Knicks · Knicks in on Mitchell trade (page 10)

KnickDanger wrote:So a lot of chit chat going on but I haven’t seen much in the way of a *practical* hypothetical exchange that takes into account salary cap issues. The Knicks have pretty much shed the salary they can to get Brunson. So what’s left is Randle whom I can’t see the Jazz taking on. So possibly Fournier? But he still has a few years left and his salary alone isn’t enough. Perhaps as mentioned they think they could flip him but you then start adding Mitch, Sims, even RJ - plus unprotected picks?

Just can’t see it.

I think Fournier is the main contract. Either reddish or Toppin in addition works salary wise. That’s sort of the baseline as far as outgoing players.

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

franco12 wrote:

SergioNYK wrote:All of this for Donovan Mitchell? He is not a franchise level player! WALK AWAY! WE ARE GOING TO REGRET THIS!

I kinda agree- but.

Are we 100% sure Mitchell can't develop like Stephen Curry?

So then I think 100% look at it, make the right deal to leave enough talent here to be lethal. I'd like to keep IQ- have him be the wild card off the bench.

We might prefer to keep Grimes because of his d & 3pter being a much more lethal weapon.

Plus who knew Tatum was going to breakout the way he did these playoffs- you never really know who's going to take that next step until they do, at which point good luck in acquiring them!

Booker was another... just a chucker then suddenly he's a premier scorer

one can argue Brunson too -- think how much he earned during these playoffs

LivingLegend wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:Hoping that Mitchell has already told Jazz he wants NY but they are in agreement to execute deal behind the scene so not as to kill his overall trade value. Basically Jazz say - ok we will work with NY if you don’t go public with this demand.

This places NY in better position and both teams reach a reasonable deal.

Flip side is we are being used as leverage and another front runner team will sneak in and steal him. Could see some big 4 team deal go down excluding Knicks as usual

I guess they forgot to tell Donovan to stop hanging out in NY with IQ and stop wearing all of the NY gear or hanging out at Mets games NO DROPPING HINTS!!

Good point - though in my defense we still haven’t seen the KD like media update saying D Mitchell has requested a trade and preferred destination is NY.

But yes Donovan dropping hints all over NY —— still worry Knicks can close deal even on an overpay (which I don’t want).

He did also have dinner with the heat players earlier in the offseason and worked out with Bam, I think

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

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That pic is going to be part of bball culture for a long time, ha

MaTT4281 wrote:We've got a lot of young guys starved for minutes. Consolidating talent makes sense. I get it, but the cost post-Gobert trade makes me uneasy. RJ is a deal breaker, cannot include him. If you manage to keep Quick out of the trade, that's a win. But the sheer number of picks being thrown out there are a killer.

Gun to my head, I balk.

Rose:

Knixkik wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:So a lot of chit chat going on but I haven’t seen much in the way of a *practical* hypothetical exchange that takes into account salary cap issues. The Knicks have pretty much shed the salary they can to get Brunson. So what’s left is Randle whom I can’t see the Jazz taking on. So possibly Fournier? But he still has a few years left and his salary alone isn’t enough. Perhaps as mentioned they think they could flip him but you then start adding Mitch, Sims, even RJ - plus unprotected picks?

Just can’t see it.

I think Fournier is the main contract. Either reddish or Toppin in addition works salary wise. That’s sort of the baseline as far as outgoing players.

Matching salary is easy, not an issue at all

martin wrote:Donovan salary is $30M, that means outgoing salary must be minimum of ~$24.3M (min outgoing salary must be salary * 1.25 + $100,000 > Donovan salary) if we are just talking about a base trade of Mitchell for players + whatever.

If the Knicks and Utah have come to some sort of agreement on a fundamental trade, they have at least agreed on the base outgoing players (salary-wise) from the Knicks. That means they either have agreed to include RJ or not. If not, Utah has either agreed on taking Fournier or Randle (base salary you need to get to the $24.3M mark). Maybe you could start with Rose but I doubt they do that from Knicks standpoint.

Fournier $18M + Cam $6M + a little more gets you to $24.3; that would be a prime starting point. Or just Randle $23.7 + a little more.

That little more stuff is any combo of Grimes, IQ, Obi. I guess you could include McBride but I don't think Utah values him and he would be a throw-in.

And then picks.

That's the outline. I think.

Cam, Obi and Rose? Plus a bunch of picks.

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:Donovan salary is $30M, that means outgoing salary must be minimum of ~$24.3M (min outgoing salary must be salary * 1.25 + $100,000 > Donovan salary) if we are just talking about a base trade of Mitchell for players + whatever.

If the Knicks and Utah have come to some sort of agreement on a fundamental trade, they have at least agreed on the base outgoing players (salary-wise) from the Knicks. That means they either have agreed to include RJ or not. If not, Utah has either agreed on taking Fournier or Randle (base salary you need to get to the $24.3M mark). Maybe you could start with Rose but I doubt they do that from Knicks standpoint.

Fournier $18M + Cam $6M + a little more gets you to $24.3; that would be a prime starting point. Or just Randle $23.7 + a little more.

That little more stuff is any combo of Grimes, IQ, Obi. I guess you could include McBride but I don't think Utah values him and he would be a throw-in.

And then picks.

That's the outline. I think.

Cam, Obi and Rose? Plus a bunch of picks.

My thoughts on a potential package.

I think it starts with Fournier and Reddish and they go from there. Utah additionally wants grimes but Knicks are holding firm due to this leaving them bare on the wings. I feel like adding Toppin to that package makes the most sense as he’s still positionally blocked here (the center investments clearly mean they don’t plan to play him much there) and he will have a real opportunity to excel in a rebuilding situation. Same could be said about Quickley but he can play both back court spots and Rose is on borrowed time. If the package is indeed Fournier, Reddish and Toppin, I believe utah can also fit Rudy Gay into that trade cap wise, who they are looking to unload and he can serve as a backup 4 here. Add in Jokubaitis rights and then we are talking draft picks. It’s likely 3 unprotected first and 2 swaps, plus 2 out of the 4 additional picks the Knicks own from other teams. Final trade :

Fournier, reddish, Toppin, right to Jokubaitis, 5 first round picks (3 unprotected) and 2 swaps for Mitchell and Gay

That leaves us with Brunson, Mitchell, Barrett, Randle and Robinson starting. Rose, Quickley, Grimes, Gay and Hartenstein as the 5 off the bench. That’s sort of my expectation. We will see.

The alternative would be exactly what you stated as well. Rose, Cam, Obi and the pick package above.

Chandler wrote:

CleaverGreene wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:
Any of the basketball savants here know when guys like MJ, Kobe, Steph and Klay started putting it fully together giving their all on both ends of the court? 25ish sounds right

if we do this we have to be sold that Donovan is still ascending. His defensive numbers are regressing though. SO we need to be sold that might be attitudinal as opposed to something else and that THibs can get the guy in his best shape to play elite at both ends like all the great ones have

I agree. He's a 25 yo 3x all star. I mean for the "HES NOT A FRANCHISE PLAYER" crowd wtf does one look like? He's an impact player and its not really up for discussion. Even though he and Brunson are small and a seemingly bad fit its on us to try it out and make it work.

Figure Obi/Grimes/Fournier/Cam for Mitchell with the Knicks giving up draft comp as well...

Feron Hunt suddenly becomes a needed role player. Rotation would look something like this:
Brunson/Mitchell/RJ/Randle/Mitch
bench: Rose/IQ/Hunt/Sims/Hart

Hart doesnt clog the post so I think Sims can play plenty of 4 with Hart there to space him. Hunt for size/defensive and Rose/IQ are self explanatory. McBride is Rose's backup.

I mean that is a REALLY good young team worth working on and developing chemistry.

So you think Utah would make the trade without getting Barrett? I'm assuming he will be part of the trade.

I don't see why they want Barret. If Barrett were lets say slam dunk max contract and Ainge were sold on RJ as a player then yes they'd want him -- but that's not the case

Instead, RJ's contract value is unclear. DOes AInge want RJ and then have to sort that out especially if he's not prepared to offer RJ max and RJ getting pissed. too risky

also adding rj means less picks which is what ainge really wants. If Ainge wanted quality players he'd keep DOnovan who is only 25 and entering his prime. Or he'd probably deal with Miami

He might want Randle with an eye to rehabbing his game and flipping him for more assets fown the road.

I suspect ainge wants Grimes more than Barrett

personally im a big RJ fan but i understand the fanbase with concerns

jaydh wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:We've got a lot of young guys starved for minutes. Consolidating talent makes sense. I get it, but the cost post-Gobert trade makes me uneasy. RJ is a deal breaker, cannot include him. If you manage to keep Quick out of the trade, that's a win. But the sheer number of picks being thrown out there are a killer.

Gun to my head, I balk.

I'd prefer to move Quick than Grimes.

I like both, but at this point, I think Grimes would be the guy I'd keep if it came down to these 2 players.

Chandler wrote:

Panos wrote:

Chandler wrote:We all know Thibs is fond of great players. [clip...]

What kind of revelation is this?
Is that some kind of unique quality for a coach? For a fan? Doesn't every coach want great players? I don't get the insinuation.

Yes of course every one wants better talent. THibs has openly expressed this fondness when talking about Rose and Butler.

i think the issue is one of degree. Whether it's nice or necessary. eg do you want 5 really, really good starting players or 1 or 2 superstars with less than really really good elsewhere

I am not sold on the trade but i have to imagine that Thibs is looking at Donovan's ability to score in the playoffs and realizing that's a real asset. the best against the best and scoring

think back to the Atlanta series. Thibs does not want to rely on Randle in those moments, and for the time being probably does not want to rely on RJ either.

Again not sold on the trade, but Donovan will score in those moments

I'm not 100% sold on the trade either. But are you saying we would have 5 really, really good starting players? Because I don't see that.
Show me the line up after a realistic trade for Donovan that even shows more than 1 or 2 all-stars in the line up?

But…

Is Mitchell the answer we’ve been hoping for? It kinda seems like we get him available when we also cover our PG spot. Yeah, Mitchell isn’t a true PG, but he had lots of success as a PG and his height fits there too.

So if we keep Barrett, is this team a threat in the East?

Brunson
Mitchell
Barrett
Randle
Robinson

Should I be more excited about this than I actually am?

Knicksfan wrote:I’m not an ultra prospect hugger because reality is that whenever a star is made available, you will have to offer prospects that you’d like to keep.

But…

Is Mitchell the answer we’ve been hoping for? It kinda seems like we get him available when we also cover our PG spot. Yeah, Mitchell isn’t a true PG, but he had lots of success as a PG and his height fits there too.

So if we keep Barrett, is this team a threat in the East?

Brunson
Mitchell
Barrett
Randle
Robinson

Should I be more excited about this than I actually am?

If Barrett puts it together next season and JR gets his head out of his ars, I think that could be a 1 seed.

Don’t mistake me - I would collect him in a heartbeat at a reasonable price and would shift my entire franchise outlook to build around him. Something I wish occurred prior to signing Brunson (only because I think Mitchell did better at PG last year - he has great positional length at PG).

It’s just that Miami giving up 3 1sts vs Knicks giving up 3 1sts is a huge difference in my opinion. I’d give draft position average at 15 (plus or minus 7) for a Knicks pick and 25 (plus or minus 4) for a Miami pick. I made those numbers up, but it’s what I think. I’m not on board with 3 Knick picks and 2 more other picks and Toppin and and and. Nope. It’s too much.

Rose, Fournier and IQ to Utah with 4 picks 2023 Knicks (Top 10 protected), 2023 Dallas (Top 10 Protected) 2025 Bucks (Top 3 protected), 2027 Knicks (Top 3 protected). Doubt anyone else is near this haul.

That leaves us with no cap space for a while and:

Brunson/McBride
Mitchell/Grimes
Barrett/Reddish
Randle/Toppin
Robinson/Hart/Sims

It’s not perfect but it’s pretty good.

I just don’t understand a ton more of players and picks going. Doesn’t make sense to me.

I would expect there is a price to pay for that. Games are won on the court, not in the court of public opinion.
Obi is likely gone. I want our picks protected. Shit goes wrong we need at least one pick protected.
Randle can beast and get rebounds. He is 4th option on offense!
Nothing written in stone that he sticks all the way. Role players and some picks going forward and thats a nice team.
No, its not a starphuch dream that we "bing bonging" our way to nirvana but its solid.
Chemistry will be the key and Thibs will have his work cut out. That, or you get to run it out and just run up the score!
Young core that can grow together. But there are other paths too. 25 year old and healthy kid with little baggage. Im not worried about our FO being used as we were in the past, or over paying.
If we get him it will hurt some. Jury will be out for 2 years is my expectations. Some of you will freak the fuck out anyway if your not already. Enjoy!!!!

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Panos wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Panos wrote:

Chandler wrote:We all know Thibs is fond of great players. [clip...]

What kind of revelation is this?
Is that some kind of unique quality for a coach? For a fan? Doesn't every coach want great players? I don't get the insinuation.

Yes of course every one wants better talent. THibs has openly expressed this fondness when talking about Rose and Butler.

i think the issue is one of degree. Whether it's nice or necessary. eg do you want 5 really, really good starting players or 1 or 2 superstars with less than really really good elsewhere

I am not sold on the trade but i have to imagine that Thibs is looking at Donovan's ability to score in the playoffs and realizing that's a real asset. the best against the best and scoring

think back to the Atlanta series. Thibs does not want to rely on Randle in those moments, and for the time being probably does not want to rely on RJ either.

Again not sold on the trade, but Donovan will score in those moments

I'm not 100% sold on the trade either. But are you saying we would have 5 really, really good starting players? Because I don't see that.
Show me the line up after a realistic trade for Donovan that even shows more than 1 or 2 all-stars in the line up?

i'm not saying we have that. I'm saying the way i think the coach thinks. How he prioritizes really good players and how you can't really substitute for an elite player by having lots of good but sub-elite players

i can't say every coach agrees with him. But i can say there are a lot of great coaches who believe there is no substitute.

Thibs knows there is no one on this roster he can truly count on getting a bucket when in the second round of the playoffs. Might they get a bucket, yes maybe if they're feeling confident or the opponent is choking. But can he count on them. Not yet. Not with Julius or RJ

If he gets Mitchell, he'll count on him scoring 28+ in the big game (and that will probably make Randle or RJ or whoever else more effective)

(disclaimer: i'm still concerned by his size)

EwingsGlass wrote:My issue with a trade for Mitchell is the perceived value of draft picks. If I am adding Mitchell as my 3rd superstar, yeah, you get 3 or 4 unprotected picks. But I don’t think Mitchell puts us over the top to take use out of middling lottery/play in.

Don’t mistake me - I would collect him in a heartbeat at a reasonable price and would shift my entire franchise outlook to build around him. Something I wish occurred prior to signing Brunson (only because I think Mitchell did better at PG last year - he has great positional length at PG).

It’s just that Miami giving up 3 1sts vs Knicks giving up 3 1sts is a huge difference in my opinion. I’d give draft position average at 15 (plus or minus 7) for a Knicks pick and 25 (plus or minus 4) for a Miami pick. I made those numbers up, but it’s what I think. I’m not on board with 3 Knick picks and 2 more other picks and Toppin and and and. Nope. It’s too much.

Rose, Fournier and IQ to Utah with 4 picks 2023 Knicks (Top 10 protected), 2023 Dallas (Top 10 Protected) 2025 Bucks (Top 3 protected), 2027 Knicks (Top 3 protected). Doubt anyone else is near this haul.

That leaves us with no cap space for a while and:

Brunson/McBride
Mitchell/Grimes
Barrett/Reddish
Randle/Toppin
Robinson/Hart/Sims

It’s not perfect but it’s pretty good.

I just don’t understand a ton more of players and picks going. Doesn’t make sense to me.

This goes with the "huge" package the Jazz from Minnesota. With Edwards, KAT, Russell already there- how good will those picks be? Minny even kept their best young defender to further downgrade those picks. I'd be surprised if any of them convert as lottery picks, especially considering how much worse the West has become relative to the East. Let's be real about the Knicks future pick value being high because it's the Knicks.