Knicks · Another RJ Barrett thread (page 1)

Just some things I want to get off my mind before the playoffs and in hope that I pull a jinx and Barrett has a huge series.

Plus minus for this year has IQ at +319. All of Hart, Brunson, Randle, Grimes, Mitch, and Hartenstein all +150 or better. That’s 7 guys who are major nba rotation players with big impact and the eye test lines up. Toppin and Deuce are both a next tier at +56 and +53. They are essentially fringe rotation players and the numbers line up compared to the others. Below the line are mostly guys who didn’t play a ton of games…and RJ Barrett at -62. Now I have always been a Barrett advocate, and I still think he’s a major talent. The issue I have is more with fit than anything. I know Barrett could play on a faster team with an elite PG and bully and slither his way to a much more efficient 20+ ppg. An example would be to put him in Charlotte with Ball and he would be similar to Miles Bridges from last season. But with the way this team is built around the strengths of Brunson and Randle, he’s been a square peg in a round hole. The Knicks will continue to play more methodically, and Quickley and Hart will serve as the energizer change of pace players.

So all of that being said, we can look at the numbers and easily make the argument that while we can argue Barrett’s upside to the death, we can also compromise in the fact that maybe his biggest issue is that he’s just not the perfect fit. Now the playoffs can change that, I hope it does. We know no matter what happens, Barrett’s contract will be used for bait in a superstar trade. But if there’s no superstar trade, the argument can be made that this team has another level to reach just with the perfect role player in place of Barrett- essentially another Josh Hart type player.

So summing it all up, my question is (prior to playoffs), would you keep Barrett going forward and bank on the talent and fit eventually sorting itself out, or would you move him in a trade for a role player who seems like an ideal system fit? This might be someone who essentially takes over as 6th man while Quickley slides into the starting lineup and Grimes plays SF. I know my timing isn’t great on this the day before playoffs. Much more suited for after the season, but just what I’m thinking right now and wanted to get some feedback.

I think the obvious next step in your opening would be: who are you trading for and at what cost?

Hard to say without those 2 things being quantified.

Go hard after Ingram. He gets banged up a lot but he's the 3 you need. Offer a package around McBride/Obi/RJ and some minor draft comp

Resign IQ
Resign JHart
Brunson/Grimes/Ingram/Jules/Mitch
bench: IQ/JHart/IHart

Those are my 8 guys.

Ingram or Bridges would be so perfect for this team. Its just tough because with the draft capital the Pelicans already have and their playoff feel last year, they're more inclined to be aggresive themselves. A team of

Brunson
Grimes
Ingram
Randle
Robinson

IQ
Hart
Hartenstein
would easily be up there for title contention.

Knixkik wrote:Just some things I want to get off my mind before the playoffs and in hope that I pull a jinx and Barrett has a huge series.

Plus minus for this year has IQ at +319. All of Hart, Brunson, Randle, Grimes, Mitch, and Hartenstein all +150 or better. That’s 7 guys who are major nba rotation players with big impact and the eye test lines up. Toppin and Deuce are both a next tier at +56 and +53. They are essentially fringe rotation players and the numbers line up compared to the others. Below the line are mostly guys who didn’t play a ton of games…and RJ Barrett at -62. Now I have always been a Barrett advocate, and I still think he’s a major talent. The issue I have is more with fit than anything. I know Barrett could play on a faster team with an elite PG and bully and slither his way to a much more efficient 20+ ppg. An example would be to put him in Charlotte with Ball and he would be similar to Miles Bridges from last season. But with the way this team is built around the strengths of Brunson and Randle, he’s been a square peg in a round hole. The Knicks will continue to play more methodically, and Quickley and Hart will serve as the energizer change of pace players.

So all of that being said, we can look at the numbers and easily make the argument that while we can argue Barrett’s upside to the death, we can also compromise in the fact that maybe his biggest issue is that he’s just not the perfect fit. Now the playoffs can change that, I hope it does. We know no matter what happens, Barrett’s contract will be used for bait in a superstar trade. But if there’s no superstar trade, the argument can be made that this team has another level to reach just with the perfect role player in place of Barrett- essentially another Josh Hart type player.

So summing it all up, my question is (prior to playoffs), would you keep Barrett going forward and bank on the talent and fit eventually sorting itself out, or would you move him in a trade for a role player who seems like an ideal system fit? This might be someone who essentially takes over as 6th man while Quickley slides into the starting lineup and Grimes plays SF. I know my timing isn’t great on this the day before playoffs. Much more suited for after the season, but just what I’m thinking right now and wanted to get some feedback.

Your basically asking the same question as others. Knicks are 5th in offense efficiency with him. Pace is up for a knick team, but near the bottom for sure.
The second unit is far faster, and he plays a good deal with them.
Our plotting pace is centric on Randle and Jalen. Is RJ part of the problem or going forward would be part of the solution?
Your asking good answers and really not sure most of us are really qualified to answer it. Josh Hart is not a great offensive player but he is efficient very much as a knick.
His cutting with Ihart has been a thing of beauty.
Anyone on the court when IQ is red hot does help ones PLus/minus.
That he plays with both units does make his +- a bit harder to decipher.
Im not open to the concept of removing RJ without knowledge of the cost or who comes back in.
one can argue his age does not matter as he has had 4 years. Fact is his 2pt % is improving, he handles the ball far more but his Turnovers are about the same.
The issue is his 3pt% and that has to be addressed.
As for his defense, body bulk, mental state, ego, etc........Well, some of us used those variables more than others. I trust the FO more than anyone here, including myself.
Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one.

To answer the question: Right now I'm more inclined to move him. 4 years and the data on him is shite.

fishmike wrote:Go hard after Ingram. He gets banged up a lot but he's the 3 you need. Offer a package around McBride/Obi/RJ and some minor draft comp

Resign IQ
Resign JHart
Brunson/Grimes/Ingram/Jules/Mitch
bench: IQ/JHart/IHart

Those are my 8 guys.

That would be an ideal...but depends on the picks/protection.

TPercy wrote:Ingram or Bridges would be so perfect for this team. Its just tough because with the draft capital the Pelicans already have and their playoff feel last year, they're more inclined to be aggresive themselves. A team of

Brunson
Grimes
Ingram
Randle
Robinson

IQ
Hart
Hartenstein
would easily be up there for title contention.

Either one would be absolutely perfect. I think Bridges especially because of his durability and role-player type fit. I just can’t figure out for the life of me a scenario where either team would trade that player to us without a severe overpay that looks like the Gobert trade.

I think clearly the solution will be another RJ thread.

Taking this a step further, and I’m not advocating for this, but what does this team looks like with RJ replaced in the rotation by someone like Caruso, Trent Jr, Norman Powell, Cam Johnson, Bojan Bogdanovic, etc. Guys in that 75-125 range in the league who don’t offer any upside, but can start or come off the bench and you know exactly what you’re going to get.

I'm going to give RJ the benefit of the doubt. But I would ask him to work on his 3pt shot.

And then at the start of training camp, I'm going to ask him to take 10 3pt shots from anywhere he wants - wide open, pleasant music playing in the back ground, and if he can't hit 4 of 10, I'd trade him for a 2nd round pick and sack of rocks.

The question I have about RJ is does he as a professional athlete want it. And I don't need MJ type motivation, I just need bare level, I care enough motivation.

franco12 wrote:I'm going to give RJ the benefit of the doubt. But I would ask him to work on his 3pt shot.

And then at the start of training camp, I'm going to ask him to take 10 3pt shots from anywhere he wants - wide open, pleasant music playing in the back ground, and if he can't hit 4 of 10, I'd trade him for a 2nd round pick and sack of rocks.

The question I have about RJ is does he as a professional athlete want it. And I don't need MJ type motivation, I just need bare level, I care enough motivation.

he hit the 3 well in the 2nd half of year 2. He really popped and it never carried over.

Im more worried about his lack of a handle and his defense. He's not able to get to his spots to make shots and he's not a plus defender. Those are the things that after 4 years make me want to move on

fishmike wrote:Im more worried about his lack of a handle and his defense. He's not able to get to his spots to make shots and he's not a plus defender. Those are the things that after 4 years make me want to move on

Don't even need him to be a plus, just average. He was there two seasons ago and then he regressed.

fishmike wrote:Go hard after Ingram. He gets banged up a lot but he's the 3 you need. Offer a package around McBride/Obi/RJ and some minor draft comp

Resign IQ
Resign JHart
Brunson/Grimes/Ingram/Jules/Mitch
bench: IQ/JHart/IHart

Those are my 8 guys.

I wish Ingram were more catch-shoot and less ball dependent/dominant but yes if we could get him in some type of RJ/pick package that isn’t awful I’m down for that. Ingram has really improved his body - legit transformation.

I think there will be other options out there as some GMs will convince themselves RJ is young and will improve away from ball dominant Brunson/Randle

Knixkik wrote:Just some things I want to get off my mind before the playoffs and in hope that I pull a jinx and Barrett has a huge series.

Plus minus for this year has IQ at +319. All of Hart, Brunson, Randle, Grimes, Mitch, and Hartenstein all +150 or better. That’s 7 guys who are major nba rotation players with big impact and the eye test lines up. Toppin and Deuce are both a next tier at +56 and +53. They are essentially fringe rotation players and the numbers line up compared to the others. Below the line are mostly guys who didn’t play a ton of games…and RJ Barrett at -62. Now I have always been a Barrett advocate, and I still think he’s a major talent. The issue I have is more with fit than anything. I know Barrett could play on a faster team with an elite PG and bully and slither his way to a much more efficient 20+ ppg. An example would be to put him in Charlotte with Ball and he would be similar to Miles Bridges from last season. But with the way this team is built around the strengths of Brunson and Randle, he’s been a square peg in a round hole. The Knicks will continue to play more methodically, and Quickley and Hart will serve as the energizer change of pace players.

So all of that being said, we can look at the numbers and easily make the argument that while we can argue Barrett’s upside to the death, we can also compromise in the fact that maybe his biggest issue is that he’s just not the perfect fit. Now the playoffs can change that, I hope it does. We know no matter what happens, Barrett’s contract will be used for bait in a superstar trade. But if there’s no superstar trade, the argument can be made that this team has another level to reach just with the perfect role player in place of Barrett- essentially another Josh Hart type player.

So summing it all up, my question is (prior to playoffs), would you keep Barrett going forward and bank on the talent and fit eventually sorting itself out, or would you move him in a trade for a role player who seems like an ideal system fit? This might be someone who essentially takes over as 6th man while Quickley slides into the starting lineup and Grimes plays SF. I know my timing isn’t great on this the day before playoffs. Much more suited for after the season, but just what I’m thinking right now and wanted to get some feedback.

Had been an RJ advocate historically but agree he's just not a good fit in an offense centered around Randle and Brunson. 2-3 seasons ago I started advocating to trade Randle and see what RJ could do by assuming his role as the centerpiece (sink or swim). While I still think we will finally come to our senses and realize Randle shouldn't be the main focus - he has played much better this year and I won't hold my breath that this occurs soon. So I would move RJ unless Portland would take Randle and Brunson straight up for Dame.

Realistically I like the proposal of Mikal Bridges if we could get him without gutting too much from our bench/picks. I liked Ingram but as talented as he is - don't see it as a good fit to overpay to obtain another similar iso-scorer since we have Randle and Brunson. Ideally we want a knock down shooter that can create a little or only when needed. OG's playoff struggles could open up an opportunity to revisit RJ back home to Toronto. If the Warriors were willing to part with Klay Thompson for RJ I'd do that even though he's very old and injury-riddled. Miles Bridges if he redeemed himself off the court could likely balance out well as our SF. Since there may not be a lot of veteran options that we could trade with - I would look at teams that need talent and have decent prospects or upcoming players (eg Devin Vassell on SA).

So given the way our team is designed/built - I think we should look for a better fit and move RJ this offseason if possible.

LivingLegend wrote:

fishmike wrote:Go hard after Ingram. He gets banged up a lot but he's the 3 you need. Offer a package around McBride/Obi/RJ and some minor draft comp

Resign IQ
Resign JHart
Brunson/Grimes/Ingram/Jules/Mitch
bench: IQ/JHart/IHart

Those are my 8 guys.

I wish Ingram were more catch-shoot and less ball dependent/dominant but yes if we could get him in some type of RJ/pick package that isn’t awful I’m down for that. Ingram has really improved his body - legit transformation.

I think there will be other options out there as some GMs will convince themselves RJ is young and will improve away from ball dominant Brunson/Randle

the bold is the hope!

jskinny35 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Just some things I want to get off my mind before the playoffs and in hope that I pull a jinx and Barrett has a huge series.

Plus minus for this year has IQ at +319. All of Hart, Brunson, Randle, Grimes, Mitch, and Hartenstein all +150 or better. That’s 7 guys who are major nba rotation players with big impact and the eye test lines up. Toppin and Deuce are both a next tier at +56 and +53. They are essentially fringe rotation players and the numbers line up compared to the others. Below the line are mostly guys who didn’t play a ton of games…and RJ Barrett at -62. Now I have always been a Barrett advocate, and I still think he’s a major talent. The issue I have is more with fit than anything. I know Barrett could play on a faster team with an elite PG and bully and slither his way to a much more efficient 20+ ppg. An example would be to put him in Charlotte with Ball and he would be similar to Miles Bridges from last season. But with the way this team is built around the strengths of Brunson and Randle, he’s been a square peg in a round hole. The Knicks will continue to play more methodically, and Quickley and Hart will serve as the energizer change of pace players.

So all of that being said, we can look at the numbers and easily make the argument that while we can argue Barrett’s upside to the death, we can also compromise in the fact that maybe his biggest issue is that he’s just not the perfect fit. Now the playoffs can change that, I hope it does. We know no matter what happens, Barrett’s contract will be used for bait in a superstar trade. But if there’s no superstar trade, the argument can be made that this team has another level to reach just with the perfect role player in place of Barrett- essentially another Josh Hart type player.

So summing it all up, my question is (prior to playoffs), would you keep Barrett going forward and bank on the talent and fit eventually sorting itself out, or would you move him in a trade for a role player who seems like an ideal system fit? This might be someone who essentially takes over as 6th man while Quickley slides into the starting lineup and Grimes plays SF. I know my timing isn’t great on this the day before playoffs. Much more suited for after the season, but just what I’m thinking right now and wanted to get some feedback.

Had been an RJ advocate historically but agree he's just not a good fit in an offense centered around Randle and Brunson. 2-3 seasons ago I started advocating to trade Randle and see what RJ could do by assuming his role as the centerpiece (sink or swim). While I still think we will finally come to our senses and realize Randle shouldn't be the main focus - he has played much better this year and I won't hold my breath that this occurs soon. So I would move RJ unless Portland would take Randle and Brunson straight up for Dame.

Realistically I like the proposal of Mikal Bridges if we could get him without gutting too much from our bench/picks. I liked Ingram but as talented as he is - don't see it as a good fit to overpay to obtain another similar iso-scorer since we have Randle and Brunson. Ideally we want a knock down shooter that can create a little or only when needed. OG's playoff struggles could open up an opportunity to revisit RJ back home to Toronto. If the Warriors were willing to part with Klay Thompson for RJ I'd do that even though he's very old and injury-riddled. Miles Bridges if he redeemed himself off the court could likely balance out well as our SF. Since there may not be a lot of veteran options that we could trade with - I would look at teams that need talent and have decent prospects or upcoming players (eg Devin Vassell on SA).

So given the way our team is designed/built - I think we should look for a better fit and move RJ this offseason if possible.

Can’t support trading Randle and Brunson for a 32 year old Lillard. That would take us nowhere. In fact we would be far worse. Between his injury history creeping up and age there isn’t enough time to build around him in his twilight years. I believe in Randle as long as Brunson is running the show. Their ages still give them some more upward trajectory. Randle is basically a good player on his own but a great player alongside Brunson. Can’t mess with a good thing. Ingram is nice but the injury history is there. Mikal would seem like such a perfect fit. OG is cool but is probably overrated a bit. He’s never been all-defense and misses a fair amount of time. Although I would still take him for the right cost, I think Caruso give you 60% the value for 30% the cost of Anunoby. Just some thoughts.

fishmike wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

fishmike wrote:Go hard after Ingram. He gets banged up a lot but he's the 3 you need. Offer a package around McBride/Obi/RJ and some minor draft comp

Resign IQ
Resign JHart
Brunson/Grimes/Ingram/Jules/Mitch
bench: IQ/JHart/IHart

Those are my 8 guys.

I wish Ingram were more catch-shoot and less ball dependent/dominant but yes if we could get him in some type of RJ/pick package that isn’t awful I’m down for that. Ingram has really improved his body - legit transformation.

I think there will be other options out there as some GMs will convince themselves RJ is young and will improve away from ball dominant Brunson/Randle

the bold is the hope!

That is 100% the case. Most of the rebuilding teams in the league without a ton of salary can and would take him on. Utah, San Antonio, Charlotte, Orlando, Detroit, Houston, etc would probably love him. But the thing is the Knicks would need real value for him. A significant piece that can help them take the next step. I’m guessing it would be a 3 team trade if something happened.

fishmike wrote:Go hard after Ingram. He gets banged up a lot but he's the 3 you need. Offer a package around McBride/Obi/RJ and some minor draft comp

Resign IQ
Resign JHart
Brunson/Grimes/Ingram/Jules/Mitch
bench: IQ/JHart/IHart

Those are my 8 guys.

But don't do it so sloppily who is your 9th man ? Don't leave it hanging, give us a name to replace Obi. Is it Isiah Robey or another vet ? Lol just kidding ... Or am I ?

i just want to extend positive vibes on RJ at the moment, along with all other Knicks

Will save criticisms until after season is over.

that said, i don't want Ingram. We need a guys who is tough and reliable. If i'm trading for a guy who only plays part of a season it will be for Zion