Knicks · R.J. Barrett vs. Kobe Bryant (1st 4 Years of NBA Play). (page 7)
Ira wrote:Good thread. RJ does deserve more patience from us New Yorkers.
And we should achieve that by making unrealistic comparisons to HOFers?
BigDaddyG wrote:NYKMentality wrote:That's cool. Isn't there another stat you want to throw in there tho?PS: 4th year Kobe's Turnover Percentage = 11.8% off of a 26.8% Usage Rate vs. 4th year Barrett's Turnover Percentage = 10.7% off of a 26.0% Usage Rate.
Which one, being blessed with Phil Jackson as the greatest HC of All-Time + the most dominant Center that I've ever (personally) witnessed All-Time in Shaq O'Neal while on their way to a NBA Championship?
In all seriousness Kobe or no Kobe to have the amount of Points Scored, Rebounds and Assists (combined) that R.J. Barrett has been able to total thus far and before the age of only 23 ala 4,493 Points, 1,372 Rebounds and 712 Assists is pretty damn (rare) impressive to me.
It's cool to watch this kids games under a microscope, it's cool to harp all over his 1st half vs. Utah while ignoring his 2nd half performance vs. Utah etc etc to each their own.
But just understand I know he's still 4 years away from entering his prime and man oh man can I not wait until he's 26 years old because as of right now he's yet to even scratch the surface of his NBA Career.
He's the only 20+ PPG 3rd option within the entire league and his potential is scary. It goes through the roof. Because if he's already averaging 20+ @ only 22? What happens once his Shooting Efficiency improves?
This young man easily becomes a 25+ PPG scorer.
BigDaddyG wrote:Ira wrote:Good thread. RJ does deserve more patience from us New Yorkers.And we should achieve that by making unrealistic comparisons to HOFers?
I don't think Kobe Bryant was a HOF player during only his 4th NBA season. For a matter of fact, I know he wasn't anywhere near a "HOF PLAYER" during only his 4th Year.
NYKMentality wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:NYKMentality wrote:That's cool. Isn't there another stat you want to throw in there tho?
PS: 4th year Kobe's Turnover Percentage = 11.8% off of a 26.8% Usage Rate vs. 4th year Barrett's Turnover Percentage = 10.7% off of a 26.0% Usage Rate.Which one, being blessed with Phil Jackson as the greatest HC of All-Time + the most dominant Center that I've ever (personally) witnessed All-Time in Shaq O'Neal while on their way to a NBA Championship?
In all seriousness Kobe or no Kobe to have the amount of Points Scored, Rebounds and Assists (combined) that R.J. Barrett has been able to total thus far and before the age of only 23 ala 4,493 Points, 1,372 Rebounds and 712 Assists is pretty damn (rare) impressive to me.
It's cool to watch this kids games under a microscope, it's cool to harp all over his 1st half vs. Utah while ignoring his 2nd half performance vs. Utah etc etc to each their own.
But just understand I know he's still 4 years away from entering his prime and man oh man can I not wait until he's 26 years old because as of right now he's yet to even scratch the surface of his NBA Career.
He's the only 20+ PPG 3rd option within the entire league and his potential is scary. It goes through the roof. Because if he's already averaging 20+ @ only 22? What happens once his Shooting Efficiency improves?
This young man easily becomes a 25+ PPG scorer.
Naw, the one where Kobe's assist percentage is double RJs in season 4. No one is buying this no matter how many stats you cherry pick.
NYKMentality wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Ira wrote:Good thread. RJ does deserve more patience from us New Yorkers.And we should achieve that by making unrealistic comparisons to HOFers?I don't think Kobe Bryant was a HOF player during only his 4th NBA season. For a matter of fact, I know he wasn't anywhere near a "HOF PLAYER" during only his 4th Year.
Fine. But he was miles above RJ.
BigDaddyG wrote:NYKMentality wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Which one, being blessed with Phil Jackson as the greatest HC of All-Time + the most dominant Center that I've ever (personally) witnessed All-Time in Shaq O'Neal while on their way to a NBA Championship?NYKMentality wrote:That's cool. Isn't there another stat you want to throw in there tho?
PS: 4th year Kobe's Turnover Percentage = 11.8% off of a 26.8% Usage Rate vs. 4th year Barrett's Turnover Percentage = 10.7% off of a 26.0% Usage Rate.In all seriousness Kobe or no Kobe to have the amount of Points Scored, Rebounds and Assists (combined) that R.J. Barrett has been able to total thus far and before the age of only 23 ala 4,493 Points, 1,372 Rebounds and 712 Assists is pretty damn (rare) impressive to me.
It's cool to watch this kids games under a microscope, it's cool to harp all over his 1st half vs. Utah while ignoring his 2nd half performance vs. Utah etc etc to each their own.
But just understand I know he's still 4 years away from entering his prime and man oh man can I not wait until he's 26 years old because as of right now he's yet to even scratch the surface of his NBA Career.
He's the only 20+ PPG 3rd option within the entire league and his potential is scary. It goes through the roof. Because if he's already averaging 20+ @ only 22? What happens once his Shooting Efficiency improves?
This young man easily becomes a 25+ PPG scorer.
Naw, the one where Kobe's assist percentage is double RJs in season 4. No one is buying this no matter how many stats you cherry pick.
How many of his assists were forced fed to an impossible to stop Shaq O'Neal? Give me the numbers.
PS:
During Kobe's 250th Career Game (4th year) he put up 33 minutes of play but yet only 7 Points because of an awful 2/10 shooting along with a +/- of -7 (Shaq tried his hardest to cover up for Kobe with 40 points) and the Lakers lost by 7 to the Wizards (102-109).
Let's see how R.J. Barrett's 250th Career game goes tonight (against Brooklyn).
Moral of the story? Dig deep enough into 4th year kids box scores and you can nitpick them 24/7; because no 4th year player (future HOF or not) isn't free from criticism.
NYKMentality wrote:Yes.It's obvious that Kobe Bryant was the better overall player etc.
But I just wanted to point out how much of an incredible start to an NBA Career that R.J. Barrett is currently having. I think this kid is a lot more special than many of us (currently) realize (and he's still the youngest player on our entire roster too).
We've got something extremely special and rare in R.J. Barrett, and I'm just anxious to watch if both of Jalen Brunson and Julius Randle can help unlock his Superstar Potential moving forward; because not too many 22 year olds have EVER put up these types of NBA numbers (before even completing their 1st 4 years of NBA Play).
Sorry @R.J. Barrett.
I guess believing in you, supporting you and having your back (@ only 22 years old) just like I did for Julius Randle last year just isn't good enough for some NYK fans who'd rather nitpick, harp all over and watch your every game through a microscope/magnifying glass; before ever acknowledging what type of rate talent we've got in you. I've learned we're not allowed to compare your Career Points/Rebounds/Assists during your 4th year in comparison to Kobe's 1st 4 years (even if admitting Kobe was the better overall player) they'll somehow spin it against the one who believes in you.
Sorry R.J. Barrett; welcome to your New York Knicks .
NYKMentality wrote:
How many of his assists were forced fed to an impossible to stop Shaq O'Neal? Give me the numbers.PS:
During Kobe's 250th Career Game (4th year) he put up 33 minutes of play but yet only 7 Points because of an awful 2/10 shooting along with a +/- of -7 (Shaq tried his hardest to cover up for Kobe with 40 points) and the Lakers lost by 7 to the Wizards (102-109).
Let's see how R.J. Barrett's 250th Career game goes tonight (against Brooklyn).
Moral of the story? Dig deep enough into 4th year kids box scores and you can nitpick them 24/7; because no 4th year player (future HOF or not) isn't free from criticism.
That's kind of my whole point. I started posting last night not a reaction to box score at all. I was posting while watching a replay of Saturday's game. Stats be damned. He looked awful. I don't care how many points he scored in the second half. Did you even actually watch the game? If not, I recommend you watch it instead of posting these inane stat comparisons with Kobe.
Panos wrote:NYKMentality wrote:That's kind of my whole point. I started posting last night not a reaction to box score at all. I was posting while watching a replay of Saturday's game. Stats be damned. He looked awful. I don't care how many points he scored in the second half. Did you even actually watch the game? If not, I recommend you watch it instead of posting these inane stat comparisons with Kobe.
How many of his assists were forced fed to an impossible to stop Shaq O'Neal? Give me the numbers.PS:
During Kobe's 250th Career Game (4th year) he put up 33 minutes of play but yet only 7 Points because of an awful 2/10 shooting along with a +/- of -7 (Shaq tried his hardest to cover up for Kobe with 40 points) and the Lakers lost by 7 to the Wizards (102-109).
Let's see how R.J. Barrett's 250th Career game goes tonight (against Brooklyn).
Moral of the story? Dig deep enough into 4th year kids box scores and you can nitpick them 24/7; because no 4th year player (future HOF or not) isn't free from criticism.
Not only did I watch the game but was also posting live in our UK Game Thread while watching the game. I watch every game; it's why we're fans.
R.J. came out sluggish 1st half etc but the 22 year old was damn near awesome 2nd half and deserves a lot of credit for rebounding back mentally. That 3 he made? Stopped the bleeding (completely) because Utah was on a big time run but after RJs 3? The entire game changed again for us. He was I believe 4/6 2nd half, 17 points, multiple rebounds and multiple assists and got to the FT line 2nd half but yet 🦗🦗🦗 from the 1st half naysayers.
What I don’t understand is the thought that RJ is a finished piece and patience is lost.
I don’t prescribe to NYKM hype machine either so the middle ground is the likely truth.
Seems fans place a premium on potential on players that have yet to prove themselves with big minutes.
Fans then lose patience on RJ or Randle as they can’t see the furture when a player stagnates.
RJ sureged last part of last season to avg. 20 pts a game as the 2nd option. He is doing it as the 3rd option.
Seems to me RJ has more iso playmaking tasks this year and he, like IQ is going thru a learning curve.
Defense sometimes suffers when players are distracted by new tasks.
Seems we spend a lot of time trying to figure things out to suit our agendas?
RJ is the only one that can slam the door to his critics.
He might not make knick fans 100% happy but what do his coaches think of him?
NYKMentality wrote:The most important part of my 1st post (of this thread).NYKMentality wrote:Yes.It's obvious that Kobe Bryant was the better overall player etc.
But I just wanted to point out how much of an incredible start to an NBA Career that R.J. Barrett is currently having. I think this kid is a lot more special than many of us (currently) realize (and he's still the youngest player on our entire roster too).
We've got something extremely special and rare in R.J. Barrett, and I'm just anxious to watch if both of Jalen Brunson and Julius Randle can help unlock his Superstar Potential moving forward; because not too many 22 year olds have EVER put up these types of NBA numbers (before even completing their 1st 4 years of NBA Play).
Sorry @R.J. Barrett.
I guess believing in you, supporting you and having your back (@ only 22 years old) just like I did for Julius Randle last year just isn't good enough for some NYK fans who'd rather nitpick, harp all over and watch your every game through a microscope/magnifying glass; before ever acknowledging what type of rate talent we've got in you. I've learned we're not allowed to compare your Career Points/Rebounds/Assists during your 4th year in comparison to Kobe's 1st 4 years (even if admitting Kobe was the better overall player) they'll somehow spin it against the one who believes in you.
Sorry R.J. Barrett; welcome to your New York Knicks .
Think most agree that RJ has a lot of potential and has accomplished much. Especially at such a young age. He is a gifted scorer and has a great work ethic.
Most NY fans are harder on him, I believe, due to the fact he was such a high draft pick. One which most are expected to become All Star/franchise type players. He has yet to do so.
However, I do not hink there are many knowledgeable fans that are in favor of giving up on him.
Do understand the frustration some have with his lack of bball IQ which I feel is mostly due to his age and relative short amount of experience. I am hoping that he gets the right guys around him who will developed his basketball IQ and not just guys that tell him how good he is and only work on more ways to put up Kobe like shooting numbers. Which I feel he does currently.
One thing that is clear, he is not afraid to take a big shot no matter what the circumstance is.
Nalod wrote:I find a lot of truth in both sides of the argument.
What I don’t understand is the thought that RJ is a finished piece and patience is lost.
I don’t prescribe to NYKM hype machine either so the middle ground is the likely truth.
Seems fans place a premium on potential on players that have yet to prove themselves with big minutes.
Fans then lose patience on RJ or Randle as they can’t see the furture when a player stagnates.
RJ sureged last part of last season to avg. 20 pts a game as the 2nd option. He is doing it as the 3rd option.
Seems to me RJ has more iso playmaking tasks this year and he, like IQ is going thru a learning curve.
Defense sometimes suffers when players are distracted by new tasks.
Seems we spend a lot of time trying to figure things out to suit our agendas?
RJ is the only one that can slam the door to his critics.
He might not make knick fans 100% happy but what do his coaches think of him?
I'm with you 100% on this. The nitpicking is annoying as you pointed out before. I am getting to a point where I hope to see him traded.
Few weeks ago we were arguing about guys on this team with the clutch gene. I know I said RJ had it (other people did too). Total ridicule. In the past 10 games RJ has come on multiple times down the stretch but now the complaint is he didn't start well. While this is an issue that needs to be addressed, everyone is overlooking what he did well.
And the Talen Horton Tucker BS? The only reason you remember that is it was at the end of the game. RJ straight carried the Knicks for first half of the fourth when NO ONE was doing anything. Without him coming through like that-and his clutch 3-and his rebounding-and the fact thenoffense was running directly through him as a Point Forward...
But that doesn't matter. It's RJ. He sucks. Get Herro.
joec32033 wrote:Nalod wrote:I find a lot of truth in both sides of the argument.
What I don’t understand is the thought that RJ is a finished piece and patience is lost.
I don’t prescribe to NYKM hype machine either so the middle ground is the likely truth.
Seems fans place a premium on potential on players that have yet to prove themselves with big minutes.
Fans then lose patience on RJ or Randle as they can’t see the furture when a player stagnates.
RJ sureged last part of last season to avg. 20 pts a game as the 2nd option. He is doing it as the 3rd option.
Seems to me RJ has more iso playmaking tasks this year and he, like IQ is going thru a learning curve.
Defense sometimes suffers when players are distracted by new tasks.
Seems we spend a lot of time trying to figure things out to suit our agendas?
RJ is the only one that can slam the door to his critics.
He might not make knick fans 100% happy but what do his coaches think of him?I'm with you 100% on this. The nitpicking is annoying as you pointed out before. I am getting to a point where I hope to see him traded.
Few weeks ago we were arguing about guys on this team with the clutch gene. I know I said RJ had it (other people did too). Total ridicule. In the past 10 games RJ has come on multiple times down the stretch but now the complaint is he didn't start well. While this is an issue that needs to be addressed, everyone is overlooking what he did well.
And the Talen Horton Tucker BS? The only reason you remember that is it was at the end of the game. RJ straight carried the Knicks for first half of the fourth when NO ONE was doing anything. Without him coming through like that-and his clutch 3-and his rebounding-and the fact thenoffense was running directly through him as a Point Forward...
But that doesn't matter. It's RJ. He sucks. Get Herro.
I recall RJ used to guard the best SG or SF on other teams. Now "he can't play defense".
Martin now taking out two month stretch to show he is not avg.?
Yeah, the nitpicking is getting a bit much.
Nalod wrote:joec32033 wrote:Nalod wrote:I find a lot of truth in both sides of the argument.
What I don’t understand is the thought that RJ is a finished piece and patience is lost.
I don’t prescribe to NYKM hype machine either so the middle ground is the likely truth.
Seems fans place a premium on potential on players that have yet to prove themselves with big minutes.
Fans then lose patience on RJ or Randle as they can’t see the furture when a player stagnates.
RJ sureged last part of last season to avg. 20 pts a game as the 2nd option. He is doing it as the 3rd option.
Seems to me RJ has more iso playmaking tasks this year and he, like IQ is going thru a learning curve.
Defense sometimes suffers when players are distracted by new tasks.
Seems we spend a lot of time trying to figure things out to suit our agendas?
RJ is the only one that can slam the door to his critics.
He might not make knick fans 100% happy but what do his coaches think of him?I'm with you 100% on this. The nitpicking is annoying as you pointed out before. I am getting to a point where I hope to see him traded.
Few weeks ago we were arguing about guys on this team with the clutch gene. I know I said RJ had it (other people did too). Total ridicule. In the past 10 games RJ has come on multiple times down the stretch but now the complaint is he didn't start well. While this is an issue that needs to be addressed, everyone is overlooking what he did well.
And the Talen Horton Tucker BS? The only reason you remember that is it was at the end of the game. RJ straight carried the Knicks for first half of the fourth when NO ONE was doing anything. Without him coming through like that-and his clutch 3-and his rebounding-and the fact thenoffense was running directly through him as a Point Forward...
But that doesn't matter. It's RJ. He sucks. Get Herro.
I recall RJ used to guard the best SG or SF on other teams. Now "he can't play defense".
Martin now taking out two month stretch to show he is not avg.?
Yeah, the nitpicking is getting a bit much.
Well with the emergence of Grimes we now actually have someone capable of ACTUALLY guarding the best wing. And IQ. And Deuce. And JHart. So RJ needs to not only say the words but actually perform better than those guys on D. Hasn't been the case this year so far
Nalod wrote:I recall RJ used to guard the best SG or SF on other teams. Now "he can't play defense".
Martin now taking out two month stretch to show he is not avg.?
Yeah, the nitpicking is getting a bit much.
No I'm taking out a 2+ month stretch to show you how much it skews the other 4 years worth of info, to put everything else into context.
martin wrote:Nalod wrote:I recall RJ used to guard the best SG or SF on other teams. Now "he can't play defense".
Martin now taking out two month stretch to show he is not avg.?
Yeah, the nitpicking is getting a bit much.No I'm taking out a 2+ month stretch to show you how much it skews the other 4 years worth of info, to put everything else into context.
And I’m sure you could take out a cold stretch here and there and have the opposite effect to some degree.
Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:Nalod wrote:I recall RJ used to guard the best SG or SF on other teams. Now "he can't play defense".
Martin now taking out two month stretch to show he is not avg.?
Yeah, the nitpicking is getting a bit much.No I'm taking out a 2+ month stretch to show you how much it skews the other 4 years worth of info, to put everything else into context.
And I’m sure you could take out a cold stretch here and there and have the opposite effect to some degree.
I mean, go for it. I've taken the time to look at the stats differently to see if there is extra information to be found, please do the same.
I could be wrong. I want to be wrong. I want to be at the crow buffet needing to reverse a downward look at RJ's top end potential thread from 2 years ago.
RJ definitely has stretches every year where he is decent. For me, for young players, those flashes are super fantastic occurrences; it means he has the potential to do exactly that. But when does those flashes turn into something different, like just inconsistency?
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:Nalod wrote:I recall RJ used to guard the best SG or SF on other teams. Now "he can't play defense".
Martin now taking out two month stretch to show he is not avg.?
Yeah, the nitpicking is getting a bit much.No I'm taking out a 2+ month stretch to show you how much it skews the other 4 years worth of info, to put everything else into context.
And I’m sure you could take out a cold stretch here and there and have the opposite effect to some degree.
I mean, go for it. I've taken the time to look at the stats differently to see if there is extra information to be found, please do the same.
I could be wrong. I want to be wrong. I want to be at the crow buffet needing to reverse a downward look at RJ's top end potential thread from 2 years ago.
RJ definitely has stretches every year where he is decent. For me, for young players, those flashes are super fantastic occurrences; it means he has the potential to do exactly that. But when does those flashes turn into something different, like just inconsistency?
I’m not going to break down those stats because I’m not interested in manipulating the data in any way. That completely defeats the purpose.
NYKMentality wrote:4th year, Kobe was a 2x all star and looking very much like a HOF player.BigDaddyG wrote:Ira wrote:Good thread. RJ does deserve more patience from us New Yorkers.And we should achieve that by making unrealistic comparisons to HOFers?I don't think Kobe Bryant was a HOF player during only his 4th NBA season. For a matter of fact, I know he wasn't anywhere near a "HOF PLAYER" during only his 4th Year.
All-League
1996-97 All-Rookie (2nd)
1998-99 All-NBA (3rd)
1999-00 All-Defensive (1st)
1999-00 All-NBA (2nd)
2000-01 All-Defensive (2nd)
2000-01 All-NBA (2nd)
That's all in his first 4 years.
For some reason I cant find any of RJ's all NBA anything awards... maybe there is a bug with the web sit.
This is so phucking stupid
ramtour420 wrote:Nalod wrote:joec32033 wrote:Nalod wrote:I find a lot of truth in both sides of the argument.
What I don’t understand is the thought that RJ is a finished piece and patience is lost.
I don’t prescribe to NYKM hype machine either so the middle ground is the likely truth.
Seems fans place a premium on potential on players that have yet to prove themselves with big minutes.
Fans then lose patience on RJ or Randle as they can’t see the furture when a player stagnates.
RJ sureged last part of last season to avg. 20 pts a game as the 2nd option. He is doing it as the 3rd option.
Seems to me RJ has more iso playmaking tasks this year and he, like IQ is going thru a learning curve.
Defense sometimes suffers when players are distracted by new tasks.
Seems we spend a lot of time trying to figure things out to suit our agendas?
RJ is the only one that can slam the door to his critics.
He might not make knick fans 100% happy but what do his coaches think of him?I'm with you 100% on this. The nitpicking is annoying as you pointed out before. I am getting to a point where I hope to see him traded.
Few weeks ago we were arguing about guys on this team with the clutch gene. I know I said RJ had it (other people did too). Total ridicule. In the past 10 games RJ has come on multiple times down the stretch but now the complaint is he didn't start well. While this is an issue that needs to be addressed, everyone is overlooking what he did well.
And the Talen Horton Tucker BS? The only reason you remember that is it was at the end of the game. RJ straight carried the Knicks for first half of the fourth when NO ONE was doing anything. Without him coming through like that-and his clutch 3-and his rebounding-and the fact thenoffense was running directly through him as a Point Forward...
But that doesn't matter. It's RJ. He sucks. Get Herro.
I recall RJ used to guard the best SG or SF on other teams. Now "he can't play defense".
Martin now taking out two month stretch to show he is not avg.?
Yeah, the nitpicking is getting a bit much.
Well with the emergence of Grimes we now actually have someone capable of ACTUALLY guarding the best wing. And IQ. And Deuce. And JHart. So RJ needs to not only say the words but actually perform better than those guys on D. Hasn't been the case this year so far
Deuce great defender. IQ above average. Hart above average.
Sorry, but my eye test shown Grimes as above average at best at least for the first 45 minutes of a game. Then he goes to average. Grimes has made a lot not mistakes I see get overlooked here becausebhe is the new darling on this team.
And I know there are tons of analytics numbers that are going to prove me wrong. So before we start posting them, I am acknowledging that they are going to prove me "wrong" I am also acknowledging I don't give a shit.