Knicks · Knicks in on Mitchell trade (page 11)

EwingsGlass wrote:My issue with a trade for Mitchell is the perceived value of draft picks. If I am adding Mitchell as my 3rd superstar, yeah, you get 3 or 4 unprotected picks. But I don’t think Mitchell puts us over the top to take use out of middling lottery/play in.

Don’t mistake me - I would collect him in a heartbeat at a reasonable price and would shift my entire franchise outlook to build around him. Something I wish occurred prior to signing Brunson (only because I think Mitchell did better at PG last year - he has great positional length at PG).

It’s just that Miami giving up 3 1sts vs Knicks giving up 3 1sts is a huge difference in my opinion. I’d give draft position average at 15 (plus or minus 7) for a Knicks pick and 25 (plus or minus 4) for a Miami pick. I made those numbers up, but it’s what I think. I’m not on board with 3 Knick picks and 2 more other picks and Toppin and and and. Nope. It’s too much.

Rose, Fournier and IQ to Utah with 4 picks 2023 Knicks (Top 10 protected), 2023 Dallas (Top 10 Protected) 2025 Bucks (Top 3 protected), 2027 Knicks (Top 3 protected). Doubt anyone else is near this haul.

That leaves us with no cap space for a while and:

Brunson/McBride
Mitchell/Grimes
Barrett/Reddish
Randle/Toppin
Robinson/Hart/Sims

It’s not perfect but it’s pretty good.

I just don’t understand a ton more of players and picks going. Doesn’t make sense to me.

This goes with the "huge" package the Jazz from Minnesota. With Edwards, KAT, Russell already there- how good will those picks be? Minny even kept their best young defender to further downgrade those picks. I'd be surprised if any of them convert as lottery picks, especially considering how much worse the West has become relative to the East. Let's be real about the Knicks future pick value being high because it's the Knicks.

Allanfan20 wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:I’m not an ultra prospect hugger because reality is that whenever a star is made available, you will have to offer prospects that you’d like to keep.

But…

Is Mitchell the answer we’ve been hoping for? It kinda seems like we get him available when we also cover our PG spot. Yeah, Mitchell isn’t a true PG, but he had lots of success as a PG and his height fits there too.

So if we keep Barrett, is this team a threat in the East?

Brunson
Mitchell
Barrett
Randle
Robinson

Should I be more excited about this than I actually am?

If Barrett puts it together next season and JR gets his head out of his ars, I think that could be a 1 seed.

add in if Thib convinces Mitchell that all of the great ones have been elite at both ends. Mitchell has that capability. he came into the league with a rep for defense and questions about his shot. Last two years though his D has declined. Not clear to me if that's physical issue (i doubt), whether there's a book out on his vulnerabilities which can be exploited (maybe and hopefully Thibs and Bryant can fix) or attitudinal (he's smart enough to know Utah wasn't getting better so why kill himself).

gradyandrew wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:My issue with a trade for Mitchell is the perceived value of draft picks. If I am adding Mitchell as my 3rd superstar, yeah, you get 3 or 4 unprotected picks. But I don’t think Mitchell puts us over the top to take use out of middling lottery/play in.

Don’t mistake me - I would collect him in a heartbeat at a reasonable price and would shift my entire franchise outlook to build around him. Something I wish occurred prior to signing Brunson (only because I think Mitchell did better at PG last year - he has great positional length at PG).

It’s just that Miami giving up 3 1sts vs Knicks giving up 3 1sts is a huge difference in my opinion. I’d give draft position average at 15 (plus or minus 7) for a Knicks pick and 25 (plus or minus 4) for a Miami pick. I made those numbers up, but it’s what I think. I’m not on board with 3 Knick picks and 2 more other picks and Toppin and and and. Nope. It’s too much.

Rose, Fournier and IQ to Utah with 4 picks 2023 Knicks (Top 10 protected), 2023 Dallas (Top 10 Protected) 2025 Bucks (Top 3 protected), 2027 Knicks (Top 3 protected). Doubt anyone else is near this haul.

That leaves us with no cap space for a while and:

Brunson/McBride
Mitchell/Grimes
Barrett/Reddish
Randle/Toppin
Robinson/Hart/Sims

It’s not perfect but it’s pretty good.

I just don’t understand a ton more of players and picks going. Doesn’t make sense to me.

This goes with the "huge" package the Jazz from Minnesota. With Edwards, KAT, Russell already there- how good will those picks be? Minny even kept their best young defender to further downgrade those picks. I'd be surprised if any of them convert as lottery picks, especially considering how much worse the West has become relative to the East. Let's be real about the Knicks future pick value being high because it's the Knicks.

Exactly my point. TWolves look top 4 on the West right now and locked in for 4+ years and improving. Knicks not so much…yet. Baby steps.

The visual is important (4 draft picks) but I don’t want to trade 4 lottery picks.

Gobert looks like “the piece” that helps them put it together.

Maybe they can 3 way with LAL to send Fournier and Rose to LAL and Westbrick to Utah. Utah can dump some more salary on LAL. 33 year old Bogdonavic would have some value there.

Utah might be able to nab some more picks in that move.

No evidence for this feeling but just don’t think Rose/Aller are going to do massive overpay right now.

Think behind the scenes there is some knowledge of where Mitch wants to go and Knicks will use some minimal but important leverage to keep the deal out of vomit worthy range.

Will say 2 young (Grimes/ Simms) and 1 older player (Rose) to make #s work. 2 unprotected and 2 protected #1s — plus 2 swaps.

Everyone knows Jazz and have to move him now - if Aller knows exactly max each team can bid against us with —- it may not matter what Ainge really wants.

Knicks keep RJ, Obi, Quick

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That's a big fat no from me. If you want all those picks the only young player you get is Cam. They want to wipe us out so we are one injury away from a high lotto team.

Clean wrote:

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That's a big fat no from me. If you want all those picks the only young player you get is Cam. They want to wipe us out so we are one injury away from a high lotto team.

That is exactly the point and they the FO gets that. Even more than the wolves a injury could send a thinned out Knicks team spiraling to a high lottery team. If Mitchell wasn’t a CAA client I would think they would have already told Ainge “Nope”.

LivingLegend wrote:No evidence for this feeling but just don’t think Rose/Aller are going to do massive overpay right now.

Think behind the scenes there is some knowledge of where Mitch wants to go and Knicks will use some minimal but important leverage to keep the deal out of vomit worthy range.

Will say 2 young (Grimes/ Simms) and 1 older player (Rose) to make #s work. 2 unprotected and 2 protected #1s — plus 2 swaps.

Everyone knows Jazz and have to move him now - if Aller knows exactly max each team can bid against us with —- it may not matter what Ainge really wants.

Knicks keep RJ, Obi, Quick

agree 100%

Clean wrote:

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That's a big fat no from me. If you want all those picks the only young player you get is Cam. They want to wipe us out so we are one injury away from a high lotto team.

classic negotiation stats. Ask for more you generally get more. Offer less generally pay less

Ainge: I want all your picks, and all your players, and your left testicle just because.... this guy is 25 yo 3x all star ready to launch to super star

Leon: i'll give you Fournier and a bag of day old donuts and second rounders. Guy is a midget, and his defense is already in decline

Let's see how it plays out

I hope the FO is willing to walk away if this is what Utah wants. We have to show a willingness to walk away to get a decent deal.

Clean wrote:

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That's a big fat no from me. If you want all those picks the only young player you get is Cam. They want to wipe us out so we are one injury away from a high lotto team.

I hope Danny Ainge is also looking to **** himself.

Hey Danny, go **** yourself!

Clean wrote:I hope the FO is willing to walk away if this is what Utah wants. We have to show a willingness to walk away to get a decent deal.

Yeah that’s a big f’ing haul.

I'm terrified of this, this will kill our franchise for years. We are not winning a title with Mitchell added to this group and that basically takes away the majority of our picks and flexibility for a long time.

Just say no.

gradyandrew wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:My issue with a trade for Mitchell is the perceived value of draft picks. If I am adding Mitchell as my 3rd superstar, yeah, you get 3 or 4 unprotected picks. But I don’t think Mitchell puts us over the top to take use out of middling lottery/play in.

Don’t mistake me - I would collect him in a heartbeat at a reasonable price and would shift my entire franchise outlook to build around him. Something I wish occurred prior to signing Brunson (only because I think Mitchell did better at PG last year - he has great positional length at PG).

It’s just that Miami giving up 3 1sts vs Knicks giving up 3 1sts is a huge difference in my opinion. I’d give draft position average at 15 (plus or minus 7) for a Knicks pick and 25 (plus or minus 4) for a Miami pick. I made those numbers up, but it’s what I think. I’m not on board with 3 Knick picks and 2 more other picks and Toppin and and and. Nope. It’s too much.

Rose, Fournier and IQ to Utah with 4 picks 2023 Knicks (Top 10 protected), 2023 Dallas (Top 10 Protected) 2025 Bucks (Top 3 protected), 2027 Knicks (Top 3 protected). Doubt anyone else is near this haul.

That leaves us with no cap space for a while and:

Brunson/McBride
Mitchell/Grimes
Barrett/Reddish
Randle/Toppin
Robinson/Hart/Sims

It’s not perfect but it’s pretty good.

I just don’t understand a ton more of players and picks going. Doesn’t make sense to me.

This goes with the "huge" package the Jazz from Minnesota. With Edwards, KAT, Russell already there- how good will those picks be? Minny even kept their best young defender to further downgrade those picks. I'd be surprised if any of them convert as lottery picks, especially considering how much worse the West has become relative to the East. Let's be real about the Knicks future pick value being high because it's the Knicks.

Tim Duncan and the Spurs don’t agree.
If knicks go all in it Should be for Durant. Durant is a true tier 1 player and we have the picks and players. Mitchell is just a very good player. If not. I’d rather keep what we have. Be patient

Knicks and Dolan have been proven to be suckers for almost 25 years running

I wish Ainge and the Jazz good luck in the play in tournament. I’m sure we offered a square deal, but Ainge is trying to get us to bid against ourselves. Ainge overplayed his hand here. Oh well I like our squad going into the season.

My ideal outcome is a trade that will still leave RJ, Grimes and Obi with the knicks. I can convince myself giving away 5 1st rounders and if Randle survives the trade as well which looks that way, find another way to trade him out for a better fitting player and just let OBi start.

If the knicks will still have RJ, Grimes and obi plus the new additions, giving away a big pick haul might be ok because this team will be young enough to grow together for a decade.

This front office should put a hard line, that prevents them to make future moves to improve the team.

Clean wrote:I hope the FO is willing to walk away if this is what Utah wants. We have to show a willingness to walk away to get a decent deal.

given how we got all the players we wanted, the trades, - I think this FO is unlike others we have had - 100% confident we will get a great deal- or walk.

BRIGGS wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:My issue with a trade for Mitchell is the perceived value of draft picks. If I am adding Mitchell as my 3rd superstar, yeah, you get 3 or 4 unprotected picks. But I don’t think Mitchell puts us over the top to take use out of middling lottery/play in.

Don’t mistake me - I would collect him in a heartbeat at a reasonable price and would shift my entire franchise outlook to build around him. Something I wish occurred prior to signing Brunson (only because I think Mitchell did better at PG last year - he has great positional length at PG).

It’s just that Miami giving up 3 1sts vs Knicks giving up 3 1sts is a huge difference in my opinion. I’d give draft position average at 15 (plus or minus 7) for a Knicks pick and 25 (plus or minus 4) for a Miami pick. I made those numbers up, but it’s what I think. I’m not on board with 3 Knick picks and 2 more other picks and Toppin and and and. Nope. It’s too much.

Rose, Fournier and IQ to Utah with 4 picks 2023 Knicks (Top 10 protected), 2023 Dallas (Top 10 Protected) 2025 Bucks (Top 3 protected), 2027 Knicks (Top 3 protected). Doubt anyone else is near this haul.

That leaves us with no cap space for a while and:

Brunson/McBride
Mitchell/Grimes
Barrett/Reddish
Randle/Toppin
Robinson/Hart/Sims

It’s not perfect but it’s pretty good.

I just don’t understand a ton more of players and picks going. Doesn’t make sense to me.

This goes with the "huge" package the Jazz from Minnesota. With Edwards, KAT, Russell already there- how good will those picks be? Minny even kept their best young defender to further downgrade those picks. I'd be surprised if any of them convert as lottery picks, especially considering how much worse the West has become relative to the East. Let's be real about the Knicks future pick value being high because it's the Knicks.

Tim Duncan and the Spurs don’t agree.
If knicks go all in it Should be for Durant. Durant is a true tier 1 player and we have the picks and players. Mitchell is just a very good player. If not. I’d rather keep what we have. Be patient

Knicks and Dolan have been proven to be suckers for almost 25 years running

I'm starting to agree with you on this. I was excited about the news at first. But the more I think on it, the more I'm left wondering how much a Brunson/Mitchell backcourt would make sense. I'm not even as down on Mitchell's defense as others on this board. A 6'1" backcourt just seems to be limited in a number of ways. I appreciate the FO going all in on a star, but the fit just seems awkward. The other teams in the East are going jumbo at all the perimeter positions. I have visions of Lonzo Ball and Lavine going for career highs at MSG night after night if this backcourt materializes. We need to get more wings like Grimes or Cam, not go back to a throwback here of Isaiah and Dumars.

I’m going back and forth on this. But doesn’t Grimes play better defense right now. Grimes is younger. And Grimes ceiling as a shooter is on par with Donovan current ceiling agree? Plus grimes is almost 3 inches taller and younger (I think I said that already). Donovan isn’t the missing piece to a championship. Utah was a way way better team and he couldn’t get them out of the first round. So what’s the point in trading all the youths and future for someone who’s just another piece and not the main piece that puts us over the top. If I’m trading the future (yoots and picks) we have to be a top 2 or 3 team in the east at a minimum. And I don’t see it.

Grimes and RJ together equals Donovan’s impact to me. Plus grimes and RJ are still improving. Donovan probably has already peaked physically. Grimes and RJ haven’t hit their physical peak yet. I hope the FO is smart and realize not to out bid themselves. Nobody is left that can offer what we can offer. Just play the waiting game and watch Ainge bend like a pretzel. If not oh well. We still in the same position with or without Donovan.

If there is anything the Knicks should have learned already is not to trade away unprotected picks. Certainly not fucking FOUR of them. I would at a minimum have top 3 protection on any traded pick and I'd prefer top 5.

Sorry, Mitchell is an all star but he's not a Superstar. He's not putting a team on his back and carrying them to the finals.
These rumors are too much, and like others here, i wouldn't pay that price.

BigDaddyG wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:My issue with a trade for Mitchell is the perceived value of draft picks. If I am adding Mitchell as my 3rd superstar, yeah, you get 3 or 4 unprotected picks. But I don’t think Mitchell puts us over the top to take use out of middling lottery/play in.

Don’t mistake me - I would collect him in a heartbeat at a reasonable price and would shift my entire franchise outlook to build around him. Something I wish occurred prior to signing Brunson (only because I think Mitchell did better at PG last year - he has great positional length at PG).

It’s just that Miami giving up 3 1sts vs Knicks giving up 3 1sts is a huge difference in my opinion. I’d give draft position average at 15 (plus or minus 7) for a Knicks pick and 25 (plus or minus 4) for a Miami pick. I made those numbers up, but it’s what I think. I’m not on board with 3 Knick picks and 2 more other picks and Toppin and and and. Nope. It’s too much.

Rose, Fournier and IQ to Utah with 4 picks 2023 Knicks (Top 10 protected), 2023 Dallas (Top 10 Protected) 2025 Bucks (Top 3 protected), 2027 Knicks (Top 3 protected). Doubt anyone else is near this haul.

That leaves us with no cap space for a while and:

Brunson/McBride
Mitchell/Grimes
Barrett/Reddish
Randle/Toppin
Robinson/Hart/Sims

It’s not perfect but it’s pretty good.

I just don’t understand a ton more of players and picks going. Doesn’t make sense to me.

This goes with the "huge" package the Jazz from Minnesota. With Edwards, KAT, Russell already there- how good will those picks be? Minny even kept their best young defender to further downgrade those picks. I'd be surprised if any of them convert as lottery picks, especially considering how much worse the West has become relative to the East. Let's be real about the Knicks future pick value being high because it's the Knicks.

Tim Duncan and the Spurs don’t agree.
If knicks go all in it Should be for Durant. Durant is a true tier 1 player and we have the picks and players. Mitchell is just a very good player. If not. I’d rather keep what we have. Be patient

Knicks and Dolan have been proven to be suckers for almost 25 years running

I'm starting to agree with you on this. I was excited about the news at first. But the more I think on it, the more I'm left wondering how much a Brunson/Mitchell backcourt would make sense. I'm not even as down on Mitchell's defense as others on this board. A 6'1" backcourt just seems to be limited in a number of ways. I appreciate the FO going all in on a star, but the fit just seems awkward. The other teams in the East are going jumbo at all the perimeter positions. I have visions of Lonzo Ball and Lavine going for career highs at MSG night after night if this backcourt materializes. We need to get more wings like Grimes or Cam, not go back to a throwback here of Isaiah and Dumars.

If you replace Durant with “SF” I am in agreement. My issue with Durant is that he doesn’t want to lead a team, he wants a ring. I don’t think adding Durant makes us a contender by itself. I think Mitchell is a top 15 or 20 player and is a building block that we can really build. I don’t think Mitchell by himself makes us a contender, but at 25, we have time to build. So, we can be patient and keep building. I’m more about Mitchell than Durant (but if Durant turned around and asked to be in NY id probably flip flop pretty quick.