I see both sides on Ayton and none of us can really know what’s going on in his head - if he is really upset and it’s hurting his performance or if he doesn’t care.
Above said - seeing what I can see and watching Mitch do nada offensively and comparing him to guys like Bam, Lopez, Embid, Joker, AD and Ayton and I think Mitch really caps our potential. I think there were some defensive metrics that indicated Ayton was a top rim defender maybe a season or 2 ago without having big block shot #s.
martin wrote:EwingPSD wrote:martin wrote:Nalod wrote:martin wrote:LivingLegend wrote:Nalod wrote:MS wrote:OG for IQ and a conditional maybe. Although IQ is always healthy and if you play him the same minutes is OG you’re getting similar production with more games played.Ayton for Mitch, Fournier and McBride could be interesting. I like Mitch a lot put more offense is important. If you throw one of the worst first there you now have more offense similar rebounding but less rim protection.
It gives you more options offensively if you want to play hart at the four and have IQ, Donte, RJ out there.
Plausible and compelling
I have suggested going after Ayton who is younger and better vs Mitch imo.
Quick trade is a bit trickier because he’s young, plays premium position and defends plus don’t like the Randle/OG/RJ trio together - to clunky/ sloppy. Have always assumed RJ or Randle would have to go if OG was coming in - maybe Randle to 3rd team or RJ directly to Raps.
That one is tricky for me: "Better". Better defensively? Better motor? Dude got benched during finals for lack of effort. The Finals.
Better offensively? Sure.
Better and more impactful player relative to what you are also paying him and the cost it would take to trade for him? Not for me.
They made it to the finals with him.
Compelling.
He and Monty were not on the same page.
I agree Ayton is not a finished piece of work. If one thinks his ceiling is hit, then less compelling.
My take is they moved from Monty to Aytons benefit. THat said, I doubt they moving him.
We don't know all the details of Monty being let go. He has a good rep but his handling of Ayton not a good look.
Durant doing the durant thing? Did Booker have an issue? Do they both want ayton there?
They also sat him in the FINALS. Cause of effort.
The Finals.
I can't and never will get over that. In my book, that type of guy is less than worth it unless it's at a deep discount.
I don't know if his sitting in the final b/c of effort is accurate. He also averaged 18 and 13 on nearly 70% from the floor in a WCF and I think he was 21. Thibs would give him the ball less than Monty so it's not relevant to us but I think there is reason to be more positive when it comes to Ayton.
You know how I know? Cause Monty Williams literally said it.
Coach hated him.
Don Nelson didn’t care for Spree much either - not being sarcastic but thinking just because 1 coach butts heads maybe not enough known to make a judgement AND if you were a player who knew your coach hated you maybe your effort could be impacted.
Very hard to tell what went south there because as Nalod referenced this kid was a big deal 2 years ago — maybe he just doesn’t care but I don’t know.
Its looking like the soonest we will see a big trade is near the first deadline, this upcoming season. Cant say Im disappointed. We need to see if Grimes is over his sophomore slump. If Mitch has brought more offense. If Brunson and Mitch are clicking. What IQ's role will be going forward. Is RJ going to take his game to another level? He looked better to close the season, playoffs.
The only big trade I would be interested in this offseason is Zion, if he's in shape. Worry about Embiid's availability going forward. Moreso than Zion.
LivingLegend wrote:martin wrote:EwingPSD wrote:martin wrote:Nalod wrote:martin wrote:LivingLegend wrote:Nalod wrote:MS wrote:OG for IQ and a conditional maybe. Although IQ is always healthy and if you play him the same minutes is OG you’re getting similar production with more games played.Ayton for Mitch, Fournier and McBride could be interesting. I like Mitch a lot put more offense is important. If you throw one of the worst first there you now have more offense similar rebounding but less rim protection.
It gives you more options offensively if you want to play hart at the four and have IQ, Donte, RJ out there.
Plausible and compelling
I have suggested going after Ayton who is younger and better vs Mitch imo.
Quick trade is a bit trickier because he’s young, plays premium position and defends plus don’t like the Randle/OG/RJ trio together - to clunky/ sloppy. Have always assumed RJ or Randle would have to go if OG was coming in - maybe Randle to 3rd team or RJ directly to Raps.
That one is tricky for me: "Better". Better defensively? Better motor? Dude got benched during finals for lack of effort. The Finals.
Better offensively? Sure.
Better and more impactful player relative to what you are also paying him and the cost it would take to trade for him? Not for me.
They made it to the finals with him.
Compelling.
He and Monty were not on the same page.
I agree Ayton is not a finished piece of work. If one thinks his ceiling is hit, then less compelling.
My take is they moved from Monty to Aytons benefit. THat said, I doubt they moving him.
We don't know all the details of Monty being let go. He has a good rep but his handling of Ayton not a good look.
Durant doing the durant thing? Did Booker have an issue? Do they both want ayton there?
They also sat him in the FINALS. Cause of effort.
The Finals.
I can't and never will get over that. In my book, that type of guy is less than worth it unless it's at a deep discount.
I don't know if his sitting in the final b/c of effort is accurate. He also averaged 18 and 13 on nearly 70% from the floor in a WCF and I think he was 21. Thibs would give him the ball less than Monty so it's not relevant to us but I think there is reason to be more positive when it comes to Ayton.
You know how I know? Cause Monty Williams literally said it.
Coach hated him.
Don Nelson didn’t care for Spree much either - not being sarcastic but thinking just because 1 coach butts heads maybe not enough known to make a judgement AND if you were a player who knew your coach hated you maybe your effort could be impacted.
Very hard to tell what went south there because as Nalod referenced this kid was a big deal 2 years ago — maybe he just doesn’t care but I don’t know.
Also, he didn't say it. He said "it's internal"
I’m still waiting for the Knicks to sign Garuba and move Fournier to San Antonio since sept 2 they have a ton of players eligible to be traded in a package. Bullock, Osman, Graham, Birch, Payne. All of these guys needed 2 months to legally be packaged together. There has to be a trade there right ?
I guess no word on Quickley's potential extension?
Knixkik wrote:I’m still waiting for the Knicks to sign Garuba and move Fournier to San Antonio since sept 2 they have a ton of players eligible to be traded in a package. Bullock, Osman, Graham, Birch, Payne. All of these guys needed 2 months to legally be packaged together. There has to be a trade there right ?
Garuba cleared waivers, right? Surprised he hasn't found a team.
It'll be interesting to see if Knicks-Spurs figure out something. Knicks roster full
LivingLegend wrote:martin wrote:EwingPSD wrote:martin wrote:Nalod wrote:martin wrote:LivingLegend wrote:Nalod wrote:MS wrote:OG for IQ and a conditional maybe. Although IQ is always healthy and if you play him the same minutes is OG you’re getting similar production with more games played.Ayton for Mitch, Fournier and McBride could be interesting. I like Mitch a lot put more offense is important. If you throw one of the worst first there you now have more offense similar rebounding but less rim protection.
It gives you more options offensively if you want to play hart at the four and have IQ, Donte, RJ out there.
Plausible and compelling
I have suggested going after Ayton who is younger and better vs Mitch imo.
Quick trade is a bit trickier because he’s young, plays premium position and defends plus don’t like the Randle/OG/RJ trio together - to clunky/ sloppy. Have always assumed RJ or Randle would have to go if OG was coming in - maybe Randle to 3rd team or RJ directly to Raps.
That one is tricky for me: "Better". Better defensively? Better motor? Dude got benched during finals for lack of effort. The Finals.
Better offensively? Sure.
Better and more impactful player relative to what you are also paying him and the cost it would take to trade for him? Not for me.
They made it to the finals with him.
Compelling.
He and Monty were not on the same page.
I agree Ayton is not a finished piece of work. If one thinks his ceiling is hit, then less compelling.
My take is they moved from Monty to Aytons benefit. THat said, I doubt they moving him.
We don't know all the details of Monty being let go. He has a good rep but his handling of Ayton not a good look.
Durant doing the durant thing? Did Booker have an issue? Do they both want ayton there?
They also sat him in the FINALS. Cause of effort.
The Finals.
I can't and never will get over that. In my book, that type of guy is less than worth it unless it's at a deep discount.
I don't know if his sitting in the final b/c of effort is accurate. He also averaged 18 and 13 on nearly 70% from the floor in a WCF and I think he was 21. Thibs would give him the ball less than Monty so it's not relevant to us but I think there is reason to be more positive when it comes to Ayton.
You know how I know? Cause Monty Williams literally said it.
Coach hated him.
Don Nelson didn’t care for Spree much either - not being sarcastic but thinking just because 1 coach butts heads maybe not enough known to make a judgement AND if you were a player who knew your coach hated you maybe your effort could be impacted.
Very hard to tell what went south there because as Nalod referenced this kid was a big deal 2 years ago — maybe he just doesn’t care but I don’t know.
You mean PG Carlesimo right? Nellie loved Spree (but hated Webber)
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:I’m still waiting for the Knicks to sign Garuba and move Fournier to San Antonio since sept 2 they have a ton of players eligible to be traded in a package. Bullock, Osman, Graham, Birch, Payne. All of these guys needed 2 months to legally be packaged together. There has to be a trade there right ?
Garuba cleared waivers, right? Surprised he hasn't found a team.
It'll be interesting to see if Knicks-Spurs figure out something. Knicks roster full
Knicks have 1 more spot so a 1 for 2 is possible. San Antonio also has a lot of vets used to playing who will be out of the rotation.
Are we overvaluing the Fournier-Wemby connection? He's not Tony Parker.
What can you realistically expect to get for Fournier from the Spurs (or anyone? Best case scenario is Dougie McBuckets? Think he’d see a lot of the floor with Thibs?
It would appear hanging onto him is for his salary in a possible bigger trade and nothing else.
KnickDanger wrote:What can you realistically expect to get for Fournier from the Spurs (or anyone? Best case scenario is Dougie McBuckets? Think he’d see a lot of the floor with Thibs? It would appear hanging onto him is for his salary in a possible bigger trade and nothing else.
We wouldn’t be getting a player who would play consistently. It would be matching salary and acquiring an expiring contract or contracts of players who aren’t malcontent.
Knixkik wrote:KnickDanger wrote:What can you realistically expect to get for Fournier from the Spurs (or anyone? Best case scenario is Dougie McBuckets? Think he’d see a lot of the floor with Thibs? It would appear hanging onto him is for his salary in a possible bigger trade and nothing else.
We wouldn’t be getting a player who would play consistently. It would be matching salary and acquiring an expiring contract or contracts of players who aren’t malcontent.
I am not sure what exactly you are responding to in the above but will affirm that Fournier will most likely be traded with other assets - like picks and/or player - to return a player who would play consistently. I think that is the FO’s goal.
Short of that, if he is not traded by Feb, he will be cut.
Knixkik wrote:KnickDanger wrote:What can you realistically expect to get for Fournier from the Spurs (or anyone? Best case scenario is Dougie McBuckets? Think he’d see a lot of the floor with Thibs? It would appear hanging onto him is for his salary in a possible bigger trade and nothing else.
We wouldn’t be getting a player who would play consistently. It would be matching salary and acquiring an expiring contract or contracts of players who aren’t malcontent.
Fournier isn't particularly a malcontent, not to this point anyway. In McDermott you would get someone who at best plays defense to the level of say...an Evan Fournier. He's not going to play in New York. And maybe he would be just as unhappy. So why bother? The only reason I could guess would be to appease some fans that they're "doing something."
KnickDanger wrote:Knixkik wrote:KnickDanger wrote:What can you realistically expect to get for Fournier from the Spurs (or anyone? Best case scenario is Dougie McBuckets? Think he’d see a lot of the floor with Thibs? It would appear hanging onto him is for his salary in a possible bigger trade and nothing else.
We wouldn’t be getting a player who would play consistently. It would be matching salary and acquiring an expiring contract or contracts of players who aren’t malcontent.
Fournier isn't particularly a malcontent, not to this point anyway. In McDermott you would get someone who at best plays defense to the level of say...an Evan Fournier. He's not going to play in New York. And maybe he would be just as unhappy. So why bother? The only reason I could guess would be to appease some fans that they're "doing something."
The Bulls traded up to draft Doug at the end of Thibs tenure in Chicago. Thibs and the FO didn’t get a long at all at that point. Doug averaged 8 mins a game his rookie year and said on JJ podcasts that Thibs didn’t even speak to him. Unless the Spurs really don’t give a shit about Doug/his agent etc I can’t see him being traded to NY
Maybe a veteran big man for Fournier, who could be counted on in the playoffs to spell Mitch. Scoring in the paint.
A player with a year more left on his deal than Fournier. That might get some interest. Maybe take care of two problems. Finding a destination for EF, and getting more scoring in the paint.
We've got plenty of guards, thats for sure.
KnickDanger wrote:What can you realistically expect to get for Fournier from the Spurs (or anyone? Best case scenario is Dougie McBuckets? Think he’d see a lot of the floor with Thibs? It would appear hanging onto him is for his salary in a possible bigger trade and nothing else.
I mean, I would add a lower value pick to trade EF for McBuckets and Devin Vassell.
Keep Fournier in case a better deal comes along at the deadline. In the meantime sign a back up 4 who can spread the floor like J Green for insurance. Team front office is disciplined and patient and frugal. Does the team tell Evan to stay home during the season is the question ?
Old trade suggestion made for the last two seasons, would you trade a pick with Evan for Bojan Bogdovic ? I wouldn't attach a first but the Detroit second we own I would
Alpha1971 wrote:Old trade suggestion made for the last two seasons, would you trade a pick with Evan for Bojan Bogdovic ? I wouldn't attach a first but the Detroit second we own I would
Interesting player for the Knicks but I think it’d take a first rounder or at least more than their second rounder, he is decent.
martin wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:Old trade suggestion made for the last two seasons, would you trade a pick with Evan for Bojan Bogdovic ? I wouldn't attach a first but the Detroit second we own I would
Interesting player for the Knicks but I think it’d take a first rounder or at least more than their second rounder, he is decent.
That Detroit second is a low first with a better team friendly deal. So I'm thinking that pick has a unique value
