Knicks · Knicks in on Mitchell trade (page 20)

Clean @ 7/19/2022 1:39 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:https://theathletic.com/3434338/2022/07/...


Leon Rose is New York’s team president, but he doesn’t do most of the day-to-day trade calls. Most commonly, those are up to vice president of basketball and strategic planning Brock Aller, who oversees salary cap management. Every once in a while, someone else will take the reins, especially when another Knicks higher-up has a solid relationship with an executive in an opposing front office they’re trying to make a deal with.

General manager Scott Perry was essential to the draft-day trades with the Oklahoma City Thunder and Detroit Pistons because of his relationships with Thunder GM Sam Presti and Pistons GM Troy Weaver. Both Perry and Weaver worked under Presti in OKC.

Most commonly, however, Aller is on the phone. Rose will often splice in near the end to wrap up deals.

Aller obsesses over marginal value, which should be refreshing for Knicks fans who remain traumatized from teams of the past needlessly tossing first-round picks into the fireplace. He wants to hold onto picks and acquire others. He notoriously squeezes teams just for the draft rights to an extra player, something that’s far more trivial to most others.

Amazing behind the scenes info.

martin @ 7/19/2022 2:02 PM
Clean wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:https://theathletic.com/3434338/2022/07/...


Leon Rose is New York’s team president, but he doesn’t do most of the day-to-day trade calls. Most commonly, those are up to vice president of basketball and strategic planning Brock Aller, who oversees salary cap management. Every once in a while, someone else will take the reins, especially when another Knicks higher-up has a solid relationship with an executive in an opposing front office they’re trying to make a deal with.

General manager Scott Perry was essential to the draft-day trades with the Oklahoma City Thunder and Detroit Pistons because of his relationships with Thunder GM Sam Presti and Pistons GM Troy Weaver. Both Perry and Weaver worked under Presti in OKC.

Most commonly, however, Aller is on the phone. Rose will often splice in near the end to wrap up deals.

Aller obsesses over marginal value, which should be refreshing for Knicks fans who remain traumatized from teams of the past needlessly tossing first-round picks into the fireplace. He wants to hold onto picks and acquire others. He notoriously squeezes teams just for the draft rights to an extra player, something that’s far more trivial to most others.

Amazing behind the scenes info.

Yes, I had same reaction and it plays out as I had expected and makes sense

HofstraBBall @ 7/19/2022 2:29 PM
foosballnick wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Bart and Hahn show was interesting- hahn seems pretty good that a deal will happen, though said watch out for Riley, just based on his powers. Said expect knicks to be willing to give up 6 first round picks, At least 3 of which will be unprotected. May also be pick swaps. Said the picks are not the problem.

Said what the knicks are worried about is gutting a bench that was very effective- they don't want to give up a lot from their bench. Thinks there will likely be a combo of reddish and toppin but not all the dudes. (This is likely the holdup or is why the jazz are checking round the league)

This is the way. Obi/Reddish and 6 FRPs (our 3 and the acquired 3) is a haul.

The plan seemed obvious to most. Stock pile assets through trades, draft and development for a chance to add a substantial piece to help you compete for a chip. Sure we all like the safe feeling of bunkering in and storing all our nuts but at some point you have to use the excess to meet your goals. The reality is that Obi, IQ, Grimes, Deuce and the many picks are just fan favorite hopefulls. They have proven NOTHING that points to a player that will considerably make a difference on a chip team. DM absolutely has. DM is the type of deal that the front office has been doing what they have been doing the last couple of years. This past draft is a good example of how draft picks may not be as valuable to one team as it is another. We have added too many picks to actually use so why not use them to get us a difference maker?

I want DM on this team. He is what we have been waiting for. Like most, I hope we are able to salvage some of the young hopefulls. And most importantly, not left with enough to compete. Like we did with Melo. But honestly think that in two to three years we will look back and see most of our hopefulls turn out just like the ones we traded in the Melo deal.

If we make the move for Mitchell I think Grimes is the guy you hold onto out of IQ, Obi and Grimes. A 3&D spot up wing becomes more important on the roster to enhance DM and Brunson.

Would vote for both IQ and Grimes to stay. I wanted the Knicks to draft Obi but after watching him for a couple of years think he will never be more than a high energy role player off the bench.
If we are able to keep DM, Brunson, RJ, Randle and Mitch with
IQ, Grimes, Cam, Hartenstein and Sims in the second unit, feel we can compete and in a lot better scenerio than when we traded for Melo. Not to mention still extremely young.

Clean @ 7/19/2022 2:40 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
foosballnick wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Bart and Hahn show was interesting- hahn seems pretty good that a deal will happen, though said watch out for Riley, just based on his powers. Said expect knicks to be willing to give up 6 first round picks, At least 3 of which will be unprotected. May also be pick swaps. Said the picks are not the problem.

Said what the knicks are worried about is gutting a bench that was very effective- they don't want to give up a lot from their bench. Thinks there will likely be a combo of reddish and toppin but not all the dudes. (This is likely the holdup or is why the jazz are checking round the league)

This is the way. Obi/Reddish and 6 FRPs (our 3 and the acquired 3) is a haul.

The plan seemed obvious to most. Stock pile assets through trades, draft and development for a chance to add a substantial piece to help you compete for a chip. Sure we all like the safe feeling of bunkering in and storing all our nuts but at some point you have to use the excess to meet your goals. The reality is that Obi, IQ, Grimes, Deuce and the many picks are just fan favorite hopefulls. They have proven NOTHING that points to a player that will considerably make a difference on a chip team. DM absolutely has. DM is the type of deal that the front office has been doing what they have been doing the last couple of years. This past draft is a good example of how draft picks may not be as valuable to one team as it is another. We have added too many picks to actually use so why not use them to get us a difference maker?

I want DM on this team. He is what we have been waiting for. Like most, I hope we are able to salvage some of the young hopefulls. And most importantly, not left with enough to compete. Like we did with Melo. But honestly think that in two to three years we will look back and see most of our hopefulls turn out just like the ones we traded in the Melo deal.

If we make the move for Mitchell I think Grimes is the guy you hold onto out of IQ, Obi and Grimes. A 3&D spot up wing becomes more important on the roster to enhance DM and Brunson.

Would vote for both IQ and Grimes to stay. I wanted the Knicks to draft Obi but after watching him for a couple of years think he will never be more than a high energy role player off the bench.
If we are able to keep DM, Brunson, RJ, Randle and Mitch with
IQ, Grimes, Cam, Hartenstein and Sims in the second unit, feel we can compete and in a lot better scenerio than when we traded for Melo. Not to mention still extremely young.

I am going to be honest. I think Quick, Obi and Grimes Ceiling is really good role players that help winning. They may never be all stars but they will be very important to winning. This is why I want to keep them out of the trade. I would add McBride but him not being able to breakdown the D is a huge impediment to his potential.

martin @ 7/19/2022 2:49 PM
martin @ 7/19/2022 2:54 PM
Tyler Herro hasn't signed an extension. Neither has RJ.

In the back of my mind the only reason (besides just not coming to terms with each of the players) that each hasn't happened is because each team is holding them out in a possible trade scenario.

There is just too many weird denials from both sides of NY and Utah that they either don't want RJ or they don't want to trade away RJ. Why does each team need to deny this in the press so many times and why is it being repeatedly put out there? Just doesn't make sense to me.

It also could be nothing but it's just too weird for me.

BRIGGS @ 7/19/2022 3:23 PM
No way do I want to trade so much for Mitchell when we just got Brunson for a contract. We are much improved as is. We were good two years ago and now we have Brunson and rose back. We have the depth to withstand injury all year. We have multi faceted line ups
We have immense trade power if needed but we can also keep the picks and keep moving them along to keep the franchise strong long term
You give up your downside protection as well for 5-6 years
It’s so NOT worth it
Forget all the assets too. We don’t need Mitchell! We have Brunson?????
smackeddog @ 7/19/2022 3:29 PM
martin wrote:Tyler Herro hasn't signed an extension. Neither has RJ.

In the back of my mind the only reason (besides just not coming to terms with each of the players) that each hasn't happened is because each team is holding them out in a possible trade scenario.

There is just too many weird denials from both sides of NY and Utah that they either don't want RJ or they don't want to trade away RJ. Why does each team need to deny this in the press so many times and why is it being repeatedly put out there? Just doesn't make sense to me.

It also could be nothing but it's just too weird for me.

I'm also wary of the Nets- say they figure out a way to unload Simmons, maybe for, at worst a pick. Now they can legally have D-Mitch on the roster as they got rid of the designated player in Simons. They then execute a KD trade for a player and picks (say, ideally to the Pelicans for Ingram and a boatload of picks). They then swoop in and trade the boat load of picks for D-Mitch, and rebuild around D-Mitch and Ingram, plus the shooting role players they have in Mills, Seth, O'Neal (D-Mitch's friend who they did that "very strange, very strange" trade with Utah for.

fishmike @ 7/19/2022 3:47 PM
Clean wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:https://theathletic.com/3434338/2022/07/...


Leon Rose is New York’s team president, but he doesn’t do most of the day-to-day trade calls. Most commonly, those are up to vice president of basketball and strategic planning Brock Aller, who oversees salary cap management. Every once in a while, someone else will take the reins, especially when another Knicks higher-up has a solid relationship with an executive in an opposing front office they’re trying to make a deal with.

General manager Scott Perry was essential to the draft-day trades with the Oklahoma City Thunder and Detroit Pistons because of his relationships with Thunder GM Sam Presti and Pistons GM Troy Weaver. Both Perry and Weaver worked under Presti in OKC.

Most commonly, however, Aller is on the phone. Rose will often splice in near the end to wrap up deals.

Aller obsesses over marginal value, which should be refreshing for Knicks fans who remain traumatized from teams of the past needlessly tossing first-round picks into the fireplace. He wants to hold onto picks and acquire others. He notoriously squeezes teams just for the draft rights to an extra player, something that’s far more trivial to most others.

Amazing behind the scenes info.

this brings me some hope. DM is fantastic but not a generational guy. He's also not the perfect fit so there's a lot of X/O type factors I really hope we are looking at. I think we are in pretty good shape and dont need to give up the team to be relevant
EwingsGlass @ 7/19/2022 4:12 PM
BRIGGS wrote:No way do I want to trade so much for Mitchell when we just got Brunson for a contract. We are much improved as is. We were good two years ago and now we have Brunson and rose back. We have the depth to withstand injury all year. We have multi faceted line ups
We have immense trade power if needed but we can also keep the picks and keep moving them along to keep the franchise strong long term
You give up your downside protection as well for 5-6 years
It’s so NOT worth it
Forget all the assets too. We don’t need Mitchell! We have Brunson?????

You could run the same analysis of Randle and Fournier for Westbrook and a 2027 pick from LAL and I might be on board without giving up so much youth. I think that Obi lines up better next to Brunson anyway. I'd probably still want to give up some youth for a 3&D SF, but I don't really want IQ and Grimes hanging out in the East.

Brunson/Rose
IQ/McBride
Barrett/Grimes
Toppin/Reddish
Robinson/Hart

I think you have room for addition by subtraction here even if you just cut Westbrook.

fishmike @ 7/19/2022 4:47 PM
EwingsGlass wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:No way do I want to trade so much for Mitchell when we just got Brunson for a contract. We are much improved as is. We were good two years ago and now we have Brunson and rose back. We have the depth to withstand injury all year. We have multi faceted line ups
We have immense trade power if needed but we can also keep the picks and keep moving them along to keep the franchise strong long term
You give up your downside protection as well for 5-6 years
It’s so NOT worth it
Forget all the assets too. We don’t need Mitchell! We have Brunson?????

You could run the same analysis of Randle and Fournier for Westbrook and a 2027 pick from LAL and I might be on board without giving up so much youth. I think that Obi lines up better next to Brunson anyway. I'd probably still want to give up some youth for a 3&D SF, but I don't really want IQ and Grimes hanging out in the East.

Brunson/Rose
IQ/McBride
Barrett/Grimes
Toppin/Reddish
Robinson/Hart

I think you have room for addition by subtraction here even if you just cut Westbrook.

god that makes us a much WORSE basketball team. Obi isnt remotely close to as good as Randle no matter how much he annoys everyone
EwingsGlass @ 7/19/2022 5:36 PM
fishmike wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:No way do I want to trade so much for Mitchell when we just got Brunson for a contract. We are much improved as is. We were good two years ago and now we have Brunson and rose back. We have the depth to withstand injury all year. We have multi faceted line ups
We have immense trade power if needed but we can also keep the picks and keep moving them along to keep the franchise strong long term
You give up your downside protection as well for 5-6 years
It’s so NOT worth it
Forget all the assets too. We don’t need Mitchell! We have Brunson?????

You could run the same analysis of Randle and Fournier for Westbrook and a 2027 pick from LAL and I might be on board without giving up so much youth. I think that Obi lines up better next to Brunson anyway. I'd probably still want to give up some youth for a 3&D SF, but I don't really want IQ and Grimes hanging out in the East.

Brunson/Rose
IQ/McBride
Barrett/Grimes
Toppin/Reddish
Robinson/Hart

I think you have room for addition by subtraction here even if you just cut Westbrook.

god that makes us a much WORSE basketball team. Obi isnt remotely close to as good as Randle no matter how much he annoys everyone

Bring stats to back that up. I think you are wrong.

If you combined Fournier and Randle you could have one effective player. Fournier on offense and Randle on defense.

Its amazing how little Randle's 20/10/5 does for us. Its a product of heliocentric offense where he is used to getting the ball moved through him. Randle benefits from Robinson box outs to pad his rebounding stats. If you watch his rebounding numbers, they jumped by 2.5 rebs a year when Thibs got here and made Robinson box out instead of rebound. His 20 points come on .459 efg which is worse than Russell Westbrick. His defense is pretty good.

Fournier's eFG is pretty good, but his defense is poor. I've belabored this point ad nauseum.

This shows in their respective PERs. Not a fantastic stat, but a decent indicator of efficiency on the court. If you look at PER, both Toppin and IQ have a better PER than Randle and Fournier. If you look at Per36 numbers, IQ and Toppin put up close to the same numbers. Both shoot better from the FT line and both play arguably better defense.

I also think Toppin is in a better position to benefit from Jalen Brunson. I think his ability to move without the ball (unlike Randle) will result in a lot of easy points for Brunson. I think Randle's parking spot at the top of the key will clog the lane for Brunson and Barrett.

Toppin has an eFG of .586 in 17 minutes against mostly second unit players. I don't expect him to carry that forward perfectly. His 30% from 3 needs work. But his upside is much higher still than Randle.

IQ's offense is not as solid as Fournier's but his defense is much better. Despite being slightly shorter he has a longer wingspan and clogs the passing lane. He also contests more shots on a per36 basis. Toppin contests more shots on a per36 than Randle also.

I think the only thing combined Randle and Fournier do better than combined IQ and Toppin is collect pay checks. That's addition by subtraction at its finest.

I understand the emotional burdens of looking at two players in our starting lineup and realizing they suck, but they aren't that good.

You can say that maybe they had a bad year. And maybe they had a bad year. But that ball movement was terrible, shot selection was terrible, attitude was terrible, win/loss was terrible enough to be in the lottery without being bad enough to get a good pick.

And here's the thing. I don't care if we are worse. I do care if we are marginally better or marginally worse, but at this point, those two are terrible and have some of the worst player winning percentages in the league. They don't win here, they don't win there, they don't win anywhere. eFG and defense wins ballgames. I want players that have both.

martin @ 7/19/2022 6:07 PM
smackeddog wrote:
martin wrote:Tyler Herro hasn't signed an extension. Neither has RJ.

In the back of my mind the only reason (besides just not coming to terms with each of the players) that each hasn't happened is because each team is holding them out in a possible trade scenario.

There is just too many weird denials from both sides of NY and Utah that they either don't want RJ or they don't want to trade away RJ. Why does each team need to deny this in the press so many times and why is it being repeatedly put out there? Just doesn't make sense to me.

It also could be nothing but it's just too weird for me.

I'm also wary of the Nets- say they figure out a way to unload Simmons, maybe for, at worst a pick. Now they can legally have D-Mitch on the roster as they got rid of the designated player in Simons. They then execute a KD trade for a player and picks (say, ideally to the Pelicans for Ingram and a boatload of picks). They then swoop in and trade the boat load of picks for D-Mitch, and rebuild around D-Mitch and Ingram, plus the shooting role players they have in Mills, Seth, O'Neal (D-Mitch's friend who they did that "very strange, very strange" trade with Utah for.

I guess you could do the What If scenario all day. I don’t worry about what others may be able to do

BigDaddyG @ 7/19/2022 6:07 PM
martin @ 7/19/2022 6:13 PM
TPercy @ 7/19/2022 6:17 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:

we have too much to lose? what are we losing exactly? this beat reporter has no idea what hes talking about. Last I checked we aren't trying to be in Wemby sweapstakes lol

BigDaddyG @ 7/19/2022 6:19 PM
TPercy wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:

we have too much to lose? what are we losing exactly? this beat reporter has no idea what hes talking about. Last I checked we aren't trying to be in Wemby sweapstakes lol

It's almost like Danny has his hands up Tony's @$$ and is moving his mouth like a puppet.

jskinny35 @ 7/19/2022 6:25 PM
fishmike wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:No way do I want to trade so much for Mitchell when we just got Brunson for a contract. We are much improved as is. We were good two years ago and now we have Brunson and rose back. We have the depth to withstand injury all year. We have multi faceted line ups
We have immense trade power if needed but we can also keep the picks and keep moving them along to keep the franchise strong long term
You give up your downside protection as well for 5-6 years
It’s so NOT worth it
Forget all the assets too. We don’t need Mitchell! We have Brunson?????

You could run the same analysis of Randle and Fournier for Westbrook and a 2027 pick from LAL and I might be on board without giving up so much youth. I think that Obi lines up better next to Brunson anyway. I'd probably still want to give up some youth for a 3&D SF, but I don't really want IQ and Grimes hanging out in the East.

Brunson/Rose
IQ/McBride
Barrett/Grimes
Toppin/Reddish
Robinson/Hart

I think you have room for addition by subtraction here even if you just cut Westbrook.

god that makes us a much WORSE basketball team. Obi isnt remotely close to as good as Randle no matter how much he annoys everyone

If you compare stats then yes - it looks bad. If you consider chemistry, pace, youth, etc... Obi just fits better with most lineups because he doesn't need the ball in his hands, he cuts, takes lobs, hustles and leaks out on the break. Randle is no qustion more talented and can iso-score better - but when the ball switches to being primarily in Mitchell, Bruson and (to lesser extent) RJ's hands - Randle would have to accept and improve at being a guy that sits at the 3 pt line and doesn't hold the ball. Problem is he was at his best/most effective when he controlled and directed the offense as the PG forward. So while Obi may only turn out to be a 12pts, 5 rebounds player - he will definitely fit better if the offense runs through our guards.

martin @ 7/19/2022 6:29 PM
LOL

BigDaddyG @ 7/19/2022 6:34 PM
martin wrote:LOL

$10 for the Mitchell shirt. I picked two up.

HofstraBBall @ 7/19/2022 9:29 PM
EwingsGlass wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:No way do I want to trade so much for Mitchell when we just got Brunson for a contract. We are much improved as is. We were good two years ago and now we have Brunson and rose back. We have the depth to withstand injury all year. We have multi faceted line ups
We have immense trade power if needed but we can also keep the picks and keep moving them along to keep the franchise strong long term
You give up your downside protection as well for 5-6 years
It’s so NOT worth it
Forget all the assets too. We don’t need Mitchell! We have Brunson?????

You could run the same analysis of Randle and Fournier for Westbrook and a 2027 pick from LAL and I might be on board without giving up so much youth. I think that Obi lines up better next to Brunson anyway. I'd probably still want to give up some youth for a 3&D SF, but I don't really want IQ and Grimes hanging out in the East.

Brunson/Rose
IQ/McBride
Barrett/Grimes
Toppin/Reddish
Robinson/Hart

I think you have room for addition by subtraction here even if you just cut Westbrook.

That starting lineup would be concerning. Especially if IQ and RJ have the type of first halves they had last year. Adding Obi who can't shoot and is a terrible pairing with Mitch, who essentially only scores in the same manner, would be a mistake. Imho. Not to mention that some are forgetting that it will be tough for Brunson to repeat what he did last year on a larger sample size and with many more expectations. Not to mention, in a much bigger market.

Also do not see any chance that Rose is okay with presenting the Knick fans with that lineup.
DM is exactly what Rose wants the next step to be. A step above fielding a bunch of hopefuls and unproven. Which is what we have fielded since the end of the Melo era.

Page 20 of 48
Back to Knicks Forum
2025 © UltimateKnicks.com