Knicks · Fire Thibs (page 49)

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.

You think Thibs teams in NY and Minny had enough talent to get past the second round? Explain why you think they should have, I’m interested.

You keep repeating stuff that is very easy to figure out, take some time to figure it out.

I get that you are not entertained but that a you thing.

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.

You think Thibs teams in NY and Minny had enough talent to get past the second round? Explain why you think they should have, I’m interested.

You keep repeating stuff that is very easy to figure out, take some time to figure it out.

I get that you are not entertained but that a you thing.

Thibs built that team in Minny, not Layden. Of course I expect the person who built the roster and coached it to take a big share of the blame for the lack of success.

Its been reported that Thibs has a good deal of sway over the roster in NY as well. You get the players you want, you coach them to early exists every year. Of course I put the results on Thibs. Why would he get a pass for all the early exits? Every single one?

The season Randle tore up his ankle, he was already hurt, and asked Thibs to go back in during garbage, right before the playoffs were about to begin. Aggravated his injury, needed surgery in the offseason. This is the only way he seems to know how to coach "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead". I dont find early exits very entertaining.

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. Is it so crazy to want to see Thibs change things up? Listen to his starters who are saying that they're gassed from league leading minutes. Hart used to complain if he were taken out the game, but even he's reached a point where its taking its toll, and were still a month or so from the playoffs.

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.

You think Thibs teams in NY and Minny had enough talent to get past the second round? Explain why you think they should have, I’m interested.

You keep repeating stuff that is very easy to figure out, take some time to figure it out.

I get that you are not entertained but that a you thing.

Thibs built that team in Minny, not Layden. Of course I expect the person who built the roster and coached it to take a big share of the blame for the lack of success.

Its been reported that Thibs has a good deal of sway over the roster in NY as well. You get the players you want, you coach them to early exists every year. Of course I put the results on Thibs. Why would he get a pass for all the early exits? Every single one?

The season Randle tore up his ankle, he was already hurt, and asked Thibs to go back in during garbage, right before the playoffs were about to begin. Aggravated his injury, needed surgery in the offseason. This is the only way he seems to know how to coach "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead". I dont find early exits very entertaining.

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. Is it so crazy to want to see Thibs change things up? Listen to his starters who are saying that they're gassed from league leading minutes. Hart used to complain if he were taken out the game, but even he's reached a point where its taking its toll, and were still a month or so from the playoffs.

and definition of blind is not being able to see the wall you are about the walk into.

Knicks starters have been among the best with the league all year. Knicks bench has been among the worst all year. You say "play the bench more" its like right... cause it would be insane not too

MS wrote:It’s not about being ready, it’s about staying healthy. Staggering minutes isn’t rocket science—you can’t have your entire starting five leading the league in minutes. That’s just not sustainable.

McBride should come in for Bridges, then Kolek should spell Brunson while Bridges stays out there and replaces OG to give them a breather. Bring Bridges back in and get his mid-range game going—that’s an easy way to keep the offense balanced. Keep KAT on the floor with Mitch and run pick-and-pops, pick-and-rolls—make teams defend that.

You’re telling me giving Kolek 12 minutes is going to kill us?

And on top of that, the starters are still out there in games that are already decided. KAT tweaks his knee, and you put him back in? What are we doing?

Losing the war during the regular season just seems a little redundant

Did you promote Kolek over CamPayne.
Kolek played well as back up to Payne. It was good outing.
Perhaps he gets to play again vs. Mavs. do well, Earn the minutes. Be good if he hit his shots. That will open things up. If not, doe it kill us? Kinda does. Guys that are not carrying it break spirit.
I don't doubt they players need more rest and an effective bench. But there is a process. McBride out gives more minutes. Time to shine!

Every year the Knicks have gotten better within the context of their team. Their players have gotten better every year. Much much better.

This year in particular, the Knicks have Brunson and OG who previously played 6+ weeks of games together. Brunson and Josh played together and Josh is in a new starting role. He is playing bonkers out of his mind.

3 new starters this year outside of OG and Brunson, all of whom have never played together before. They also did not have KAT at the beginning of training camp.

I do not understand how coaching staffs prepare for their upcoming training camp and season but I don't think they get together a couple of days beforehand or even just week or 2 before hand to devise plans. Probably a whole month.

All of those plans - teams of coaches who collectively spent a month devising - were completely scrapped exactly as training camp was about to start. And their whole team philosophy completely changed from defense to offense. And yet out of the gate, they came out pretty well.

Perhaps someone can help me understand the timeline of normal starting lineups to gel and get familiar with their offensive and defensive playbook. And doing it after traning camp started. How long does it normally take? Their bench was decimated at the beginning of the year. 2 + 2 = 4 as to why the starters played more together.

Knicks are a solid second tier team.

IMO it's not so much about time to gel as more time will end up the same - we have exactly what we all should have thought we would have... 3 excellent 2 way players playing with 2 great offensive players who struggle on defense. I think we should invest the remainder of the season running Mitch next to KAT to see if that offers better offensive/defensive balance and improves our overall functioning. I think are results are directly a result of the starting roster and won't change unless either KAT or Brunson suddenly becomes a 2 way player. We can't beat Boston because every player at each position plays both sides and they share the ball better... the Cavs are impressive in that their roster isn't perfect but they found the necessary balance needed to overwhelm many teams on a nightly basis. I hope the FO gives us next training camp with the twin towers but I honestly doubt they will do that. If we lose Mitch and keep KAT and Brunson as starters - our ceiling will lower even further than it is now. If we keep this same roster and don't start Mitch I can't see Thibs coaching style taking us any further. Could be worse I suppose?

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.

You think Thibs teams in NY and Minny had enough talent to get past the second round? Explain why you think they should have, I’m interested.

You keep repeating stuff that is very easy to figure out, take some time to figure it out.

I get that you are not entertained but that a you thing.

Thibs built that team in Minny, not Layden. Of course I expect the person who built the roster and coached it to take a big share of the blame for the lack of success.

Its been reported that Thibs has a good deal of sway over the roster in NY as well. You get the players you want, you coach them to early exists every year. Of course I put the results on Thibs. Why would he get a pass for all the early exits? Every single one?

The season Randle tore up his ankle, he was already hurt, and asked Thibs to go back in during garbage, right before the playoffs were about to begin. Aggravated his injury, needed surgery in the offseason. This is the only way he seems to know how to coach "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead". I dont find early exits very entertaining.

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. Is it so crazy to want to see Thibs change things up? Listen to his starters who are saying that they're gassed from league leading minutes. Hart used to complain if he were taken out the game, but even he's reached a point where its taking its toll, and were still a month or so from the playoffs.

and definition of blind is not being able to see the wall you are about the walk into.

Knicks starters have been among the best with the league all year. Knicks bench has been among the worst all year. You say "play the bench more" its like right... cause it would be insane not too

Why has it been 30 plus years since a starting unit played so many minutes? The last one was “Run TMC”. They couldn’t get past the second round either.

You play a good starting unit more minutes than any other team, good chance we would see similar results. Lots of winning during the regular season, not so much in the playoffs.

I really hope Thibs ends the long drought, but if he can’t, I hope the FO considers other options.

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.

You think Thibs teams in NY and Minny had enough talent to get past the second round? Explain why you think they should have, I’m interested.

You keep repeating stuff that is very easy to figure out, take some time to figure it out.

I get that you are not entertained but that a you thing.

Thibs built that team in Minny, not Layden. Of course I expect the person who built the roster and coached it to take a big share of the blame for the lack of success.

Its been reported that Thibs has a good deal of sway over the roster in NY as well. You get the players you want, you coach them to early exists every year. Of course I put the results on Thibs. Why would he get a pass for all the early exits? Every single one?

The season Randle tore up his ankle, he was already hurt, and asked Thibs to go back in during garbage, right before the playoffs were about to begin. Aggravated his injury, needed surgery in the offseason. This is the only way he seems to know how to coach "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead". I dont find early exits very entertaining.

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. Is it so crazy to want to see Thibs change things up? Listen to his starters who are saying that they're gassed from league leading minutes. Hart used to complain if he were taken out the game, but even he's reached a point where its taking its toll, and were still a month or so from the playoffs.

That’s just some faux level bluster and a lack of knowing what happened in Minny. That’s on you. Like, just look up their history instead of blathering about.

Thibs took over a 29-53 team that had not been to the playoffs in more than a decade. Within 2 years, they are 47-35. The following year Minny moved on from Thibs.

Why is your expectation that the Minny and NY Teams should have gotten past the second rounds?

You skipped that part and did some poor redirection.

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.

You think Thibs teams in NY and Minny had enough talent to get past the second round? Explain why you think they should have, I’m interested.

You keep repeating stuff that is very easy to figure out, take some time to figure it out.

I get that you are not entertained but that a you thing.

Thibs built that team in Minny, not Layden. Of course I expect the person who built the roster and coached it to take a big share of the blame for the lack of success.

Its been reported that Thibs has a good deal of sway over the roster in NY as well. You get the players you want, you coach them to early exists every year. Of course I put the results on Thibs. Why would he get a pass for all the early exits? Every single one?

The season Randle tore up his ankle, he was already hurt, and asked Thibs to go back in during garbage, right before the playoffs were about to begin. Aggravated his injury, needed surgery in the offseason. This is the only way he seems to know how to coach "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead". I dont find early exits very entertaining.

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. Is it so crazy to want to see Thibs change things up? Listen to his starters who are saying that they're gassed from league leading minutes. Hart used to complain if he were taken out the game, but even he's reached a point where its taking its toll, and were still a month or so from the playoffs.

That’s just some faux level bluster and a lack of knowing what happened in Minny. That’s on you. Like, just look up their history instead of blathering about.

Thibs took over a 29-53 team that had not been to the playoffs in more than a decade. Within 2 years, they are 47-35. The following year Minny moved on from Thibs.

Why is your expectation that the Minny and NY Teams should have gotten past the second rounds?

You skipped that part and did some poor redirection.

How far did they go Martin? You seem to share Thibs’s philosophy that the regular season is all that matters. I have yet to hear you acknowledge that a 14 year gap between deep runs in the playoffs, could be attributed to coaching, or roster building moves. Just a victim of circumstance.

Sorry dude, I don’t buy that. Getting to the playoffs is one thing, avoiding an early exit is another. Takes the right players, and the right strategy. Riding your starters harder than any team in the last 33 years is not what I consider a winning strategy. Will be happy to be proven wrong.

Good Luck tomorrow

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.

You think Thibs teams in NY and Minny had enough talent to get past the second round? Explain why you think they should have, I’m interested.

You keep repeating stuff that is very easy to figure out, take some time to figure it out.

I get that you are not entertained but that a you thing.

Thibs built that team in Minny, not Layden. Of course I expect the person who built the roster and coached it to take a big share of the blame for the lack of success.

Its been reported that Thibs has a good deal of sway over the roster in NY as well. You get the players you want, you coach them to early exists every year. Of course I put the results on Thibs. Why would he get a pass for all the early exits? Every single one?

The season Randle tore up his ankle, he was already hurt, and asked Thibs to go back in during garbage, right before the playoffs were about to begin. Aggravated his injury, needed surgery in the offseason. This is the only way he seems to know how to coach "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead". I dont find early exits very entertaining.

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. Is it so crazy to want to see Thibs change things up? Listen to his starters who are saying that they're gassed from league leading minutes. Hart used to complain if he were taken out the game, but even he's reached a point where its taking its toll, and were still a month or so from the playoffs.

That’s just some faux level bluster and a lack of knowing what happened in Minny. That’s on you. Like, just look up their history instead of blathering about.

Thibs took over a 29-53 team that had not been to the playoffs in more than a decade. Within 2 years, they are 47-35. The following year Minny moved on from Thibs.

Why is your expectation that the Minny and NY Teams should have gotten past the second rounds?

You skipped that part and did some poor redirection.

How far did they go Martin? You seem to share Thibs’s philosophy that the regular season is all that matters. I have yet to hear you acknowledge that a 14 year gap between deep runs in the playoffs, could be attributed to coaching, or roster building moves. Just a victim of circumstance.

Sorry dude, I don’t buy that. Getting to the playoffs is one thing, avoiding an early exit is another. Takes the right players, and the right strategy. Riding your starters harder than any team in the last 33 years is not what I consider a winning strategy. Will be happy to be proven wrong.

Good Luck tomorrow

Those are your thoughts, not mine.

Thibs got a franchise that hadn’t been to the playoffs in a decade, that’s the accomplishment. In year two of a flailing franchise, that’s extraordinary.

Just as with getting a Julius lead team with Noel and Elfrid in the starting lineup to the 4th seed. As a comparison, Spo can’t get Miami with Tyler Herro, Rozier, Robinson, and Bam to the 10th seed with much better overall talent and lots of playoff experience in all of them, for instance. That’s called context.

The year Minny got to the playoffs, they lost to a 65 win Houston team with prime CP3 and Harden. By your logic, Thibs should have somehow gotten past the second round at some point? With those teams?

Or did you just not understand the context of what you are trying to talk about there?

Still not understanding why you would think it’s reasonable that Thibs should have gotten to the second round with the likes of those teams. Help me understand your thinking there.

Or scrap it.

Which Minny and NY teams do you think should have gotten past the second round. Be clear by stating the years, that’ll help.

The year that the Knicks trounced Cleveland and then lost to a Miami team that was talented enough to make it to the finals or the one that started Noel and Elfrid? Or the Minny one that got to spiked by a 65 win Houston team in their first playoffs in a decade?

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.

You think Thibs teams in NY and Minny had enough talent to get past the second round? Explain why you think they should have, I’m interested.

You keep repeating stuff that is very easy to figure out, take some time to figure it out.

I get that you are not entertained but that a you thing.

Thibs built that team in Minny, not Layden. Of course I expect the person who built the roster and coached it to take a big share of the blame for the lack of success.

Its been reported that Thibs has a good deal of sway over the roster in NY as well. You get the players you want, you coach them to early exists every year. Of course I put the results on Thibs. Why would he get a pass for all the early exits? Every single one?

The season Randle tore up his ankle, he was already hurt, and asked Thibs to go back in during garbage, right before the playoffs were about to begin. Aggravated his injury, needed surgery in the offseason. This is the only way he seems to know how to coach "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead". I dont find early exits very entertaining.

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. Is it so crazy to want to see Thibs change things up? Listen to his starters who are saying that they're gassed from league leading minutes. Hart used to complain if he were taken out the game, but even he's reached a point where its taking its toll, and were still a month or so from the playoffs.

That’s just some faux level bluster and a lack of knowing what happened in Minny. That’s on you. Like, just look up their history instead of blathering about.

Thibs took over a 29-53 team that had not been to the playoffs in more than a decade. Within 2 years, they are 47-35. The following year Minny moved on from Thibs.

Why is your expectation that the Minny and NY Teams should have gotten past the second rounds?

You skipped that part and did some poor redirection.

I think you might inadvertently be providing the opposite point. What happened to Minny after they moved on from Thibs? Conference Finals. So maybe he is the right coach to turn around a crappy team and to make them into a good one. A playoff contender. A second round exit team. But to get further you need a different coach. I am now thinking that myself. Thibs will have his chance this playoffs to level up. I guess the best thing at this point is to give him the courtesy to have a chance to do so

They made conf. finals 5 years after Thibs "left".
We take for granted 50 win seasons are like easy?
This is OG's first full season with team, add three starters on top.

Fans do this all the time. Figure a new coach will make it even better. Who is that coach and why?
Is the alternative that we win say 47 games? No guarantee they are much healthier. less reps means less chemistry, and the bench is a mess with starters upset bench is fucking up? Thats one way.

This team by most opinion was not a true contender because it had yet to prove its chemistry and the bench was weak.

Thibs left Minny and five seasons later they made conf. finals. I'd guess other than KAT the roster was vastly different. Half a decade does that.

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.

You think Thibs teams in NY and Minny had enough talent to get past the second round? Explain why you think they should have, I’m interested.

You keep repeating stuff that is very easy to figure out, take some time to figure it out.

I get that you are not entertained but that a you thing.

Thibs built that team in Minny, not Layden. Of course I expect the person who built the roster and coached it to take a big share of the blame for the lack of success.

Its been reported that Thibs has a good deal of sway over the roster in NY as well. You get the players you want, you coach them to early exists every year. Of course I put the results on Thibs. Why would he get a pass for all the early exits? Every single one?

The season Randle tore up his ankle, he was already hurt, and asked Thibs to go back in during garbage, right before the playoffs were about to begin. Aggravated his injury, needed surgery in the offseason. This is the only way he seems to know how to coach "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead". I dont find early exits very entertaining.

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. Is it so crazy to want to see Thibs change things up? Listen to his starters who are saying that they're gassed from league leading minutes. Hart used to complain if he were taken out the game, but even he's reached a point where its taking its toll, and were still a month or so from the playoffs.

and definition of blind is not being able to see the wall you are about the walk into.

Knicks starters have been among the best with the league all year. Knicks bench has been among the worst all year. You say "play the bench more" its like right... cause it would be insane not too

Why has it been 30 plus years since a starting unit played so many minutes? The last one was “Run TMC”. They couldn’t get past the second round either.

You play a good starting unit more minutes than any other team, good chance we would see similar results. Lots of winning during the regular season, not so much in the playoffs.

I really hope Thibs ends the long drought, but if he can’t, I hope the FO considers other options.

so 30 years of not winning titles? So you say we should just do the same as the other teams not winning titles? Isnt that the definition of insanity you provided? We can all play this non logical circle jerk game. It's boring.

ramtour420 wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.

You think Thibs teams in NY and Minny had enough talent to get past the second round? Explain why you think they should have, I’m interested.

You keep repeating stuff that is very easy to figure out, take some time to figure it out.

I get that you are not entertained but that a you thing.

Thibs built that team in Minny, not Layden. Of course I expect the person who built the roster and coached it to take a big share of the blame for the lack of success.

Its been reported that Thibs has a good deal of sway over the roster in NY as well. You get the players you want, you coach them to early exists every year. Of course I put the results on Thibs. Why would he get a pass for all the early exits? Every single one?

The season Randle tore up his ankle, he was already hurt, and asked Thibs to go back in during garbage, right before the playoffs were about to begin. Aggravated his injury, needed surgery in the offseason. This is the only way he seems to know how to coach "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead". I dont find early exits very entertaining.

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. Is it so crazy to want to see Thibs change things up? Listen to his starters who are saying that they're gassed from league leading minutes. Hart used to complain if he were taken out the game, but even he's reached a point where its taking its toll, and were still a month or so from the playoffs.

That’s just some faux level bluster and a lack of knowing what happened in Minny. That’s on you. Like, just look up their history instead of blathering about.

Thibs took over a 29-53 team that had not been to the playoffs in more than a decade. Within 2 years, they are 47-35. The following year Minny moved on from Thibs.

Why is your expectation that the Minny and NY Teams should have gotten past the second rounds?

You skipped that part and did some poor redirection.

I think you might inadvertently be providing the opposite point. What happened to Minny after they moved on from Thibs? Conference Finals. So maybe he is the right coach to turn around a crappy team and to make them into a good one. A playoff contender. A second round exit team. But to get further you need a different coach. I am now thinking that myself. Thibs will have his chance this playoffs to level up. I guess the best thing at this point is to give him the courtesy to have a chance to do so

Less day time vodka bro. Well, at least while posting on Thibs.

Thibs took over a 29-53 team in 2016-17. His first year they were 31-51 and then got to 47-35. He was dismissed the next year, in 2018-19 going 19-21 himself while Saunders finished out the year at 17-25. The next 2 years of Sauders? 19-45, 23-49.

They got to conference finals 5 years after Thibs left. Last year.

Waaaaay less day time drinking, but don't cut it off entirely cause that's life, right?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea...

If your expectations that Thibs should have gotten either the Knicks or the TWolves past the second round, it's an interesting thought. But just not for me, and it entirely ignores what was going on at the time. Context.

Nalod wrote:They made conf. finals 5 years after Thibs "left".
We take for granted 50 win seasons are like easy?
This is OG's first full season with team, add three starters on top.

Fans do this all the time. Figure a new coach will make it even better. Who is that coach and why?
Is the alternative that we win say 47 games? No guarantee they are much healthier. less reps means less chemistry, and the bench is a mess with starters upset bench is fucking up? Thats one way.

This team by most opinion was not a true contender because it had yet to prove its chemistry and the bench was weak.

Thibs left Minny and five seasons later they made conf. finals. I'd guess other than KAT the roster was vastly different. Half a decade does that.

Yes, all of that.

AND, and the current Knicks had to re-wire the whole team philosophy and lineup because of the late trade just before training camp. Those are INVALUABLE practices and time together. I'd guess. Cause you don't have super meaningful practices during the season, give or take.

It's like taking 2 teams of equally talented players and allowing one to have practices to figure out things and the other that does not. Which will perform better? Not rocket science.

It's why I'm not so down on Mikal. KAT and Brunson are still trying to figure things out, Josh HAS figured out his role, OG is OK with being a spacer and defender. Integrating Mikal seems like the last thing on the pecking order of things. And that's OK. Some times you just can't do everything in parallel.

Mikal needs midrange space. The same space that Brunson needs and those guys just haven't figured it out. Brunson is still trying to figure out how to groove without Randle having ball in hands and without anyone that sets picks like iHart and Mitch, and then what to do with KAT and the PnR, no less give up the ball for Mikal.

It's gonna take time. For me, that's not unreasonable.

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:They made conf. finals 5 years after Thibs "left".
We take for granted 50 win seasons are like easy?
This is OG's first full season with team, add three starters on top.

Fans do this all the time. Figure a new coach will make it even better. Who is that coach and why?
Is the alternative that we win say 47 games? No guarantee they are much healthier. less reps means less chemistry, and the bench is a mess with starters upset bench is fucking up? Thats one way.

This team by most opinion was not a true contender because it had yet to prove its chemistry and the bench was weak.

Thibs left Minny and five seasons later they made conf. finals. I'd guess other than KAT the roster was vastly different. Half a decade does that.

Yes, all of that.

AND, and the current Knicks had to re-wire the whole team philosophy and lineup because of the late trade just before training camp. Those are INVALUABLE practices and time together. I'd guess. Cause you don't have super meaningful practices during the season, give or take.

It's like taking 2 teams of equally talented players and allowing one to have practices to figure out things and the other that does not. Which will perform better? Not rocket science.

It's why I'm not so down on Mikal. KAT and Brunson are still trying to figure things out, Josh HAS figured out his role, OG is OK with being a spacer and defender. Integrating Mikal seems like the last thing on the pecking order of things. And that's OK. Some times you just can't do everything in parallel.

Mikal needs midrange space. The same space that Brunson needs and those guys just haven't figured it out. Brunson is still trying to figure out how to groove without Randle having ball in hands and without anyone that sets picks like iHart and Mitch, and then what to do with KAT and the PnR, no less give up the ball for Mikal.

It's gonna take time. For me, that's not unreasonable.

Boston had Tatum/Brown/Smart/Horford together 6 years before the won a title. Was it because they got a new coach? Was it because they traded Marcus Smart for KP who didnt play in the playoffs? Was it... player development and patience?

We've had OG 1 year now... Bridges/KAT less than a whole year. That should be enough! Fire Thibs! Stop the insanity!

Boston also has 5 guys who have been all stars. 5! Horford, Brown, Tatum, KP, Jrue.

They also have 4 guys who have been in the top 10 for Defensive player of the year. Horford, Derrick White, Jrue, Jaylen.

And 2 guys on all NBA teams.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs only wins cause of the talent on the team. What do you think Joe Mazzulla is doing?

martin wrote:Boston also has 5 guys who have been all stars. 5! Horford, Brown, Tatum, KP, Jrue.

They also have 4 guys who have been in the top 10 for Defensive player of the year. Horford, Derrick White, Jrue, Jaylen.

And 2 guys on all NBA teams.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs only wins cause of the talent on the team. What do you think Joe Mazzulla is doing?

right... been awhile since we heard how Spo was the best in the league. I guess he forgot how to coach as well and his teams always cough up leads to us because Spo refuses to make in game adjustments and just sticks with his guys (sorry it's just fun to parrot the same straw arguments and stick them on other teams)

martin wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.

You think Thibs teams in NY and Minny had enough talent to get past the second round? Explain why you think they should have, I’m interested.

You keep repeating stuff that is very easy to figure out, take some time to figure it out.

I get that you are not entertained but that a you thing.

Thibs built that team in Minny, not Layden. Of course I expect the person who built the roster and coached it to take a big share of the blame for the lack of success.

Its been reported that Thibs has a good deal of sway over the roster in NY as well. You get the players you want, you coach them to early exists every year. Of course I put the results on Thibs. Why would he get a pass for all the early exits? Every single one?

The season Randle tore up his ankle, he was already hurt, and asked Thibs to go back in during garbage, right before the playoffs were about to begin. Aggravated his injury, needed surgery in the offseason. This is the only way he seems to know how to coach "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead". I dont find early exits very entertaining.

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. Is it so crazy to want to see Thibs change things up? Listen to his starters who are saying that they're gassed from league leading minutes. Hart used to complain if he were taken out the game, but even he's reached a point where its taking its toll, and were still a month or so from the playoffs.

That’s just some faux level bluster and a lack of knowing what happened in Minny. That’s on you. Like, just look up their history instead of blathering about.

Thibs took over a 29-53 team that had not been to the playoffs in more than a decade. Within 2 years, they are 47-35. The following year Minny moved on from Thibs.

Why is your expectation that the Minny and NY Teams should have gotten past the second rounds?

You skipped that part and did some poor redirection.

I think you might inadvertently be providing the opposite point. What happened to Minny after they moved on from Thibs? Conference Finals. So maybe he is the right coach to turn around a crappy team and to make them into a good one. A playoff contender. A second round exit team. But to get further you need a different coach. I am now thinking that myself. Thibs will have his chance this playoffs to level up. I guess the best thing at this point is to give him the courtesy to have a chance to do so

Less day time vodka bro. Well, at least while posting on Thibs.

Thibs took over a 29-53 team in 2016-17. His first year they were 31-51 and then got to 47-35. He was dismissed the next year, in 2018-19 going 19-21 himself while Saunders finished out the year at 17-25. The next 2 years of Sauders? 19-45, 23-49.

They got to conference finals 5 years after Thibs left. Last year.

Waaaaay less day time drinking, but don't cut it off entirely cause that's life, right?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea...

If your expectations that Thibs should have gotten either the Knicks or the TWolves past the second round, it's an interesting thought. But just not for me, and it entirely ignores what was going on at the time. Context.

Point taken. I should have at least attempted to look up some facts. My apologies.

The vodka part tho I will not change. I am not a quitter!!

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.

You think Thibs teams in NY and Minny had enough talent to get past the second round? Explain why you think they should have, I’m interested.

You keep repeating stuff that is very easy to figure out, take some time to figure it out.

I get that you are not entertained but that a you thing.

Thibs built that team in Minny, not Layden. Of course I expect the person who built the roster and coached it to take a big share of the blame for the lack of success.

Its been reported that Thibs has a good deal of sway over the roster in NY as well. You get the players you want, you coach them to early exists every year. Of course I put the results on Thibs. Why would he get a pass for all the early exits? Every single one?

The season Randle tore up his ankle, he was already hurt, and asked Thibs to go back in during garbage, right before the playoffs were about to begin. Aggravated his injury, needed surgery in the offseason. This is the only way he seems to know how to coach "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead". I dont find early exits very entertaining.

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. Is it so crazy to want to see Thibs change things up? Listen to his starters who are saying that they're gassed from league leading minutes. Hart used to complain if he were taken out the game, but even he's reached a point where its taking its toll, and were still a month or so from the playoffs.

That’s just some faux level bluster and a lack of knowing what happened in Minny. That’s on you. Like, just look up their history instead of blathering about.

Thibs took over a 29-53 team that had not been to the playoffs in more than a decade. Within 2 years, they are 47-35. The following year Minny moved on from Thibs.

Why is your expectation that the Minny and NY Teams should have gotten past the second rounds?

You skipped that part and did some poor redirection.

How far did they go Martin? You seem to share Thibs’s philosophy that the regular season is all that matters. I have yet to hear you acknowledge that a 14 year gap between deep runs in the playoffs, could be attributed to coaching, or roster building moves. Just a victim of circumstance.

Sorry dude, I don’t buy that. Getting to the playoffs is one thing, avoiding an early exit is another. Takes the right players, and the right strategy. Riding your starters harder than any team in the last 33 years is not what I consider a winning strategy. Will be happy to be proven wrong.

Good Luck tomorrow

Those are your thoughts, not mine.

Thibs got a franchise that hadn’t been to the playoffs in a decade, that’s the accomplishment. In year two of a flailing franchise, that’s extraordinary.

Just as with getting a Julius lead team with Noel and Elfrid in the starting lineup to the 4th seed. As a comparison, Spo can’t get Miami with Tyler Herro, Rozier, Robinson, and Bam to the 10th seed with much better overall talent and lots of playoff experience in all of them, for instance. That’s called context.

The year Minny got to the playoffs, they lost to a 65 win Houston team with prime CP3 and Harden. By your logic, Thibs should have somehow gotten past the second round at some point? With those teams?

Or did you just not understand the context of what you are trying to talk about there?

Still not understanding why you would think it’s reasonable that Thibs should have gotten to the second round with the likes of those teams. Help me understand your thinking there.

Or scrap it.

Which Minny and NY teams do you think should have gotten past the second round. Be clear by stating the years, that’ll help.

The year that the Knicks trounced Cleveland and then lost to a Miami team that was talented enough to make it to the finals or the one that started Noel and Elfrid? Or the Minny one that got to spiked by a 65 win Houston team in their first playoffs in a decade?

Some coaches are good at rebuilding a team, making them competitive in the regular season. Give them a sense of discipline. Some are good at taking a good team, and making them contenders. Over the span of Thibs career, he’s proven that he is a good rebuilding coach. But even with complete control of the roster, he hasn’t demonstrated that he can build or lead a contender.

As far as Minny, there were dust ups with players. It wasn’t just wins and losses. Thibs is starting to hear it from his starters in NY. Mainly because he doubled down on playing the starters league leading minutes. You make it all sound so reasonable that we have a starting unit that plays the most minutes in the league. No one leans on his starters more than Thibs. That’s a fact. I believe it’s a big driver of the lack of postseason success, that and the lousy 3pt D. All I hear is that Thibs can do no wrong, and his record as a head coach has nothing to do with his decision making.