fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:ramtour420 wrote:DLeethal wrote:I don't want to ruin the bad vibes after the best Knick win in 25 years. I'm not sold on Thibs as the guy to take this team to the promised land or maximize their ultimate potential. I also think he's been a savior for this team and exactly what we needed to get to this point. Coaching is about as unfair a gig as there is and sometimes the extremely unfair coaching decision is the right one for the team. I kind of think that's where we stand here.
I second this notion. I feel like this team here can be a #1 offense in the league. Just need to unlock KATs passing. He could be like Jokic. That's how we should be playing. If we have a healthy mix of passing plays and ISO we could be absolutely unstoppable on O. I don't think we can ISO our way to a Championship. So far the team and Mr Brunson have been proving me wrong this playoffs and that's great :) however I don't think it's enough. If I am wrong I will be the happiest Knicks fan on the planet if we win it all
I’m with you. I’d likely originate the offense with KAT more. I really thought he would be the pivot in a 4-1 motion offense and be able to clear out to a 5 out. Seems insane that we are not doing this, given our personnel. Hart doesn’t really jive with a 5 out offense, but he brings so much intangible and finishes so well at the rim that I don’t think it matters.
we were a top 5 offense in KAT/Mikal's first year. 2 new starters. Josh in a totally new role. Top 5 offense. Vets having career years... 
1) You are factually wrong. They were not a top 5 offense. They looked like one during the first portion of the season but by any other metric, they were middle of the pack.
2) These comments are about offensive system not effectiveness. The personnel they have looks ideally situated to run a 4-1 or 5-0 offense. They instead have their own midrange and iso heavy offense, but I could see this personnel being among the highest net rating teams of all time. So, yeah, even if I agreed to Top 5, I think they have the personnel for an All Time list. My KoolAid is stronger than yours.
Knicks were 5th in the NBA in Points per 100 possessions. It's literally the golden standard for how good your offense is
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2025.htmlCeltics, OKC, Denver and Cavs were better.
Not sure what facts you are looking at
So 1) yes it's a fact and 2) how are you measuring an offensive system is you are NOT looking at how effective it is?
You are right about the ORtg. I cling very tightly to eFG and TS but I have to concede the point on PP100. I use the percentages to under the assumption that the actual ORtg will regress to the percentage over time. But this isnt what occurred this year - so I am incorrect.
Still, my comment is that I think this team could be more efficient with a 4-1 or 5-out motion offense. I think they can do more with a motion offense instead of the iso heavy model they have.
Iso is often at games end. Most teams trot out their best player and ask them to close it.
Tatum is a good one. Celtics have a chip, had a 61 win season going to Tatum to close.
Does not always happen.
WE have the top closer/clutch player in the game this year. JB is going to do it. If not, we might lose the game.
You put the ball in the hands of your best player.
fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:ramtour420 wrote:DLeethal wrote:I don't want to ruin the bad vibes after the best Knick win in 25 years. I'm not sold on Thibs as the guy to take this team to the promised land or maximize their ultimate potential. I also think he's been a savior for this team and exactly what we needed to get to this point. Coaching is about as unfair a gig as there is and sometimes the extremely unfair coaching decision is the right one for the team. I kind of think that's where we stand here.
I second this notion. I feel like this team here can be a #1 offense in the league. Just need to unlock KATs passing. He could be like Jokic. That's how we should be playing. If we have a healthy mix of passing plays and ISO we could be absolutely unstoppable on O. I don't think we can ISO our way to a Championship. So far the team and Mr Brunson have been proving me wrong this playoffs and that's great :) however I don't think it's enough. If I am wrong I will be the happiest Knicks fan on the planet if we win it all
I’m with you. I’d likely originate the offense with KAT more. I really thought he would be the pivot in a 4-1 motion offense and be able to clear out to a 5 out. Seems insane that we are not doing this, given our personnel. Hart doesn’t really jive with a 5 out offense, but he brings so much intangible and finishes so well at the rim that I don’t think it matters.
we were a top 5 offense in KAT/Mikal's first year. 2 new starters. Josh in a totally new role. Top 5 offense. Vets having career years...
1) You are factually wrong. They were not a top 5 offense. They looked like one during the first portion of the season but by any other metric, they were middle of the pack.
2) These comments are about offensive system not effectiveness. The personnel they have looks ideally situated to run a 4-1 or 5-0 offense. They instead have their own midrange and iso heavy offense, but I could see this personnel being among the highest net rating teams of all time. So, yeah, even if I agreed to Top 5, I think they have the personnel for an All Time list. My KoolAid is stronger than yours.
Knicks were 5th in the NBA in Points per 100 possessions. It's literally the golden standard for how good your offense is
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2025.htmlCeltics, OKC, Denver and Cavs were better.
Not sure what facts you are looking at
So 1) yes it's a fact and 2) how are you measuring an offensive system is you are NOT looking at how effective it is?
What was our ORTG last 2-3 months of the season? What is our ORTG in the playoffs?
DLeethal wrote:fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:ramtour420 wrote:DLeethal wrote:I don't want to ruin the bad vibes after the best Knick win in 25 years. I'm not sold on Thibs as the guy to take this team to the promised land or maximize their ultimate potential. I also think he's been a savior for this team and exactly what we needed to get to this point. Coaching is about as unfair a gig as there is and sometimes the extremely unfair coaching decision is the right one for the team. I kind of think that's where we stand here.
I second this notion. I feel like this team here can be a #1 offense in the league. Just need to unlock KATs passing. He could be like Jokic. That's how we should be playing. If we have a healthy mix of passing plays and ISO we could be absolutely unstoppable on O. I don't think we can ISO our way to a Championship. So far the team and Mr Brunson have been proving me wrong this playoffs and that's great :) however I don't think it's enough. If I am wrong I will be the happiest Knicks fan on the planet if we win it all
I’m with you. I’d likely originate the offense with KAT more. I really thought he would be the pivot in a 4-1 motion offense and be able to clear out to a 5 out. Seems insane that we are not doing this, given our personnel. Hart doesn’t really jive with a 5 out offense, but he brings so much intangible and finishes so well at the rim that I don’t think it matters.
we were a top 5 offense in KAT/Mikal's first year. 2 new starters. Josh in a totally new role. Top 5 offense. Vets having career years...
1) You are factually wrong. They were not a top 5 offense. They looked like one during the first portion of the season but by any other metric, they were middle of the pack.
2) These comments are about offensive system not effectiveness. The personnel they have looks ideally situated to run a 4-1 or 5-0 offense. They instead have their own midrange and iso heavy offense, but I could see this personnel being among the highest net rating teams of all time. So, yeah, even if I agreed to Top 5, I think they have the personnel for an All Time list. My KoolAid is stronger than yours.
Knicks were 5th in the NBA in Points per 100 possessions. It's literally the golden standard for how good your offense is
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2025.htmlCeltics, OKC, Denver and Cavs were better.
Not sure what facts you are looking at
So 1) yes it's a fact and 2) how are you measuring an offensive system is you are NOT looking at how effective it is?
What was our ORTG last 2-3 months of the season? What is our ORTG in the playoffs?
What was our ORTG last 2-3 months of the season?
Really good for missing Brunson
What is our ORTG in the playoffs?
6 wins 2 losses
Are those the two times when the cherries are ripe?
Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM.
112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
Pacers had best offensive rating in playoffs last year.
Got swept by the Celts.
We just won first 2.
DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th
for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?
"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?
fishmike wrote:DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?
The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't think Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.
That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.
ramtour420 wrote:fishmike wrote:DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?
The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't this Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.
but you cant quantify that, and when you try you both fall utterly flat. You say he's not getting the most but the results say it's a top offense. Only Det and Celtics have 3 straight trips to the semis. We have players getting better and having career years (development). Yet something doesnt look right to you.
Thibs is the driver? He's on the court? Watch the games man... the Knicks move the ball and make you defend them for a few passes BEFORE finishing with top shelf ISO play, but that's getting bailed out?
It is what's called an unsubstantiated opinion. At best cherry picked stats with small sample sizes ignoring results.
You aware of the 2 new starters as well? Some chemistry takes time... this is the push to keep a core of guys together. But you were talking about Ferrari's... go on....
fishmike wrote:ramtour420 wrote:fishmike wrote:DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?
The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't this Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.
but you cant quantify that, and when you try you both fall utterly flat. You say he's not getting the most but the results say it's a top offense. Only Det and Celtics have 3 straight trips to the semis. We have players getting better and having career years (development). Yet something doesnt look right to you. Thibs is the driver? He's on the court? Watch the games man... the Knicks move the ball and make you defend them for a few passes BEFORE finishing with top shelf ISO play, but that's getting bailed out?
It is what's called an unsubstantiated opinion. At best cherry picked stats with small sample sizes ignoring results.
You aware of the 2 new starters as well? Some chemistry takes time... this is the push to keep a core of guys together. But you were talking about Ferrari's... go on....
Yes, sir. We are both entitled to our opinions.
ramtour420 wrote:fishmike wrote:DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?
The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't think Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.
We won 51 games. How many games were we supposed to? I guessed 57 games. I was wrong.
In previous years the perception was we played over our heads. Thibs has 2 COY based on that. Teams did better than expected. Thibs has a history of that. Some say he "Fails" in the playoffs given those expectations. Not all agree.
This year he might be actually over achieving if he can pull off the upset of Boston.
ITs not just opinions, its expectations. Even Lebron/wade/allen/Bosh "Heatles" won 2 chips in 4 years together. Expectations were higher. Reality is quantifiable.
Nalod wrote:ramtour420 wrote:fishmike wrote:DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?
The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't think Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.
We won 51 games. How many games were we supposed to? I guessed 57 games. I was wrong.
In previous years the perception was we played over our heads. Thibs has 2 COY based on that. Teams did better than expected. Thibs has a history of that. Some say he "Fails" in the playoffs given those expectations. Not all agree.
This year he might be actually over achieving if he can pull off the upset of Boston.
ITs not just opinions, its expectations. Even Lebron/wade/allen/Bosh "Heatles" won 2 chips in 4 years together. Expectations were higher. Reality is quantifiable.
If you dont miss Brunson for almost a month good chance you get there
fishmike wrote:Nalod wrote:ramtour420 wrote:fishmike wrote:DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?
The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't think Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.
We won 51 games. How many games were we supposed to? I guessed 57 games. I was wrong.
In previous years the perception was we played over our heads. Thibs has 2 COY based on that. Teams did better than expected. Thibs has a history of that. Some say he "Fails" in the playoffs given those expectations. Not all agree.
This year he might be actually over achieving if he can pull off the upset of Boston.
ITs not just opinions, its expectations. Even Lebron/wade/allen/Bosh "Heatles" won 2 chips in 4 years together. Expectations were higher. Reality is quantifiable.
If you dont miss Brunson for almost a month good chance you get there
Knicks were 11-6 without Brunson and 40-25 with Brunson. Projected across the season, that's 53 wins without Brunson and 50 wins with Brunson.
Brunson had the lowest Net Rating of the starters this year during the regular season.
Absolutely not saying the Knicks are "better without Brunson" because that is dumb.
I am saying that the offense moves better than the current way Brunson plays. Both OG and Mikal picked up slack well without Brunson. The reliance on Brunson ISO stagnates and the team does better when Brunson dribbles less and passes a bit more. This is only because he is so good with his footwork and scoring that he can do this - but some of the tough, contested shots he takes early in possessions may have been better allocated to other players.
In this regard, I think this team has more upside. I think that starting the ball with KAT in the paint and letting him use his passing to find an open three or a wing getting downhill should be the first 12-16 seconds of any possession. The remaining 8 or so should let Brunson do his thing where KAT clears out to the top of the arc. You end up with a 7 footer back on defense at the end of plays and a ton of space for Brunson to work. Yes you lose rebounds. But you get more players involved on the offensive side of the ball.
I think this is the kind of upside I am talking about. I think a 4-1 motion offense unlocks it. Its possible they are working on it and it just isn't "ready" yet so they are using the PnR-ISO crutch. I think they can be even better.
Nalod wrote:ramtour420 wrote:fishmike wrote:DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?
The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't think Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.
We won 51 games. How many games were we supposed to? I guessed 57 games. I was wrong.
In previous years the perception was we played over our heads. Thibs has 2 COY based on that. Teams did better than expected. Thibs has a history of that. Some say he "Fails" in the playoffs given those expectations. Not all agree.
This year he might be actually over achieving if he can pull off the upset of Boston.
ITs not just opinions, its expectations. Even Lebron/wade/allen/Bosh "Heatles" won 2 chips in 4 years together. Expectations were higher. Reality is quantifiable.
I don't use the win/loss as a criteria for judging whether our offense has been unlocked or not. Fir that I use the total assists and also the % of field goals that were assisted. We had a few amazing passing games this season with 30 or more assists. Not sure why it hasn't become our systematic approach, but that's what I want to see more of
EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:Nalod wrote:ramtour420 wrote:fishmike wrote:DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?
The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't think Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.
We won 51 games. How many games were we supposed to? I guessed 57 games. I was wrong.
In previous years the perception was we played over our heads. Thibs has 2 COY based on that. Teams did better than expected. Thibs has a history of that. Some say he "Fails" in the playoffs given those expectations. Not all agree.
This year he might be actually over achieving if he can pull off the upset of Boston.
ITs not just opinions, its expectations. Even Lebron/wade/allen/Bosh "Heatles" won 2 chips in 4 years together. Expectations were higher. Reality is quantifiable.
If you dont miss Brunson for almost a month good chance you get there
Knicks were 11-6 without Brunson and 40-25 with Brunson. Projected across the season, that's 53 wins without Brunson and 50 wins with Brunson.
Brunson had the lowest Net Rating of the starters this year during the regular season.
Absolutely not saying the Knicks are "better without Brunson" because that is dumb.
I am saying that the offense moves better than the current way Brunson plays. Both OG and Mikal picked up slack well without Brunson. The reliance on Brunson ISO stagnates and the team does better when Brunson dribbles less and passes a bit more. This is only because he is so good with his footwork and scoring that he can do this - but some of the tough, contested shots he takes early in possessions may have been better allocated to other players.
In this regard, I think this team has more upside. I think that starting the ball with KAT in the paint and letting him use his passing to find an open three or a wing getting downhill should be the first 12-16 seconds of any possession. The remaining 8 or so should let Brunson do his thing where KAT clears out to the top of the arc. You end up with a 7 footer back on defense at the end of plays and a ton of space for Brunson to work. Yes you lose rebounds. But you get more players involved on the offensive side of the ball.
I think this is the kind of upside I am talking about. I think a 4-1 motion offense unlocks it. Its possible they are working on it and it just isn't "ready" yet so they are using the PnR-ISO crutch. I think they can be even better.
so you firing the coach to implement this vision?
fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:Nalod wrote:ramtour420 wrote:fishmike wrote:DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?
The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't think Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.
We won 51 games. How many games were we supposed to? I guessed 57 games. I was wrong.
In previous years the perception was we played over our heads. Thibs has 2 COY based on that. Teams did better than expected. Thibs has a history of that. Some say he "Fails" in the playoffs given those expectations. Not all agree.
This year he might be actually over achieving if he can pull off the upset of Boston.
ITs not just opinions, its expectations. Even Lebron/wade/allen/Bosh "Heatles" won 2 chips in 4 years together. Expectations were higher. Reality is quantifiable.
If you dont miss Brunson for almost a month good chance you get there
Knicks were 11-6 without Brunson and 40-25 with Brunson. Projected across the season, that's 53 wins without Brunson and 50 wins with Brunson.
Brunson had the lowest Net Rating of the starters this year during the regular season.
Absolutely not saying the Knicks are "better without Brunson" because that is dumb.
I am saying that the offense moves better than the current way Brunson plays. Both OG and Mikal picked up slack well without Brunson. The reliance on Brunson ISO stagnates and the team does better when Brunson dribbles less and passes a bit more. This is only because he is so good with his footwork and scoring that he can do this - but some of the tough, contested shots he takes early in possessions may have been better allocated to other players.
In this regard, I think this team has more upside. I think that starting the ball with KAT in the paint and letting him use his passing to find an open three or a wing getting downhill should be the first 12-16 seconds of any possession. The remaining 8 or so should let Brunson do his thing where KAT clears out to the top of the arc. You end up with a 7 footer back on defense at the end of plays and a ton of space for Brunson to work. Yes you lose rebounds. But you get more players involved on the offensive side of the ball.
I think this is the kind of upside I am talking about. I think a 4-1 motion offense unlocks it. Its possible they are working on it and it just isn't "ready" yet so they are using the PnR-ISO crutch. I think they can be even better.
so you firing the coach to implement this vision?
No. Who’s firing the coach? We are just talking about the offensive scheme.
I'd say there is a time to play loose and pass, and a time to reduce turnover potential in a tight game and you go with the hot guy who is getting it done.
If Jordan is rostered, you go there. Same for a Melo, A curry, a Lebron, etc.
In our case we have the best closer in the game for now. I trust he knows his options if sealed off and find who is open.
Its not one or the other.
It depends on what the defense throws at you and can the team execute the schematic.
EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:Nalod wrote:ramtour420 wrote:fishmike wrote:DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?
The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't think Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.
We won 51 games. How many games were we supposed to? I guessed 57 games. I was wrong.
In previous years the perception was we played over our heads. Thibs has 2 COY based on that. Teams did better than expected. Thibs has a history of that. Some say he "Fails" in the playoffs given those expectations. Not all agree.
This year he might be actually over achieving if he can pull off the upset of Boston.
ITs not just opinions, its expectations. Even Lebron/wade/allen/Bosh "Heatles" won 2 chips in 4 years together. Expectations were higher. Reality is quantifiable.
If you dont miss Brunson for almost a month good chance you get there
Knicks were 11-6 without Brunson and 40-25 with Brunson. Projected across the season, that's 53 wins without Brunson and 50 wins with Brunson.
Brunson had the lowest Net Rating of the starters this year during the regular season.
Absolutely not saying the Knicks are "better without Brunson" because that is dumb.
I am saying that the offense moves better than the current way Brunson plays. Both OG and Mikal picked up slack well without Brunson. The reliance on Brunson ISO stagnates and the team does better when Brunson dribbles less and passes a bit more. This is only because he is so good with his footwork and scoring that he can do this - but some of the tough, contested shots he takes early in possessions may have been better allocated to other players.
In this regard, I think this team has more upside. I think that starting the ball with KAT in the paint and letting him use his passing to find an open three or a wing getting downhill should be the first 12-16 seconds of any possession. The remaining 8 or so should let Brunson do his thing where KAT clears out to the top of the arc. You end up with a 7 footer back on defense at the end of plays and a ton of space for Brunson to work. Yes you lose rebounds. But you get more players involved on the offensive side of the ball.
I think this is the kind of upside I am talking about. I think a 4-1 motion offense unlocks it. Its possible they are working on it and it just isn't "ready" yet so they are using the PnR-ISO crutch. I think they can be even better.
so you firing the coach to implement this vision?
No. Who’s firing the coach? We are just talking about the offensive scheme.
The thread is LITERALLY named: "Fire Thibs"
Panos wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:Nalod wrote:ramtour420 wrote:fishmike wrote:DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?
The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't think Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.
We won 51 games. How many games were we supposed to? I guessed 57 games. I was wrong.
In previous years the perception was we played over our heads. Thibs has 2 COY based on that. Teams did better than expected. Thibs has a history of that. Some say he "Fails" in the playoffs given those expectations. Not all agree.
This year he might be actually over achieving if he can pull off the upset of Boston.
ITs not just opinions, its expectations. Even Lebron/wade/allen/Bosh "Heatles" won 2 chips in 4 years together. Expectations were higher. Reality is quantifiable.
If you dont miss Brunson for almost a month good chance you get there
Knicks were 11-6 without Brunson and 40-25 with Brunson. Projected across the season, that's 53 wins without Brunson and 50 wins with Brunson.
Brunson had the lowest Net Rating of the starters this year during the regular season.
Absolutely not saying the Knicks are "better without Brunson" because that is dumb.
I am saying that the offense moves better than the current way Brunson plays. Both OG and Mikal picked up slack well without Brunson. The reliance on Brunson ISO stagnates and the team does better when Brunson dribbles less and passes a bit more. This is only because he is so good with his footwork and scoring that he can do this - but some of the tough, contested shots he takes early in possessions may have been better allocated to other players.
In this regard, I think this team has more upside. I think that starting the ball with KAT in the paint and letting him use his passing to find an open three or a wing getting downhill should be the first 12-16 seconds of any possession. The remaining 8 or so should let Brunson do his thing where KAT clears out to the top of the arc. You end up with a 7 footer back on defense at the end of plays and a ton of space for Brunson to work. Yes you lose rebounds. But you get more players involved on the offensive side of the ball.
I think this is the kind of upside I am talking about. I think a 4-1 motion offense unlocks it. Its possible they are working on it and it just isn't "ready" yet so they are using the PnR-ISO crutch. I think they can be even better.
so you firing the coach to implement this vision?
No. Who’s firing the coach? We are just talking about the offensive scheme.
The thread is LITERALLY named: "Fire Thibs"
Since when do the thread discussion match the title?
EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:I don’t want to fire Thibs. The nature of this discussion is awkward because despite my desire not to fire Thibs, the points being made seem “wrong” in my opinion. 1) Coaches can get fired despite good win-loss. 50 win season is not a winning coach - need a chip to be a winning coach. Good record doesn’t equal good coach in my opinion. Semantics? I don’t think so. If you look at a coach and don’t believe they can win a chip, you should fire them unless you don’t mind not winning a chip (eg tanking). I think Thibs can win a chip but I sometimes wonder whether he is a good coach or a good taskmaster. I think he can win a chip with this team.
2) Taskmaster deserves a little embellishment. Thibs plays his players hard. He gets a lot out of players he trusts. He favors vets and gives them a long leash. He rides rookies and keeps them on a short leash. He is the kind of coach that will try to win every game. I believe the number of games he wins each season is the maximum amount he is capable of winning but might overstate how far they can go in the playoffs. He punted zero games strategically. He gave zero games away coddling his starters. Maximum effort to win. Not saying it’s wrong, but the playoff seeding may not reflect the team’s ability.
3) Prepared but not Strategic? I can’t tell whether he is a strategic coach. His team is well prepared for games. They rarely adjust. KP is 7/12 from 3 and still no one shadowing him. I see game plans and preparedness but not really adjustment. Someone cold might get the collar eventually, but more often they play through it. Trusts his vet players and doesn’t appear to overreact, but might under-react in some instances.
I’m not grabbing Mike Malone over Thibs. I would for Spo. If I look at Spo, I think you see a strategic coach that is well prepared. Similar win-loss records. Huge disparity in chips. Spo will absolutely play to make the play-in and not to win games. You will see him giveaway games, sit players, and take the loss. In the playoffs, he will run the team as far as it can go and will out-coach his peers - changing strategies quickly. He will get better draft picks from the lower seeding but will lose home court advantage. But Miami is an out of towner city anyway. I think Spo is the better coach. I think he has a more strategic vision.
Dude he's PHil Jackson part 2. Spo looks great with Lebron. So does your aunt Judy. Spo hasnt done shit since. There's 2 runs with Jimmy Butler playing out of his mind. Lots of first round exits.As for his great adjustments did you even watch the last two tourney games? 2 years ago we come from down 20 (hows that for an adjustment?) and last year what we did in the 2nd half to them was criminal. I dont want to be anything like Miami. They got lucky w/ Lebron.
If Jokic forces his way here and we win some chips it makes Thibs one of the best ever right? 
There will surely be a time we move on from him, but it's not anytime soon
Was your Phil Jackson quip intended to be an insult? Dude is a top 5 coach all time regardless of personnel. Regardless, I don't think you are valuing Spo correctly. I actually think that Spo does a lot with very little. Two finals appearances in the last 5 years isn't nothing. That's 2 more than Thibs. Always seems to have a UDFA that turns into a stud. You want to tell me that Mazzulla is benefiting from a team that was already constructed and he only had to press the go button? I'll listen to that argument. But you belittle a guy for only making the finals twice in 5 years in favor of a guy that hasn't? I'd take Spo. I would. You don't have to in my hypothetical, but lets not act like the guy can't coach.
Contextually, I thought Fish had the background of this exchange. Where my first words are I don’t want to fire Thibs. I anecdotally quip about Spoelstra. But I’ve been pretty clear about not wanting to fire Thibs BUT wanting to implement a better offense. Mutually exclusive in my opinion.
