Knicks · Rudy gobert trade has now changed nba (page 1)
I thought this was an interesting piece, not just for the usefulness of listing traded picks but also the analysis of valuing picks was interesting. I think the big caveat for those future Minnesota picks is having Anthony Edwards on the roster along with KAT. That puts a pretty high floor on the value of those picks. Not quite Milwaukee trading for Jrue Holiday but close. Weakening Utah also makes it more likely for the Wolves to make the playoffs. I think Ainge was just as motivated by the possibility of Utah keeping their own protected picks as they were about getting Minnesota's.
I think the Anthony Davis trade was objectively bigger. Hart Lonzo and Ingraham are all solid, young players and the Lakers also gave up a bunch of picks. I think Davis and Ingraham already have equal value so it looks like the Pelicans made out really well from that trade.
You can to players like Carmelo and Durant are just top scorers without any team-leadership in their performance.
Gobert's defensive-leadership & Anthony Edwards offensive-leadership will give the 50 win season Timberwolves a new look.
If Davis were to be traded he still fetches a return even diminished.
Minny under new transformation at ownership level have compelling pieces that warrant the trade. At this juncture the trade could be very worthwhile for them. Another team in different circumstances might not.
DM to knicks is about whats left over as much as or more than what goes out. OP deems it not a necessary trade and perhaps a better deal comes along. The issue is we can’t use all our picks and we don’t know what players come down the pike that become available.
Trades are painful until hindsight.
Winning chips is hard. Really hard. To say “no guarantee we get one so lets not………(add pick, trade, FA, etc)” is easy to say given the odds are always against a team. The really hard part is to say “get me this player/Coach/Picks and in a year or two, or three we win a chip!!!” Injuries and what other teams do matter.
Melo when in Denver did not advance because he was a certain type of player, the Spurs and Lakers were just better than them.
NYKBocker wrote:NBA needs to self correct cause that trade is bonkers. Maybe the NBA can put restrictions to prevent sharks like Ainge from devouring GMs like the Minny GM.
No. Minny wins a chip its successful. The picks are of unknown value. What should be procured is protections if indigenous picks, should have protections if trade asset is damaaged or does not play to a certain standard be reduced. Say Rudy blows out his knee. not Utahs fault but if Minny sucks, they are rewarded by a swap? That is wrong.
The Eddy trade? The worse he got the better it was for Chicago.
but nobody put a gun to Minnys head and forced them. Not like Isiah was coerced into making the eddy trade either.
Protections from "Sharks"? I don't agree. You throw chum in the water its best to to swim in it.
Old saying "Price is only an issue in the absence of value".
The Septian rule existed as to remove teams from taking so bad it affected the home teams when t his shit franchises came to town and they oould not sell tickets. League did step in unofficially from what I could tell when Josh Harris instructed Hinkie to keep going deeper.
Nalod wrote:Lakers have a chip so the trade achieved their objective?
If Davis were to be traded he still fetches a return even diminished.
Minny under new transformation at ownership level have compelling pieces that warrant the trade. At this juncture the trade could be very worthwhile for them. Another team in different circumstances might not.DM to knicks is about whats left over as much as or more than what goes out. OP deems it not a necessary trade and perhaps a better deal comes along. The issue is we can’t use all our picks and we don’t know what players come down the pike that become available.
Trades are painful until hindsight.
Winning chips is hard. Really hard. To say “no guarantee we get one so lets not………(add pick, trade, FA, etc)” is easy to say given the odds are always against a team. The really hard part is to say “get me this player/Coach/Picks and in a year or two, or three we win a chip!!!” Injuries and what other teams do matter.
Melo when in Denver did not advance because he was a certain type of player, the Spurs and Lakers were just better than them.
This is really accurate.
I also agree about Mitchell cost being the main reason the trade seems to have fizzled. The Melo deal showed that you got to have a good team and talented players.
It also doesn't hurt that the knicks are relatively young. The Warriors winning another chip might mean they are back to being nearly unstoppable. The knicks being young means they don't have to put their chips all in and try to compete with that either.
wargames wrote:Nalod wrote:Lakers have a chip so the trade achieved their objective?
If Davis were to be traded he still fetches a return even diminished.
Minny under new transformation at ownership level have compelling pieces that warrant the trade. At this juncture the trade could be very worthwhile for them. Another team in different circumstances might not.DM to knicks is about whats left over as much as or more than what goes out. OP deems it not a necessary trade and perhaps a better deal comes along. The issue is we can’t use all our picks and we don’t know what players come down the pike that become available.
Trades are painful until hindsight.
Winning chips is hard. Really hard. To say “no guarantee we get one so lets not………(add pick, trade, FA, etc)” is easy to say given the odds are always against a team. The really hard part is to say “get me this player/Coach/Picks and in a year or two, or three we win a chip!!!” Injuries and what other teams do matter.
Melo when in Denver did not advance because he was a certain type of player, the Spurs and Lakers were just better than them.This is really accurate.
I also agree about Mitchell cost being the main reason the trade seems to have fizzled. The Melo deal showed that you got to have a good team and talented players.
It also doesn't hurt that the knicks are relatively young. The Warriors winning another chip might mean they are back to being nearly unstoppable. The knicks being young means they don't have to put their chips all in and try to compete with that either.
Im really on the fence about DM. Like I said, we really can't use all our picks. We can kick the can down the road into more if a team is looking to do such a thing. The Trade at dealine moving Duran for 3 picks and opening up cap space was beyond my scope as it was for others. Many panned it before digested it.
When a water hydro electric plan has excess power they don't let it go to waste. They pump water back up. It might diminish the output a bit but not to waste. Draft picks can be used the same way.
As for DM, he is not clear cut super star that would define our franchise. He is not a big 2, or a solve a glaring hole. I dig the yoot and the picks but this is what is in front of us. Maybe thats what actually feels right about this? Im in the 4 picks, Obi and Grimes as my max. does that match the Minny deal? Maybe. Maybe we undervaluing Rudy. He is a max player. Minny did not blink at his salary. An 3x time allstar, 4 time DPOY, 6 time 1st all defensive team and 4 time All NBA team. (one 3rd team, 2 second team)........ so lets say Rudy is 30 and enroute to HOF. That puts a different spin on things perhaps? I did not think much about him until I looked this up and its a pretty gaudy resume.
Now, we might not be all that enthralled with rudy as knick fans and can't say I watched too many Utah games on TV to vouch for the man, but if it was not for the media pouncing on the deal would we be otherwise? That resume is pretty good. WE like defense still?
I like our yoot and would prefer IQ over those two in a deal. None of our assessments as fans matter. I have read great hope about IQ, Grimes and Obi and perhaps these are young eager yoots we like vs the big grumpy Randle who by some discarded as worthless and untradeable.
Back to DM. This is a playoff performer who has done well on teams that also had great regular seasons but have not made strides to get over that hump. Also, did they choke? Some. Did they get beat by better teams? yeah, some. Did they perhaps play over their heads in regular seasons? Is that really a bad thing? we tread our 2020 4th seed like the benchmark and we failed in the post season as if we "all that". We had some really nice stretches that season due to many factors.
We a good team that slumped last season or a bad team that played great the year before? Jury is still out.
Kemet wrote:You can't put a price tag on any of the NBA top team leadership players as Gobert and Chris Paul.
You can to players like Carmelo and Durant are just top scorers without any team-leadership in their performance.Gobert's defensive-leadership & Anthony Edwards offensive-leadership will give the 50 win season Timberwolves a new look.
I really thought this comment was spot on. There's more to it than just individual stats that lead to winning. I guess time will tell regarding the value of those picks but it seems like it was worth it. Gobert has been just about as consistent as you can be in the NBA and he doesn't need the ball to be highly effective. Not many guys in the league can do that.
gradyandrew wrote:Kemet wrote:You can't put a price tag on any of the NBA top team leadership players as Gobert and Chris Paul.
You can to players like Carmelo and Durant are just top scorers without any team-leadership in their performance.Gobert's defensive-leadership & Anthony Edwards offensive-leadership will give the 50 win season Timberwolves a new look.
I really thought this comment was spot on. There's more to it than just individual stats that lead to winning. I guess time will tell regarding the value of those picks but it seems like it was worth it. Gobert has been just about as consistent as you can be in the NBA and he doesn't need the ball to be highly effective. Not many guys in the league can do that.
what?
it's easy to hate on durant right now but he's "like Carmelo ... just top scorers without any team-leadership in their performance???"
unlike carmelo, durant has gone to 4 finals. one he didn't play in due to injury, 2 of the other 3 he won and was finals mvp with the following stat lines:
35/8/5 on .56/.47/.93
29/11/8 on .53/.41/.96
Rudy is done as elite player as if they don’t shoot threes amymore and in parameter defense does not matter?
Im defending the POTENTIAL of the trade as Minny looks to break thru. NO guarantee of a chip. Team advanced once in their history in playoffs. Its been a shit show. Winning is hard. they are going for a higher level NOW.
What ever ainge awsked for Leon did not agree. thats all we know.
I did not like the melo trade. Why? Thought we paid too much. Why? Would gallo,chandler, etc won us a Chip? Of course not. WE melo the best player? By a long shot. No, Not becuae we not win a chip, it was the thin team we had in the ensuing year and thus in hindsight was verified by the result. We did not succeed to hava a winning record by for one year. And that year we fried thru 5 players who retired on us.
IF we can keep and build on it then paying a high price is not silly. But that takes 5 years in hindsight to make that call an also see waht Utah does with our assetts.. We win a trade by succeeding and enjoying the players and the games. Not by a letter grade in the summer.
BRIGGS wrote:There has been reasonable precedent set probably by our knicks for trading unprotected picks with young players. But this Gobert trade has lifted the bar so to speak. He’s a good player— not better team wise than Carmelo anything for comparison but the cost to acquire him was! Now the bar for good players is 4-5 unprotected picks and swaps. How do the nets trade Durant? And if you’re the Knicks u go higher than that for Mitchell? I don’t want the Knicks to set new levels just because we might want him. The right thing to do is keep the bar under that
2 first round picks for Mozgov to join the Cavs didnt raise the bar back then, as far as I can tell. It was a measure of how desperate they were for one of the last pieces needed to contend, with Lebron. Same deal with Gobert.
The Knicks wont be a legit contender, even with DM on the roster. There isnt that desperation to add that final piece. A lot of teams are in the same situation. So I doubt this will change anything.
shinmen wrote:You're right. however there was no Mitchell or Durant to trade after mozgov. Ainge and marks want to preserve their image. You can't trade for less than Gobert a Mitchell or a Durant. If the Gobert trade hadn't happen, I think both the jazz and the nets would have more reasonable demands
Again, what is very important is what does Minny have left to win and fill out its roster with.
Marks rebuilt in a few short years Nets and did it without most of its picks post Billy King Era.
Perhaps this era of picks being a higher currency is the residual of lower odds when tanking? You get 42% chance of top three pick if your the worst team. Thats 14% per spot. Thats not great if there is just one player to turn a teams fortunes around.
In the era where extensions are more prevalent and has incentivized players to stay there are fewer stars on the trade block and few that go outright Free in their prime. Its not crazy that Durant wants a trade, but he has like no leverage and 4 years left. Rudy, a still in prime player at his position and the best at what he does in the league (Defensive) with a few years left in his deal, and of course DM, a 3x all star at age 26 with 3 years left on his deal. These are rarities and their specifics due in part to what this CBA offers.
Its not epidemic that players are asking to leave. The economics are compelling factors adding value to them.
If these things are true, then their trade value can be justified as higher. Melo was walking into an opt out year and a looming shotdown that resulted in a strike. The Super max extension was not in place then. He took fewer years then opted out again a few years later to make up for it. With the supermax now it chnages things.
Money matters.
GustavBahler wrote:BRIGGS wrote:There has been reasonable precedent set probably by our knicks for trading unprotected picks with young players. But this Gobert trade has lifted the bar so to speak. He’s a good player— not better team wise than Carmelo anything for comparison but the cost to acquire him was! Now the bar for good players is 4-5 unprotected picks and swaps. How do the nets trade Durant? And if you’re the Knicks u go higher than that for Mitchell? I don’t want the Knicks to set new levels just because we might want him. The right thing to do is keep the bar under that2 first round picks for Mozgov to join the Cavs didnt raise the bar back then, as far as I can tell. It was a measure of how desperate they were for one of the last pieces needed to contend, with Lebron. Same deal with Gobert.
The Knicks wont be a legit contender, even with DM on the roster. There isnt that desperation to add that final piece. A lot of teams are in the same situation. So I doubt this will change anything.
Yep, and thats the issue trading for DM. The Knicks still won't be a contender after the trade, and they will be depleted of assets.
I want Mitchell but Ainge can go f himself. 6x first round picks plus our entire young core minus RJ b tch please
Nalod wrote:Maybe we undervaluing Rudy. He is a max player. Minny did not blink at his salary. An 3x time allstar, 4 time DPOY, 6 time 1st all defensive team and 4 time All NBA team. (one 3rd team, 2 second team)........ so lets say Rudy is 30 and enroute to HOF. That puts a different spin on things perhaps? I did not think much about him until I looked this up and its a pretty gaudy resume.
Now, we might not be all that enthralled with rudy as knick fans and can't say I watched too many Utah games on TV to vouch for the man, but if it was not for the media pouncing on the deal would we be otherwise? That resume is pretty good. WE like defense still?
I think Gobert’s value is tough to quantify for the Knick fans because we’ve had the value Mitch deal, saw Noel do killer work in his first season with us on a dime. We sort of feel like maybe Mitch’s upside could be Gobert with more speed and hops, but that really downplays Gobert’s polished all around game and tangible stats.
As further reference to the odd value of centers: Even former DPOTY Dwight Howard can’t even stick with a team and is effectively making the rounds on veterans min deals in spite of putting up solid per minute stats.
technomaster wrote:Nalod wrote:Maybe we undervaluing Rudy. He is a max player. Minny did not blink at his salary. An 3x time allstar, 4 time DPOY, 6 time 1st all defensive team and 4 time All NBA team. (one 3rd team, 2 second team)........ so lets say Rudy is 30 and enroute to HOF. That puts a different spin on things perhaps? I did not think much about him until I looked this up and its a pretty gaudy resume.
Now, we might not be all that enthralled with rudy as knick fans and can't say I watched too many Utah games on TV to vouch for the man, but if it was not for the media pouncing on the deal would we be otherwise? That resume is pretty good. WE like defense still?I think Gobert’s value is tough to quantify for the Knick fans because we’ve had the value Mitch deal, saw Noel do killer work in his first season with us on a dime. We sort of feel like maybe Mitch’s upside could be Gobert with more speed and hops, but that really downplays Gobert’s polished all around game and tangible stats.
As further reference to the odd value of centers: Even former DPOTY Dwight Howard can’t even stick with a team and is effectively making the rounds on veterans min deals in spite of putting up solid per minute stats.
Dwight is 36 and had back issues with a shitty attitude for a number of years.
Rudy offensive game is really not polished. Its limited.
But.........Defensively and rebounding he is durable, in his prime, and HOF bound.
Mitch is cut from the same cloth but really can't say he'll reach or come close to that.
Knick fans like most fans are emotional and "fuck Ainge", or boston for that matter is part of it.
I'll say the trade obviously made sense for Minny given where they are right now. For knick fans its really not our cross to bear or consider.
As for the DM and the price asking? Its at his discretion to his value and knicks to pay.
Philc1 wrote:The bar was already there. You don’t make stupid trades just to get big names. Besides the Eddy Curry disaster there was also the fiasco the nets had with Garnett a few years backI want Mitchell but Ainge can go f himself. 6x first round picks plus our entire young core minus RJ b tch please
I believe once KD is traded for a package less than the Gobert trade, the bar will be set back to its normal level. The Gobert trade was a timing thing. Right when Utah wanted to trade Gobert, Minny was starving for a missing link on the defensive end. Somebody that can help Cat on the defensive end, without taking away Cats offensive attempts. So Gobert might be an over pay for some, but he could be exactly what Minny needed.
The KD trade (if it happens) will determine how much this "so called" trading bar has changed. Personally I don't think this trade changed the NBA. But I do believe Danny Ainge is trying to change the NBA with his crazy trade demands.
blkexec wrote:Philc1 wrote:The bar was already there. You don’t make stupid trades just to get big names. Besides the Eddy Curry disaster there was also the fiasco the nets had with Garnett a few years backI want Mitchell but Ainge can go f himself. 6x first round picks plus our entire young core minus RJ b tch please
I believe once KD is traded for a package less than the Gobert trade, the bar will be set back to its normal level. The Gobert trade was a timing thing. Right when Utah wanted to trade Gobert, Minny was starving for a missing link on the defensive end. Somebody that can help Cat on the defensive end, without taking away Cats offensive attempts. So Gobert might be an over pay for some, but he could be exactly what Minny needed.
The KD trade (if it happens) will determine how much this "so called" trading bar has changed. Personally I don't think this trade changed the NBA. But I do believe Danny Ainge is trying to change the NBA with his crazy trade demands.
Ainge is a Ganaf. Don’t trade with him.