We can make a lot of the last 2 months with the win streaks and losing streaks, but the bottom line is the Knicks are good when their top 6 guys all play and bad when one or more of them don’t. How the team approaches this at the deadline will be interesting. Knicks aren’t upgrading their starting 5 when healthy. It would require a star trade. The bench is the opportunity outside of Quickley. Knicks could just try and weather the storm and hope Mitch comes back well and no one else gets hurt. They hang around .500 and call this season a small step forward. Or they can use the protected picks that aren’t proving valuable for a big star trade and add the pieces that make the margin for error a little better. For example, Knicks could deal Hartenstein and 2 protected picks (let’s say the lesser of the Knicks/ Dallas pick and any one of the Wash/Det/Mil picks) for Jakob Poeltl right now. That’s the asking price. Then they could trade Rose and Reddish and the 2 remaining protected picks for Rozier, or the same package of players along with just 1 of those picks for Eric Gordon. So the bench is IQ, Gordon (or Rozier), Toppin and Poeltl. And if someone outside of Brunson or Randle is out then you’re not worse off. Is this smart? Probably not to this extent, but all I’m saying is you can get better now without sacrificing any of our own picks (saved for the star trade) and the top 6 guys on this team are insured so to speak. Summing all this up, I’m very curious to see what the Knicks do at the deadline, because there’s an opportunity to lock in a playoff spot but the Knicks top 6 will need some support in the meantime.
And I totally get the challenge in trading for a guy like Poeltl. He’s a free agent who wants the big bucks this offseason. Not sure if the Knicks would pay 2 centers. Just saying these options are out there.
We need some depth pieces. That is totally doable by the trade deadline. 2 rotation players would be good. In hindsight, we should have moved Fournier instead of Burks. I totally admit I was happy to see Burks gone at the time just so Thibs couldn't use him as a PG
Knixkik wrote:We can make a lot of the last 2 months with the win streaks and losing streaks, but the bottom line is the Knicks are good when their top 6 guys all play and bad when one or more of them don’t. How the team approaches this at the deadline will be interesting. Knicks aren’t upgrading their starting 5 when healthy. It would require a star trade. The bench is the opportunity outside of Quickley. Knicks could just try and weather the storm and hope Mitch comes back well and no one else gets hurt. They hang around .500 and call this season a small step forward. Or they can use the protected picks that aren’t proving valuable for a big star trade and add the pieces that make the margin for error a little better. For example, Knicks could deal Hartenstein and 2 protected picks (let’s say the lesser of the Knicks/ Dallas pick and any one of the Wash/Det/Mil picks) for Jakob Poeltl right now. That’s the asking price. Then they could trade Rose and Reddish and the 2 remaining protected picks for Rozier, or the same package of players along with just 1 of those picks for Eric Gordon. So the bench is IQ, Gordon (or Rozier), Toppin and Poeltl. And if someone outside of Brunson or Randle is out then you’re not worse off. Is this smart? Probably not to this extent, but all I’m saying is you can get better now without sacrificing any of our own picks (saved for the star trade) and the top 6 guys on this team are insured so to speak. Summing all this up, I’m very curious to see what the Knicks do at the deadline, because there’s an opportunity to lock in a playoff spot but the Knicks top 6 will need some support in the meantime.
For me, I don't think the Knicks solely focus on how to make the team better just for this year. So for instance, let's say there is a hypothetical, in-a-vacuum trade for Rozier ($23M this year, increasing up to $26.5 in 2025) that kinda-sort makes sense for both team. The question for me would be, does it really fit into their long term plan? Lots of assumptions and things absolutely change, but that's my perspective and guess.
My best inclination is that, barring some major changes (like some team giving the Knicks an over the top, many multiple first round picks and a young player like Kuminga for Randle trade), the Knicks will most likely want to upgrade their team via the free agent market of 2024 (and maybe even push that to 2025 depending on how things shake out). That's probably the best way to add talent with the lowest amount of cost, just like with Jalen - it's really the only way to upgrade the talent with a large enough step forward without straight tanking.
So, if you think that may be the course the Knicks take (and maybe they don't), it'll narrow the choices of the type of player and contract you target and take on.
That's my guess as to why they are looking to understand the market value for both Obi and IQ - their extensions and cap holds effect summer 2024 salary cap expectations.
As soon as you trade for a Rozier type (contract past summer 2024), free agent market goes away for you and it's a whole new set of avenues you are geared towards (and maybe you have planned for that too).
not trying to be a debbie downer but i don't like the suggestions.
We need shooting more than scoring. We have enough people who want the ball in their hands as it is -- don't see Rozier being an improvement
We need a situational shooter, and if we're getting a scorer instead we need someone with big brass ones. right now Jalen is our only clutch player
I think we are wasting our time trying to trade for more/better bench support. We have Obi, IQ, Sims. D. Rose, (Cam), Deuce and Fournier available if we decide to play them. We have had to move some bench players up due to injuries (eg IQ) recently but that will return to normal soon.
If there is any move to make it's to package RJ or Randle (or both) if it can help us acquire a higher level player. Why get rid of a young and solid bench when we know we need to first upgrade some starting positions first. Then the fit to support the starters can be determined.
Brunson, Grimes and Mitch appear to be solid enough if we can improve the consistency/efficiency from RJ and Randle. After 4 seasons worth they are what they are - good to very good players that are streaky offensively and hold the ball too much. If that desired player is not there/available - we should stand pat and try to land that player in this upcoming draft which is supposed to be very deep.
Yes we suck at picking 1-10 but seem to do well in the teens and higher. Package an RJ or Randle, with our pick (and add the Dallas pick) to move up and find a forward that is better then RJ and/or Randle. Gutting the youth/bench in hopes of thinking more veteran bench players will get us to the 2nd round with RJ and Randle is pointless IMO.
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:We can make a lot of the last 2 months with the win streaks and losing streaks, but the bottom line is the Knicks are good when their top 6 guys all play and bad when one or more of them don’t. How the team approaches this at the deadline will be interesting. Knicks aren’t upgrading their starting 5 when healthy. It would require a star trade. The bench is the opportunity outside of Quickley. Knicks could just try and weather the storm and hope Mitch comes back well and no one else gets hurt. They hang around .500 and call this season a small step forward. Or they can use the protected picks that aren’t proving valuable for a big star trade and add the pieces that make the margin for error a little better. For example, Knicks could deal Hartenstein and 2 protected picks (let’s say the lesser of the Knicks/ Dallas pick and any one of the Wash/Det/Mil picks) for Jakob Poeltl right now. That’s the asking price. Then they could trade Rose and Reddish and the 2 remaining protected picks for Rozier, or the same package of players along with just 1 of those picks for Eric Gordon. So the bench is IQ, Gordon (or Rozier), Toppin and Poeltl. And if someone outside of Brunson or Randle is out then you’re not worse off. Is this smart? Probably not to this extent, but all I’m saying is you can get better now without sacrificing any of our own picks (saved for the star trade) and the top 6 guys on this team are insured so to speak. Summing all this up, I’m very curious to see what the Knicks do at the deadline, because there’s an opportunity to lock in a playoff spot but the Knicks top 6 will need some support in the meantime.
For me, I don't think the Knicks solely focus on how to make the team better just for this year. So for instance, let's say there is a hypothetical, in-a-vacuum trade for Rozier ($23M this year, increasing up to $26.5 in 2025) that kinda-sort makes sense for both team. The question for me would be, does it really fit into their long term plan? Lots of assumptions and things absolutely change, but that's my perspective and guess.
My best inclination is that, barring some major changes (like some team giving the Knicks an over the top, many multiple first round picks and a young player like Kuminga for Randle trade), the Knicks will most likely want to upgrade their team via the free agent market of 2024 (and maybe even push that to 2025 depending on how things shake out). That's probably the best way to add talent with the lowest amount of cost, just like with Jalen - it's really the only way to upgrade the talent with a large enough step forward without straight tanking.
So, if you think that may be the course the Knicks take (and maybe they don't), it'll narrow the choices of the type of player and contract you target and take on.
That's my guess as to why they are looking to understand the market value for both Obi and IQ - their extensions and cap holds effect summer 2024 salary cap expectations.
As soon as you trade for a Rozier type (contract past summer 2024), free agent market goes away for you and it's a whole new set of avenues you are geared towards (and maybe you have planned for that too).
Totally agree. To me the best way to upgrade is to go the avenue like Brunson, along with using protected picks for guys headed into the last year of their contracts. Jerami grant is a great example. The Milwaukee pick we own was the cost for him. Getting a guy like that off the bench upgrades the team in a major way.
Chandler wrote:not trying to be a debbie downer but i don't like the suggestions.We need shooting more than scoring. We have enough people who want the ball in their hands as it is -- don't see Rozier being an improvement
We need a situational shooter, and if we're getting a scorer instead we need someone with big brass ones. right now Jalen is our only clutch player
Nothing wrong with disagreeing. My post was more a scenario than a suggestion. I’m not sure quite yet how I’d go forward. But I just know good players are available right now for protected first round picks (much better than Cam this time last year ) and Knicks will either use these picks in a trade for a player or continue to kick the can and move them on draft day for future assets. Knicks arent drafting 2 players in the first round this year plus bringing in Rokas. They are moving either their pick or the Dallas pick. I’d like to move a pick (non-Knicks pick unless it’s the lesser of the 2 picks with some steep protections ) and get a good player now. Better for the culture. So let’s just say a pick this summer that is top 18 protected or it rolls over to one of the other future picks. Something along those lines along with the contract of Rose and/or Reddish. Good players are available for that offer.
Chandler wrote:not trying to be a debbie downer but i don't like the suggestions.We need shooting more than scoring. We have enough people who want the ball in their hands as it is -- don't see Rozier being an improvement
We need a situational shooter, and if we're getting a scorer instead we need someone with big brass ones. right now Jalen is our only clutch player
Yep, we have enough high usage scorers. We don't have enough high percentage shooters. RJ is the biggest issue on the roster. His inefficent high usage play is killing the team.
Jmpasq wrote:Chandler wrote:not trying to be a debbie downer but i don't like the suggestions.We need shooting more than scoring. We have enough people who want the ball in their hands as it is -- don't see Rozier being an improvement
We need a situational shooter, and if we're getting a scorer instead we need someone with big brass ones. right now Jalen is our only clutch player
Yep, we have enough high usage scorers. We don't have enough high percentage shooters. RJ is the biggest issue on the roster. His inefficent high usage play is killing the team.
Outside of the beginning of the season he’s been far more efficient.
On the Poeltl point, his cost will likely be 2 protected first round picks (price may come down to 1) and resigning him for 4 years 80 mil. So 20 mil a year. He’s an excellent center in the Mitch neighborhood as far as impact. Would it be the worst thing to pay him and Mitch? Have them both for half the game and essentially have insurance for the 25 or so games Mitch misses a year ? Mitch has a declining contract. So if you have both making about 35 mil a year combined, that’s less combined than you are going to pay Porzingis, which has been suggested around here. For a thibs team, having Mitch and Poeltl plus Sims as the cheap yearly 3rd string keeps the anchor of the defense strong for the entire season.
Chandler wrote:not trying to be a debbie downer but i don't like the suggestions.We need shooting more than scoring. We have enough people who want the ball in their hands as it is -- don't see Rozier being an improvement
We need a situational shooter, and if we're getting a scorer instead we need someone with big brass ones. right now Jalen is our only clutch player
Sign Yuta Watanabe next offseason
If Thibs doesn't come up with an answer for Robinson being out soon, the Knicks will be fighting for the 10 seed by the time Robinson comes back. Starting Sims is a pretty strong indictment of the failure of the Hart signing. Can the Knicks toss Cleveland Cam Reddish for Robin Lopez?
gradyandrew wrote:If Thibs doesn't come up with an answer for Robinson being out soon, the Knicks will be fighting for the 10 seed by the time Robinson comes back. Starting Sims is a pretty strong indictment of the failure of the Hart signing. Can the Knicks toss Cleveland Cam Reddish for Robin Lopez?
The answer is sneak tank! 
gradyandrew wrote:If Thibs doesn't come up with an answer for Robinson being out soon, the Knicks will be fighting for the 10 seed by the time Robinson comes back. Starting Sims is a pretty strong indictment of the failure of the Hart signing. Can the Knicks toss Cleveland Cam Reddish for Robin Lopez?
Another name (besides Poeltl) is Mo Bamba on the lower side. Clearly better than Hartenstein. Very gettable and has a team option next year.
Chandler wrote:not trying to be a debbie downer but i don't like the suggestions.We need shooting more than scoring. We have enough people who want the ball in their hands as it is -- don't see Rozier being an improvement
We need a situational shooter, and if we're getting a scorer instead we need someone with big brass ones. right now Jalen is our only clutch player
Good way of putting it...& I agree.
Have to add this though, that if the ball isn't rotating or being kicked out, such shooters will have minimal value.
Grimes, for instance, needs more good touches when he's open & in position to shoot. He's averaging almost 30MPG but only averages 8 shots/game. Not good.
gradyandrew wrote:If Thibs doesn't come up with an answer for Robinson being out soon, the Knicks will be fighting for the 10 seed by the time Robinson comes back. Starting Sims is a pretty strong indictment of the failure of the Hart signing. Can the Knicks toss Cleveland Cam Reddish for Robin Lopez?
I'd love to get him back. He is solid and a total Thibs player. Not the shiny new toy but might be the best bang for the buck at the C position. Screw Porkzingis
jskinny35 wrote:I think we are wasting our time trying to trade for more/better bench support. We have Obi, IQ, Sims. D. Rose, (Cam), Deuce and Fournier available if we decide to play them. We have had to move some bench players up due to injuries (eg IQ) recently but that will return to normal soon.If there is any move to make it's to package RJ or Randle (or both) if it can help us acquire a higher level player. Why get rid of a young and solid bench when we know we need to first upgrade some starting positions first. Then the fit to support the starters can be determined.
Brunson, Grimes and Mitch appear to be solid enough if we can improve the consistency/efficiency from RJ and Randle. After 4 seasons worth they are what they are - good to very good players that are streaky offensively and hold the ball too much. If that desired player is not there/available - we should stand pat and try to land that player in this upcoming draft which is supposed to be very deep.
Yes we suck at picking 1-10 but seem to do well in the teens and higher. Package an RJ or Randle, with our pick (and add the Dallas pick) to move up and find a forward that is better then RJ and/or Randle. Gutting the youth/bench in hopes of thinking more veteran bench players will get us to the 2nd round with RJ and Randle is pointless IMO.
Building around RJ and Randle experiment hasn’t been working. Some blame the bench. Some blame thibs. I just think it’s not about blame it’s about fit. We’ve had 4yrs to evaluate them and I’m not seeing how we can build a consistent team with RJ and Randle as the top dogs when they are not consistent on offense or defense.
CleaverGreene wrote:Chandler wrote:not trying to be a debbie downer but i don't like the suggestions.We need shooting more than scoring. We have enough people who want the ball in their hands as it is -- don't see Rozier being an improvement
We need a situational shooter, and if we're getting a scorer instead we need someone with big brass ones. right now Jalen is our only clutch player
Good way of putting it...& I agree.
Have to add this though, that if the ball isn't rotating or being kicked out, such shooters will have minimal value.
Grimes, for instance, needs more good touches when he's open & in position to shoot. He's averaging almost 30MPG but only averages 8 shots/game. Not good.
Agree. I believe though If the guy had a reliable shot the ball would find him. Grimes has been tantalizing but inconsistent shooter
Im starting to wonder if we are just a low IQ team. I don’t really know how you measure basketball intelligence but we do some really dumb stuff late in games. I’ve read that Brunson is a smart player and probably IQ as well but I’m not sure about the rest of the team. I’m not even sure if being smart in the nba means your just not as dumb. Maybe it’s a leadership issue. If Brunson is the leader but always defers to Randle, is he really the leader or is Randle the leader who doesn’t lead. So many questions.
I don't think guys like Poeltl move the needle much. This team needs a Super Star.
