Knicks · Controversial take? If I could only keep one SG, I'd go Grimes over RJ (page 1)

Love RJ's personality in NY but skill for skill, I like Grimes a whole lot better right now.

Grimes got a long way to go but I just like what he brings. Dude is polished in so many areas and so well rounded as a player. He may not be the dynamic, high usage player as RJ but what he brings on both ends of the court is special IMHO

Are we saying this because one is playing and one is not? Based on their careers, RJ has been playing longer and seems to do more, Grimes can't run an offense and Rj tho limited an offense can go thru him. Grimes seems to be the better shooter, but Rj has made strides. Is all this love because we are seeing him more? or do u think he has the better upside?

martin wrote:Love RJ's personality in NY but skill for skill, I like Grimes a whole lot better right now.

Grimes got a long way to go but I just like what he brings. Dude is polished in so many areas and so well rounded as a player. He may not be the dynamic, high usage player as RJ but what he brings on both ends of the court is special IMHO

The comparison is not RJ who by the way is a SF / SG. I believe they can play together.

The real comparison is grimes and Fournier. They can’t start together because neither of them are good at defending SF. RJ can. Cam can guard 2-4 just an fyi.

Thank God we don’t have to pick between RJ and Grimes.

But we have to decide who starts between Grimes and Fournier

Grime has All Star potential. He definitely looks like a young Klay Thompson. I am amazed at the consistency of his shooting form. He rarely takes an off balanced shot. His defense is top notch. He needs to improve his handles and develop countermoves, but the sky is the limit with him. I agree with the premise that he might have more potential than RJ but I want to keep RJ too. We need that slasher who can create his own shot. RJ has potential to get to an Allstar level too.

RJ everyday over Grimes. Grimes doesn’t play with the expectation of being an All Star or franchise player. He is asked to be a role player. Put the expectations on him and he will fold like a cheap tent. Grimes is a role player playing his role.

dacash wrote:Are we saying this because one is playing and one is not? Based on their careers, RJ has been playing longer and seems to do more, Grimes can't run an offense and Rj tho limited an offense can go thru him. Grimes seems to be the better shooter, but Rj has made strides. Is all this love because we are seeing him more? or do u think he has the better upside?

It's a flat comparison of what both players can and cannot do, and at some point there will be a huge price point difference between the 2 and that will rate in.

Also, do you think I just forgot what RJ is because he has been hurt for a few games? Kind of a silly question to me.

RJ has so many deficiencies in his game, I don't know if he can correct all of them and be consistently good or efficient. He will always be a strong defender but I don't know if he will ever be a good enough defender, too slow. Still figuring out if he can be consistent shooting (FT's, layups, 3pointers). Still dribble barrels into double teams. Still makes wild ass passes. Still doesn't know what to do with his right hand. Hack-a-RJ will eventually become a viable strategy if he can't correct.

There is just no doubt in my mind that Grimes is the better defender and has much better defensive instincts. And I think he will flourish within an offense because of his ability to put ball on floor. Good enough passer so far.

After next year, when RJ is making near $11M, Knicks will need to extend him and it'll be in the $25+M range, and when the salary equation comes in the discussion will take another level.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:Love RJ's personality in NY but skill for skill, I like Grimes a whole lot better right now.

Grimes got a long way to go but I just like what he brings. Dude is polished in so many areas and so well rounded as a player. He may not be the dynamic, high usage player as RJ but what he brings on both ends of the court is special IMHO

The comparison is not RJ who by the way is a SF / SG. I believe they can play together.

The real comparison is grimes and Fournier. They can’t start together because neither of them are good at defending SF. RJ can. Cam can guard 2-4 just an fyi.

Thank God we don’t have to pick between RJ and Grimes.

But we have to decide who starts between Grimes and Fournier

No duh? That's like a no-brainer and for me doesn't need to much thought process

I'd hold off a bit on that one. I remember thinking the same thing about Quick last season. Grimes is definitely a keeper tho.

Grimes is solid but he’s either 3s or nothing right now.
If grimes develops some type of mid range game, then I might consider it.

RJ has a much higher upside as a defender though. He is bigger and has a longer wing span.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:Love RJ's personality in NY but skill for skill, I like Grimes a whole lot better right now.

Grimes got a long way to go but I just like what he brings. Dude is polished in so many areas and so well rounded as a player. He may not be the dynamic, high usage player as RJ but what he brings on both ends of the court is special IMHO

The comparison is not RJ who by the way is a SF / SG. I believe they can play together.

The real comparison is grimes and Fournier. They can’t start together because neither of them are good at defending SF. RJ can. Cam can guard 2-4 just an fyi.

Thank God we don’t have to pick between RJ and Grimes.

But we have to decide who starts between Grimes and Fournier

No duh? That's like a no-brainer and for me doesn't need to much thought process

Grimes vs Fournier it depends on who plays the better defense. I have to go with Grimes in that regards. Having Fournier and Kemba absolutely kills the Knicks perimeter defense.

HoustonSprewell84 wrote:Grimes is solid but he’s either 3s or nothing right now.
If grimes develops some type of mid range game, then I might consider it.

RJ has a much higher upside as a defender though. He is bigger and has a longer wing span.

So I am trying to project out a bit, not just compare them at the moment.

I have a totally different take on defense than you do. Grimes is soooooo much better and for me it's not even close.

As already written, to me the two of them are actually a good fit. In my opinion, RJ is still more SF than SG. An all-round player who is good at everything (too bad he's not elite in some of those things). He can also play a secondary creator without any problems. Grimes is a classic 3&D player who is therefore a great pair for RJ on the wing precisely because he is more like Bullock than Fournier is.

The problem is again Fournier which is simply not compatible with RJ because they are too similar. He has a bit more experience at the moment, but I guess it’s clear that between the two, everyone would choose RJ.

Now, of course, the pair of RJ - Grimes will not take you to the top of the league, but they are players who are the perfect upgrade to the first and second option. The problem is that I just don't believe Randle is one of those two first options...and judging by the lack of interest from other teams, other GMs don't either.

I don't get the notion that you can run an offense thru RJ. IMHO RJ is not a good or natural passer. Usually ends up with as many assists as TO's.

Randle too.

Knicks are kinda left with both as high usage players and they are certainly willing'ish passers, but the Knicks' offense actually stalls when both have the ball in their hands and are asked to make decisions.

IMHO neither are good at running an offense or having an offense run through them is not good.

martin wrote:I don't get the notion that you can run an offense thru RJ. IMHO RJ is not a good or natural passer. Usually ends up with as many assists as TO's.

Randle too.

Knicks are kinda left with both as high usage players and they are certainly willing'ish passers, but the Knicks' offense actually stalls when both have the ball in their hands and are asked to make decisions.

IMHO neither are good at running an offense or having an offense run through them is not good.

As I wrote, RJ is unfortunately not elite in any segment and of course the offense cannot go through him, but in my opinion he is quite a decent secondary creator. He is also a good defender and a solid shooter. If we finally had a solid PG to create an offense (wishfull thinking), RJ would be more than good.

Randle seems to work only when he is absolutely the first option and everything goes through him. But it is clear that the team with him as the absolute first option will not go far. Especially not in the way that he has the ball in his hands and creates offense.

I said that he absolutely deserved this contract, although even then I said that he was not the first option. What is a problem is that there is a visible difference in attitude. He worked a lot last season and wanted to prove something. This season he has the attitude “everyone needs to know I’m a star”. Instead of proving things on the ground, he is arguing over the media. I do not like that.

But I would say we are “doomed” to him because obviously other teams won’t give us anything concrete for him. It turns out that the only hope is to try to bring the first option to which Randle would agree to "hand over the keys to the team" and do what is necessary for the team. I'm not sure if that will happen ...

martin wrote:Love RJ's personality in NY but skill for skill, I like Grimes a whole lot better right now.

Grimes got a long way to go but I just like what he brings. Dude is polished in so many areas and so well rounded as a player. He may not be the dynamic, high usage player as RJ but what he brings on both ends of the court is special IMHO

Grimes is great but we get this way with a lot of the new players. Grimes isn’t taken seriously yet as a player in the league. Barrett continues to make strides and has more upside. I get that he’s more ball dominant and Grimes fits better in all lineups. Hopefully it doesn’t matter because I view them both as the long term starters here on the wings and think the way to improve this team is at the other positions.

We keep saying all our young kids have all star potential and they never do. The only exception was KP for one year. Right now I don't think any of them do. RJ has the highest potential but I have his max at just below all star. People under estimate just how hard it is to get into the all star game. Our other young kids are just role players. They can be good players but most likely outcome for their careers are role players. Which is why everyone says we lack talent. All star talent looks like LaMelo. We have no young players anywhere close to LaMelo.

martin wrote:I don't get the notion that you can run an offense thru RJ. IMHO RJ is not a good or natural passer. Usually ends up with as many assists as TO's.

Randle too.

Knicks are kinda left with both as high usage players and they are certainly willing'ish passers, but the Knicks' offense actually stalls when both have the ball in their hands and are asked to make decisions.

IMHO neither are good at running an offense or having an offense run through them is not good.

I’m not comparing RJ to Luka, or Demar Derozan. But if you watch Mavs or Bulls games, Luka and Derozan get most of their assists kicking out to 3 point shooters. Derozan gets most of his assists from Vucacic on pick and fades. The entire Mavs surrounding roster are 3 point shooters for Luka to kick out to.

Our lineup is not made for either Randle or RJ to maximize their potential imo. We don’t have many 3 point shooters besides RJ himself and EF. Our bigs, besides Randle whose 3p% has regressed from last year can not hit a open three. It’s my biggest issue with our roster, even more than PG.

I see RJ in the Sprewell role as he was a 2 guard but had enough capability to guard 3s so Houston (Grimes) could play the 2. Grimes has better footwork and defensive instincts - but I believe RJ is solid enough defensively. Our entire team defense has really been inconsistent this year. If you switched them and had Grimes guard the SF's - we could better compare their individual capacity. I do think Grimes projects well but I will look to see if the rookie level effort remains when his offense expands and his role/load increases. Let's hope so as he is one of the few shining nuggets on this turd of a season so far...

Overall I think RJ and Grimes offers the best balance and defensive options when looking at this roster. Now if Cam becomes a force we may have a really solid swingman situation.

You could make the case that they are our two best players so why choose between them. they are different though. RJ was guarding Lebron the other night. No way Grimes can do that

Grimes though does have more quickness guarding the perimeter.

I'd rather see them play together than choose. EF get's a lot of criticism here. Personally i don't think he's a bad player so much as he's an awkward fit

on paper we had so much more promise in terms of versatility, moving the ball, multiple ways to score; in reality the chemistry has been horrible.

martin wrote:

dacash wrote:Are we saying this because one is playing and one is not? Based on their careers, RJ has been playing longer and seems to do more, Grimes can't run an offense and Rj tho limited an offense can go thru him. Grimes seems to be the better shooter, but Rj has made strides. Is all this love because we are seeing him more? or do u think he has the better upside?

It's a flat comparison of what both players can and cannot do, and at some point there will be a huge price point difference between the 2 and that will rate in.

Also, do you think I just forgot what RJ is because he has been hurt for a few games? Kind of a silly question to me.

RJ has so many deficiencies in his game, I don't know if he can correct all of them and be consistently good or efficient. He will always be a strong defender but I don't know if he will ever be a good enough defender, too slow. Still figuring out if he can be consistent shooting (FT's, layups, 3pointers). Still dribble barrels into double teams. Still makes wild ass passes. Still doesn't know what to do with his right hand. Hack-a-RJ will eventually become a viable strategy if he can't correct.

There is just no doubt in my mind that Grimes is the better defender and has much better defensive instincts. And I think he will flourish within an offense because of his ability to put ball on floor. Good enough passer so far.

After next year, when RJ is making near $11M, Knicks will need to extend him and it'll be in the $25+M range, and when the salary equation comes in the discussion will take another level.

I think over the past couple years you have shown to be somewhat of an RJ pessimist. Question would be how much does that play into your comparison. While you seem to be completely optimistic about Grimes potential based on limited play, at the same time seem to have much more focus on RJ's flaws.

They are pretty much exactly the same age. Grimes at 6'4" is essentially a SG. RJ is 2" taller with a 2" wingspan advantage - he's essentially a wing SG/SF hybrid - so not even sure why in this hypothetical you are saying that we can only keep one SG.

Defense - both are good defenders, but I'm unsure what you are basing your opinion on doubts that RJ will ever by "Good Enough". Say what you want but RJ has been generally drawing the toughest defensive assignment by Thibs - for instance he was given the assignment to defend Morant. I'm not sure what you are using to base you "no doubt in your mind" analysis that Grimes has better defensive instincts and is a better defender. It's certainly not that definitive to me. For instance, I'm viewing RJ as a better rebounder and much stronger and better at interior rotation assignment and against taller players.

Passing - RJ averages a higher per 36 assist stat. Beyond that, not sure how you can say definitively that Grimes would be a better passer other than your anecdotal observation that RJ makes some wild passes.

Hack-a-RJ - this comment makes no sense to me. He is shooting close to 70% for his career from the line. Not sure that a hacking strategy has ever been in place for a guy above 50-60%.

Right Hand - not sure if you are expressing bias because RJ is left hand dominant. I haven't seen enough of Grimes with his left to say he is really any better with his off hand than RJ. Observationally, I have seen RJ make shots at the rim with his right.

Ball on the Floor - In watching Grimes, so far his main strength on offense is his spot up 3. He seems much more inconsistent when creating his own shot whether from 3 or mid-range. I have also observed pretty much the same from RJ over the past several seasons. However in his recent run prior to injury, I have noticed that RJ appears to have become more proficient at shooting off the dribble from mid-range. But too soon to tell if this will continue or not (pretty much for both players IMO).

Ability to get into the paint - I'm in agreement about RJ dribble barrels into doubles and not always making the best decisions at the rim. He currently is lacking in his finish ability - and I think it sticks out to many detractors. Many love Obi for his finish ability and overlook his other flaws. At the same time I believe some detract from RJs other skills based on his less than spectacular finish ability. Honestly, I'm not sure how this will pan out for him but based on his progression and work ethic - I'm very hopeful. Conversely, I really have not seen enough of Grimes being the go-to take it to the rim type of player in the offense to have an informed opinion how he ranks vs. RJ.

My hypothetical is to keep them both and jettison other players instead.

martin wrote:Love RJ's personality in NY but skill for skill, I like Grimes a whole lot better right now.

Grimes got a long way to go but I just like what he brings. Dude is polished in so many areas and so well rounded as a player. He may not be the dynamic, high usage player as RJ but what he brings on both ends of the court is special IMHO

Feel RJ toughness, drive to succeed and aggressiveness to the basket is something Grimes still needs to prove he has. Grimes right now is a high volume shooter and shown he can be really good on the defensive side. But I do not think he has showed to be a a high level starter just yet. Nor better all around player than RJ. Grimes rarely looks to set up others, still needs to improve his mid range and needs to become more aggressive to the basket. Someone that can shoot FT's as well as he does should try to get to the line much more. Think he will get better at all those with more time. When he does, he will be a really good starting player. To be fair, RJ sometimes gets enamored with outside shooting as well and gets into spans where he lacks aggressiveness to the basket. Can say that Grimes should be in late in games if RJ is not playing well. Think there has been inconsistency in Thibs this year with that. Last year it seemed he was going with the hot hands late in games much more.

Can say it is a good problem to have as it is never bad that a kid you picked up in the draft is even in the conversation of replacing one of your better players. However, right now, still feel RJ has a higher ceiling and belongs higher in place.