Knicks · Fire Thibs (page 14)

martin @ 12/7/2022 9:14 AM
EwingsGlass wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
fishmike wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
fishmike wrote:
blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?

You are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.

Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨

no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bullshit reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's none

As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"

Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.

The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.

I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.

Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been saying

well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan

Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs

“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.

I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.

Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?

You are not looking for progress, you are looking for reasons to not like what you see.

I see a ton of progress. If you can't see it, ask about it.

And how the heck do you not see the capability of Thibs being able to coach defense? 2 years ago, Knicks defensive efficiency was top 5. Last year 11. Both years had some not good defenders in Randle and RJ and a young Mitch. Last year hosted Fournier and Kemba with Mitch taking 50 games to get in shape and the defense was near top 10.

Folks have fixated on the Knicks 3point line defense on the weak side. All teams give up something, no scheme is good enough or everyone would be using it and defenses would be much better. It's a nice footnote but nothing conclusive when you KNOW you have Jalen and RJ and Randle, those guys suck at D. But suddenly when Grimes and IQ and McBride or Cam are playing, mostly problem solved. You get that right?

If you want to find something you don't like, you will find it with any team. ANY team. For a lot of different aspects of the team. It ain't particular to the Knicks, we just have the media and social media that don't really have much better to do than repeating the same things over and over for us to consume and most of it is pretty thin.

Fucking GS is playing 1 game better than the Knicks. They have like 3 HOF guys and 2 other all stars they rotate around. Plus a #2 and #6 pick on their team. That's talent and by any relative measuring stick the Knicks are playing lights out compared to the talent on that team.

Atlanta adds an all star, all defensive team guy to their loaded team... and they suck in comparison to the Knicks if you take in talent spectrum.

Teams do take time to sort things out.

Some of you need to level-set your expectations and actually pay attention to development, cause you are ignoring it or completely missing it.

Lots of fans complain that Knicks would never rebuild the right way and never develop young players. It's literally happening.

Go look up the offensive efficiently rating for all teams. Knicks are middle of the pack in NBA. They are also near bottom quarter in terms of talent. The teams above the Knicks? All with a ton more talent. Something right is happening with the Knicks offensively. IMHO the Knicks are emphasizing it this year, and this is not me sniffing something out that is hidden, the team has literally told us.

The often suggested Thibs on the hot seat every other loss by media or fans is some of the dumbest lines of thought process I've seen in a long time.


Eloquently put.

Progress is happening, despite the efforts of many fans and media to derail it through stupidity and malice. The media are snakes but with the fans it's like kids who want to ear ice cream all day and play in traffic and have temper tantrums.

1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.

2) GS will be fine. Your records are outdated (its two games!), but the GSW metrics are in line with a team that is better than their record.

3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.

4) The stats match what I am seeing on the court. And the player we were proud of for making good shot decisions early in the season, is doing it less often now. That sweet looking shot chart got a lot lighter blue in some bad areas.https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/julius-... Fool me once... but let's put it on Randle instead. If we are praising Thibs for the new idea of better shots, you gotta give him the blame too.

5) Won't talk about the Hawks. Nothing to do with this argument. They should also fall from grace given their metrics. Them sucking (with a 13-11 record) doesn't make us any better. Unless we beat them tomorrow...but I agree. Atlanta sucks.

6) Teams do take time to sort things out. This is 2.25 seasons in to Thibs tenure. I'm seeing a lot of the same patterning. At least this year he is giving other lineups a look. He's growing as a coach. But I don't know what magical change we are waiting for with this team. What changes next year versus this with what we have. What personnel do you add to this team that makes it a contender?

7) I am paying pretty damn close attention to development. Mostly cause I love this team. Guys like McBride and Sims were on my earliest "who would you draft" lists. Huge fans. I put Reddish down as the guy I expected to outperform. I proposed trades for him that well pre-date the actual trade. I singled him out as a potential defensive beast that could be had for cheap. I thought he would beat out Fournier in training camp for the starting nod. I don't expect to win every game, but I expect a Thibodeau coached team to play the "right" way. I don't believe this is occurring - at least not on offense. And its either cause the players aren't listening to Thibs or his offensive schemes aren't that effective in the modern NBA. I don't see anything other than iso-ball.

8) The "rebuild the right way" and "develop young players" is happening. I just don't see anything to show that it is because of Thibs and not in spite of Thibs. I don't see a system of basketball that enables any young players strengths. More of an iso-ball fight for usage with a selfish twinge. They don't really pass the ball. That's the most telling issue. Modern NBA requires 3 point shooting, in my opinion. And we are the worst at it. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/shots-ge... Run a play or two for Robinson. Best finisher in the league and the guy is an afterthought. He's got 58 offensive rebounds this season and 59 shot attempts. I don't think I have ever seen a Randle to Robinson assist.

9) Not sure which offensive efficiency stat you are referring to. I use eFG (same link as above) and ours is really bad. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... I think the impressions of their "changes" to the offense are more about Randle and are about a month old. He's back to the same old nonsense and he has free reign.

10) Thing is, I don't think the Knicks are in the bottom quarter of talent. I think the systems do not accentuate these players strengths and so they look worse than they are. I think Toronto has worse players but a better coach, for instance. If Barrett has Quin Snyder instead of the parade of coaches we have, does he look more like Donovan Mitchell? QS coaches both sides of the ball. If Quin would take the Knicks job, I would make that move in a nano-second.

You are not looking for development. You are looking to find ways to not look for it or deny it or find flaws with it, there is a big difference. Again, you can do the above with every team and it's trying to find flaws and there are a ton out there. Once you get over that hump, if you'd like to talk about it, let me know.

It starts with a hard look at the level of talent the Knicks have to work with and goes from there.

I mean, are you in for a brutal look at what the team is trying to do versus what they are capable of executing given their talent level and the balance between the two?

martin @ 12/7/2022 10:04 AM
San Antonio Spurs have some of the worst Defensive and Offensive Efficiencies in the league this year. Is it such that Greg Pop's schemes are outdated? Is he a bad coach? Or is it just a talent thing?

Kerr's teams over the past years have had top notch defenses, this year, not so much. Are his schemes outdated and probably should be fired? His record sucks too for having 3 HOFers on team with a side of a 4th all star. Fire him?

wargames @ 12/7/2022 10:12 AM
martin wrote:San Antonio Spurs have some of the worst Defensive and Offensive Efficiencies in the league this year. Is it such that Greg Pop's schemes are outdated? Is he a bad coach? Or is it just a talent thing?

Kerr's teams over the past years have had top notch defenses, this year, not so much. Are his schemes outdated and probably should be fired? His record sucks too for having 3 HOFers on team with a side of a 4th all star. Fire him?


Your comparing down years of two of the best coaches in NBA history to the increasing lower expectations that is Thibs. Also Pop should retire, unfortunately his wife died a few years ago and the Spurs seem to be all he has. As for Kerr they won a championship last year.

Thibs is neither of those men and doesn’t deserve the passes that they get from their organizations.

martin @ 12/7/2022 10:17 AM
wargames wrote:
martin wrote:San Antonio Spurs have some of the worst Defensive and Offensive Efficiencies in the league this year. Is it such that Greg Pop's schemes are outdated? Is he a bad coach? Or is it just a talent thing?

Kerr's teams over the past years have had top notch defenses, this year, not so much. Are his schemes outdated and probably should be fired? His record sucks too for having 3 HOFers on team with a side of a 4th all star. Fire him?


Your comparing down years of two of the best coaches in NBA history to the increasing lower expectations that is Thibs. Also Pop should retire, unfortunately his wife died a few years ago and the Spurs seem to be all he has. As for Kerr they won a championship last year.

Thibs is neither of those men and doesn’t deserve the passes that they get from their organizations.

I forgot how long coaches get passes for and what they have to do to get those passes.

Or maybe it's just the situation of their talent.

KnickDanger @ 12/7/2022 10:30 AM
martin wrote:
wargames wrote:
martin wrote:San Antonio Spurs have some of the worst Defensive and Offensive Efficiencies in the league this year. Is it such that Greg Pop's schemes are outdated? Is he a bad coach? Or is it just a talent thing?

Kerr's teams over the past years have had top notch defenses, this year, not so much. Are his schemes outdated and probably should be fired? His record sucks too for having 3 HOFers on team with a side of a 4th all star. Fire him?


Your comparing down years of two of the best coaches in NBA history to the increasing lower expectations that is Thibs. Also Pop should retire, unfortunately his wife died a few years ago and the Spurs seem to be all he has. As for Kerr they won a championship last year.

Thibs is neither of those men and doesn’t deserve the passes that they get from their organizations.

I forgot how long coaches get passes for and what they have to do to get those passes.

Or maybe it's just the situation of their talent.

Rule of thumb: Knicks = No Passes.

GustavBahler @ 12/7/2022 10:32 AM
Can you explain why Thibs isnt encouraging more PnRs with Obi? Overall, I dont see an attention to detail on the court, that I would expect from a Thibs coached team. Part of it might be all the changes to the lineup. Or maybe Thibs is off his game as a coach. That happens.

Athletes go on runs, coaches, execs, you name it. Also true that many good coaches reach a point where the players arent buying in to the degree they used to.

Which one is it? Is it coaching? The level of talent on the roster? A combination of the two? Thats what we should know by the end of the season. Which is a big reason why I dont want to see Thibs fired during the season. The best way to get an answer to these questions is to let the season play out. And for the FO to respond accordingly.

martin wrote:
wargames wrote:
martin wrote:San Antonio Spurs have some of the worst Defensive and Offensive Efficiencies in the league this year. Is it such that Greg Pop's schemes are outdated? Is he a bad coach? Or is it just a talent thing?

Kerr's teams over the past years have had top notch defenses, this year, not so much. Are his schemes outdated and probably should be fired? His record sucks too for having 3 HOFers on team with a side of a 4th all star. Fire him?


Your comparing down years of two of the best coaches in NBA history to the increasing lower expectations that is Thibs. Also Pop should retire, unfortunately his wife died a few years ago and the Spurs seem to be all he has. As for Kerr they won a championship last year.

Thibs is neither of those men and doesn’t deserve the passes that they get from their organizations.

I forgot how long coaches get passes for and what they have to do to get those passes.

Or maybe it's just the situation of their talent.

EwingsGlass @ 12/7/2022 11:11 AM
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
fishmike wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
fishmike wrote:
blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?

You are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.

Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨

no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bullshit reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's none

As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"

Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.

The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.

I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.

Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been saying

well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan

Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs

“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.

I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.

Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?

You are not looking for progress, you are looking for reasons to not like what you see.

I see a ton of progress. If you can't see it, ask about it.

And how the heck do you not see the capability of Thibs being able to coach defense? 2 years ago, Knicks defensive efficiency was top 5. Last year 11. Both years had some not good defenders in Randle and RJ and a young Mitch. Last year hosted Fournier and Kemba with Mitch taking 50 games to get in shape and the defense was near top 10.

Folks have fixated on the Knicks 3point line defense on the weak side. All teams give up something, no scheme is good enough or everyone would be using it and defenses would be much better. It's a nice footnote but nothing conclusive when you KNOW you have Jalen and RJ and Randle, those guys suck at D. But suddenly when Grimes and IQ and McBride or Cam are playing, mostly problem solved. You get that right?

If you want to find something you don't like, you will find it with any team. ANY team. For a lot of different aspects of the team. It ain't particular to the Knicks, we just have the media and social media that don't really have much better to do than repeating the same things over and over for us to consume and most of it is pretty thin.

Fucking GS is playing 1 game better than the Knicks. They have like 3 HOF guys and 2 other all stars they rotate around. Plus a #2 and #6 pick on their team. That's talent and by any relative measuring stick the Knicks are playing lights out compared to the talent on that team.

Atlanta adds an all star, all defensive team guy to their loaded team... and they suck in comparison to the Knicks if you take in talent spectrum.

Teams do take time to sort things out.

Some of you need to level-set your expectations and actually pay attention to development, cause you are ignoring it or completely missing it.

Lots of fans complain that Knicks would never rebuild the right way and never develop young players. It's literally happening.

Go look up the offensive efficiently rating for all teams. Knicks are middle of the pack in NBA. They are also near bottom quarter in terms of talent. The teams above the Knicks? All with a ton more talent. Something right is happening with the Knicks offensively. IMHO the Knicks are emphasizing it this year, and this is not me sniffing something out that is hidden, the team has literally told us.

The often suggested Thibs on the hot seat every other loss by media or fans is some of the dumbest lines of thought process I've seen in a long time.


Eloquently put.

Progress is happening, despite the efforts of many fans and media to derail it through stupidity and malice. The media are snakes but with the fans it's like kids who want to ear ice cream all day and play in traffic and have temper tantrums.

1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.

2) GS will be fine. Your records are outdated (its two games!), but the GSW metrics are in line with a team that is better than their record.

3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.

4) The stats match what I am seeing on the court. And the player we were proud of for making good shot decisions early in the season, is doing it less often now. That sweet looking shot chart got a lot lighter blue in some bad areas.https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/julius-... Fool me once... but let's put it on Randle instead. If we are praising Thibs for the new idea of better shots, you gotta give him the blame too.

5) Won't talk about the Hawks. Nothing to do with this argument. They should also fall from grace given their metrics. Them sucking (with a 13-11 record) doesn't make us any better. Unless we beat them tomorrow...but I agree. Atlanta sucks.

6) Teams do take time to sort things out. This is 2.25 seasons in to Thibs tenure. I'm seeing a lot of the same patterning. At least this year he is giving other lineups a look. He's growing as a coach. But I don't know what magical change we are waiting for with this team. What changes next year versus this with what we have. What personnel do you add to this team that makes it a contender?

7) I am paying pretty damn close attention to development. Mostly cause I love this team. Guys like McBride and Sims were on my earliest "who would you draft" lists. Huge fans. I put Reddish down as the guy I expected to outperform. I proposed trades for him that well pre-date the actual trade. I singled him out as a potential defensive beast that could be had for cheap. I thought he would beat out Fournier in training camp for the starting nod. I don't expect to win every game, but I expect a Thibodeau coached team to play the "right" way. I don't believe this is occurring - at least not on offense. And its either cause the players aren't listening to Thibs or his offensive schemes aren't that effective in the modern NBA. I don't see anything other than iso-ball.

8) The "rebuild the right way" and "develop young players" is happening. I just don't see anything to show that it is because of Thibs and not in spite of Thibs. I don't see a system of basketball that enables any young players strengths. More of an iso-ball fight for usage with a selfish twinge. They don't really pass the ball. That's the most telling issue. Modern NBA requires 3 point shooting, in my opinion. And we are the worst at it. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/shots-ge... Run a play or two for Robinson. Best finisher in the league and the guy is an afterthought. He's got 58 offensive rebounds this season and 59 shot attempts. I don't think I have ever seen a Randle to Robinson assist.

9) Not sure which offensive efficiency stat you are referring to. I use eFG (same link as above) and ours is really bad. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... I think the impressions of their "changes" to the offense are more about Randle and are about a month old. He's back to the same old nonsense and he has free reign.

10) Thing is, I don't think the Knicks are in the bottom quarter of talent. I think the systems do not accentuate these players strengths and so they look worse than they are. I think Toronto has worse players but a better coach, for instance. If Barrett has Quin Snyder instead of the parade of coaches we have, does he look more like Donovan Mitchell? QS coaches both sides of the ball. If Quin would take the Knicks job, I would make that move in a nano-second.

You are not looking for development. You are looking to find ways to not look for it or deny it or find flaws with it, there is a big difference. Again, you can do the above with every team and it's trying to find flaws and there are a ton out there. Once you get over that hump, if you'd like to talk about it, let me know.

It starts with a hard look at the level of talent the Knicks have to work with and goes from there.

I mean, are you in for a brutal look at what the team is trying to do versus what they are capable of executing given their talent level and the balance between the two?

I answered your comments with thoughtfulness and facts. I challenged your assumptions based on actual fact. You kind of responded that I am just being a nitpicker. GSW will be fine -- look at their eFG. San Antonio is clearly tanking. Their numbers are skewed.

I'll take a different approach and even agree to be open-minded about it:

In your opinion, when is it time to replace a coach?

wargames @ 12/7/2022 11:15 AM
martin wrote:
wargames wrote:
martin wrote:San Antonio Spurs have some of the worst Defensive and Offensive Efficiencies in the league this year. Is it such that Greg Pop's schemes are outdated? Is he a bad coach? Or is it just a talent thing?

Kerr's teams over the past years have had top notch defenses, this year, not so much. Are his schemes outdated and probably should be fired? His record sucks too for having 3 HOFers on team with a side of a 4th all star. Fire him?


Your comparing down years of two of the best coaches in NBA history to the increasing lower expectations that is Thibs. Also Pop should retire, unfortunately his wife died a few years ago and the Spurs seem to be all he has. As for Kerr they won a championship last year.

Thibs is neither of those men and doesn’t deserve the passes that they get from their organizations.

I forgot how long coaches get passes for and what they have to do to get those passes.

Or maybe it's just the situation of their talent.

There is not official rule, but some context should be taken into consideration. Kerr’s Warriors just won their fourth Championship last season. Pop is not just the coach of Spurs but their de facto team president and like I said for personal reasons he likely isn’t retiring. There was a lot more rumors he was a season away from quitting before his wife died than after and I am assuming part of that is the team is basically his main purpose in life. Pop should be on the hot seat but the context of who Pop is makes it unlikely.

To make a NY examaple. Let’s say Joe Torre wanted to coach the Yankees again… based on who he is, you could argue why not. Thibs isn’t in the same tier of coach to Kerr, or Pop, or a Joe Torre. He doesn’t deserve loyalty based on any accomplishment he has made here. The COTY award doesn’t hold up to his later work and he hasn’t won anything here besides that.

Now when Thibs won COTY and embarrassed himself in the playoffs against the Hawks. I said “fire him” and he clearly wasn’t and the argument then to keep him aligned with your argument for Kerr and Pop. Thib had achieved in the past, and there is no reason to think he won’t in the future. At this point as a coach we are consistently holding Thibs to lower expectations. We don’t think he is a championship coach, we don’t think he is a top tier coach, we consistently as fans can see the flaw in what he is doing. As of right now the only legitimate arguments to not fire him is he is Leon’s boy and breaking up the nepotism around the team would cause dysfunction OR it’s just easier to keep him and fire him over the summer because they want to struggle to try and make a play in.

It’s bad logic. I know Dolan’s motivations as a owner is a good enough team to justify raising ticket prices. I get that but the Knicks aren’t even on track to be a treadmill team that consistently makes the playoff. It’s just mediocrity tied usually one way or the other to the coach. Even the rumor they want to trade Fournier, Rose, Reddish, and IQ is a weaker hand because Thibs DNP three of those players leading up to the trade deadline. Honestly I think Leon has given Thibs way to much leeway and his actions contrast the actions of the FO and vice versa. For the sake of consistency alone the FO needs a coach who clearly understands he works for them and not the other way around.

fishmike @ 12/7/2022 11:46 AM
EwingsGlass wrote:
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
fishmike wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
fishmike wrote:
blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?

You are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.

Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨

no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bullshit reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's none

As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"

Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.

The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.

I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.

Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been saying

well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan

Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs

“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.

I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.

Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?

You are not looking for progress, you are looking for reasons to not like what you see.

I see a ton of progress. If you can't see it, ask about it.

And how the heck do you not see the capability of Thibs being able to coach defense? 2 years ago, Knicks defensive efficiency was top 5. Last year 11. Both years had some not good defenders in Randle and RJ and a young Mitch. Last year hosted Fournier and Kemba with Mitch taking 50 games to get in shape and the defense was near top 10.

Folks have fixated on the Knicks 3point line defense on the weak side. All teams give up something, no scheme is good enough or everyone would be using it and defenses would be much better. It's a nice footnote but nothing conclusive when you KNOW you have Jalen and RJ and Randle, those guys suck at D. But suddenly when Grimes and IQ and McBride or Cam are playing, mostly problem solved. You get that right?

If you want to find something you don't like, you will find it with any team. ANY team. For a lot of different aspects of the team. It ain't particular to the Knicks, we just have the media and social media that don't really have much better to do than repeating the same things over and over for us to consume and most of it is pretty thin.

Fucking GS is playing 1 game better than the Knicks. They have like 3 HOF guys and 2 other all stars they rotate around. Plus a #2 and #6 pick on their team. That's talent and by any relative measuring stick the Knicks are playing lights out compared to the talent on that team.

Atlanta adds an all star, all defensive team guy to their loaded team... and they suck in comparison to the Knicks if you take in talent spectrum.

Teams do take time to sort things out.

Some of you need to level-set your expectations and actually pay attention to development, cause you are ignoring it or completely missing it.

Lots of fans complain that Knicks would never rebuild the right way and never develop young players. It's literally happening.

Go look up the offensive efficiently rating for all teams. Knicks are middle of the pack in NBA. They are also near bottom quarter in terms of talent. The teams above the Knicks? All with a ton more talent. Something right is happening with the Knicks offensively. IMHO the Knicks are emphasizing it this year, and this is not me sniffing something out that is hidden, the team has literally told us.

The often suggested Thibs on the hot seat every other loss by media or fans is some of the dumbest lines of thought process I've seen in a long time.


Eloquently put.

Progress is happening, despite the efforts of many fans and media to derail it through stupidity and malice. The media are snakes but with the fans it's like kids who want to ear ice cream all day and play in traffic and have temper tantrums.

1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.

2) GS will be fine. Your records are outdated (its two games!), but the GSW metrics are in line with a team that is better than their record.

3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.

4) The stats match what I am seeing on the court. And the player we were proud of for making good shot decisions early in the season, is doing it less often now. That sweet looking shot chart got a lot lighter blue in some bad areas.https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/julius-... Fool me once... but let's put it on Randle instead. If we are praising Thibs for the new idea of better shots, you gotta give him the blame too.

5) Won't talk about the Hawks. Nothing to do with this argument. They should also fall from grace given their metrics. Them sucking (with a 13-11 record) doesn't make us any better. Unless we beat them tomorrow...but I agree. Atlanta sucks.

6) Teams do take time to sort things out. This is 2.25 seasons in to Thibs tenure. I'm seeing a lot of the same patterning. At least this year he is giving other lineups a look. He's growing as a coach. But I don't know what magical change we are waiting for with this team. What changes next year versus this with what we have. What personnel do you add to this team that makes it a contender?

7) I am paying pretty damn close attention to development. Mostly cause I love this team. Guys like McBride and Sims were on my earliest "who would you draft" lists. Huge fans. I put Reddish down as the guy I expected to outperform. I proposed trades for him that well pre-date the actual trade. I singled him out as a potential defensive beast that could be had for cheap. I thought he would beat out Fournier in training camp for the starting nod. I don't expect to win every game, but I expect a Thibodeau coached team to play the "right" way. I don't believe this is occurring - at least not on offense. And its either cause the players aren't listening to Thibs or his offensive schemes aren't that effective in the modern NBA. I don't see anything other than iso-ball.

8) The "rebuild the right way" and "develop young players" is happening. I just don't see anything to show that it is because of Thibs and not in spite of Thibs. I don't see a system of basketball that enables any young players strengths. More of an iso-ball fight for usage with a selfish twinge. They don't really pass the ball. That's the most telling issue. Modern NBA requires 3 point shooting, in my opinion. And we are the worst at it. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/shots-ge... Run a play or two for Robinson. Best finisher in the league and the guy is an afterthought. He's got 58 offensive rebounds this season and 59 shot attempts. I don't think I have ever seen a Randle to Robinson assist.

9) Not sure which offensive efficiency stat you are referring to. I use eFG (same link as above) and ours is really bad. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... I think the impressions of their "changes" to the offense are more about Randle and are about a month old. He's back to the same old nonsense and he has free reign.

10) Thing is, I don't think the Knicks are in the bottom quarter of talent. I think the systems do not accentuate these players strengths and so they look worse than they are. I think Toronto has worse players but a better coach, for instance. If Barrett has Quin Snyder instead of the parade of coaches we have, does he look more like Donovan Mitchell? QS coaches both sides of the ball. If Quin would take the Knicks job, I would make that move in a nano-second.

You are not looking for development. You are looking to find ways to not look for it or deny it or find flaws with it, there is a big difference. Again, you can do the above with every team and it's trying to find flaws and there are a ton out there. Once you get over that hump, if you'd like to talk about it, let me know.

It starts with a hard look at the level of talent the Knicks have to work with and goes from there.

I mean, are you in for a brutal look at what the team is trying to do versus what they are capable of executing given their talent level and the balance between the two?

I answered your comments with thoughtfulness and facts. I challenged your assumptions based on actual fact. You kind of responded that I am just being a nitpicker. GSW will be fine -- look at their eFG. San Antonio is clearly tanking. Their numbers are skewed.

I'll take a different approach and even agree to be open-minded about it:

In your opinion, when is it time to replace a coach?

How about when it's clear a new coach will improve the team?

NBA coaches are replaced when:

They lose the team and locker room (not playing hard)
They have an issue with player(s) that causes a toxic environment
The win total is clearly below the talent level
They were not hired by the current FO and/or are not on the same page as the FO with rotations and development
They do something really stupid and need to be fired

Am I missing something? If I did feel free to give an example of coach fired for a different reason

Which one of those is Thibs?

martin @ 12/7/2022 11:47 AM
GustavBahler wrote:Can you explain why Thibs isnt encouraging more PnRs with Obi? Overall, I dont see an attention to detail on the court, that I would expect from a Thibs coached team. Part of it might be all the changes to the lineup.

Why do you think I know this stuff? Or why can't you also try to come up with some reasonable takes?

Obi is the Knicks BEST 3pt shooter, right? He is the best Knicks player to consistently spread the floor to open up lanes to the basket and also pull a PF defender away from the basket so that guys like IQ and Cam and McBride have more space to operate?

Maybe the Knicks are trying to emphasize the 3pt shot for Obi, the thing he is doing well at. Is that a good thing that the Knicks are putting him in a position to succeed and he is doing fairly well at it?

I get the idea that they need to diversify his role but you don't just throw everything at a player all at the same time. Incremental steps.

And if Obi is doing PnR with a PG, his defender, is near the paint. And so is the defending Center, if it's a guy like Sims or even Hart right now who is not enough of a spacer. Put Sims or Hart in the PnR and have Obi on wing, and it's a different story.

martin @ 12/7/2022 12:10 PM
EwingsGlass wrote:
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
fishmike wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
fishmike wrote:
blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?

You are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.

Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨

no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bullshit reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's none

As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"

Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.

The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.

I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.

Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been saying

well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan

Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs

“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.

I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.

Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?

You are not looking for progress, you are looking for reasons to not like what you see.

I see a ton of progress. If you can't see it, ask about it.

And how the heck do you not see the capability of Thibs being able to coach defense? 2 years ago, Knicks defensive efficiency was top 5. Last year 11. Both years had some not good defenders in Randle and RJ and a young Mitch. Last year hosted Fournier and Kemba with Mitch taking 50 games to get in shape and the defense was near top 10.

Folks have fixated on the Knicks 3point line defense on the weak side. All teams give up something, no scheme is good enough or everyone would be using it and defenses would be much better. It's a nice footnote but nothing conclusive when you KNOW you have Jalen and RJ and Randle, those guys suck at D. But suddenly when Grimes and IQ and McBride or Cam are playing, mostly problem solved. You get that right?

If you want to find something you don't like, you will find it with any team. ANY team. For a lot of different aspects of the team. It ain't particular to the Knicks, we just have the media and social media that don't really have much better to do than repeating the same things over and over for us to consume and most of it is pretty thin.

Fucking GS is playing 1 game better than the Knicks. They have like 3 HOF guys and 2 other all stars they rotate around. Plus a #2 and #6 pick on their team. That's talent and by any relative measuring stick the Knicks are playing lights out compared to the talent on that team.

Atlanta adds an all star, all defensive team guy to their loaded team... and they suck in comparison to the Knicks if you take in talent spectrum.

Teams do take time to sort things out.

Some of you need to level-set your expectations and actually pay attention to development, cause you are ignoring it or completely missing it.

Lots of fans complain that Knicks would never rebuild the right way and never develop young players. It's literally happening.

Go look up the offensive efficiently rating for all teams. Knicks are middle of the pack in NBA. They are also near bottom quarter in terms of talent. The teams above the Knicks? All with a ton more talent. Something right is happening with the Knicks offensively. IMHO the Knicks are emphasizing it this year, and this is not me sniffing something out that is hidden, the team has literally told us.

The often suggested Thibs on the hot seat every other loss by media or fans is some of the dumbest lines of thought process I've seen in a long time.


Eloquently put.

Progress is happening, despite the efforts of many fans and media to derail it through stupidity and malice. The media are snakes but with the fans it's like kids who want to ear ice cream all day and play in traffic and have temper tantrums.

1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.

2) GS will be fine. Your records are outdated (its two games!), but the GSW metrics are in line with a team that is better than their record.

3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.

4) The stats match what I am seeing on the court. And the player we were proud of for making good shot decisions early in the season, is doing it less often now. That sweet looking shot chart got a lot lighter blue in some bad areas.https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/julius-... Fool me once... but let's put it on Randle instead. If we are praising Thibs for the new idea of better shots, you gotta give him the blame too.

5) Won't talk about the Hawks. Nothing to do with this argument. They should also fall from grace given their metrics. Them sucking (with a 13-11 record) doesn't make us any better. Unless we beat them tomorrow...but I agree. Atlanta sucks.

6) Teams do take time to sort things out. This is 2.25 seasons in to Thibs tenure. I'm seeing a lot of the same patterning. At least this year he is giving other lineups a look. He's growing as a coach. But I don't know what magical change we are waiting for with this team. What changes next year versus this with what we have. What personnel do you add to this team that makes it a contender?

7) I am paying pretty damn close attention to development. Mostly cause I love this team. Guys like McBride and Sims were on my earliest "who would you draft" lists. Huge fans. I put Reddish down as the guy I expected to outperform. I proposed trades for him that well pre-date the actual trade. I singled him out as a potential defensive beast that could be had for cheap. I thought he would beat out Fournier in training camp for the starting nod. I don't expect to win every game, but I expect a Thibodeau coached team to play the "right" way. I don't believe this is occurring - at least not on offense. And its either cause the players aren't listening to Thibs or his offensive schemes aren't that effective in the modern NBA. I don't see anything other than iso-ball.

8) The "rebuild the right way" and "develop young players" is happening. I just don't see anything to show that it is because of Thibs and not in spite of Thibs. I don't see a system of basketball that enables any young players strengths. More of an iso-ball fight for usage with a selfish twinge. They don't really pass the ball. That's the most telling issue. Modern NBA requires 3 point shooting, in my opinion. And we are the worst at it. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/shots-ge... Run a play or two for Robinson. Best finisher in the league and the guy is an afterthought. He's got 58 offensive rebounds this season and 59 shot attempts. I don't think I have ever seen a Randle to Robinson assist.

9) Not sure which offensive efficiency stat you are referring to. I use eFG (same link as above) and ours is really bad. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... I think the impressions of their "changes" to the offense are more about Randle and are about a month old. He's back to the same old nonsense and he has free reign.

10) Thing is, I don't think the Knicks are in the bottom quarter of talent. I think the systems do not accentuate these players strengths and so they look worse than they are. I think Toronto has worse players but a better coach, for instance. If Barrett has Quin Snyder instead of the parade of coaches we have, does he look more like Donovan Mitchell? QS coaches both sides of the ball. If Quin would take the Knicks job, I would make that move in a nano-second.

You are not looking for development. You are looking to find ways to not look for it or deny it or find flaws with it, there is a big difference. Again, you can do the above with every team and it's trying to find flaws and there are a ton out there. Once you get over that hump, if you'd like to talk about it, let me know.

It starts with a hard look at the level of talent the Knicks have to work with and goes from there.

I mean, are you in for a brutal look at what the team is trying to do versus what they are capable of executing given their talent level and the balance between the two?

I answered your comments with thoughtfulness and facts. I challenged your assumptions based on actual fact. You kind of responded that I am just being a nitpicker. GSW will be fine -- look at their eFG. San Antonio is clearly tanking. Their numbers are skewed.

I'll take a different approach and even agree to be open-minded about it:

In your opinion, when is it time to replace a coach?

I don't find your above thoughtful. Again, you are looking for flaws instead of looking for development. I'll take the first:

1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.

No one is blaming RJ, Brunson, Randle; it's just reality. They are poor defenders, and somehow RJ got worse this year. Do you find those statements correct or not? If you have a starting lineup of 3 bad defenders who also are poor at rotating and defending the perimeter, do you think it's a bad scheme or just shitty defenders?

Do you think Thbis is just watching Randle and not saying something to him? Do you think a different coach can get Randle to defend more? Do you think a different coach can make RJ's feet move faster?

How do you equate the fact that when Grimes, IQ, McBride are defending they are light years ahead of these guys?

It's a fucking MIRACLE that Thibs was able to squeeze out a top rated defense out of RJ and Randle. That's 2/5th's of guys who are getting heavy minutes in your rotation. RJ is just a poor defender in general and so is Randle. Neither can think through what they are doing and only Randle has enough quickness to do it from time to time.

Last one for me:

3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.

eFG% is the result of making baskets. It's not about the type of offense that gets you the shots that you want. You are pointing to execution of the shotmaking and not the types of shots the guys are doing.

The Knicks just went all modern offense this year. Rim shots and 3pointers. They just have guys that can't make those shots. Namely, the 2 guys that are the Knicks best'ish players.

RJ gets a fuckton of open shots cause the offense is putting him into those situations. Rim shots and 3points, both of which he is executing at an ungodly poor %. That's the shot-making portion. Coaching have ZERO control over shooting, they only put in you a position to take those shots.

RJ gets a TON of Spanish PnR going downhill towards the rim with his dominant hand. This is purposeful; it's exactly what RJ SHOULD be able to do. Make a decision to pass to wide open spacers or alley oop to big or make a 5-10 foot shot (which he sucks at). He sucks at making reads too but is constantly in the position to do so. That's a scheme working, a player not making a shot (and thus poor eFG%).

The Knicks right now have some poor 3point shooters. They are getting enough open shots. They are not making them at even an average rate. So duh, low eFG%.

Analytically speaking, Knicks offense if competely different than the 2 previous years. Go look at Randle shot chart this year compared to the last 2. His eFG% is some of the best in his career, cause they make him not take long 2's and most of his post ups. They want him downhill too with more rim and 3pointers ala a modern offense and he is mostly doing it. Still sucks at MAKING 3's, but he is taking them at a higher rate, which you want.

Why do you think eFG% is indicative of scheme versus scheme plus the talent to MAKE shots when you have opportunities?

In addition to types of shots the Knicks are taking, the pace of the team is much faster than in 2 previous years. Previous years, they were bottom. This year, they are top 10. Those are the schemes put in place.

Knicks just don't have the guys who can make shots. It's literally just that.

martin @ 12/7/2022 12:12 PM
wargames wrote:Now when Thibs won COTY and embarrassed himself in the playoffs against the Hawks. I said “fire him” and he clearly wasn’t

LOL yeah but what kind of nonesense is firing a coach after a year when he gets COTY and is then defeated in a playoff series against a team that was clearly dominant?

That's just not reality. I don't know what kind of expectation world that is. That's whack man

Chandler @ 12/7/2022 12:26 PM
The Celtics broadcasters used to often repeat the following

Some coaches are good at development
Some coaches are good at winning
Great coaches are good at both

I respect Thibs as a coach. We can forget how embarrassing things were before he joined. Now we have at least a recent taste of winning and understandably want more. I think Fire Thibs is born out of that frustration but i'd like to know who we would be replacing him with

Right now we have a lot of guys in a funk. That very well could be coaching because guys are confused with roles. Still thinking of D.Rose's comment where he doesn't know his role. Other than Brunson D.Rose is next in line for guys who should absolutely know their role. It also could be unfortunate randomness where all guys happen to stink at the same time in which case they just need to stick together as best they can

My hope is one of the young guys finally takes that next step forward, Grimes, IQ or Obi is my ranking (I might have Obi higher except i don't think the CS has a plan for him). I think Grimes and IQ will take the next step when they start knocking down shots. Team also needs to defend the 3 better

martin @ 12/7/2022 12:30 PM
Chandler wrote:The Celtics broadcasters used to often repeat the following

Some coaches are good at development
Some coaches are good at winning
Great coaches are good at both

I respect Thibs as a coach. We can forget how embarrassing things were before he joined. Now we have at least a recent taste of winning and understandably want more. I think Fire Thibs is born out of that frustration but i'd like to know who we would be replacing him with

Right now we have a lot of guys in a funk. That very well could be coaching because guys are confused with roles. Still thinking of D.Rose's comment where he doesn't know his role. Other than Brunson D.Rose is next in line for guys who should absolutely know their role. It also could be unfortunate randomness where all guys happen to stink at the same time in which case they just need to stick together as best they can

My hope is one of the young guys finally takes that next step forward, Grimes, IQ or Obi is my ranking (I might have Obi higher except i don't think the CS has a plan for him). I think Grimes and IQ will take the next step when they start knocking down shots. Team also needs to defend the 3 better

Could you point us to this statement of Rose's? Cause I didn't see it that way. Rose knows his role on team, he just didn't know if he was getting playing time.

Chandler @ 12/7/2022 12:44 PM
martin wrote:
Chandler wrote:The Celtics broadcasters used to often repeat the following

Some coaches are good at development
Some coaches are good at winning
Great coaches are good at both

I respect Thibs as a coach. We can forget how embarrassing things were before he joined. Now we have at least a recent taste of winning and understandably want more. I think Fire Thibs is born out of that frustration but i'd like to know who we would be replacing him with

Right now we have a lot of guys in a funk. That very well could be coaching because guys are confused with roles. Still thinking of D.Rose's comment where he doesn't know his role. Other than Brunson D.Rose is next in line for guys who should absolutely know their role. It also could be unfortunate randomness where all guys happen to stink at the same time in which case they just need to stick together as best they can

My hope is one of the young guys finally takes that next step forward, Grimes, IQ or Obi is my ranking (I might have Obi higher except i don't think the CS has a plan for him). I think Grimes and IQ will take the next step when they start knocking down shots. Team also needs to defend the 3 better

Could you point us to this statement of Rose's? Cause I didn't see it that way. Rose knows his role on team, he just didn't know if he was getting playing time.

here's one but i heard him say this more recently too: https://nypost.com/2022/11/10/derrick-ro...

wargames @ 12/7/2022 12:46 PM
martin wrote:
wargames wrote:Now when Thibs won COTY and embarrassed himself in the playoffs against the Hawks. I said “fire him” and he clearly wasn’t

LOL yeah but what kind of nonesense is firing a coach after a year when he gets COTY and is then defeated in a playoff series against a team that was clearly dominant?

That's just not reality. I don't know what kind of expectation world that is. That's whack man

His coaching during the hawks series was deplorable. For a veteran coach who had just won coty the team was clearly unable to adapt to Randle being doubled team and he didn’t adapt the whole series to Trae being hid on Bullock defensively.

It was so bad I wanted him fired then, and honestly it’s one of the reasons why while I don’t expect or even hope for a tank. I also don’t think this team could get past the first round again and player wise it is more talented than that 2019 team.

RJ is struggling as a starter next to two ball dominant left handers and Thibs has yet to try RJ playing heavy with the bench unit and trying to put better shooters in Fournier, Reddish, and Grimes around Brunson and Randle to see if it could work.

Thibs is bad at his job because he’s too arrogant. If anything the COTY set him up to fail because it’s clear it’s made him feel justified to be set in his ways. Meanwhile his relationship to Leon also has it that he acts like he doesn’t work for him. That whole Begley report on Leon is fiercely loyal to Thibs is nonsense and another reason Thibs needs to go. Leon can’t think straight and act like a POBO with one of his best friends in the role as coach.

martin @ 12/7/2022 12:48 PM
Chandler wrote:
martin wrote:
Chandler wrote:The Celtics broadcasters used to often repeat the following

Some coaches are good at development
Some coaches are good at winning
Great coaches are good at both

I respect Thibs as a coach. We can forget how embarrassing things were before he joined. Now we have at least a recent taste of winning and understandably want more. I think Fire Thibs is born out of that frustration but i'd like to know who we would be replacing him with

Right now we have a lot of guys in a funk. That very well could be coaching because guys are confused with roles. Still thinking of D.Rose's comment where he doesn't know his role. Other than Brunson D.Rose is next in line for guys who should absolutely know their role. It also could be unfortunate randomness where all guys happen to stink at the same time in which case they just need to stick together as best they can

My hope is one of the young guys finally takes that next step forward, Grimes, IQ or Obi is my ranking (I might have Obi higher except i don't think the CS has a plan for him). I think Grimes and IQ will take the next step when they start knocking down shots. Team also needs to defend the 3 better

Could you point us to this statement of Rose's? Cause I didn't see it that way. Rose knows his role on team, he just didn't know if he was getting playing time.

here's one but i heard him say this more recently too: https://nypost.com/2022/11/10/derrick-ro...

His playing time is limited? He is coming off injury season and is 34? And?

He has played in the same role as he had before on the Knicks. With IQ off bench. He hasn't been as spicy and also hurt his toe recently?

So this is it?

martin @ 12/7/2022 12:57 PM
wargames wrote:
martin wrote:
wargames wrote:Now when Thibs won COTY and embarrassed himself in the playoffs against the Hawks. I said “fire him” and he clearly wasn’t

LOL yeah but what kind of nonesense is firing a coach after a year when he gets COTY and is then defeated in a playoff series against a team that was clearly dominant?

That's just not reality. I don't know what kind of expectation world that is. That's whack man

His coaching during the hawks series was deplorable. For a veteran coach who had just won coty the team was clearly unable to adapt to Randle being doubled team and he didn’t adapt the whole series to Trae being hid on Bullock defensively.

It was so bad I wanted him fired then, and honestly it’s one of the reasons why while I don’t expect or even hope for a tank. I also don’t think this team could get past the first round again and player wise it is more talented than that 2019 team.

RJ is struggling as a starter next to two ball dominant left handers and Thibs has yet to try RJ playing heavy with the bench unit and trying to put better shooters in Fournier, Reddish, and Grimes around Brunson and Randle to see if it could work.

Thibs is bad at his job because he’s too arrogant. If anything the COTY set him up to fail because it’s clear it’s made him feel justified to be set in his ways. Meanwhile his relationship to Leon also has it that he acts like he doesn’t work for him. That whole Begley report on Leon is fiercely loyal to Thibs is nonsense and another reason Thibs needs to go. Leon can’t think straight and act like a POBO with one of his best friends in the role as coach.

Well, you don't operate in NBA reality. It's a nice sentiment to have as a fan but that's it.

Thibs got the last 2 years of his contract guaranteed after that series, for what it's worth. All teams would have been head over heels even with the failures of the Atlanta match.

Fucking COTY in his first year after taking over a 20 win team with the addition of a couple of rookies and some journeymen vets and 32yo Rose and got 4th seed in an unusual season. But fire his ass lol

No one would respect you as a GM if you pulled that move. You'd be black balled so fast you wouldn't know what hit you after you were fired.

You need to decide if you want to have passion as a fan or evaluate NBA teams and circumstances like normal NBA people do because there is a wide chasm there.

fishmike @ 12/7/2022 1:01 PM
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
fishmike wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
fishmike wrote:
blkexec wrote:Fish do you work for msg?

You are protecting Dolan and Knicks management like you’re on their payroll.

Nobody is untouchable, except Dolan. And the fans still tried to get Dolan removed. But I just feel like you spend more energy protecting this knick system, coach, FO, owner and players. Just curious 🧐 🤨

no I dont work for MSG... I'm just waiting for anything besides a bullshit reason to fire Thibs but after 15 pages but there's none

As for energy spent protecting the Knicks I spend exactly 17% of the energy you do running around your place wondering why Thibs doesn't "hold Randle accountable"

Who says anyone is untouchable? I have said many times there's no way Leon/Thibs are staking their Knick career on Randle. They are not that stupid. When the time comes it will come.

The lack of ball movement. The number of open threes. The perception that player minutes are mismanaged. The overly aggressive techs on coach errors. The lack of faith that there is an overall plan. These are my reasons.
I don’t want to watch two more years of iso ball for the 10-11-12 pick.

I’ve lost faith that there is a plan. That’s all I need.

Right.... so "fire Thibs" is just over your feelings, not actual results which is what I have been saying

well good thing for the Knicks and Thibs no coach has ever been fired because a fan lost faith in the plan

Its cool. I get its boring and not fun to watch. Inconsistency is hard to watch. That's what happens when you play young guys. Deuce is up next. Prolly gonna see more ups and downs

“That’s just like your opinion, man”. Of course my beliefs are impacted by my feelings. I see this team and it lacks progress and that has caused me to lose faith in the coaching. That’s a subjective opinion that can be backed up with objective fact. The regression in the defense, the lack of ball movement in the offense, the missed rotations… at some point you look at coach. Or the win loss record. I don’t believe Coach Thibs will win a championship with this team. I also don’t think Coach Thibs will win a championship with his defensive scheme. And I don’t really think he is connecting with the players even if they spout company line propaganda.

I mean, what results are you happy with. Quin Snyder got fired with the winning-most record over the last 3 years but no finals appearance. There are no objective standards for when to remove a coach.

Objectively, what are your standards for removing a coach? What would it take for you to say “aw man, it’s time to replace this guy”. Are you renewing his contract after 5?

You are not looking for progress, you are looking for reasons to not like what you see.

I see a ton of progress. If you can't see it, ask about it.

And how the heck do you not see the capability of Thibs being able to coach defense? 2 years ago, Knicks defensive efficiency was top 5. Last year 11. Both years had some not good defenders in Randle and RJ and a young Mitch. Last year hosted Fournier and Kemba with Mitch taking 50 games to get in shape and the defense was near top 10.

Folks have fixated on the Knicks 3point line defense on the weak side. All teams give up something, no scheme is good enough or everyone would be using it and defenses would be much better. It's a nice footnote but nothing conclusive when you KNOW you have Jalen and RJ and Randle, those guys suck at D. But suddenly when Grimes and IQ and McBride or Cam are playing, mostly problem solved. You get that right?

If you want to find something you don't like, you will find it with any team. ANY team. For a lot of different aspects of the team. It ain't particular to the Knicks, we just have the media and social media that don't really have much better to do than repeating the same things over and over for us to consume and most of it is pretty thin.

Fucking GS is playing 1 game better than the Knicks. They have like 3 HOF guys and 2 other all stars they rotate around. Plus a #2 and #6 pick on their team. That's talent and by any relative measuring stick the Knicks are playing lights out compared to the talent on that team.

Atlanta adds an all star, all defensive team guy to their loaded team... and they suck in comparison to the Knicks if you take in talent spectrum.

Teams do take time to sort things out.

Some of you need to level-set your expectations and actually pay attention to development, cause you are ignoring it or completely missing it.

Lots of fans complain that Knicks would never rebuild the right way and never develop young players. It's literally happening.

Go look up the offensive efficiently rating for all teams. Knicks are middle of the pack in NBA. They are also near bottom quarter in terms of talent. The teams above the Knicks? All with a ton more talent. Something right is happening with the Knicks offensively. IMHO the Knicks are emphasizing it this year, and this is not me sniffing something out that is hidden, the team has literally told us.

The often suggested Thibs on the hot seat every other loss by media or fans is some of the dumbest lines of thought process I've seen in a long time.


Eloquently put.

Progress is happening, despite the efforts of many fans and media to derail it through stupidity and malice. The media are snakes but with the fans it's like kids who want to ear ice cream all day and play in traffic and have temper tantrums.

1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.

2) GS will be fine. Your records are outdated (its two games!), but the GSW metrics are in line with a team that is better than their record.

3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.

4) The stats match what I am seeing on the court. And the player we were proud of for making good shot decisions early in the season, is doing it less often now. That sweet looking shot chart got a lot lighter blue in some bad areas.https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/julius-... Fool me once... but let's put it on Randle instead. If we are praising Thibs for the new idea of better shots, you gotta give him the blame too.

5) Won't talk about the Hawks. Nothing to do with this argument. They should also fall from grace given their metrics. Them sucking (with a 13-11 record) doesn't make us any better. Unless we beat them tomorrow...but I agree. Atlanta sucks.

6) Teams do take time to sort things out. This is 2.25 seasons in to Thibs tenure. I'm seeing a lot of the same patterning. At least this year he is giving other lineups a look. He's growing as a coach. But I don't know what magical change we are waiting for with this team. What changes next year versus this with what we have. What personnel do you add to this team that makes it a contender?

7) I am paying pretty damn close attention to development. Mostly cause I love this team. Guys like McBride and Sims were on my earliest "who would you draft" lists. Huge fans. I put Reddish down as the guy I expected to outperform. I proposed trades for him that well pre-date the actual trade. I singled him out as a potential defensive beast that could be had for cheap. I thought he would beat out Fournier in training camp for the starting nod. I don't expect to win every game, but I expect a Thibodeau coached team to play the "right" way. I don't believe this is occurring - at least not on offense. And its either cause the players aren't listening to Thibs or his offensive schemes aren't that effective in the modern NBA. I don't see anything other than iso-ball.

8) The "rebuild the right way" and "develop young players" is happening. I just don't see anything to show that it is because of Thibs and not in spite of Thibs. I don't see a system of basketball that enables any young players strengths. More of an iso-ball fight for usage with a selfish twinge. They don't really pass the ball. That's the most telling issue. Modern NBA requires 3 point shooting, in my opinion. And we are the worst at it. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/shots-ge... Run a play or two for Robinson. Best finisher in the league and the guy is an afterthought. He's got 58 offensive rebounds this season and 59 shot attempts. I don't think I have ever seen a Randle to Robinson assist.

9) Not sure which offensive efficiency stat you are referring to. I use eFG (same link as above) and ours is really bad. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced... I think the impressions of their "changes" to the offense are more about Randle and are about a month old. He's back to the same old nonsense and he has free reign.

10) Thing is, I don't think the Knicks are in the bottom quarter of talent. I think the systems do not accentuate these players strengths and so they look worse than they are. I think Toronto has worse players but a better coach, for instance. If Barrett has Quin Snyder instead of the parade of coaches we have, does he look more like Donovan Mitchell? QS coaches both sides of the ball. If Quin would take the Knicks job, I would make that move in a nano-second.

You are not looking for development. You are looking to find ways to not look for it or deny it or find flaws with it, there is a big difference. Again, you can do the above with every team and it's trying to find flaws and there are a ton out there. Once you get over that hump, if you'd like to talk about it, let me know.

It starts with a hard look at the level of talent the Knicks have to work with and goes from there.

I mean, are you in for a brutal look at what the team is trying to do versus what they are capable of executing given their talent level and the balance between the two?

I answered your comments with thoughtfulness and facts. I challenged your assumptions based on actual fact. You kind of responded that I am just being a nitpicker. GSW will be fine -- look at their eFG. San Antonio is clearly tanking. Their numbers are skewed.

I'll take a different approach and even agree to be open-minded about it:

In your opinion, when is it time to replace a coach?

I don't find your above thoughtful. Again, you are looking for flaws instead of looking for development. I'll take the first:

1) The 2020 defense was very good, but other teams have adapted and the defense has not. 2021 we blame Walker and Fournier. 2022 we are blaming JB, JR and RJ? I'll back off defense though. No need to fight this battle. Your point about every team having weaknesses is well regarded.

No one is blaming RJ, Brunson, Randle; it's just reality. They are poor defenders, and somehow RJ got worse this year. Do you find those statements correct or not? If you have a starting lineup of 3 bad defenders who also are poor at rotating and defending the perimeter, do you think it's a bad scheme or just shitty defenders?

Do you think Thbis is just watching Randle and not saying something to him? Do you think a different coach can get Randle to defend more? Do you think a different coach can make RJ's feet move faster?

How do you equate the fact that when Grimes, IQ, McBride are defending they are light years ahead of these guys?

It's a fucking MIRACLE that Thibs was able to squeeze out a top rated defense out of RJ and Randle. That's 2/5th's of guys who are getting heavy minutes in your rotation. RJ is just a poor defender in general and so is Randle. Neither can think through what they are doing and only Randle has enough quickness to do it from time to time.

Last one for me:

3) https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT What's good about this offense? 3rd worst eFG in the league. GSW has the second best. Small sample sets, but eFG correlates near perfectly to win percentage over time. We are looking like a GSW-Bos finals again.

eFG% is the result of making baskets. It's not about the type of offense that gets you the shots that you want. You are pointing to execution of the shotmaking and not the types of shots the guys are doing.

The Knicks just went all modern offense this year. Rim shots and 3pointers. They just have guys that can't make those shots. Namely, the 2 guys that are the Knicks best'ish players.

RJ gets a fuckton of open shots cause the offense is putting him into those situations. Rim shots and 3points, both of which he is executing at an ungodly poor %. That's the shot-making portion. Coaching have ZERO control over shooting, they only put in you a position to take those shots.

RJ gets a TON of Spanish PnR going downhill towards the rim with his dominant hand. This is purposeful; it's exactly what RJ SHOULD be able to do. Make a decision to pass to wide open spacers or alley oop to big or make a 5-10 foot shot (which he sucks at). He sucks at making reads too but is constantly in the position to do so. That's a scheme working, a player not making a shot (and thus poor eFG%).

The Knicks right now have some poor 3point shooters. They are getting enough open shots. They are not making them at even an average rate. So duh, low eFG%.

Analytically speaking, Knicks offense if competely different than the 2 previous years. Go look at Randle shot chart this year compared to the last 2. His eFG% is some of the best in his career, cause they make him not take long 2's and most of his post ups. They want him downhill too with more rim and 3pointers ala a modern offense and he is mostly doing it. Still sucks at MAKING 3's, but he is taking them at a higher rate, which you want.

Why do you think eFG% is indicative of scheme versus scheme plus the talent to MAKE shots when you have opportunities?

In addition to types of shots the Knicks are taking, the pace of the team is much faster than in 2 previous years. Previous years, they were bottom. This year, they are top 10. Those are the schemes put in place.

Knicks just don't have the guys who can make shots. It's literally just that.

Martin... a good coach puts his players in position to succeed. This is a pretty impressive breakdown of how that position has been provided and players just arent executing.

Everyone cried about Thibs being antiquated and isnt going to value analytics and "the modern game" and well guess what? That is the exact formula we are following ALONG with a youth movement and people are like "I feel like Thibs needs to go"

Its fine, it's the fanbase. Thibs isnt perfect but he's good, and its been a LONG time since we had a good coach. You know, like a 2x COY type that goes places and the teams and players get better right away because that's what good coaching does. When we are past the "we need talent" stage and onto the "win in the finals" stage maybe it's time for a better X's and O's guy than Thibs. I look forward to those discussions

GustavBahler @ 12/7/2022 1:03 PM
My post looks a lot more reasonable in its entirety..

3pt shooting is just one aspect of Obi's game. He ain't Steve freaking Novak. Obi has shown he can be a threat, rolling to the rim. It gives the D one more thing to worry about. Gives us another way to put pts on the board. Right now its too much ISO, little to no ball movement.

Pace is measured in scoring opportunities. Our pace might be better this season, but the ball movement sucks. More ISO scoring opportunities are masking how slowly the ball is moving. If at all.

The way to solve that problem is to make ball movement mandatory. As with defense, "you suck, you sit."



martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Can you explain why Thibs isnt encouraging more PnRs with Obi? Overall, I dont see an attention to detail on the court, that I would expect from a Thibs coached team. Part of it might be all the changes to the lineup.

Why do you think I know this stuff? Or why can't you also try to come up with some reasonable takes?

Obi is the Knicks BEST 3pt shooter, right? He is the best Knicks player to consistently spread the floor to open up lanes to the basket and also pull a PF defender away from the basket so that guys like IQ and Cam and McBride have more space to operate?

Maybe the Knicks are trying to emphasize the 3pt shot for Obi, the thing he is doing well at. Is that a good thing that the Knicks are putting him in a position to succeed and he is doing fairly well at it?

I get the idea that they need to diversify his role but you don't just throw everything at a player all at the same time. Incremental steps.

And if Obi is doing PnR with a PG, his defender, is near the paint. And so is the defending Center, if it's a guy like Sims or even Hart right now who is not enough of a spacer. Put Sims or Hart in the PnR and have Obi on wing, and it's a different story.

Chandler @ 12/7/2022 1:09 PM
martin wrote:
Chandler wrote:
martin wrote:
Chandler wrote:The Celtics broadcasters used to often repeat the following

Some coaches are good at development
Some coaches are good at winning
Great coaches are good at both

I respect Thibs as a coach. We can forget how embarrassing things were before he joined. Now we have at least a recent taste of winning and understandably want more. I think Fire Thibs is born out of that frustration but i'd like to know who we would be replacing him with

Right now we have a lot of guys in a funk. That very well could be coaching because guys are confused with roles. Still thinking of D.Rose's comment where he doesn't know his role. Other than Brunson D.Rose is next in line for guys who should absolutely know their role. It also could be unfortunate randomness where all guys happen to stink at the same time in which case they just need to stick together as best they can

My hope is one of the young guys finally takes that next step forward, Grimes, IQ or Obi is my ranking (I might have Obi higher except i don't think the CS has a plan for him). I think Grimes and IQ will take the next step when they start knocking down shots. Team also needs to defend the 3 better

Could you point us to this statement of Rose's? Cause I didn't see it that way. Rose knows his role on team, he just didn't know if he was getting playing time.

here's one but i heard him say this more recently too: https://nypost.com/2022/11/10/derrick-ro...

His playing time is limited? He is coming off injury season and is 34? And?

He has played in the same role as he had before on the Knicks. With IQ off bench. He hasn't been as spicy and also hurt his toe recently?

So this is it?

i can't find his more recent comment. That said, i do think the team looks out of sync at times which is odd because i expected the addition of JB to help tremendously.

We should also keep in mind that this unit has had the most consistency of roster and coaching and scheme in a while.

obi looks lost at time; RJ looks like he's trying to pretend to be superman; i think JR at times is trying to play to a new more deferential-to-JB role but still a Work in progress. IQ is so focused on PG role he's lost his scoring electricity

we have to break out of this -- hopefully tonight

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