for him to work with.
martin wrote:blkexec wrote:Philc1 wrote:Obi was trash tonightWas Obi trash? Or did Obi just show you who he is and you’re in denial?
Players are trash when reality doesn’t exceed your expectations.
I saw it different. I thought Obi played like Obi. Except he was a starter with a different set of expectations. Look at his history since a little kid. He always comes in below expectations and eventually he comes into himself. He’s a late bloomer. Takes him time to adjust. Obi is fine for now.
My worry is grimes and duece. Can they bounce back with better shooting performances, especially grimes. I thought grimes was more like Allan Houston. But he might be more john Starks. And I don’t give out that label to anybody since starks is my favorite player growing up. But grimes hot and cold streaks and defensive energy reminds me of starks.
But Obi didn’t play like trash, he played mistake free basketball. He missed the same 3s as a starter, that he’s been missing all season off the bench.
I don't even know how folks can flat label Obi as not playing well. Not for nothing but he was the leader for the Knicks in +/-. He shot really poorly from the FT line, missed 1 3pt attempt.
He is a big who needs a PG to get him the ball in his spots. The Knicks didn't have that type of player for him to work with.
The problem for Obi right now is that those "SPOTS" are limited. He does not have a low block or elbow game. He does not have a mid-range catch-and-shoot game. He cannot shoot the three with any consistency. He struggles to create off the dribble. His game seems to be run the floor and get an alley-oop dunk. Perhaps he would do well in the PnR but that would take commitment by the Knicks to run plays for him at a large rate. Is he due that right now? Can he do more than roll? And how long would it take before teams make adjustments to that? STAT became really good a PnR only after developing a solid mid-range jumper to combat defenses from dropping on the pick.
Think Obi needs more than just a PG but rather an offensive system that likes to run transition and pushes the tempo. Problem is that that there might not be any NBA teams that run that. Unless Paul Westhead gets back into coaching. Feel Obi just needs to keep improving so that he can have a more diverse attack. Think with patience he will add to those "Spots"
But will definitely take a high-level PG, please!