Knicks · The I love Brunson "But" thread...... (page 2)

Nalod wrote:There was no player over 6'2 drafted last season.
We have centers with PG skills in this era.
Unicorns are a real thing now.

I love brunson but......He is 27. Next year he is still signed but has a player option for year 4.
But.....

Mike Bibby
Baron Davis
Marbury
Tiny archibald

Few that come to mind that peaked at our near age 28. Bibby reminds me a bit of JB. Strong kid with strong fundamentals. All these guys came in with high draft status and did reach all star status. JB was national player of the year but did not fit the mold of the modern player. He was a 4 year player, short but strong.
JB efforts and tenacity are incredible. Hard to not love him. But how long can he beat that body up? When a short players loses a step, like Kenny anderson and Brandon Jennings they can still be good, but not allstar good. In an era were money matters because you can't tie up with dead contracts, its a consideration.

What to do? Im not sure. I really enjoy this team were Randle and Brunson are a the peak of their powers. RJ is close, but still 23. Nobody, even RJ should be off the table. Im not saying to trade anyone but you don't turn away a crazy offering if it can set up a good run.
If im playing pretend GM I have to consider Brunson not at this level but perhaps a 15-17ppg guy longer term. What he wants, how he sees his career, and longevity is in his hands.

Brunson is the heart and soul of this team. But.......

I have no worries with Brunson for next 2 years under existing deal - I do however worry about us giving him a new deal with gigantic #s.

This kid has been more than any of us could have imagined and yes he is absolutely the heart and soul of this team. His mental toughness only matches Bernard King in my book but Jalen’s a significantly more impactful leader vs Bernard.

Sure sometimes I’d like to see a few more passes but at the same time I never sense Brunson is shooting selfishly but only because he thinks that’s what team needs.

I wish he were 6’5” and had the body of a young Jason Kidd but he doesn’t —- hard to tell how well he is going to age —- very tough call on the next contract but he is an elite bucket getter and leader —— those don’t show up in NY but once every decade or so.

LivingLegend wrote:

Nalod wrote:There was no player over 6'2 drafted last season.
We have centers with PG skills in this era.
Unicorns are a real thing now.

I love brunson but......He is 27. Next year he is still signed but has a player option for year 4.
But.....

Mike Bibby
Baron Davis
Marbury
Tiny archibald

Few that come to mind that peaked at our near age 28. Bibby reminds me a bit of JB. Strong kid with strong fundamentals. All these guys came in with high draft status and did reach all star status. JB was national player of the year but did not fit the mold of the modern player. He was a 4 year player, short but strong.
JB efforts and tenacity are incredible. Hard to not love him. But how long can he beat that body up? When a short players loses a step, like Kenny anderson and Brandon Jennings they can still be good, but not allstar good. In an era were money matters because you can't tie up with dead contracts, its a consideration.

What to do? Im not sure. I really enjoy this team were Randle and Brunson are a the peak of their powers. RJ is close, but still 23. Nobody, even RJ should be off the table. Im not saying to trade anyone but you don't turn away a crazy offering if it can set up a good run.
If im playing pretend GM I have to consider Brunson not at this level but perhaps a 15-17ppg guy longer term. What he wants, how he sees his career, and longevity is in his hands.

Brunson is the heart and soul of this team. But.......

I have no worries with Brunson for next 2 years under existing deal - I do however worry about us giving him a new deal with gigantic #s.

This kid has been more than any of us could have imagined and yes he is absolutely the heart and soul of this team. His mental toughness only matches Bernard King in my book but Jalen’s a significantly more impactful leader vs Bernard.

Sure sometimes I’d like to see a few more passes but at the same time I never sense Brunson is shooting selfishly but only because he thinks that’s what team needs.

I wish he were 6’5” and had the body of a young Jason Kidd but he doesn’t —- hard to tell how well he is going to age —- very tough call on the next contract but he is an elite bucket getter and leader —— those don’t show up in NY but once every decade or so.

Someone finally had the insight to what I was saying.........
Issue is not brunson, its the money on next contract and if team can't agree, when might one reconcile the future of it?
Don't have to be this year.
Can you extend a player if they don't opt out? Can't opt out until the season is over? Does anyone have the rules clear to how this works?
Can player opt in and then extend before the opt out/in window?
Brunson might do well for long term security and harmony with "Family". Lets be real, its nice to play for Uncle Thibby and be with Dad every day, starring at MSG making mega bag of money. At some point he will decline. He is not stupid, he knows the struggle to reach this level of respect and pay, and if a reasonable contract he can be part of a long term plan.
As it is, we are not winning a chip with this squad as constructed. Nalod never expected it this year either.
And don't see it in the future. Im not getting belligerent about it either, Team is succeeding more than not and our FO is not stupid. Its easy to criticize "WHY WON'T THEY GET A STAR"!!! Bulls winning 3 in a row without Lavine. That kind of star? "NO OF COURSE NOT, A REAL STAR I CAN'T NAME OR CONSTRUCT A TRADE FOR THAT LEAVES US TO CONTEND"......

I Love the grit and game of Brunson, but hope we don't build around him because little guys tumble and its not pretty when it happens. That he is a part of a bigger picture instead of the focal point to which he is now.. I'll leave it at that!

The problem with not offering JB a competitive contract is who will fill the void? More importantly, who will want to? I seriously doubt that Leon will move Brunson before his contract expires. Which brings up another issue.

To paraphrase a line from the movie "Wall Street", unless Rose has another Godson playing at an elite level in the NBA, we're going to have a tough time finding a quality replacement. Our bad luck attracting star FAs is well known.

I'd rather go all in with Brunson while he's under contract and in his prime. If we have a contender when contract time comes around, I'm confident Brunson will give Leon a "Godson discount"

Nalod wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

Nalod wrote:There was no player over 6'2 drafted last season.
We have centers with PG skills in this era.
Unicorns are a real thing now.

I love brunson but......He is 27. Next year he is still signed but has a player option for year 4.
But.....

Mike Bibby
Baron Davis
Marbury
Tiny archibald

Few that come to mind that peaked at our near age 28. Bibby reminds me a bit of JB. Strong kid with strong fundamentals. All these guys came in with high draft status and did reach all star status. JB was national player of the year but did not fit the mold of the modern player. He was a 4 year player, short but strong.
JB efforts and tenacity are incredible. Hard to not love him. But how long can he beat that body up? When a short players loses a step, like Kenny anderson and Brandon Jennings they can still be good, but not allstar good. In an era were money matters because you can't tie up with dead contracts, its a consideration.

What to do? Im not sure. I really enjoy this team were Randle and Brunson are a the peak of their powers. RJ is close, but still 23. Nobody, even RJ should be off the table. Im not saying to trade anyone but you don't turn away a crazy offering if it can set up a good run.
If im playing pretend GM I have to consider Brunson not at this level but perhaps a 15-17ppg guy longer term. What he wants, how he sees his career, and longevity is in his hands.

Brunson is the heart and soul of this team. But.......

I have no worries with Brunson for next 2 years under existing deal - I do however worry about us giving him a new deal with gigantic #s.

This kid has been more than any of us could have imagined and yes he is absolutely the heart and soul of this team. His mental toughness only matches Bernard King in my book but Jalen’s a significantly more impactful leader vs Bernard.

Sure sometimes I’d like to see a few more passes but at the same time I never sense Brunson is shooting selfishly but only because he thinks that’s what team needs.

I wish he were 6’5” and had the body of a young Jason Kidd but he doesn’t —- hard to tell how well he is going to age —- very tough call on the next contract but he is an elite bucket getter and leader —— those don’t show up in NY but once every decade or so.

Someone finally had the insight to what I was saying.........
Issue is not brunson, its the money on next contract and if team can't agree, when might one reconcile the future of it?
Don't have to be this year.
Can you extend a player if they don't opt out? Can't opt out until the season is over? Does anyone have the rules clear to how this works?
Can player opt in and then extend before the opt out/in window?
Brunson might do well for long term security and harmony with "Family". Lets be real, its nice to play for Uncle Thibby and be with Dad every day, starring at MSG making mega bag of money. At some point he will decline. He is not stupid, he knows the struggle to reach this level of respect and pay, and if a reasonable contract he can be part of a long term plan.
As it is, we are not winning a chip with this squad as constructed. Nalod never expected it this year either.
And don't see it in the future. Im not getting belligerent about it either, Team is succeeding more than not and our FO is not stupid. Its easy to criticize "WHY WON'T THEY GET A STAR"!!! Bulls winning 3 in a row without Lavine. That kind of star? "NO OF COURSE NOT, A REAL STAR I CAN'T NAME OR CONSTRUCT A TRADE FOR THAT LEAVES US TO CONTEND"......

I Love the grit and game of Brunson, but hope we don't build around him because little guys tumble and its not pretty when it happens. That he is a part of a bigger picture instead of the focal point to which he is now.. I'll leave it at that!

It's like you are saying this in a vacuum where medium and large guys don't tumble too?

It's the fate of every man and woman, at some point.

Brunson's game is not based off of athletisism, so he won't get as oft injured as someone like Ja Morant. Or Paul George/Kwahi Leanord. Or KP. Small, medium, large.

It's overblown. Everyone not built like LeBron.

You still have to sign them to massive contracts, cause that's what the market demands.

Brunson's contract is a non starter, he's getting maxed and has earned it.

nycericanguy wrote:Brunson's contract is a non starter, he's getting maxed and has earned it.

But.......

I have zero complaints about Brunson. Love the guy and waited all my life to have a PG like him. Of course he has some weaknesses like EVERY player but his strengths vastly outweigh any concerns defensively or whatever. He will also age fine and continue to get better. I see Brunson playing well into his mid 30s and at a high level. And to compare him to Mike Bibby is insulting and one of the dumbest things I've read on here this year.

SergioNYK wrote:I have zero complaints about Brunson. Love the guy and waited all my life to have a PG like him. Of course he has some weaknesses like EVERY player but his strengths vastly outweigh any concerns defensively or whatever.

What was encouraging for me about Brunson's future as a Knick PG, was his awareness that he was doing too much ball stopping early in the season. And started making more of a concerted effort to get this teammates involved to start the game.

You're right all players have holes in their game, except for a very select few over the last 80 years or so. But its the ones who recognize the flaws in their game and try to address them. Dont just pay lip service. Those are the players worth keeping.

SergioNYK wrote:I have zero complaints about Brunson. Love the guy and waited all my life to have a PG like him. Of course he has some weaknesses like EVERY player but his strengths vastly outweigh any concerns defensively or whatever. He will also age fine and continue to get better. I see Brunson playing well into his mid 30s and at a high level. And to compare him to Mike Bibby is insulting and one of the dumbest things I've read on here this year.

Awe. your nativity is sweet but your looking at from the 20 current game perspective and not the big picture.
My take is Brunson might have longevity if he dials it down a bit to that level.
Nobody does not like Jalen. I love the kid.
But funny they are both 6-2, not high flyers quick as cat guards, they are strong, and both dads played in NBA for a while as role players.
Thus far at same ages Mike was more accomplished. Jalen has surged past him.
But its naive to extrapolate present into the future.

Nalod wrote:

SergioNYK wrote:I have zero complaints about Brunson. Love the guy and waited all my life to have a PG like him. Of course he has some weaknesses like EVERY player but his strengths vastly outweigh any concerns defensively or whatever. He will also age fine and continue to get better. I see Brunson playing well into his mid 30s and at a high level. And to compare him to Mike Bibby is insulting and one of the dumbest things I've read on here this year.

Awe. your nativity is sweet but your looking at from the 20 current game perspective and not the big picture.
My take is Brunson might have longevity if he dials it down a bit to that level.
Nobody does not like Jalen. I love the kid.
But funny they are both 6-2, not high flyers quick as cat guards, they are strong, and both dads played in NBA for a while as role players.
Thus far at same ages Mike was more accomplished. Jalen has surged past him.
But its naive to extrapolate present into the future.

I want to start off by saying, Mike Bibby was a very good PG. Don't let the washed version that played with us paint the wrong picture. Not as good a scorer as JB, but a much better playmaker. Also, Bibby was very quick, with an excellent cross-over and first step. They both played at a controlled pace, but Bibby was less physical and a better run jump athlete. I don't see many similarities between the two to be honest.

Brunson is much more CP3 than he is Bibby. Obviously doesn't have the vision CP3 has, but both are elite in midrange, play a high IQ game and have great footwork. I see a bit of Lowry in him too.

CP3 and Lowry were elite up until 37/38. obviously you never know what can happen with injuries but there's nothing to suggest Brunson will have a short prime.

another guy with elite footwork and mid range shooting was Nash who was also elite til 38 ish.

martin wrote:

Panos wrote:The only "but" I have with him is that he should look to get other players more involved.

Same. Think he can get there too but it'll be another year or so.

He's not going to grow any taller, so he'll always have issues finding passing lanes over taller defenders, especially in the PnR when the opponent decides to double because they're not afraid of the roller (usually Mitch) catching a pass.

He'll become a better assist guy when we get him better teammates who can shoot. But i don't see a passing leap coming.

Shout out to Nalod for his bravery starting a Brunson thread. Brunson deserves all the praise, but he doesn't get a pass for any criticism. He's a shoot first undersized PG. It's not crazy to ask... "Is this the guy who will get us over the hump". You can be single, and fall in love with the next person in your life, but that doesn't mean that person is the one you'll marry. Knick fans have been looking for their PG for so long they are rushing to the altar with Brunson without considering there may be other options.

Just keep an open mind, and think long and hard before MAXING out guys who aren't best of class in their position.

This thread is why Knick fans can't have nice things.

When I first started watching the KNicks as a kid, I remember being so confused as to why so many fans had turned on Patrick Ewing, then it was Allan Houston... it doesn't take long.

Sambakick wrote:

martin wrote:

Panos wrote:The only "but" I have with him is that he should look to get other players more involved.

Same. Think he can get there too but it'll be another year or so.

He's not going to grow any taller, so he'll always have issues finding passing lanes over taller defenders, especially in the PnR when the opponent decides to double because they're not afraid of the roller (usually Mitch) catching a pass.

He'll become a better assist guy when we get him better teammates who can shoot. But i don't see a passing leap coming.

I don't personally buy into the height thing, lots and lots of short PGs out there could make enough passes and see guys.

For me it's just plain recognition of what passing options are there. Brunson can do a lot better. Even just by starting with Mitch and lob passes, that guy has an amazing range and you just need to put the ball up anywhere near the rim.

Some on Mitch too, he has to be better at recognizing the receiving end of things, he always doesn't look up or back when navigating the lane.

martin wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

martin wrote:

Panos wrote:The only "but" I have with him is that he should look to get other players more involved.

Same. Think he can get there too but it'll be another year or so.

He's not going to grow any taller, so he'll always have issues finding passing lanes over taller defenders, especially in the PnR when the opponent decides to double because they're not afraid of the roller (usually Mitch) catching a pass.

He'll become a better assist guy when we get him better teammates who can shoot. But i don't see a passing leap coming.

I don't personally buy into the height thing, lots and lots of short PGs out there could make enough passes and see guys.

For me it's just plain recognition of what passing options are there. Brunson can do a lot better. Even just by starting with Mitch and lob passes, that guy has an amazing range and you just need to put the ball up anywhere near the rim.

Some on Mitch too, he has to be better at recognizing the receiving end of things, he always doesn't look up or back when navigating the lane.

Fred Katz was kind of talking about this Brunson thing the other day - said doesn’t matter what position Brunson plays he is a SG not a point and he’s always been a SG regardless of his size/shape. Some could argue that point but fact is he comes out looking to score.

I think our problem is mostly we are too casual defensively lately and I do want to hear Mitch excuse because he had dropped off significantly the past 3-4 weeks and we got torched with Mitch on the court.

We aren’t bringing required intensity and for me with specifically Julius as a leader who only defends/rotates when mood strikes it’s surprising we’ve been as good most of the year. Not saying Brunson is a good debut at least the cat gives his body up 2-3 times a game on charges.

nycericanguy wrote:This thread is why Knick fans can't have nice things.

When I first started watching the KNicks as a kid, I remember being so confused as to why so many fans had turned on Patrick Ewing, then it was Allan Houston... it doesn't take long.

Are other fan bases like this? Is it a New York thing? I just don’t get it.

KnickDanger wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:This thread is why Knick fans can't have nice things.

When I first started watching the KNicks as a kid, I remember being so confused as to why so many fans had turned on Patrick Ewing, then it was Allan Houston... it doesn't take long.

Are other fan bases like this? Is it a New York thing? I just don’t get it.

It was the money.
I stated my concern is about maxing him and the potential. Some of you bought up good points that he could be like lowrey and longevity. Some just offended fanboys.
When ewings knees inhibited his ability but not a massive ego he was in the crosshairs of the media. When Allan got a massive pay raise and bad knees knicks FO was called out.

Im asking questions for discussion in an era where bad contracts are more destructive.

Nalod wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:This thread is why Knick fans can't have nice things.

When I first started watching the KNicks as a kid, I remember being so confused as to why so many fans had turned on Patrick Ewing, then it was Allan Houston... it doesn't take long.

Are other fan bases like this? Is it a New York thing? I just don’t get it.

It was the money.
I stated my concern is about maxing him and the potential. Some of you bought up good points that he could be like lowrey and longevity. Some just offended fanboys.
When ewings knees inhibited his ability but not a massive ego he was in the crosshairs of the media. When Allan got a massive pay raise and bad knees knicks FO was called out.

Im asking questions for discussion in an era where bad contracts are more destructive.

Ewing and Houston were in the crosshairs and bashed by Knicks fans even before their knees went. Not sure about other fanbases but NY tends to eat its own until a chip is achieved. Even then the fans will have short memories and turn on players quickly. I prefer Brunson simply be because he seems to have whatever the "it" factor is regarding a desire / internal drive to win. Mind you, he still needs a cast around him, but I think you pay guys like that rather than great looking athletes who might be missing something upstairs.

Brunson at max money or near makes for a compelling arguement.
I don’t think he can carry the team on his hairy shoulders as a top tier guy.
Few could, and when they cross 30 odds are they decline.
He puts forth great effort to his superior fundamentals to get the space he creates. My point is more that he is part of a bigger equation.
None of this is decided this season.
He has stepped it up but sustainable?
Fact is he is not carrying the team now. He is damn good and lovable. Im enjoying his play very much this year.
“But”? Not a decision. Its a converstaion.
Chemistry also matters. I don’t see IQ as a good back court partner until he can playmake and make life easier for JB. Thats why Grimes is so important. Good defense, and in theory be able to hit the shot when jalen draws a defender. Its why Klay was so important for Steph.

I hope JB is part of the long term but as lessor of a player than more. Not carry night in and night out. I don’t think its sustainable. BUt as a deadly sniper and creater when called upon.
Its important Thibs find a way to marry him with Randle and RJ this season. If not, I agree, one of those two might need to move on.
In their place? Too soon.

I’m sorry - what were we talking about?