EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:I don’t want to fire Thibs. The nature of this discussion is awkward because despite my desire not to fire Thibs, the points being made seem “wrong” in my opinion. 1) Coaches can get fired despite good win-loss. 50 win season is not a winning coach - need a chip to be a winning coach. Good record doesn’t equal good coach in my opinion. Semantics? I don’t think so. If you look at a coach and don’t believe they can win a chip, you should fire them unless you don’t mind not winning a chip (eg tanking). I think Thibs can win a chip but I sometimes wonder whether he is a good coach or a good taskmaster. I think he can win a chip with this team.
2) Taskmaster deserves a little embellishment. Thibs plays his players hard. He gets a lot out of players he trusts. He favors vets and gives them a long leash. He rides rookies and keeps them on a short leash. He is the kind of coach that will try to win every game. I believe the number of games he wins each season is the maximum amount he is capable of winning but might overstate how far they can go in the playoffs. He punted zero games strategically. He gave zero games away coddling his starters. Maximum effort to win. Not saying it’s wrong, but the playoff seeding may not reflect the team’s ability.
3) Prepared but not Strategic? I can’t tell whether he is a strategic coach. His team is well prepared for games. They rarely adjust. KP is 7/12 from 3 and still no one shadowing him. I see game plans and preparedness but not really adjustment. Someone cold might get the collar eventually, but more often they play through it. Trusts his vet players and doesn’t appear to overreact, but might under-react in some instances.
I’m not grabbing Mike Malone over Thibs. I would for Spo. If I look at Spo, I think you see a strategic coach that is well prepared. Similar win-loss records. Huge disparity in chips. Spo will absolutely play to make the play-in and not to win games. You will see him giveaway games, sit players, and take the loss. In the playoffs, he will run the team as far as it can go and will out-coach his peers - changing strategies quickly. He will get better draft picks from the lower seeding but will lose home court advantage. But Miami is an out of towner city anyway. I think Spo is the better coach. I think he has a more strategic vision.
Dude he's PHil Jackson part 2. Spo looks great with Lebron. So does your aunt Judy. Spo hasnt done shit since. There's 2 runs with Jimmy Butler playing out of his mind. Lots of first round exits.As for his great adjustments did you even watch the last two tourney games? 2 years ago we come from down 20 (hows that for an adjustment?) and last year what we did in the 2nd half to them was criminal. I dont want to be anything like Miami. They got lucky w/ Lebron.
If Jokic forces his way here and we win some chips it makes Thibs one of the best ever right? 
There will surely be a time we move on from him, but it's not anytime soon
Was your Phil Jackson quip intended to be an insult? Dude is a top 5 coach all time regardless of personnel. Regardless, I don't think you are valuing Spo correctly. I actually think that Spo does a lot with very little. Two finals appearances in the last 5 years isn't nothing. That's 2 more than Thibs. Always seems to have a UDFA that turns into a stud. You want to tell me that Mazzulla is benefiting from a team that was already constructed and he only had to press the go button? I'll listen to that argument. But you belittle a guy for only making the finals twice in 5 years in favor of a guy that hasn't? I'd take Spo. I would. You don't have to in my hypothetical, but lets not act like the guy can't coach.
Contextually, I thought Fish had the background of this exchange. Where my first words are I don’t want to fire Thibs. I anecdotally quip about Spoelstra. But I’ve been pretty clear about not wanting to fire Thibs BUT wanting to implement a better offense. Mutually exclusive in my opinion.
Panos wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:Nalod wrote:ramtour420 wrote:fishmike wrote:DLeethal wrote:Post all star break the Knicks ORTG was 112.3 22nd behind Portland, Miami, and Orlando. Playoff ORTG is 107.5, 4th worst ahead of only Miami, Orlando, and MEM. 112.3 would have been 22nd best on the season.
Oct - 3rd
Nov - 1st
Dec - 3rd
Jan - 10th
Feb - 11th
Mar - 21st
Apr - 19th
yeah and we were undefeated for a month last year. So what. Your big knock on this coach is after finishing ranked 5th for the season you are upset about a bad stretch?"Playoff ORTG is 107.5" we just finished a series against one elite defensive team and are now playing another. We are 6-2 in 8 games and undefeated on the road. I honestly am not sure what you are talking about at this point. What's your point?
The point is that when someone drives a Ferrari ( Brunson and KAT) but cannot go from zero to 60 in the time that the car is supposed to do it- the problem is the driver. Yes, Ferrari is still faster than 99% of cars on the road, but that should not be the point. The point is are you getting the max out of it? I for one don't think Thibs is getting the most out of our team offensively. Our unbelievable ISO players are bailing him out.That being said, I am impressed by what he has been able to achieve so far this year. My decision on him was solely dependant on the playoff results. He has already earned another year at least.
We won 51 games. How many games were we supposed to? I guessed 57 games. I was wrong.
In previous years the perception was we played over our heads. Thibs has 2 COY based on that. Teams did better than expected. Thibs has a history of that. Some say he "Fails" in the playoffs given those expectations. Not all agree.
This year he might be actually over achieving if he can pull off the upset of Boston.
ITs not just opinions, its expectations. Even Lebron/wade/allen/Bosh "Heatles" won 2 chips in 4 years together. Expectations were higher. Reality is quantifiable.
If you dont miss Brunson for almost a month good chance you get there
Knicks were 11-6 without Brunson and 40-25 with Brunson. Projected across the season, that's 53 wins without Brunson and 50 wins with Brunson.
Brunson had the lowest Net Rating of the starters this year during the regular season.
Absolutely not saying the Knicks are "better without Brunson" because that is dumb.
I am saying that the offense moves better than the current way Brunson plays. Both OG and Mikal picked up slack well without Brunson. The reliance on Brunson ISO stagnates and the team does better when Brunson dribbles less and passes a bit more. This is only because he is so good with his footwork and scoring that he can do this - but some of the tough, contested shots he takes early in possessions may have been better allocated to other players.
In this regard, I think this team has more upside. I think that starting the ball with KAT in the paint and letting him use his passing to find an open three or a wing getting downhill should be the first 12-16 seconds of any possession. The remaining 8 or so should let Brunson do his thing where KAT clears out to the top of the arc. You end up with a 7 footer back on defense at the end of plays and a ton of space for Brunson to work. Yes you lose rebounds. But you get more players involved on the offensive side of the ball.
I think this is the kind of upside I am talking about. I think a 4-1 motion offense unlocks it. Its possible they are working on it and it just isn't "ready" yet so they are using the PnR-ISO crutch. I think they can be even better.
so you firing the coach to implement this vision?
No. Who’s firing the coach? We are just talking about the offensive scheme.
The thread is LITERALLY named: "Fire Thibs"
that's right! No excuses... do you smell minutes police? I smell em
Can I get an AMEN
What do you know. Thibs is a genius. All those heavy mins in the regular season is paying off in these 4th quarter come backs.
blkexec wrote:What do you know. Thibs is a genius. All those heavy mins in the regular season is paying off in these 4th quarter come backs.
just think of the eye rolls if we said "this will make us better"
There is a lot to be said about pilfering the Dallas medical staff. I have no doubt. Brunson spoke glowingly and there appears to be real results here. Our guys come back well from injuries and other's like OG having a big year staying healthy.
What's ironic is you all are probably right about the offense. We run plays. It's not structured and we don't have a system. But Thibs gets results in my favorite way. He lets players be themselves. He just demands the best version.
I do think a year 2 with KAT/Brunson/Bridges/Josh/OG we see a much better offense. This shit takes time but these guys can all get better together and I expect them to.
I dunno about all those minutes...yes it seems like we are more than holding up and maybe even energized... but it's a marathon and we are sprinting right now. Maybe if we could sweep and regain some rest the minutes won't hurt us too badly - but if this goes 7 will we have anything left in the tank if we prevail? Realize we may need to do that to get by Boston so it's a double edge sword IMO.
jskinny35 wrote:I dunno about all those minutes...yes it seems like we are more than holding up and maybe even energized... but it's a marathon and we are sprinting right now. Maybe if we could sweep and regain some rest the minutes won't hurt us too badly - but if this goes 7 will we have anything left in the tank if we prevail? Realize we may need to do that to get by Boston so it's a double edge sword IMO.
not sure I understand how we are sprinting? Seems like just more of the same except the Knicks are winning in crunch time every night.
5 road wins in a row, all by 3 or less in the playoffs is wild. This is not luck. We can CLOSE
jskinny35 wrote:I dunno about all those minutes...yes it seems like we are more than holding up and maybe even energized... but it's a marathon and we are sprinting right now. Maybe if we could sweep and regain some rest the minutes won't hurt us too badly - but if this goes 7 will we have anything left in the tank if we prevail? Realize we may need to do that to get by Boston so it's a double edge sword IMO.
It's not a marathon if you get swept and sent to the beach.
fishmike wrote:jskinny35 wrote:I dunno about all those minutes...yes it seems like we are more than holding up and maybe even energized... but it's a marathon and we are sprinting right now. Maybe if we could sweep and regain some rest the minutes won't hurt us too badly - but if this goes 7 will we have anything left in the tank if we prevail? Realize we may need to do that to get by Boston so it's a double edge sword IMO.
not sure I understand how we are sprinting? Seems like just more of the same except the Knicks are winning in crunch time every night. 5 road wins in a row, all by 3 or less in the playoffs is wild. This is not luck. We can CLOSE
Sprinting means we are relying heavily on our starters and not offering them much rest by not using more of our bench (eg Precious, Shamet, etc). I do understand Thibs doesn't think they will get it done and the point is to win... but we have the concern for injuries and fatigue so just pointing out that it would be ideal if we could get the starters some bench relief while still winning enough. All this is for naught if the wheels fall off like last season's playoffs... and yes all is for naught if we don't advance (double edged sword). Maybe we need to meet in the middle and give them a little more off the bench?
blkexec wrote:What do you know. Thibs is a genius. All those heavy mins in the regular season is paying off in these 4th quarter come backs.
It's hard for the minutes police to make a case right now tbh. Knicks were one of the healthiest teams all year and continue to be now, and their dominating 4th quarters more than any team in the playoffs. They look like the freshest, most well conditioned team out there.
The only case to be made against Thibs is in relation to the offense. The defense has been phenomenal.
Thibs teams have always shown they perform their best with a defensive / physical / grit oriented approach. This team has pivoted in that direction on the fly during these playoffs, where all of a sudden they are a team that can hold Boston to 90 points in a playoff win. As every minute passes it looks like Thibs has secured his place on the bench next year, Knicks should look to making mild pivots back to size, physicality, rebounding next year. The league seems to be shifting in that direction with teams like OKC, Houston, CLE, MIN, DET and many others adopting this style with great success. Knicks seemed to be in an identity crisis this year, where they weren't the same physical team we came to know and love but were an elite offense, then the offense fell of a cliff and they weren't really anything and stuck in between. They seem to have found a groove as a grinding defensive team again, playing more double bigs, playing way more aggressive on defense (not doing 100% drop coverage).
Minutes police know this lesson well, these guys just need Thibs as their coach
martin wrote:Minutes police know this lesson well, these guys just need Thibs as their coach
The goal is to have enough in the tank to get to the Finals and out last the other team. We're still in the second round.
Bridges, and Hart, mentioned the heavy minutes. They would know. I hope we have enough in the tank to go the distance.
Pops had a completely different approach to minutes, and it served him well. We're still waiting on Thibs' strategy to pay dividends.
I believe we're still in the "wait and see what happens" phase.
GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:Minutes police know this lesson well, these guys just need Thibs as their coach
The goal is to have enough in the tank to get to the Finals and out last the other team. We're still in the second round.
Bridges, and Hart, mentioned the heavy minutes. They would know. I hope we have enough in the tank to go the distance.
Pops had a completely different approach to minutes, and it served him well. We're still waiting on Thibs' strategy to pay dividends.
I believe we're still in the "wait and see what happens" phase.
You missed the boat. It's not about that at all and you should see that by now. That line is dead.
martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:Minutes police know this lesson well, these guys just need Thibs as their coach
The goal is to have enough in the tank to get to the Finals and out last the other team. We're still in the second round.
Bridges, and Hart, mentioned the heavy minutes. They would know. I hope we have enough in the tank to go the distance.
Pops had a completely different approach to minutes, and it served him well. We're still waiting on Thibs' strategy to pay dividends.
I believe we're still in the "wait and see what happens" phase.
You missed the boat. It's not about that at all and you should see that by now. That line is dead.
Participation trophies? What am I missing here?
Isola for the win. Thibs lover, who would have knew
EwingsGlass wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:Minutes police know this lesson well, these guys just need Thibs as their coach
The goal is to have enough in the tank to get to the Finals and out last the other team. We're still in the second round.
Bridges, and Hart, mentioned the heavy minutes. They would know. I hope we have enough in the tank to go the distance.
Pops had a completely different approach to minutes, and it served him well. We're still waiting on Thibs' strategy to pay dividends.
I believe we're still in the "wait and see what happens" phase.
You missed the boat. It's not about that at all and you should see that by now. That line is dead.
Participation trophies? What am I missing here?
Boobs.
Boobs are nice, but they dont win championships. Unless its a wet T-shirt contest.
GustavBahler wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:Minutes police know this lesson well, these guys just need Thibs as their coach
The goal is to have enough in the tank to get to the Finals and out last the other team. We're still in the second round.
Bridges, and Hart, mentioned the heavy minutes. They would know. I hope we have enough in the tank to go the distance.
Pops had a completely different approach to minutes, and it served him well. We're still waiting on Thibs' strategy to pay dividends.
I believe we're still in the "wait and see what happens" phase.
You missed the boat. It's not about that at all and you should see that by now. That line is dead.
Participation trophies? What am I missing here?
Boobs.
Boobs are nice, but they dont win championships. Unless its a wet T-shirt contest.
Hmm. I need to reconsider my life choices.
But in actual response, I think the sentiment among the elders is that the extended minutes granted to worthy starters has better prepared them for the playoff grind where other teams appear to be faltering under the extended pressure.
While I tend to wish we had a more involved bench, this team is performing admirably in the 4th quarter and OT.
Last year we were injury depleted without real choices about who to play. But I think the answer is that you leave it all on the table here and now and not hold anything in reserve for the next rounds. There is 1-2 days off between games. Put your best team on the floor for as long as possible.
EwingsGlass wrote:GustavBahler wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:Minutes police know this lesson well, these guys just need Thibs as their coach
The goal is to have enough in the tank to get to the Finals and out last the other team. We're still in the second round.
Bridges, and Hart, mentioned the heavy minutes. They would know. I hope we have enough in the tank to go the distance.
Pops had a completely different approach to minutes, and it served him well. We're still waiting on Thibs' strategy to pay dividends.
I believe we're still in the "wait and see what happens" phase.
You missed the boat. It's not about that at all and you should see that by now. That line is dead.
Participation trophies? What am I missing here?
Boobs.
Boobs are nice, but they dont win championships. Unless its a wet T-shirt contest.
Hmm. I need to reconsider my life choices.
But in actual response, I think the sentiment among the elders is that the extended minutes granted to worthy starters has better prepared them for the playoff grind where other teams appear to be faltering under the extended pressure.
While I tend to wish we had a more involved bench, this team is performing admirably in the 4th quarter and OT.
Last year we were injury depleted without real choices about who to play. But I think the answer is that you leave it all on the table here and now and not hold anything in reserve for the next rounds. There is 1-2 days off between games. Put your best team on the floor for as long as possible.
Not too late to enter one! 
One of the reasons we were injury depleted last season was due to Randle being allowed to play in garbage time just before the playoffs. His ankle was hurting, and Randle ended making it a lot worse. Fans have been questioning Thibs judgement for years, because he makes it very easy.
Good benches win championsips. I dont believe ours is so bad that we have to play the starters so much.
GustavBahler wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:GustavBahler wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:Minutes police know this lesson well, these guys just need Thibs as their coach
The goal is to have enough in the tank to get to the Finals and out last the other team. We're still in the second round.
Bridges, and Hart, mentioned the heavy minutes. They would know. I hope we have enough in the tank to go the distance.
Pops had a completely different approach to minutes, and it served him well. We're still waiting on Thibs' strategy to pay dividends.
I believe we're still in the "wait and see what happens" phase.
You missed the boat. It's not about that at all and you should see that by now. That line is dead.
Participation trophies? What am I missing here?
Boobs.
Boobs are nice, but they dont win championships. Unless its a wet T-shirt contest.
Hmm. I need to reconsider my life choices.
But in actual response, I think the sentiment among the elders is that the extended minutes granted to worthy starters has better prepared them for the playoff grind where other teams appear to be faltering under the extended pressure.
While I tend to wish we had a more involved bench, this team is performing admirably in the 4th quarter and OT.
Last year we were injury depleted without real choices about who to play. But I think the answer is that you leave it all on the table here and now and not hold anything in reserve for the next rounds. There is 1-2 days off between games. Put your best team on the floor for as long as possible.
Not too late to enter one!
One of the reasons we were injury depleted last season was due to Randle being allowed to play in garbage time just before the playoffs. His ankle was hurting, and Randle ended making it a lot worse. Fans have been questioning Thibs judgement for years, because he makes it very easy.
Good benches win championsips. I dont believe ours is so bad that we have to play the starters so much.
you need 7 guys. With McBride and Mitch playing well we have it
Lol at calling Spo overrated and just brushing off two Finals appearances since LeBron because he had a B level star in Jimmy Butler. Those finals runs were extremely impressive and they knocked out way more talented teams and punched way above their weight. Knicks haven’t been to the Finals in a quarter century. You can’t just brush off Finals runs like that.
