Knicks · Fire Thibs (page 48)

martin wrote:

jaydh wrote:

franco12 wrote:but what Thibs is saying doesn't make really make sense. I mean, look at the box score and our wings play more minutes than the Celtics players he is mentioning. And that doesn't even factor in the fact we've gotten blown in most of the games, so why keep them out there.

Now- if Thibs doesn't want to say either the bench is full of scrubs he doesn't trust or they aren't good and he wants the best guys out there- ok - that is an explanation I will accept. It's not right, and I'd rather lose games and be fresh for the playoffs than drive guys into the ground - but its a fair thing for a coach to do.

exactly, you can easily go to the box scores and discredit this.

Which wing guys are you guys playing off the bench in replacement of OG, Hart, Mikal?

Give or take, Knicks bench early in the season is Payne, Deuce, Shamet, Precious, Sims, Huk. Sims, Huk are centers. Shamet was not available. Deuce was a little hurt. Precious missed 20 games.

You are down to Payne and GLeague bros and rookies. So, Dadiet, Toppin, Kolek. Those are the wing replacement options Thibs had for most of the season.

Who are you guys playing to win games? Deal in reality. It's really a no win situation for a coach and team unless you are completely AOK with losing games to get minutes for Dadiet who can't dominate a GLeague game and Toppin who is not an NBA player.

What you got?

Deuce and Shamet finally got their injury bugs kinda over and seems like minutes for the wings are starting to come down. Do not wonder why that is happening.

Down 40 against Boston, I’m, getting my scrubs out there, like Dadiet- what, is he afraid to lose by 60?

I totally get the reality that there were not better options. But I think some scrubs can hold their own for short stretches - I’m not saying go with a bunch of them all at once.

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

jaydh wrote:

franco12 wrote:but what Thibs is saying doesn't make really make sense. I mean, look at the box score and our wings play more minutes than the Celtics players he is mentioning. And that doesn't even factor in the fact we've gotten blown in most of the games, so why keep them out there.

Now- if Thibs doesn't want to say either the bench is full of scrubs he doesn't trust or they aren't good and he wants the best guys out there- ok - that is an explanation I will accept. It's not right, and I'd rather lose games and be fresh for the playoffs than drive guys into the ground - but its a fair thing for a coach to do.

exactly, you can easily go to the box scores and discredit this.

Which wing guys are you guys playing off the bench in replacement of OG, Hart, Mikal?

Give or take, Knicks bench early in the season is Payne, Deuce, Shamet, Precious, Sims, Huk. Sims, Huk are centers. Shamet was not available. Deuce was a little hurt. Precious missed 20 games.

You are down to Payne and GLeague bros and rookies. So, Dadiet, Toppin, Kolek. Those are the wing replacement options Thibs had for most of the season.

Who are you guys playing to win games? Deal in reality. It's really a no win situation for a coach and team unless you are completely AOK with losing games to get minutes for Dadiet who can't dominate a GLeague game and Toppin who is not an NBA player.

What you got?

Deuce and Shamet finally got their injury bugs kinda over and seems like minutes for the wings are starting to come down. Do not wonder why that is happening.

Down 40 against Boston, I’m, getting my scrubs out there, like Dadiet- what, is he afraid to lose by 60?

I totally get the reality that there were not better options. But I think some scrubs can hold their own for short stretches - I’m not saying go with a bunch of them all at once.

If you are worried about the Boston game, that's fair, but also not really the main topic just the side show.

Otherwise, sprout out a real wing rotation and let us know you don't mind a lot more loses. Cause it's Dadiet and Jacob Toppin and that may introduce more problems than it really solves. Those guys are not even GLeague all stars.

blkexec wrote:👀

If Kolek isnt ready next year there is no bigger need than another PG. Anytime Brunson sits it's Cam/McBride shucking 3s and KAT driving into a crowd. It's been a big problem all year and has been since we lost IQ really

ChatGPT:

Tom Thibodeau has a long-standing reputation for favoring veteran players over rookies, and there are several reasons why he might be reluctant to give young players significant minutes:

1. **Trust in Experience** – Thibs values defensive effort, discipline, and consistency, which veterans typically provide more reliably than rookies. He prefers players who already understand NBA-level schemes and don’t make as many mistakes.

2. **Win-Now Mentality** – Thibodeau is known for prioritizing winning in the short term. If he feels a rookie isn't ready to contribute to a playoff-contending team, he’s more likely to limit their minutes.

3. **Defensive Standards** – His teams are built around strong defense, and rookies often struggle with NBA defensive schemes. If a young player isn’t executing defensively, Thibs won’t hesitate to bench them.

4. **Shorter Rotations** – Thibodeau typically sticks to a tight rotation, often playing 8–9 guys heavily. If there’s already depth at a rookie’s position, they may struggle to crack the lineup.

5. **Proving Themselves in Practice** – Thibs has said in the past that players need to earn their minutes in practice. If he feels a rookie hasn’t done enough behind the scenes, they won’t see the floor much.

That said, if a rookie earns his trust—especially on the defensive end—he will play them (like Quentin Grimes and Immanuel Quickley in past seasons). But generally, he makes them wait their turn.

ToddTT wrote:Me: Why won’t Thibodeau play the rookies?

ChatGPT:

Tom Thibodeau has a long-standing reputation for favoring veteran players over rookies, and there are several reasons why he might be reluctant to give young players significant minutes:

1. **Trust in Experience** – Thibs values defensive effort, discipline, and consistency, which veterans typically provide more reliably than rookies. He prefers players who already understand NBA-level schemes and don’t make as many mistakes.

2. **Win-Now Mentality** – Thibodeau is known for prioritizing winning in the short term. If he feels a rookie isn't ready to contribute to a playoff-contending team, he’s more likely to limit their minutes.

3. **Defensive Standards** – His teams are built around strong defense, and rookies often struggle with NBA defensive schemes. If a young player isn’t executing defensively, Thibs won’t hesitate to bench them.

4. **Shorter Rotations** – Thibodeau typically sticks to a tight rotation, often playing 8–9 guys heavily. If there’s already depth at a rookie’s position, they may struggle to crack the lineup.

5. **Proving Themselves in Practice** – Thibs has said in the past that players need to earn their minutes in practice. If he feels a rookie hasn’t done enough behind the scenes, they won’t see the floor much.

That said, if a rookie earns his trust—especially on the defensive end—he will play them (like Quentin Grimes and Immanuel Quickley in past seasons). But generally, he makes them wait their turn.

My money is on all of the above, and double for #5.

ToddTT wrote:Me: Why won’t Thibodeau play the rookies?

ChatGPT:

Tom Thibodeau has a long-standing reputation for favoring veteran players over rookies, and there are several reasons why he might be reluctant to give young players significant minutes:

1. **Trust in Experience** – Thibs values defensive effort, discipline, and consistency, which veterans typically provide more reliably than rookies. He prefers players who already understand NBA-level schemes and don’t make as many mistakes.

2. **Win-Now Mentality** – Thibodeau is known for prioritizing winning in the short term. If he feels a rookie isn't ready to contribute to a playoff-contending team, he’s more likely to limit their minutes.

3. **Defensive Standards** – His teams are built around strong defense, and rookies often struggle with NBA defensive schemes. If a young player isn’t executing defensively, Thibs won’t hesitate to bench them.

4. **Shorter Rotations** – Thibodeau typically sticks to a tight rotation, often playing 8–9 guys heavily. If there’s already depth at a rookie’s position, they may struggle to crack the lineup.

5. **Proving Themselves in Practice** – Thibs has said in the past that players need to earn their minutes in practice. If he feels a rookie hasn’t done enough behind the scenes, they won’t see the floor much.

That said, if a rookie earns his trust—especially on the defensive end—he will play them (like Quentin Grimes and Immanuel Quickley in past seasons). But generally, he makes them wait their turn.

Thibs has played Hukporti quite a bit this season before he got injured. In the recent past he gave Deuce as a rookie a chance to play. Kolek id like to see more of but Deuce and Payne are both already in the rotation.

SergioNYK wrote:Let's ask ourselves what is the top ceiling for this team? I know we had championship aspirations but clearly that is not realistic this season. We are way too flawed and lack depth. So I think the ceiling is giving the Celtics a competitive series.

We all know this. Seems there is some that get caught up in euphoric runs then get bitter when it does not persist. The easy thought is when your core roster, whom only Brunson has played a full season prior to this does not gel or hits a wall then must be time for a new coach. No mind to what a change would accomplish or whom might design the schematics to execute and do it better, but just assume the open concept is an improvement.

I get the concept. "look at Cleveland!!" yes. Look at its depth. That core been together a few years now right?
yes. If its time, I trust Leon and co. to figure this out.

SergioNYK wrote:Let's ask ourselves what is the top ceiling for this team? I know we had championship aspirations but clearly that is not realistic this season. We are way too flawed and lack depth. So I think the ceiling is giving the Celtics a competitive series.

1. The top ceiling is to win a championship. That doesn’t change all season.
2. Where we are? Hoping to get out of first round. Seems like any team can blow us out.
3. Where we should be? Thinking about how our twin tower line up can be used to win that Celtics series.

ToddTT wrote:Me: Why won’t Thibodeau play the rookies?

ChatGPT:

Tom Thibodeau has a long-standing reputation for favoring veteran players over rookies, and there are several reasons why he might be reluctant to give young players significant minutes:

1. **Trust in Experience** – Thibs values defensive effort, discipline, and consistency, which veterans typically provide more reliably than rookies. He prefers players who already understand NBA-level schemes and don’t make as many mistakes.

2. **Win-Now Mentality** – Thibodeau is known for prioritizing winning in the short term. If he feels a rookie isn't ready to contribute to a playoff-contending team, he’s more likely to limit their minutes.

3. **Defensive Standards** – His teams are built around strong defense, and rookies often struggle with NBA defensive schemes. If a young player isn’t executing defensively, Thibs won’t hesitate to bench them.

4. **Shorter Rotations** – Thibodeau typically sticks to a tight rotation, often playing 8–9 guys heavily. If there’s already depth at a rookie’s position, they may struggle to crack the lineup.

5. **Proving Themselves in Practice** – Thibs has said in the past that players need to earn their minutes in practice. If he feels a rookie hasn’t done enough behind the scenes, they won’t see the floor much.

That said, if a rookie earns his trust—especially on the defensive end—he will play them (like Quentin Grimes and Immanuel Quickley in past seasons). But generally, he makes them wait their turn.

I think we can remove #3 from his resume

SergioNYK wrote:Let's ask ourselves what is the top ceiling for this team? I know we had championship aspirations but clearly that is not realistic this season. We are way too flawed and lack depth. So I think the ceiling is giving the Celtics a competitive series.

We don’t take enough 3’s to beat any of the Celtics, Cavs or Thunder. Also our perimeter D has been lacking though if OG and Mitch are both healthy and available in the playoffs that could change.

Our offense is too half-court, ISO centric. That works against 90% of the teams in the nba because we are more talented but against those top 3 teams the offense has to be different

Philc1 wrote:

SergioNYK wrote:Let's ask ourselves what is the top ceiling for this team? I know we had championship aspirations but clearly that is not realistic this season. We are way too flawed and lack depth. So I think the ceiling is giving the Celtics a competitive series.

We don’t take enough 3’s to beat any of the Celtics, Cavs or Thunder. Also our perimeter D has been lacking though if OG and Mitch are both healthy and available in the playoffs that could change.

Our offense is too half-court, ISO centric. That works against 90% of the teams in the nba because we are more talented but against those top 3 teams the offense has to be different

Good take, we beat most teams. Not always.
Look at the standings, there are but 3 teams that stand out. Out west look at how bunched all are after OKC.
In the east we hold a tenuous 3 game lead.

Indy, or even Orlando has the depth to take us in a series. Indy could grab the 3 seed.
Seems fans hate leads if unsustainable. Its bloody awful to lose a lead. Knicks still got it done vs. the Wiz on talent.

And its PhilC that does bring some clarity to consider. We have the talent. We lack the depth. We lack the chemistry. You can't trade for it. You can't starphuch it, and maybe a coaching change retards it. Its not inevitable. The Nova Thing is not absolute. Its the NBA.

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Injuries happen and opportunities arise. If his number is on the depth chart and its his time, he gets another chance. Duece is a bit banged up. Maybe he gets more time tomorrow?

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

McBride should come in for Bridges, then Kolek should spell Brunson while Bridges stays out there and replaces OG to give them a breather. Bring Bridges back in and get his mid-range game going—that’s an easy way to keep the offense balanced. Keep KAT on the floor with Mitch and run pick-and-pops, pick-and-rolls—make teams defend that.

You’re telling me giving Kolek 12 minutes is going to kill us?

And on top of that, the starters are still out there in games that are already decided. KAT tweaks his knee, and you put him back in? What are we doing?

Losing the war during the regular season just seems a little redundant

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

They literally track every practice shot. So when McBride is practicing 3s and shoot 300 with some rando assistant they have gear that tracks the makes. They knew how well McBride was shooting in the gym EXACTLY when they traded IQ.

NBA coaches dont pull guys in and out of rotations because "who knows they might get hot." That's not how good coaches manage men. That's Fizdale shit

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

shinmen wrote:I wonder how practices are going to find out if the rookies will be able to perform. We heard from players multiple times that the practices are tough mentally but not really physically.
Do the bench players have a different practice than the starters? If not how can Thibs assess if rookies are able to play against real competition?

Ask yourself how varsity coaches in high school have a good sense who on JV has it to come up to the varsity club or if D1 coaches know which high school kids may be able to succeed at the next level.

It's not an exact science but you get a feel. Do kids surprise you? Of course.

They have eyes. And experience.

You just don’t know how they will do until you put them out there, and give them some real PT, not just garbage time. That’s how “Linsanity” started. If the bench didn’t badly need a floor general, I’d understand the wait and see attitude. Would also understand if our starters weren’t leading the league in minutes. Kolek has been getting less PT than his peers on other teams.

Who is that You in that sentence? You or seasoned coaches who are at the top of their game as far as tracking analytics during practice and whatnot? Cause it's certainly not me.

There will always be Linsanity examples, that's the exception. You seem to frame Linsanity like it happens every year, while it is rather the unique, one-time exception.

You are advocating for a "win now only" position as a fan. Try anything and try it now, see if it sticks to the wall. That's not really a plan and that's OK.

Fans keep complaining that Thibs is a win-only coach and actually advocating for that exact opposite.

Deuce is the well documented reference here, not Linsanity. PG's typically take a long time to develop. Witness Nash and Billups.

You need to learn your position as well as the others and where they will be. It's a long process and throwing your players to the wolves is typically not the best development path.

Unless you are really not an advocate of development?

I’ve been against Thibs winning the regular season, at the expense of everything else. Like a deep playoff run. That means not having your starting unit play the most minutes in the league. It means giving the vets on the bench someone to push them, like Kolek.

So no, I’m definitely not in “win now” mode. I’m in “keep the starters from wearing out before the playoffs” mode. I’m in the camp that wants to give the best rookie PG we’ve had in years some experience before the playoffs. So he can be a contributor in a post season run.

Have to repeat that Thibs way of doing things had not gotten him past the second round in almost 15 years. Hard to listen to arguments that Thibs coaching philosophy shouldn’t be challenged. It’s gotten him some regular season awards, but little else as a head coach.