Knicks · Interesting take on Mitch and his shooting range (page 1)
https://www.sny.tv/articles/knicks-mitch...
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To get a sense of what Robinson’s value is to the Knicks, to opposing teams (and why he doesn’t necessarily need to shoot threes to improve as a player), we asked Joseph Gill to offer an analysis of the center.
Gill is an analytics consultant for several NBA players, agents, and trainers, including NBA trainer Packie Turner.
"Joseph Gill is the best in the business that I’ve worked with from an analytics standpoint. Helping me find weaknesses, bolster strengths," says Turner, whose clients include Jordan Poole and Grant Williams. "Might sound like a strange comparison, but I’d call him my spellcheck. I think I got the plan right, but he might highlight something I overlooked or go further in-depth on something.
"Joseph’s attention to detail truly separates him. His commitment to the job he takes on is also second to none. Whether it’s helping me target how to help some finish better and providing the data to back it up, one foot for two feet and how they deal with contact/draw fouls.
"Or leaning on jumpers and percentage there versus when on control, on balance and ready. With the clips to prove it. Joseph has shown me not just that he is a great value add, but truly that he in invaluable."
Below, Gill offers his analysis of Robinson and concludes that New York should retain the seven-footer:
For a player like Robinson, who led the NBA in field goal percentage (76 percent), finished second in offensive rebounds per game (4.1), and finished fourth in blocks per game (1.8), analytics aren't needed to answer whether or not he's valuable or determine precisely how to deploy him. At 24 years old, Mitch is an elite shot-blocker and finisher, and those types of players have value.However, many fans are quick to point out several aspects of Robinson's play that figure to lower his value, both on the court and on the contract Mitch will end up signing.
According to Synergy, Robinson only attempted 12 of his 343 shots outside of three feet, with his longest attempt on the year coming in at only seven feet. Likewise, out of his 469 tracked possessions in the half-court this season, only 17 came in post-up situations. So, while Robinson is arguably the most elite finisher at the rim in the entire NBA, that's the only space from the floor he's currently doing his scoring from, and when the Knicks' offense is stalling out, posting Robinson up isn't an option to kickstart it back into gear.
This narrow offensive deployment is very apparent in his points per game average, and many fans would be uneasy paying top dollar for a player who only averaged 8.0 points a night in the most recent season. But, it's important to remember that basketball is a per-possession game of efficiency masquerading as a game of volume.
So, exactly how much is Mitchell Robinson worth in free agency? Can the Knicks reasonably expect to do better at center in 2022-23, either by adding through the draft or free agency, or even potentially with Jericho Sims, who is currently on the roster?
This question is where analytics can help.
I would consider paying $12-to-$13 million a year for Robinson as a complete steal. The reason I feel this way is straightforward: He's hyper-efficient offensively.
By scoring 610 points this season on only 484 possessions (343 shot attempts, 60 turnovers, 81 non-and-one fouls drawn resulting in free throws), Robinson's points per possession was a sterling 1.26. For perspective, the league-average PPP in the 2021-22 regular season was almost precisely 1.00, and among the 223 players with at least Robinson's amount of possessions, Mitchell's 1.26 PPP ranked second-best. So, when Robinson terminates a play, it results in 0.26 more points scored for the Knicks than their opponents will score on an average possession.
It shouldn't be surprising then that as a consultant whose flagship service is working with players to raise their PPP, there would be no sweeping changes that I would suggest making to Robinson's offensive game. Recently, I've been in a similar position with a similar player: When one of Daniel Gafford's skills trainers asked what I would recommend for his post-draft offense development, I replied that Gafford would be best served with continued emphasis on his finishing.
Spending offseasons trying to manufacture a skill set of less than league-average-efficiency shots in other areas isn't so much developing a "counter," it's more akin to training an already dangerous player to be less dangerous. Opposing teams will gladly exploit any amount of complacency when hunting for the highest possible efficiency shot. And, unfortunately, the data shows that most mid-range and post-up possessions score at below league-average efficiency.
The thought process for Robinson is identical to the one I had for Gafford. It all boils down to one question: As evident by his second-best PPP efficiency mark, what reasonable addition can be made to Robinson's offensive game that won't lower his marginal impact on his team's offense?
In theory, yes, any addition to a player's game makes them a more valuable player. But, in practice, the laws of basketball are governed more by opportunity cost than most suspect.
Even if Mitchell were to add what's essentially a Kevin Durant mid-range shot and was able to take three [mid-range shots] a game, if all the floating outside the lane meant that he received one less at-rim attempt per game, the Knicks would actually come out behind on this shot selection trade-off: The three mid-ranges would add 0.45 marginal points compared to the average Knicks half-court offense, while the one at-rim attempt adds a whopping 0.47 points all on its own.
The opportunity costs of basketball are brutal: An elite specialist could theoretically add an elite in-between game skill set and hurt his team if he ever deployed it.
I understand that 0.47 points might not sound like much, considering the average NBA team scored almost 111 points a game last season. However, on a per-possession basis, 0.47 points is larger than the distance between an open catch-and-shoot three for Steph Curry (worth 1.38 points on average) and an open catch-and-shoot three for Obi Toppin (worth 0.96 points on average) this season.
Remember, even after accounting that Robinson is a 48 percent foul shooter, a shot attempt at the rim in the half-court for Mitchell is worth more points than an open Curry three, and Robinson logged 5.7 at-rim half-court possessions per game last season. Would you ever tell Curry to change stuff up, maybe consider leaving the three-point line to post-up some, if he was getting 5.7 open catch-and-shoot threes a game doing what he's been doing? So, why would we entertain the idea of doing so with Robinson?
Even if his positioning was clogging the rim, surely it should be on his teammates to adapt to Robinson's elite at-rim efficiency. Why instead would it be Robinson's duty to sacrifice attempts and efficiency to execute his highly valuable skill set in a way most convenient to inferior finishers?
Clearly, I believe that the lane-clogging aspects of Robinson's positioning are minimal compared to the benefits provided by the threat of lobs and dump-downs to Robinson. Shots that score 1.42 points on a per-attempt basis simply print wins for the team attempting them.
Neglecting volume for the sake of efficiency is not the way. What is the point of efficiency if you barely ever shoot? How do you plan to outscore the other team if you do not make shot attempts?
I agree that the team would hardly benefit from Mitch heaving 3-pointers at a 25-30% clip, but if he mastered a consistent short baseline jumper and a few low-post hook shot moves, he'd make us a much more varied and dangerous team on offense.
That, and he needs to learn to shoot free throws. There is no excuse for a guy making $15m a year not being able to make much more than half of them.
Im open to learn new things. End of the day I have no issue with the way knicks handled Mitch even if he ends up walking.
HE was injury prone and had yet to put together a full season. His injury prevented him from coming in shape and he needed 25% of the season to get his legs. A contract is a great motivator.
Other teams know all the above also.
BRIGGS wrote:Robert Williams is on a finals team doing very similar things to Mitch. I’d keep to that core game while trying to improve other areas. Lot of great nba players like Rodman and Wallace who did not shoot.
They have Al Horford, did you for get him? If I recall from the little I saw of the GS game even Theis dropped a three.
How many drop passes to Noel fumble? You have to think with even an average PG like Rose Robinson would get a lot more clean looks.
I love ESOM's post. F the analytics, lol.
BRIGGS wrote:Robert Williams is on a finals team doing very similar things to Mitch. I’d keep to that core game while trying to improve other areas. Lot of great nba players like Rodman and Wallace who did not shoot.
Good point. It's funny when fans focus on what guys can't do and forget about what they can do "extremely well". NY fans were crying for Mitch in the Atlanta series and are now wanting to let him walk because he can't hit a three. Smh. So much for fans wanting defense.
HofstraBBall wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Robert Williams is on a finals team doing very similar things to Mitch. I’d keep to that core game while trying to improve other areas. Lot of great nba players like Rodman and Wallace who did not shoot.Good point. It's funny when fans focus on what guys can't do and forget about what they can do "extremely well". NY fans were crying for Mitch in the Atlanta series and are now wanting to let him walk because he can't hit a three. Smh. So much for fans wanting defense.
You're being silly.
If any one was *crying* for Robinson in that series it may have been because, as bad as an offensive player he is, he is still better than Noel on that end. Noel brought nothing to the table which allowed Capella to constantly double Randle.
....and I don't think anyone is happy to see Robinson walk but more reasonable minds are not willing to accept a 18-20+ million long term contract on a player whose game is based solely on his athleticism.
HofstraBBall wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Robert Williams is on a finals team doing very similar things to Mitch. I’d keep to that core game while trying to improve other areas. Lot of great nba players like Rodman and Wallace who did not shoot.Good point. It's funny when fans focus on what guys can't do and forget about what they can do "extremely well". NY fans were crying for Mitch in the Atlanta series and are now wanting to let him walk because he can't hit a three. Smh. So much for fans wanting defense.
I don't want him to walk, unless he grabs a crazy offer. I said that Mitch would probably get an offer similar to Timelord, but I think it looks like Mitch will get a little more than that now. That Williams deal is a little undervalued.
Mitch was out.
Much fell on Taj and Capella was too much for either.
That was then…..
gradyandrew wrote:It's a two for one with RJ. RJ excels at getting to the rim but is horrible at finishing. He has the second worst rate at finishing in the league. Throw Robinson in there and you have a functional offense where half of RJ's misses can be putbacks for Robinson.How many drop passes to Noel fumble? You have to think with even an average PG like Rose Robinson would get a lot more clean looks.
I love ESOM's post. F the analytics, lol.
No, it is not F the analytics. It is F the myopic analysts who may not know how to correctly interpret the analytics.
ESOMKnicks wrote:gradyandrew wrote:It's a two for one with RJ. RJ excels at getting to the rim but is horrible at finishing. He has the second worst rate at finishing in the league. Throw Robinson in there and you have a functional offense where half of RJ's misses can be putbacks for Robinson.How many drop passes to Noel fumble? You have to think with even an average PG like Rose Robinson would get a lot more clean looks.
I love ESOM's post. F the analytics, lol.
No, it is not F the analytics. It is F the myopic analysts who may not know how to correctly interpret the analytics.
Joseph Gill is the best in the business that I’ve worked with from an analytics standpoint. Helping me find weaknesses, bolster strengths," says Turner, whose clients include Jordan Poole and Grant Williams. "Might sound like a strange comparison, but I’d call him my spellcheck. I think I got the plan right, but he might highlight something I overlooked or go further in-depth on something."Joseph’s attention to detail truly separates him. His commitment to the job he takes on is also second to none. Whether it’s helping me target how to help some finish better and providing the data to back it up, one foot for two feet and how they deal with contact/draw fouls
It's OK if I'm still LOL, right?
Swishfm3 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Robert Williams is on a finals team doing very similar things to Mitch. I’d keep to that core game while trying to improve other areas. Lot of great nba players like Rodman and Wallace who did not shoot.Good point. It's funny when fans focus on what guys can't do and forget about what they can do "extremely well". NY fans were crying for Mitch in the Atlanta series and are now wanting to let him walk because he can't hit a three. Smh. So much for fans wanting defense.
You're being silly.
If any one was *crying* for Robinson in that series it may have been because, as bad as an offensive player he is, he is still better than Noel on that end. Noel brought nothing to the table which allowed Capella to constantly double Randle.
....and I don't think anyone is happy to see Robinson walk but more reasonable minds are not willing to accept a 18-20+ million long term contract on a player whose game is based solely on his athleticism.
No, We beat Atlanta during the year with MR because he was able to clog up the middle against Trae and guarded the PnR/lobs well. (Defense)
Who would you have replace MR?
How much will they make?
18-20 million is not much anymore especially with new caps coming in.
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gradyandrew wrote:ESOMKnicks wrote:gradyandrew wrote:It's a two for one with RJ. RJ excels at getting to the rim but is horrible at finishing. He has the second worst rate at finishing in the league. Throw Robinson in there and you have a functional offense where half of RJ's misses can be putbacks for Robinson.How many drop passes to Noel fumble? You have to think with even an average PG like Rose Robinson would get a lot more clean looks.
I love ESOM's post. F the analytics, lol.
No, it is not F the analytics. It is F the myopic analysts who may not know how to correctly interpret the analytics.
Joseph Gill is the best in the business that I’ve worked with from an analytics standpoint. Helping me find weaknesses, bolster strengths," says Turner, whose clients include Jordan Poole and Grant Williams. "Might sound like a strange comparison, but I’d call him my spellcheck. I think I got the plan right, but he might highlight something I overlooked or go further in-depth on something."Joseph’s attention to detail truly separates him. His commitment to the job he takes on is also second to none. Whether it’s helping me target how to help some finish better and providing the data to back it up, one foot for two feet and how they deal with contact/draw fouls
It's OK if I'm still LOL, right?
If you never question authority and readily believe any advertising endorsements from anyone, then yes, it is okay to be LOL. It is a free country after all. I prefer employing some critical thinking, including with regards to expert opinions. Hope it is okay with you.
Advice to a team to let a player take only shots where he hits a high percentage, without developing his game and range reminds me of a scene from French playwright Moliere called The Bores, where another expert comes up with an ingenious plan to raise revenue for the crown. Here is a quote and a link should you be interested in understanding what I mean:
Ormin: Sir, I believe you are too discreet to divulge my secret plan, and I wish to communicate it to you frankly, in two words. I must see that none can hear us. (After seeing that no one is listening, he approaches Eraste's ear). This marvellous plan, of which I am the inventor, is...
Eraste: A little farther off, sir, for a certain reason.
Ormin: You know, without any need of my telling you, the great profit which the King yearly receives from his seaports. Well, the plan of which no one has yet thought, and which is an easy matter, is to make all the coasts of France into famous ports. This would amount to vast sums; and if...
Eraste: The scheme is good, and will greatly please the King. Farewell. We shall see each other again
But seriously, don't you think that the Celtics were smiling every time Draymond took an open 3 pointer in game 1? I don't think he took any in game 2, he just did what he does and the Warriors offense was better for it. I don't think that the Knicks are good enough to have to fret about Robinson's shot profile, that's way, way down the to do list. Any outside game starts at the free throw line.