Knicks · Who can the Knicks get to prop up their second unit offense? (page 1)

The starting 5 is really clicking, with 3 big scorers and 2 defensive role players. The bench has now converted into a defensive group that fits perfectly as long as at least one of the big 3 scorers is on the floor. But this team still lacks that 4th guy who can be relied upon. Brunson, Randle and Barrett aren’t going to play 82 games each. Quickley hasn’t been the guy I expected offensively, but his play still warrants a rotation spot. Obi will eventually come back, but he’s a complimentary scorer. So long as this group stays intact, it’s fine, but Knicks need that guy who can fill in the gaps when needed. The 4 man bench unit is Quickley, Toppin, Deuce and Hartenstein, and that’s great, but it’s either on Quickley and Toppin to provide enough consistent scoring, or we have to get someone else, and that sort of feels inevitable. It’s likely got to be a big wing or playmaking forward. We have talked about Kuzma and Oubre a lot. I’m sure there’s others out there. But it has to be a guy who can carry an offense for stretches, because our 3 are stretched very thin right now.

DRose or Cam

martin wrote:DRose or Cam

Honestly it should be Fournier, but thibs clewrly has no interest in a scorer who doesn’t play defense even in a reserve role.

I would go all in and build a trade around IQ for Derozan and make Derozan our 6th man. The defense would take a hit but Derozan can get buckets and is also an excellent passer

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:DRose or Cam

Honestly it should be Fournier, but thibs clewrly has no interest in a scorer who doesn’t play defense even in a reserve role.

Fournier's D was never stellar, but it has been better than we've seen this season.

Playing in Europe last summer, without sufficient time to recover for the NBA season. Might have been too much of a heavy lift for EF. Maybe the time off will help him get his legs back.

For now it seems like RJ is doing a lot of the scoring with bench units. Maybe when Toppin comes back he can take over that role.

Rookie wrote:I would go all in and build a trade around IQ for Derozan and make Derozan our 6th man. The defense would take a hit but Derozan can get buckets and is also an excellent passer

People keep taking about Bulls tanking but Orlando has their pick, Top 4 protected. What trade can they make that guaranties they are in the bottom 4? I think the Bulls need to sort themselves out and shake it up some, but man, they are pretty screwed.

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:I would go all in and build a trade around IQ for Derozan and make Derozan our 6th man. The defense would take a hit but Derozan can get buckets and is also an excellent passer

People keep taking about Bulls tanking but Orlando has their pick, Top 4 protected. What trade can they make that guaranties they are in the bottom 4? I think

the Bulls need to sort themselves out and shake it up some, but man, they are pretty screwed.

Derozan gets buckets because he doesnt have to play PG. Id like to see Quickley allowed to play SG for a stretch, before they consider trading him.

EwingsGlass wrote:

Rookie wrote:I would go all in and build a trade around IQ for Derozan and make Derozan our 6th man. The defense would take a hit but Derozan can get buckets and is also an excellent passer

People keep taking about Bulls tanking but Orlando has their pick, Top 4 protected. What trade can they make that guaranties they are in the bottom 4? I think the Bulls need to sort themselves out and shake it up some, but man, they are pretty screwed.

Bulls made that big no-no trade in todays league of trading multiple firsts with minimum protection for a good but not great player. Then doubled down with DeRozan and Ball. It worked for a bit when the stars aligned but left them with no flexibility going forward. For all of the heat the Knicks front office gets, the options are still endless due to having so many picks going forward. I personally am still targeting a trade like Portland did when they got Jerami Grant. Really good player on both ends who only cost a protected first. This is the type of trade the Knicks need to make to locate a really good 6th man.

Ironically the Knicks have 3 talented scorers - Fournier, Rose, Reddish, who can all up 20+ pts on a given night, all sitting on the bench right now. Not to say they need to immediately be back in the rotation, but if they are short of scoring punch at the moment, I don't see how they do better than one of those 3 guys.

What the 2nd unit really needs is Toppin+Quickley playing the 2 man game at a level resembling the last 10 games of last season. We'll see when Obi gets back, but I'm pretty down on Quickley's offensive ability ever turning the corner right now.

VDesai wrote:Ironically the Knicks have 3 talented scorers - Fournier, Rose, Reddish, who can all up 20+ pts on a given night, all sitting on the bench right now. Not to say they need to immediately be back in the rotation, but if they are short of scoring punch at the moment, I don't see how they do better than one of those 3 guys.

What the 2nd unit really needs is Toppin+Quickley playing the 2 man game at a level resembling the last 10 games of last season. We'll see when Obi gets back, but I'm pretty down on Quickley's offensive ability ever turning the corner right now.

Last year the Knicks had 4 different players score 40+ in a game and it didn’t make a difference in the win lost column at the time. One of those guys was Fournier. Rose we know can put up points from time to time. Reddish still has nice 2-way potential but can’t put it together enough and for whatever reason just doesn’t fit Thibs philosophies. We know he can win with his guys but won’t win with just anyone who can score, even in some spurts. There’s no reason Fournier can’t be used to prop up the offense against second units for 20 mpg, but he just doesn’t fit. So the Knicks need to use their resources to identify a nice piece to help the second unit. It can be a forward or wing. If it’s a true wing, Barrett should see second unit minutes at PF. But the Knicks are very vulnerable relying on 3 guys to do all of the scoring.

It’s like a balance beam or seesaw effect. Adding offense to the second unit means you have to sacrifice defense somewhere.

The reality is we will have a deficit somewhere regardless which direction we go. Add EF and defense suffers. Add deuce and offense suffers. The real question is which pain point can Thibs overcome.

We all thought if you give thibs offensive players, he can help them improve their defense. That hasn’t worked.

So thibs did the opposite. Removed the offensive roll players for defense roll players. Thibs knows how to win with defensively wired players and we needed that defense in the second unit to compliment the offensive big 3 we have.

I think we finally have a nice balance and maybe the answer is not externally but internal development. Helping deuce with his 3pt form. Help IQ change his mindset from a backup PG to a scoring 6th man. Convince RJ he can be a star like derozan without shooting 3s. Improve hart and get him more involved with his passing skills.

So many more developmental things we can do before messing with the chemistry thibs has cooked up.

I know we're thinking about how do we level up, but in all honesty a guy like Alec Burks will be available and you know he can play D and Thibs love him. And he can obviously put the ball in the bucket and get his own shot. Burks has been playing great for Detroit this year, but with Cade going down, doesn't make a lot of sense to keep him. Cam for Burks?

VDesai wrote:I know we're thinking about how do we level up, but in all honesty a guy like Alec Burks will be available and you know he can play D and Thibs love him. And he can obviously put the ball in the bucket and get his own shot. Burks has been playing great for Detroit this year, but with Cade going down, doesn't make a lot of sense to keep him. Cam for Burks?

Damn, right after I posted to leave this team alone, you bring up a weak spot for me. Love Burks when he is used right. 2 way utility knife. But right now cam is on the bench and not in rotation. Someone would have to move out of the rotation (Obi).

It’s tricky man and I love Burks. But if he’s not moving the needle much then the risk out weighs the reward.

VDesai wrote:I know we're thinking about how do we level up, but in all honesty a guy like Alec Burks will be available and you know he can play D and Thibs love him. And he can obviously put the ball in the bucket and get his own shot. Burks has been playing great for Detroit this year, but with Cade going down, doesn't make a lot of sense to keep him. Cam for Burks?

Whose minutes are you taking away and by how much to fit in a guy like Alex Burks who will not be in the long term Knicks plans?

Minutes will come from Grimes, IQ, McBride, RJ right?.

Note that Knicks will absolutely have a draft pick or 2 next year as well, and all things being equal, it'll be a wing type.

blkexec wrote:It’s like a balance beam or seesaw effect. Adding offense to the second unit means you have to sacrifice defense somewhere.

The reality is we will have a deficit somewhere regardless which direction we go. Add EF and defense suffers. Add deuce and offense suffers. The real question is which pain point can Thibs overcome.

We all thought if you give thibs offensive players, he can help them improve their defense. That hasn’t worked.

So thibs did the opposite. Removed the offensive roll players for defense roll players. Thibs knows how to win with defensively wired players and we needed that defense in the second unit to compliment the offensive big 3 we have.

I think we finally have a nice balance and maybe the answer is not externally but internal development. Helping deuce with his 3pt form. Help IQ change his mindset from a backup PG to a scoring 6th man. Convince RJ he can be a star like derozan without shooting 3s. Improve hart and get him more involved with his passing skills.

So many more developmental things we can do before messing with the chemistry thibs has cooked up.

The only issue with this is RJ and Randle are both playing near 40 minutes a game for this too work. It’s fun to be on a win streak doing it, but that isn’t sustainable for another 52 games and playoff serie(s). This team’s best players will be gassed again when it matters most. The Knicks need someone at the forward spot who can play significant minutes and get RJ/Randle down to the 32-35 minutes per night range.

I also don’t think Obi is that guy either. He is looking like an ancillary piece, not someone who can carry an offense or they can rely on to get buckets night in and out.

wargames wrote:

blkexec wrote:It’s like a balance beam or seesaw effect. Adding offense to the second unit means you have to sacrifice defense somewhere.

The reality is we will have a deficit somewhere regardless which direction we go. Add EF and defense suffers. Add deuce and offense suffers. The real question is which pain point can Thibs overcome.

We all thought if you give thibs offensive players, he can help them improve their defense. That hasn’t worked.

So thibs did the opposite. Removed the offensive roll players for defense roll players. Thibs knows how to win with defensively wired players and we needed that defense in the second unit to compliment the offensive big 3 we have.

I think we finally have a nice balance and maybe the answer is not externally but internal development. Helping deuce with his 3pt form. Help IQ change his mindset from a backup PG to a scoring 6th man. Convince RJ he can be a star like derozan without shooting 3s. Improve hart and get him more involved with his passing skills.

So many more developmental things we can do before messing with the chemistry thibs has cooked up.

The only issue with this is RJ and Randle are both playing near 40 minutes a game for this too work. It’s fun to be on a win streak doing it, but that isn’t sustainable for another 52 games and playoff serie(s). This team’s best players will be gassed again when it matters most. The Knicks need someone at the forward spot who can play significant minutes and get RJ/Randle down to the 32-35 minutes per night range.

I also don’t think Obi is that guy either. He is looking like an ancillary piece, not someone who can carry an offense or they can rely on to get buckets night in and out.

100% incorrect.

It's exactly the same amount of minutes for playoff teams. Your best players average just north of 35mpg.

Go check out the other teams, for pretty much any year, across the history of the NBA.

Come on man

win streak numbers: https://www.nba.com/stats/players/tradit...

isnt this EXACTLY what Obi is supposed to do?

wargames wrote:

blkexec wrote:It’s like a balance beam or seesaw effect. Adding offense to the second unit means you have to sacrifice defense somewhere.

The reality is we will have a deficit somewhere regardless which direction we go. Add EF and defense suffers. Add deuce and offense suffers. The real question is which pain point can Thibs overcome.

We all thought if you give thibs offensive players, he can help them improve their defense. That hasn’t worked.

So thibs did the opposite. Removed the offensive roll players for defense roll players. Thibs knows how to win with defensively wired players and we needed that defense in the second unit to compliment the offensive big 3 we have.

I think we finally have a nice balance and maybe the answer is not externally but internal development. Helping deuce with his 3pt form. Help IQ change his mindset from a backup PG to a scoring 6th man. Convince RJ he can be a star like derozan without shooting 3s. Improve hart and get him more involved with his passing skills.

So many more developmental things we can do before messing with the chemistry thibs has cooked up.

The only issue with this is RJ and Randle are both playing near 40 minutes a game for this too work. It’s fun to be on a win streak doing it, but that isn’t sustainable for another 52 games and playoff serie(s). This team’s best players will be gassed again when it matters most. The Knicks need someone at the forward spot who can play significant minutes and get RJ/Randle down to the 32-35 minutes per night range.

I also don’t think Obi is that guy either. He is looking like an ancillary piece, not someone who can carry an offense or they can rely on to get buckets night in and out.

I disagree

This game from this year (last season) shows what Obi can do if he's the number one option. He was scoring from everywhere. His teamates were feeding the hot hand.

This season Obi is being parked in the corner, as a spot up shooter. I dont see anyone really making an effort to get him going this season. But he's expected to regularly drop buckets. Like I said, this isnt Steve Novak we're talking about. Someone you leave at the arc, and forget for the most part.

Not suggesting that Obi will regularly drop 40, if he gets more touches. Im confident he'll play well enough for there to be less talk about moving him.

GustavBahler wrote:

wargames wrote:

blkexec wrote:It’s like a balance beam or seesaw effect. Adding offense to the second unit means you have to sacrifice defense somewhere.

The reality is we will have a deficit somewhere regardless which direction we go. Add EF and defense suffers. Add deuce and offense suffers. The real question is which pain point can Thibs overcome.

We all thought if you give thibs offensive players, he can help them improve their defense. That hasn’t worked.

So thibs did the opposite. Removed the offensive roll players for defense roll players. Thibs knows how to win with defensively wired players and we needed that defense in the second unit to compliment the offensive big 3 we have.

I think we finally have a nice balance and maybe the answer is not externally but internal development. Helping deuce with his 3pt form. Help IQ change his mindset from a backup PG to a scoring 6th man. Convince RJ he can be a star like derozan without shooting 3s. Improve hart and get him more involved with his passing skills.

So many more developmental things we can do before messing with the chemistry thibs has cooked up.

The only issue with this is RJ and Randle are both playing near 40 minutes a game for this too work. It’s fun to be on a win streak doing it, but that isn’t sustainable for another 52 games and playoff serie(s). This team’s best players will be gassed again when it matters most. The Knicks need someone at the forward spot who can play significant minutes and get RJ/Randle down to the 32-35 minutes per night range.

I also don’t think Obi is that guy either. He is looking like an ancillary piece, not someone who can carry an offense or they can rely on to get buckets night in and out.

I disagree

This game from this year (last season) shows what Obi can do if he's the number one option. He was scoring from everywhere. His teamates were feeding the hot hand.

This season Obi is being parked in the corner, as a spot up shooter. I dont see anyone really making an effort to get him going this season. But he's expected to regularly drop buckets. Like I said, this isnt Steve Novak we're talking about. Someone you leave at the arc, and forget for the most part.

Not suggesting that Obi will regularly drop 40, if he gets more touches. Im confident he'll play well enough for there to be less talk about moving him.

trash time... those end of year games are fun but dont match real NBA intensity. IQ also finished with triple doubles and he's again painfully struggle to put the ball in the basket.

Obi hasnt really shown any of that this year beside hitting more 3s for a stretch. Would love to see it, but we have not SEEN it except in extended garbage time

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

wargames wrote:

blkexec wrote:It’s like a balance beam or seesaw effect. Adding offense to the second unit means you have to sacrifice defense somewhere.

The reality is we will have a deficit somewhere regardless which direction we go. Add EF and defense suffers. Add deuce and offense suffers. The real question is which pain point can Thibs overcome.

We all thought if you give thibs offensive players, he can help them improve their defense. That hasn’t worked.

So thibs did the opposite. Removed the offensive roll players for defense roll players. Thibs knows how to win with defensively wired players and we needed that defense in the second unit to compliment the offensive big 3 we have.

I think we finally have a nice balance and maybe the answer is not externally but internal development. Helping deuce with his 3pt form. Help IQ change his mindset from a backup PG to a scoring 6th man. Convince RJ he can be a star like derozan without shooting 3s. Improve hart and get him more involved with his passing skills.

So many more developmental things we can do before messing with the chemistry thibs has cooked up.

The only issue with this is RJ and Randle are both playing near 40 minutes a game for this too work. It’s fun to be on a win streak doing it, but that isn’t sustainable for another 52 games and playoff serie(s). This team’s best players will be gassed again when it matters most. The Knicks need someone at the forward spot who can play significant minutes and get RJ/Randle down to the 32-35 minutes per night range.

I also don’t think Obi is that guy either. He is looking like an ancillary piece, not someone who can carry an offense or they can rely on to get buckets night in and out.

I disagree

This game from this year (last season) shows what Obi can do if he's the number one option. He was scoring from everywhere. His teamates were feeding the hot hand.

This season Obi is being parked in the corner, as a spot up shooter. I dont see anyone really making an effort to get him going this season. But he's expected to regularly drop buckets. Like I said, this isnt Steve Novak we're talking about. Someone you leave at the arc, and forget for the most part.

Not suggesting that Obi will regularly drop 40, if he gets more touches. Im confident he'll play well enough for there to be less talk about moving him.

trash time... those end of year games are fun but dont match real NBA intensity. IQ also finished with triple doubles and he's again painfully struggle to put the ball in the basket.

Obi hasnt really shown any of that this year beside hitting more 3s for a stretch. Would love to see it, but we have not SEEN it except in extended garbage time

I would also argue IQ has shown to be more consistent in his career. He might be going through a cold stretch but with Obi we’ve only seen flashes.