Knicks · Fire Thibs (page 13)
Nalod wrote:fishmike wrote:Uptown wrote:I am no Thibs apologist, but the Knicks are 2.5 games out of 5th place in the east. As delusional as this may or may not sound, the goal for this team to compete for a playoff/play-in spot. Barring a catastrophic collapse, Thibs will be here for the rest of season and probably next year as well. He's a good coach, but his relationship with the team's president doesn't hurt....
exactly... no need to be an apologist. Thibs is a B+ coach. The guys play hard. We have one consistent scorer in the whole rotation. Our best players are Brunson, Randle and Barret. They are surrounded with a bunch of guys who are very young.It's gonna be painful to watch sometimes. That's how young players grow. I mean we are Brunson/Randle/RJ every night and hope the kids help. The roster isnt shit but it clearly lacks difference making talent and I think our path to acquire that is as promising as its been for a couple decades.
...As for the bold that's a positive. It's the closest we have been to having a HC and FO on the same page. They HAVE to be.
Realistically we are a bad 3 weeks from joining the bottom dwellers. We saw that last year and the only reason I can say we should trend up is we are young and cant shoot any worse. Its clear they are pretty committed and believe in Grimes. I mean great. Look at Anfernee Simmons. The guy's amazing. Portland just had to wait a few years you know... while he went from being a good college player to a good NBA player
Would anyone be surprised if some of these guys turned positive corners and elevated the team? There's a lot of options... this is time to be patient.
Barrett is third youngest player. Two months older than Deuce.
Mitch is 5 months older than Sims.
Obi is a month older than Mitch. he'll be 25 March 4th.
Cam is 5th youngest.
Fish and Nolads………I will give you guys credit. You’ve been consistently optimistic since I joined this forum. And you know what else been consistent? Our mediocrity.
blkexec wrote:Nalod wrote:fishmike wrote:Uptown wrote:I am no Thibs apologist, but the Knicks are 2.5 games out of 5th place in the east. As delusional as this may or may not sound, the goal for this team to compete for a playoff/play-in spot. Barring a catastrophic collapse, Thibs will be here for the rest of season and probably next year as well. He's a good coach, but his relationship with the team's president doesn't hurt....
exactly... no need to be an apologist. Thibs is a B+ coach. The guys play hard. We have one consistent scorer in the whole rotation. Our best players are Brunson, Randle and Barret. They are surrounded with a bunch of guys who are very young.It's gonna be painful to watch sometimes. That's how young players grow. I mean we are Brunson/Randle/RJ every night and hope the kids help. The roster isnt shit but it clearly lacks difference making talent and I think our path to acquire that is as promising as its been for a couple decades.
...As for the bold that's a positive. It's the closest we have been to having a HC and FO on the same page. They HAVE to be.
Realistically we are a bad 3 weeks from joining the bottom dwellers. We saw that last year and the only reason I can say we should trend up is we are young and cant shoot any worse. Its clear they are pretty committed and believe in Grimes. I mean great. Look at Anfernee Simmons. The guy's amazing. Portland just had to wait a few years you know... while he went from being a good college player to a good NBA player
Would anyone be surprised if some of these guys turned positive corners and elevated the team? There's a lot of options... this is time to be patient.
Barrett is third youngest player. Two months older than Deuce.
Mitch is 5 months older than Sims.
Obi is a month older than Mitch. he'll be 25 March 4th.
Cam is 5th youngest.Fish and Nolads………I will give you guys credit. You’ve been consistently optimistic since I joined this forum. And you know what else been consistent? Our mediocrity.
Mediocrity would be an improvement. For the better part of the last 20 years we are less than. 3 winning seasons in last 20.
Nalod wrote:blkexec wrote:Nalod wrote:fishmike wrote:Uptown wrote:I am no Thibs apologist, but the Knicks are 2.5 games out of 5th place in the east. As delusional as this may or may not sound, the goal for this team to compete for a playoff/play-in spot. Barring a catastrophic collapse, Thibs will be here for the rest of season and probably next year as well. He's a good coach, but his relationship with the team's president doesn't hurt....
exactly... no need to be an apologist. Thibs is a B+ coach. The guys play hard. We have one consistent scorer in the whole rotation. Our best players are Brunson, Randle and Barret. They are surrounded with a bunch of guys who are very young.It's gonna be painful to watch sometimes. That's how young players grow. I mean we are Brunson/Randle/RJ every night and hope the kids help. The roster isnt shit but it clearly lacks difference making talent and I think our path to acquire that is as promising as its been for a couple decades.
...As for the bold that's a positive. It's the closest we have been to having a HC and FO on the same page. They HAVE to be.
Realistically we are a bad 3 weeks from joining the bottom dwellers. We saw that last year and the only reason I can say we should trend up is we are young and cant shoot any worse. Its clear they are pretty committed and believe in Grimes. I mean great. Look at Anfernee Simmons. The guy's amazing. Portland just had to wait a few years you know... while he went from being a good college player to a good NBA player
Would anyone be surprised if some of these guys turned positive corners and elevated the team? There's a lot of options... this is time to be patient.
Barrett is third youngest player. Two months older than Deuce.
Mitch is 5 months older than Sims.
Obi is a month older than Mitch. he'll be 25 March 4th.
Cam is 5th youngest.Fish and Nolads………I will give you guys credit. You’ve been consistently optimistic since I joined this forum. And you know what else been consistent? Our mediocrity.
Mediocrity would be an improvement. For the better part of the last 20 years we are less than. 3 winning seasons in last 20.
Facts
blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bullshit reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's noneYou are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.
Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨
As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable" 
Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.
fishmike wrote:blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bullshit reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's noneYou are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.
Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨
As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"
Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.
The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.
I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.
EwingsGlass wrote:Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been sayingfishmike wrote:blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bullshit reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's noneYou are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.
Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨
As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"
Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.
The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.
well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan
Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs
fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been sayingfishmike wrote:blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bullshit reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's noneYou are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.
Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨
As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"
Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.
The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.
well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan
Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs
“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.
I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.
Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?
EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been sayingfishmike wrote:blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bullshit reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's noneYou are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.
Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨
As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"
Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.
The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.
well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan
Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs
“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.
I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.
Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?
You are not looking for progress, you are looking for reasons to not like what you see.
I see a ton of progress. If you can't see it, ask about it.
And how the heck do you not see the capability of Thibs being able to coach defense? 2 years ago, Knicks defensive efficiency was top 5. Last year 11. Both years had some not good defenders in Randle and RJ and a young Mitch. Last year hosted Fournier and Kemba with Mitch taking 50 games to get in shape and the defense was near top 10.
Folks have fixated on the Knicks 3point line defense on the weak side. All teams give up something, no scheme is good enough or everyone would be using it and defenses would be much better. It's a nice footnote but nothing conclusive when you KNOW you have Jalen and RJ and Randle, those guys suck at D. But suddenly when Grimes and IQ and McBride or Cam are playing, mostly problem solved. You get that right?
If you want to find something you don't like, you will find it with any team. ANY team. For a lot of different aspects of the team. It ain't particular to the Knicks, we just have the media and social media that don't really have much better to do than repeating the same things over and over for us to consume and most of it is pretty thin.
Fucking GS is playing 1 game better than the Knicks. They have like 3 HOF guys and 2 other all stars they rotate around. Plus a #2 and #6 pick on their team. That's talent and by any relative measuring stick the Knicks are playing lights out compared to the talent on that team.
Atlanta adds an all star, all defensive team guy to their loaded team... and they suck in comparison to the Knicks if you take in talent spectrum.
Teams do take time to sort things out.
Some of you need to level-set your expectations and actually pay attention to development, cause you are ignoring it or completely missing it.
Lots of fans complain that Knicks would never rebuild the right way and never develop young players. It's literally happening.
Go look up the offensive efficiently rating for all teams. Knicks are middle of the pack in NBA. They are also near bottom quarter in terms of talent. The teams above the Knicks? All with a ton more talent. Something right is happening with the Knicks offensively. IMHO the Knicks are emphasizing it this year, and this is not me sniffing something out that is hidden, the team has literally told us.
The often suggested Thibs on the hot seat every other loss by media or fans is some of the dumbest lines of thought process I've seen in a long time.
martin wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been sayingfishmike wrote:blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bullshit reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's noneYou are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.
Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨
As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"
Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.
The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.
well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan
Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs
“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.
I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.
Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?
You are not looking for progress, you are looking for reasons to not like what you see.
I see a ton of progress. If you can't see it, ask about it.
And how the heck do you not see the capability of Thibs being able to coach defense? 2 years ago, Knicks defensive efficiency was top 5. Last year 11. Both years had some not good defenders in Randle and RJ and a young Mitch. Last year hosted Fournier and Kemba with Mitch taking 50 games to get in shape and the defense was near top 10.
Folks have fixated on the Knicks 3point line defense on the weak side. All teams give up something, no scheme is good enough or everyone would be using it and defenses would be much better. It's a nice footnote but nothing conclusive when you KNOW you have Jalen and RJ and Randle, those guys suck at D. But suddenly when Grimes and IQ and McBride or Cam are playing, mostly problem solved. You get that right?
If you want to find something you don't like, you will find it with any team. ANY team. For a lot of different aspects of the team. It ain't particular to the Knicks, we just have the media and social media that don't really have much better to do than repeating the same things over and over for us to consume and most of it is pretty thin.
Fucking GS is playing 1 game better than the Knicks. They have like 3 HOF guys and 2 other all stars they rotate around. Plus a #2 and #6 pick on their team. That's talent and by any relative measuring stick the Knicks are playing lights out compared to the talent on that team.
Atlanta adds an all star, all defensive team guy to their loaded team... and they suck in comparison to the Knicks if you take in talent spectrum.
Teams do take time to sort things out.
Some of you need to level-set your expectations and actually pay attention to development, cause you are ignoring it or completely missing it.
Lots of fans complain that Knicks would never rebuild the right way and never develop young players. It's literally happening.
Go look up the offensive efficiently rating for all teams. Knicks are middle of the pack in NBA. They are also near bottom quarter in terms of talent. The teams above the Knicks? All with a ton more talent. Something right is happening with the Knicks offensively. IMHO the Knicks are emphasizing it this year, and this is not me sniffing something out that is hidden, the team has literally told us.
The often suggested Thibs on the hot seat every other loss by media or fans is some of the dumbest lines of thought process I've seen in a long time.
Eloquently put.
Progress is happening, despite the efforts of many fans and media to derail it through stupidity and malice. The media are snakes but with the fans it's like kids who want to ear ice cream all day and play in traffic and have temper tantrums.
EwingsGlass wrote:franco12 wrote:foosballnick wrote:For all the fire Thibs and tank guys ....ask yourself this question. Are you willong to be the Detroit Pistons for the next 3 years......because thats what the upside of a strip down rebuild looks like. There may be a longer term rainbow coming for the Pistons....but it also requires multi year patience that many Knicks fans don't seem to have.not everyone want's a tear down. I'm worried the guys are tuning out Thibs, their development is being stunted and he is not holding Randle as accountable as he should.
I'd be happy with a trade of Randle - but even here - I think a new coach might be better able to get him in line.
And then you see what you have. Was it the coach, or are the players just bad? In which case, what are we trying to build with them?
Franco - I think we are of a similar opinion. I may be arguing more fervently. I’m closer to “something needs to change” but I think your point is on target that coach isn’t connecting to the players.
Foosballnick, In terms of Detroit tanking, I mean, look at Philly and Minnesota. Can’t promise you win the lottery and the pick pans out, but you get Embiid you are a contender. Got to kiss a lot of frogs though. It’s easier for me to rationalize kissing rookie frogs than watching this team with the hope they magically change their style. I don’t see the impetus for change.
I don’t know if I really have the stomach to watch a Detroit level tank, but I mean, have the last 20
Years been much better?
Thibs Kissed RJ and he's turned into Kevin Knox
Which is actually I think a clever way to say that I was a big RJ fan when we drafted. His first, wow, we have a big time star - he made buckets, he got into the lane almost at will.
And that is gone in year four and I am wanting to know WTF happened!
We just signed him for $120m and I am seeing a player I want off the roster.
Give this roster a new voice - and we may have the same or worse result. But then we'll know.
And we can ship them all out, because we can't even be a 500 level team with some of these guys on the roster.
Build around Brunson.
I'd love to see Brunson running with some tall 3&d guys - not that we have them - but if Cam can come along, maybe he is a keeper, Mitch, Obi, Grimes and IQ.
That might be a summer league talent level line up, but they will outperform instead of what we have which is under performance.
KnickDanger wrote:martin wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been sayingfishmike wrote:blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bullshit reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's noneYou are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.
Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨
As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"
Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.
The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.
well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan
Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs
“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.
I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.
Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?
You are not looking for progress, you are looking for reasons to not like what you see.
I see a ton of progress. If you can't see it, ask about it.
And how the heck do you not see the capability of Thibs being able to coach defense? 2 years ago, Knicks defensive efficiency was top 5. Last year 11. Both years had some not good defenders in Randle and RJ and a young Mitch. Last year hosted Fournier and Kemba with Mitch taking 50 games to get in shape and the defense was near top 10.
Folks have fixated on the Knicks 3point line defense on the weak side. All teams give up something, no scheme is good enough or everyone would be using it and defenses would be much better. It's a nice footnote but nothing conclusive when you KNOW you have Jalen and RJ and Randle, those guys suck at D. But suddenly when Grimes and IQ and McBride or Cam are playing, mostly problem solved. You get that right?
If you want to find something you don't like, you will find it with any team. ANY team. For a lot of different aspects of the team. It ain't particular to the Knicks, we just have the media and social media that don't really have much better to do than repeating the same things over and over for us to consume and most of it is pretty thin.
Fucking GS is playing 1 game better than the Knicks. They have like 3 HOF guys and 2 other all stars they rotate around. Plus a #2 and #6 pick on their team. That's talent and by any relative measuring stick the Knicks are playing lights out compared to the talent on that team.
Atlanta adds an all star, all defensive team guy to their loaded team... and they suck in comparison to the Knicks if you take in talent spectrum.
Teams do take time to sort things out.
Some of you need to level-set your expectations and actually pay attention to development, cause you are ignoring it or completely missing it.
Lots of fans complain that Knicks would never rebuild the right way and never develop young players. It's literally happening.
Go look up the offensive efficiently rating for all teams. Knicks are middle of the pack in NBA. They are also near bottom quarter in terms of talent. The teams above the Knicks? All with a ton more talent. Something right is happening with the Knicks offensively. IMHO the Knicks are emphasizing it this year, and this is not me sniffing something out that is hidden, the team has literally told us.
The often suggested Thibs on the hot seat every other loss by media or fans is some of the dumbest lines of thought process I've seen in a long time.
Eloquently put.Progress is happening, despite the efforts of many fans and media to derail it through stupidity and malice. The media are snakes but with the fans it's like kids who want to ear ice cream all day and play in traffic and have temper tantrums.
1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.
2) GS will be fine. Your records are outdated (its two games!), but the GSW metrics are in line with a team that is better than their record.
3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.
4) The stats match what I am seeing on the court. And the player we were proud of for making good shot decisions early in the season, is doing it less often now. That sweet looking shot chart got a lot lighter blue in some bad areas.https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/julius-... Fool me once... but let's put it on Randle instead. If we are praising Thibs for the new idea of better shots, you gotta give him the blame too.
5) Won't talk about the Hawks. Nothing to do with this argument. They should also fall from grace given their metrics. Them sucking (with a 13-11 record) doesn't make us any better. Unless we beat them tomorrow...but I agree. Atlanta sucks.
6) Teams do take time to sort things out. This is 2.25 seasons in to Thibs tenure. I'm seeing a lot of the same patterning. At least this year he is giving other lineups a look. He's growing as a coach. But I don't know what magical change we are waiting for with this team. What changes next year versus this with what we have. What personnel do you add to this team that makes it a contender?
7) I am paying pretty damn close attention to development. Mostly cause I love this team. Guys like McBride and Sims were on my earliest "who would you draft" lists. Huge fans. I put Reddish down as the guy I expected to outperform. I proposed trades for him that well pre-date the actual trade. I singled him out as a potential defensive beast that could be had for cheap. I thought he would beat out Fournier in training camp for the starting nod. I don't expect to win every game, but I expect a Thibodeau coached team to play the "right" way. I don't believe this is occurring - at least not on offense. And its either cause the players aren't listening to Thibs or his offensive schemes aren't that effective in the modern NBA. I don't see anything other than iso-ball.
8) The "rebuild the right way" and "develop young players" is happening. I just don't see anything to show that it is because of Thibs and not in spite of Thibs. I don't see a system of basketball that enables any young players strengths. More of an iso-ball fight for usage with a selfish twinge. They don't really pass the ball. That's the most telling issue. Modern NBA requires 3 point shooting, in my opinion. And we are the worst at it. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/shots-ge... Run a play or two for Robinson. Best finisher in the league and the guy is an afterthought. He's got 58 offensive rebounds this season and 59 shot attempts. I don't think I have ever seen a Randle to Robinson assist.
9) Not sure which offensive efficiency stat you are referring to. I use eFG (same link as above) and ours is really bad. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... I think the impressions of their "changes" to the offense are more about Randle and are about a month old. He's back to the same old nonsense and he has free reign.
10) Thing is, I don't think the Knicks are in the bottom quarter of talent. I think the systems do not accentuate these players strengths and so they look worse than they are. I think Toronto has worse players but a better coach, for instance. If Barrett has Quin Snyder instead of the parade of coaches we have, does he look more like Donovan Mitchell? QS coaches both sides of the ball. If Quin would take the Knicks job, I would make that move in a nano-second.
EwingsGlass wrote:KnickDanger wrote:martin wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been sayingfishmike wrote:blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bullshit reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's noneYou are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.
Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨
As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"
Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.
The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.
well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan
Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs
“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.
I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.
Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?
You are not looking for progress, you are looking for reasons to not like what you see.
I see a ton of progress. If you can't see it, ask about it.
And how the heck do you not see the capability of Thibs being able to coach defense? 2 years ago, Knicks defensive efficiency was top 5. Last year 11. Both years had some not good defenders in Randle and RJ and a young Mitch. Last year hosted Fournier and Kemba with Mitch taking 50 games to get in shape and the defense was near top 10.
Folks have fixated on the Knicks 3point line defense on the weak side. All teams give up something, no scheme is good enough or everyone would be using it and defenses would be much better. It's a nice footnote but nothing conclusive when you KNOW you have Jalen and RJ and Randle, those guys suck at D. But suddenly when Grimes and IQ and McBride or Cam are playing, mostly problem solved. You get that right?
If you want to find something you don't like, you will find it with any team. ANY team. For a lot of different aspects of the team. It ain't particular to the Knicks, we just have the media and social media that don't really have much better to do than repeating the same things over and over for us to consume and most of it is pretty thin.
Fucking GS is playing 1 game better than the Knicks. They have like 3 HOF guys and 2 other all stars they rotate around. Plus a #2 and #6 pick on their team. That's talent and by any relative measuring stick the Knicks are playing lights out compared to the talent on that team.
Atlanta adds an all star, all defensive team guy to their loaded team... and they suck in comparison to the Knicks if you take in talent spectrum.
Teams do take time to sort things out.
Some of you need to level-set your expectations and actually pay attention to development, cause you are ignoring it or completely missing it.
Lots of fans complain that Knicks would never rebuild the right way and never develop young players. It's literally happening.
Go look up the offensive efficiently rating for all teams. Knicks are middle of the pack in NBA. They are also near bottom quarter in terms of talent. The teams above the Knicks? All with a ton more talent. Something right is happening with the Knicks offensively. IMHO the Knicks are emphasizing it this year, and this is not me sniffing something out that is hidden, the team has literally told us.
The often suggested Thibs on the hot seat every other loss by media or fans is some of the dumbest lines of thought process I've seen in a long time.
Eloquently put.Progress is happening, despite the efforts of many fans and media to derail it through stupidity and malice. The media are snakes but with the fans it's like kids who want to ear ice cream all day and play in traffic and have temper tantrums.
1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.
2) GS will be fine. Your records are outdated (its two games!), but the GSW metrics are in line with a team that is better than their record.
3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.
4) The stats match what I am seeing on the court. And the player we were proud of for making good shot decisions early in the season, is doing it less often now. That sweet looking shot chart got a lot lighter blue in some bad areas.https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/julius-... Fool me once... but let's put it on Randle instead. If we are praising Thibs for the new idea of better shots, you gotta give him the blame too.
5) Won't talk about the Hawks. Nothing to do with this argument. They should also fall from grace given their metrics. Them sucking (with a 13-11 record) doesn't make us any better. Unless we beat them tomorrow...but I agree. Atlanta sucks.
6) Teams do take time to sort things out. This is 2.25 seasons in to Thibs tenure. I'm seeing a lot of the same patterning. At least this year he is giving other lineups a look. He's growing as a coach. But I don't know what magical change we are waiting for with this team. What changes next year versus this with what we have. What personnel do you add to this team that makes it a contender?
7) I am paying pretty damn close attention to development. Mostly cause I love this team. Guys like McBride and Sims were on my earliest "who would you draft" lists. Huge fans. I put Reddish down as the guy I expected to outperform. I proposed trades for him that well pre-date the actual trade. I singled him out as a potential defensive beast that could be had for cheap. I thought he would beat out Fournier in training camp for the starting nod. I don't expect to win every game, but I expect a Thibodeau coached team to play the "right" way. I don't believe this is occurring - at least not on offense. And its either cause the players aren't listening to Thibs or his offensive schemes aren't that effective in the modern NBA. I don't see anything other than iso-ball.
8) The "rebuild the right way" and "develop young players" is happening. I just don't see anything to show that it is because of Thibs and not in spite of Thibs. I don't see a system of basketball that enables any young players strengths. More of an iso-ball fight for usage with a selfish twinge. They don't really pass the ball. That's the most telling issue. Modern NBA requires 3 point shooting, in my opinion. And we are the worst at it. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/shots-ge... Run a play or two for Robinson. Best finisher in the league and the guy is an afterthought. He's got 58 offensive rebounds this season and 59 shot attempts. I don't think I have ever seen a Randle to Robinson assist.
9) Not sure which offensive efficiency stat you are referring to. I use eFG (same link as above) and ours is really bad. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... I think the impressions of their "changes" to the offense are more about Randle and are about a month old. He's back to the same old nonsense and he has free reign.
10) Thing is, I don't think the Knicks are in the bottom quarter of talent. I think the systems do not accentuate these players strengths and so they look worse than they are. I think Toronto has worse players but a better coach, for instance. If Barrett has Quin Snyder instead of the parade of coaches we have, does he look more like Donovan Mitchell? QS coaches both sides of the ball. If Quin would take the Knicks job, I would make that move in a nano-second.
You are not looking for development. You are looking to find ways to not look for it or deny it or find flaws with it, there is a big difference. Again, you can do the above with every team and it's trying to find flaws and there are a ton out there. Once you get over that hump, if you'd like to talk about it, let me know.
It starts with a hard look at the level of talent the Knicks have to work with and goes from there.
I mean, are you in for a brutal look at what the team is trying to do versus what they are capable of executing given their talent level and the balance between the two?